What is Islam?

dost-mittar,

Here is a quote from shankar #159 addressing sadna and the response from Tahmed #167.

If you were a man, I would have said ``you dont have your thumb up your butt...your ARM is in there--up to your elbows, at least..!``...but since youre a lady, I WONT say it...

shankar #159 You the man! (incidentally, I need to learn how to make that fancy smiley face you have discovered on this new, crappola format chowk.)

Introspection? humour??
Regards.

shankar #290
Apology accepted and I too am sincerely sorry if my comments were hurtful. Actually I generally agree with you more often than I disagree, including on this topic.

Dost-Mittar

Banjaara jee to mast-maula aadmi hain. And both of us can speak the same language(literally:-) ) although he can speak many more languages than me. The nick Banjaara completely suits him. Since he has a truly ``Banjaara`` spirit, he is far more neutral than most of us. His posts are always short and straight to the point, something that I prefer.

Prem & roohi,

OK OK, I stand corrected.

Sadnaji,

I SINCERELY apologise for crossing the line with you. I dont expect you to lessen your contempt for me, but I`m hoping that you will forgive my comments about you. Not for nothing, but when I`m rude, I dont intend to be malicious.

Shankar the bhayankar...that was a good one.

Friends, family, and foes, almost a year (may be longer) ago, I had advised a Pakistani friend - a genuinely decent and delightful person - to focus on the content of Shankar`s message, not its particular articulation (if that was bothersome to them). We Indians (in this case, us Hindus) need to adopt the same stance.

Having spanned the entire spectrum of social contexts, I am neither partial to nor repelled by any degree (or kind) of crude language. But I AM deeply offended by public rudeness to women. Such rudeness is unfair - women rarely have a chance to pay the offender back in the same coin.... And where there is no reciprocity, bigotry makes it home. Therefore, I sincerely wish Shankar was much much more careful in this matter.

Barring that, puhleez! let`s not be so sensitive about our religions. NO progress has ever been made by people who are profoundly ``respectful`` of their religions.

Total ``respect`` to one`s religion is moral and intellectual death, a deliberate murder of the self. If we are to have a living moral and intellectual framework, people - those without malice - MUST be allowed to question, criticize, blaspheme, poke fun at whatever they want to. If what they say doesn`t appeal to us, we are free to ignore them.

On this day, we may well want to remember Friedrich Nietzsche (thank you, Garrison Keillor). Christians of his time mustn`t have liked to hear his words. But today, much of the Christian West pays its respects to such giants. If Christianity is a great civilized religion today, it owes considerable gratitude to people like him. He wrote:

``I condemn Christianity. I bring against it the most terrible of accusations that ever an accuser put into words. It is to me the greatest of all imaginable corruptions.... It has left nothing untouched by its depravity. It has made a worthlessness out of every value, a lie out of every truth, a sin out of everything straightforward, healthy and honest. Let anyone dare to speak to me of its humanitarian blessings! To do away with pain and woe is contrary to its principles. It lives by pain and woe: it has created pain and woe in order to perpetuate itself. It invented the idea of original sin. It invented `the equality of souls before God` - that cover for all the rancour of the useless and base.... It has bred the art of self-violation - repugnance and contempt for all good and cleanly instincts.... Parasitism is its praxis. It combats all good red-blood, all love and all hope for life, with its anæmic ideal of holiness. It sets up `the other world` as a negation of every reality. The cross is the rallying post for a conspiracy against health, beauty, well-being, courage, intellect, benevolence - against life itself....

This eternal accusation I shall write upon all walls: I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity,... for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, mean! I call it the one immortal shame and blemish upon the human race!``


Shankar is no Nietzsche. But only those who show us our faults can help us grow.

Cheers.

anarayan #271

``Sadna`s typical response to questions of this kind have traditionally been to refer people to this book or that...and I`m glad traditions are being maintained!!!``

If you mean to say that I say `I am glad traditions are being maintained`, actually thats not what I said nor what I believe. In any case I have never been to a kriya/karam and know nothing about these things.

The two `wakes` I attended, inspite of the grief, one of the things debated by the bereaved in both cases was about how meaningful are the prescriptions for last rites because given the whole thing about karma, how can a person`s afterlife be determined by what rituals his mourners choose to do for him/her after he/she is no more?

