The Kal Aaj Aur Kal of Secularism

harimou,

who is this sangalik...whatever you keep refering to?!

First and foremost, please to accept a very shamefaced author`s apology for the shoddy copy that finally reached chowk. I think my anxiety while wrangling with chowk`s new technologically challenging pathways had something to do with it....and my misplaced password./...etc....all a long list of excuses for the undeniably shoddy work.

That some of my formalistic experiments...and a new chowk page that is insensitive to such subtleties has put me clearly in the dock....where I belong....:)

Some replies:

Pmishra2:

And here is a remark: wouldn`t it have been great if Jimmy had not felt he MUST perform Ganesh Puja? If he could just say - Budhayee ! Subh Ganesh Chaturthi ! and hand a ``social`` gift (I liked that !) and move on!


Actually that was NOT true. I do not know how to explain this...but just as each of us have aunties and grandparents who smother you with excessive if bullying love....like eat eat na....arrey iss umr mein to app pathhar bhi hajam kar jaoge types. Hiral`s mother, a pious and corpulant lady of much love and touching faith, just wanted to include Jimmy in the ritual...i did NOT...and no body else there did either....think that Jimmy was being armtwisted into paying obeisance to a foreign GOD...plus he did it with an amusement that he wore pretty unsubtly....if I might say...which just added to the truth of that entirely genuine tableau of secularism that I saw that night. Jimmy was NOT forced, coerced, or even emotionally blackmailed to do it....and I saw it too as a way he patronised Hiral`s mother....if at all.

Sadna,

Actually this entire piece was in response to the very same question that you ask. I understand by secularism an easy, even lighthearted patronising of other faiths...at best....much like Jimmy`s act. That is why it can be a habit. Once you have a debate, it somehow ends up being defined by the opponent`s points. I thought the same thing about these two opposing isms....rediff and NDTv ....ones....

``The point is a religion-laden secularism is also secularism and we are not quite done with it yet.``

Again this is what I too thought. Religion seems so entwined in our part of the world....that even being atheistic does not allow an individual to stay away from religion....unless he is locked into an airtight capsule with no interraction with the environment.

anarayan,

Precisely therefore on chowk. Its fun to bowl a googly sometimes...besides, there are some voices here that bring a genuine intelligent and sensitive perspective which is valubale...

Verghese,

I understand what you are saying. IN fact, I remember most public festivals to be like that...at least in the public space. There may be cussed old ladies being mean and rude to some of the ``others``...but on a regular basis that is what I often see. But perhaps, NOT officially stating that cannot be now addressed even as an idea worth discusssion...because the the new polarisation of the divide.

Dost-mitter,

I have started off with the profuse apology...please to partake and forgive...:)

I have said here earlier... Jimmy was NOT forced...as in forced...again....but he was patronising a loving but innocently bullying matron...out of affection and regard rather than...fear or even to dodge an embarrassment....

But yes, Garv....and Gaurav...I thought they were headed this way....now it sounds like I told you so....kind of a feeling...u know the fear of excessive noisy unthinking fanning of some somnolent pride...is so much of a double edged weapon....

Paksha Bandhan was a festival about tying rakhees that at least found a new lease of life...after Tagore revived it in Bengal....I thought...maybe somebody could shed more illuminating light on this....:)

Regards

HN

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Ref Hindu apologist #21
[I hope the Central government (not the stupid state government) cracks down hard and makes sure there are NO senseless murders in the guise of ``reprisals.`` This time the government will have no excuse of having been caught by ``surprise.`` No bloody riots must occur, the situation should be controlled, calm restored, and then issues should be solved slowly.
All this can only be done by the Central government. We can`t leave security entirely in the hands of local communalized police. I don`t know what the legal procedures for taking such actions are, but I very much hope the Central government does act hastily.]
Why don`t you offer yourself as a sacrificial bakra for the Islamist thugs before you advise how people ought to behave?
How about sending your sisters and brothers to be killed by Islamist thugs so that you can uphold secularism?

Ref friend #30
{dost-mittar #28 harish:
``Ganpati parade, on the other hand, was revived by Tilak a hundred years ago to galvanise the Hindu community with a distinct communal, rather than nationalist, fervour. ``
Dost, before you pass a judgement on Tilak`s motive, remember the period when it was started. Tilak`s only motive was to revive people through cultural activities...
[I did not like Jimmi being compelled to do the Puja rituals.
``Once religion becomes promiscuous, maybe it`ll become a non-cognizable offence....``]
I don`t look at Jimmy`s participation that way. I have been to Mosques & churches with my friends. Though I didn`t understood the meaning of the rituals, I had no issues repeating whatever they were doing (except eating the meat part). And most of my friends equally participated in Diwali and Holi gatherings (and visited temples with us - which I do only once in a year or two). Best holi I remember was led by a ``malayali catholic friend``, in Bihar, where we, a large group of bachelor engineers, just followed him around, repeating his malayali slogans. He was a pukka catholic otherwise.
Perhaps Jimmy would have been more offended if he reached his friend`s place and than is not invited to join the puja. Just by doing Puja, he didn`t become a hindu.
On a similar tone, I am in Japan this week and visited Shinto shrines. I do not become Shinto when I prayed in a shinto fashion. It was fun. and It was a clean way to identifying myself with the great sea of people around me.}
Let me relate a little incident in Tamil Nadu.
My niece got married recently in Chennai and we all went to visit her in-laws in Madurai because they had taken a vow to perform the wedding ceremony of Lord Sundareswara to Devi Meenakshi in the big temple in Madurai. My nephew`s classmate and best friend Javed, his wife Ayesha, daughter Afrin and infant son Mohammad (no prizes for guessing their religion) accompanied us. Since the temple had a sign saying `Hindus only beyond this point`, I was told the mother-in-law suggested to Ayesha that she might want to wear a bindi on her forehead so there will be no question as to her religion. In any event, after the ceremonious wedding of the god to the goddess, the priest went around handing holy ash (vibhuti) and kumkum (vermillion) to all present and Javed and family had no difficulty accepting it or applying them to their foreheads (including little Afrin`s and infant Mohammad`s). We certainly didn`t want Javed to feel left out of the ceremony when he expressly travelled 300 miles to participate and he certainly didn`t offend the priests` sensibilities by refusing the offering. We all then went around the entire temple and visited every shrine in the large temple complex.
If this is watering down Islam, then Jinnah was right in demanding Pakistan so that Islam could be safe from the kaffirs.
Note to Sangilikkaruppan: I am sure if there was a wedding in your family, you wouldn`t permit a Dali, let alone a Muslim, participate in a private family ceremony having only a remote connection to the wedding happening in a temple. Now, tell me once again how you are only following the lead of the brahmins in keeping the Dalits out of the temples and in beating them to death.

