The Kal Aaj Aur Kal of Secularism

hmmm...when mau mau and temporaloo agree on the same issue (albeit in different ways and possibly for different reasons), and the earth is still standing...then perhaps hope still exists. :)

temporal #56 You made me go back and re-read what you wrote, and it is still quite clear that you are condoning the concept of collective punishment upon a community. I dont think you are someone who ducks an issue (that is the specialty of scum like harimau), so I request that YOU now go back and re-read what I wrote and give it some thought before responding.

anNy #62 Actually chowk can take up a lot of time, I think. I just wasted a few minutes trying to explain to temporal why it is wrong to condone something that is a recognized criminal act. And this is Mr. t himself, not just any tom, dick or harimau.

harimau #60 Even if you were factually correct (which you are not, and I have proven you to be a liar on at least three occassions in the past on chowk when you attributed something to me and then, when challenged, could not back it up by any post from me), that would still not be a reason for calling for collective punishment of communities in India. Incidentally, calling me names (Mullah32) does not prove you are right either: it just proves the type of household you grew up in.
I will not be responding any more to your posts (unless I change my mind) since you are not worth wasting time with.

Harish
I agree with most of what you say.

``I understand by secularism an easy, even lighthearted patronising of other faiths``

Very often, but because religion is very in-your-face in India, quite often we get more involved in each others religious concerns than that. Apart from social occasions at festivals, as friend was pointing out, many of us have knelt in church or know word for word the prayers to a deity we maynot worship because we heard them over a PA system in the neighbourhood or in our schools or in the movies.

Then there is the large amount of public paraphernalia like processions and festivals which involve every religious community in its associated commerce and in things like special civic arrangements irrespective of whether its a feast of St Mary or the local Hindu diety.

For these reasons, IMO, an Indian of any religion is different from his coreligionists anywhere else.

And like you say ``Religion seems so entwined in our part of the world....that even being atheistic does not allow an individual to stay away from religion``


Thats what confuses the rediff and NDTV folk, I believe about where does communalism start and secularism end.

According to me secularism is the principle that other people have as much right to follow their own faith/religion as one has to follow one`s own.

Communalists are those who seek to curtail others rights to their own beliefs and who seek to impose on others their belief in the superior validity of their own(the communalists`) faith, beliefs or religion.

So how about those whose religious duty it is to convert. Thats a hard question. I always took it as, such people have to listen to temple music say everyday from 5.am, thats our religious imperative they have to cope with. So I have to say no to people persistently trying to convert me, that is their religious imperative that I have to cope with. When such efforts are individual, where else but India would it be normal for one to have friends trying to convert one who then give up and continue to be friends, as in my personal experience :). When these are large scale corporate/organisational efforts, thats where debate is needed.

Many social religious and political ideologies in India including casteism, evangelism, even Indian Marxism have been guilty of being communal as defined above.

``Once you have a debate, it somehow ends up being defined by the opponent`s points``

This is true of the tutu mai`n-mai`n rediff/NDTV Hindutva/ Cong/Marxists sort of debate. One side which considers itself `secularist` so thinks irreligiousness is a preeequisite of secularism and considers religion to be communalism. Their opponents consider secularism to be the debunking of religion, specifically Hinduism and consider being a communalist is a prerequisite of being unhypocritical and religious.

Moreover, for one side, secularism is what the Cong and Left parties profess and for their `secular` opponents secularism means simply opposing BJP. These debaters act as if these political parties, their ideologies and their historical venalities are the only relevant factors to define secularism in India and that the wider India, the Indian people and the Indian constitution are relevant only as dumb witnesses and blind followers, willing to suffer quietly in relief camps while these important folks settle the matter between themselves.

Various re: collective punishments ... apparently the economic boycott of the Muslim Community being urged by various outfits in Gujarat was inspired by the same logic. It punishes the innocent as well as the guilty - how does anyone tell who was in the mob and where they were from or where these lunatics in the temple came from. Even if you can whose job is it to stop them ? It is the job of the law inforcement agencies to prevent these incidents - if anyone should be fined it should be the police if they don`t do their job specially in cases where they have been clearly lax.

``I was thinking about this uncomfortable label. Secularist. I have not been comfortable with it.``(HN)

Now my friend -- just think how uncomfortable must Advani be feeling in that unwieldy Garment – must be feeling like tearing those Khaddhar Clothes and running -- naked free... free at last … free at last

gentlemen, exactly what is wrong with hanging out here during one`s vacations? i do..u say it like its a bad thing

Khamkhwa
All your various heads? Dude, I`m not a Hindu God.

tahmed #53 and khamkhwa #53:

please extend me the courtesy to read EVERY word that i have written in response to #47 quote...

ALL incidents...ALL victims...etc.

Ref Fuk`em Hakim #51
[Khamkhwa,
HaramiU has no wife and no life either. He admits to hanging around here when he`s on vacation. What a loser!]

Your reading comprehension is extremely poor but what can one expect from madrassah-educated individuals?

I said that I did NOT post during my vacation from June 15 thru July 14.

Do you get it this time at least?

Ref Khamkhwa #54
[You missed the point...it is applicable only `` if there is an attack on Hindus by Muslims....`` ]

That was cited as an example.

I have always been for equal punishment for all types of ill-mannered louts.

Having railed against Islamic thugs and their sympathizers for their one-sided application of rules, it would be hardly fitting for me to follow the same principles.

Ref temporal #52
[Am unsure if fines ONLY can alleviate such dastardly deeds. ]
Well, can`t hang them all!

[However, am all for this IF this is applied across the board to ALL such (religious/ethnic/racial) incidents AND benefits extended to victims AND their families.

And the fines levied should be proportionately increased to reflect replacement costs of property damage/income-wages lost etc.]
Absolutely. Hit them in their pocketbooks and there will be community action against those who are cooking up the violence. It is not as if the folks don`t know who is doing what and where. They are just afraid to speak out. Give them an incentive and there will be plenty of informers.

Ref Mullah32 #53
[temporal: I am surprised to see you approving of collective punishments. Such a suggestion is to be expected from a half-brained hindutva creep like harimau, but for you to approve it is very surprising. I hope you will give some thought to the logical conclusion of this line of thinking (which is no different than that of a terrorist), and why collective punishments are considered a war crime.]

We are not talking about taking out a bunch of folks and shooting them or bombing villages from the air (like you guys did in Balochistan and continue to do in FATA). Show them the economic consequences of harboring terrorists. You think these louts understand anything else?

temporal: I am surprised to see you approving of collective punishments. Such a suggestion is to be expected from a half-brained hindutva creep like harimau, but for you to approve it is very surprising. I hope you will give some thought to the logical conclusion of this line of thinking (which is no different than that of a terrorist), and why collective punishments are considered a war crime.

temporal-52

You missed the point...it is applicable only `` if there is an attack on Hindus by Muslims....``

DrDr - 51
As much as I despise Harimau,you and all your various heads come a very close second...f*ck off.