dost-mittar #28 harish:
``Ganpati parade, on the other hand, was revived by Tilak a hundred years ago to galvanise the Hindu community with a distinct communal, rather than nationalist, fervour. ``

Dost, before you pass a judgement on Tilak`s motive, remember the period when it was started. Tilak`s only motive was to revive people through cultural activities...

[I did not like Jimmi being compelled to do the Puja rituals.
``Once religion becomes promiscuous, maybe it`ll become a non-cognizable offence....``]

I don`t look at Jimmy`s participation that way. I have been to Mosques & churches with my friends. Though I didn`t understood the meaning of the rituals, I had no issues repeating whatever they were doing (except eating the meat part). And most of my friends equally participated in Diwali and Holi gatherings (and visited temples with us - which I do only once in a year or two). Best holi I remember was led by a ``malayali catholic friend``, in Bihar, where we, a large group of bachelor engineers, just followed him around, repeating his malayali slogans. He was a pukka catholic otherwise.

Perhaps Jimmy would have been more offended if he reached his friend`s place and than is not invited to join the puja. Just by doing Puja, he didn`t become a hindu.

On a similar tone, I am in Japan this week and visited Shinto shrines. I do not become Shinto when I prayed in a shinto fashion. It was fun. and It was a clean way to identifying myself with the great sea of people around me.

Well, after these elections pakis can say goodbye to their Kashmir aspirations. Ha ha ha ......

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About Gujurat temple: Coming conspiracy theories/justifications.

Modi stage managed it to galvanize the hindu support in the coming elections.

OR

Cyber Jihadis and liberals `understand` the retaliation against fundamentalist hindus.

I think first scenario will surface in few days and will `become` truth.

Prem #21
I agree ... this time around though the best thing going is President Kalam - he can REALLY make a difference ... by being the highly visible and respected face of Muslim India and can take their point of view to the Indian public - apparently he was at the temple recently during his Gujarat visit as President and hit it off with the chief priest.

injured 6 month old baby ... parents missing
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=10127

I hope the Central government (not the stupid state government) cracks down hard and makes sure there are NO senseless murders in the guise of ``reprisals.`` This time the government will have no excuse of having been caught by ``surprise.`` No bloody riots must occur, the situation should be controlled, calm restored, and then issues should be solved slowly.

All this can only be done by the Central government. We can`t leave security entirely in the hands of local communalized police. I don`t know what the legal procedures for taking such actions are, but I very much hope the Central government does act hastily.

Yes my friends religion is responsible for many deaths!
However, the secular wars of the the 18th to the 20th centrury, killed more people then 3 thousand years of religious conflicts!

This is excellent strategic thinking by India. Allies in the Middle-East will go a long way in silencing the BS from Musharraf at OIC meetings and at the UN. And certainly it bodes well for India`s oil supply lines. This is what Americans do well - ignore right and wrong and think self-interest. Good to see India finally learning. Saddam may be a madman, but he has never directly done harm to India -- no reason for India to poke its nose in his business now.

{Indian firms arming Iraq, says UK
RASHMEE Z AHMED

TIMES NEWS NETWORK
LONDON: Britain has alleged that Saddam Hussein’s Iraq is able and willing to deploy some of its deadliest weapons of mass destruction in under one hour from the order being given and that it possesses missile infrastructure produced with the illicit help of Indian companies.

The British claims of Indian involvement are contained in a 55-page dossier controversially and uniquely published by Tony Blair on Tuesday on the basis of what he called ``unprecedented and secret`` intelligence information.

The dossier, received by largely sceptical political, press and public opinion here, tries to make a case for a Gulf War II-type operation to disarm Saddam and ``regime change``.

Repeating US and UK claims that Baghdad continues to improve its missile capability, the dossier names names when it comes to alleged Indian support for Iraqi missile production.}

stuka

( Okay, the idiots who did this have to KNOW that this will lead to retaliation...)

Exactly... and the gurav yatra seems to bear fruit.Fear psychosis prevails and the secular hindus,good hindus,sitting on the fence hindus, have no
choice but to join the ``us`` versus them``. Very sad.

Godot,

Abe yaar..Go back to writing posts to 16 year olds ... Be careful but.. Lots of priests are getting arrested... Vaisai it is good that you have moved to Harp recently. Use protection but..

Your concerned yaar
ali