And Kabir said (about ancestor worship not last rites, I think) that `you are so particular about feeding your parents` spirits long after they are dead, but you had no problem ill treating them in their old age when they were alive`.

That pretty much sums up my attitude towards both rules and rituals such as not eating cows and pitr puja and other rituals. Rituals and rules have meaning only if you are consistent and aren`t trying to compensate for your real deficiencies. If not rituals and rules are simply a cover for hypocrisy.

btw Kabir too mentions orifices. He says something like (sorry its not exact, can one of the many Kabir experts here please oblige) `you say you are a brahmin and something very special, so how come you were brought forth by the same route as a chandal` :)

friend,
#273

Your points are well taken. However, in your eagerness to treat me like a Bombay mawali, please understand that I have agreed that I should be treated like one:) I got no problem with that. I got no problem with any of you trying to cut my penis down to size either. Heck, I`ve said I richly deserve it, did`nt I?

Now if a Bombay mawali like me threw rotten tomatoes at people & then cried because people threw rotten tomatoes back at me, it would be a different story. But in the midst of all these flying rotten tomatoes, if I flip the bs in my religion & some hindus get mad at that; but conveniently blame my rotten tomatoes for the reason of their anger..then I will say a thing or two about it..

This is not a question of my ``ego``, ``popularity``, ``chamchagiri`` or ``immaturity``...its a question of all of us (hindus & muslims, alike) developing a thicker skin on Chowk & focussing on the bs in ourselves; rather than feeling good about the bs of the ``other`` side.

Over the last 3 yrs, my feeling is that we hindus (including me) have taken a great thrill dissing the ``other`` side...be it Islam or Pakistan; but when we get the taste of our own medicine--we howl with outrage. And when an uncouth brahmin like me makes us swollow our own medicine, its a lot easier to get angry at my boorishness, my ``self-hate``, my ``need to please the other side`` etc...than admit that our medicine, indeed, tastes very bitter.

Its also my observation that Pakistani muslims are more apt to be more introspective about the bs in their religion & country, than we Hindians (hindu Indians) are....but then, its just one person`s opinion...

Now, please feel free to throw more rotten tomatoes at me & trim my penis down to size....fortunately, I have a thick skin..I would RESPECTFULLY implore some of you Hindians to thicken your skins...until then; we might as well take Subroto`s advice & drop it...

#272 by tahmed32 reminds me of an old fable. Let me share that again -
A camel decided to get married. He decorated himself and started inviting all the animals. Animals came to the party. At last a donkey came and congratulated Camel. Oh Brother camel! you are looking really beautiful and handsome!! Camel was overcome with this praise. He responded, ``Brother Donkey! you too have a wonderful voice, please sing us a song``
----
Oh English literature ke gurus, remind me of english equivalent of ``ek thaili ke chatte batte.`` Is it ``birds of same ...``? I have forgotten the idioms taught by my Sinha sir ;-)

Now forgettting these silly analogies

``The fact that you said all this without any strong language will, I am sure, not suddenly switch these people into singing ``shankar maharaj ki jai hoi`` of course. They will simply ignore what you wrote, or else call you some names. But they wont have the ``rude, crude`` stick to use anymore. So let us sit back and watch how the turkeys react. `` ...

Lo jee, why won`t turkey react? Is it a bizli ka switch ke Shankar Maharaj switches off his vulgar posts and turkey`s are supposed to applaud him instantly. Basic civil behavior is expected from everyone and Shankar maharaj is no exception.

BTW, Ahmed mian, you were advised earlier, and again being politely advised, please stop dreaming of filling the shoes of bahmed. They are too big for you.

And like Subroto said, these letter typing consumes too much energy, and in this economy, I would prefer to keep my gainful employement and earn my $$, I will perhaps keep quite for a while.. But then.. who knows ;-)

Dear Shankar - I loved your post #93 ! Please never stop writing like that - people like Buddha and Nanak have said what you did in kinder words afterall. I was actually more put off by your joining the so serious and sermonizing Sadna bashers than anything you said about Hinduism - you`re not going to change the woman Shanks, any more than anyone is going to change you !! I liked her (solumn as usual, so what?) post #110 about your #93 too - where she had said the folksy myths and stories we grew up with do have the same philosophy as the Sanskrit classics - she`s right - after reading lots of stuff recently I find a blind begger in Bihar singing bhojpuri Bhajans knows as much as I do after reading this stuff. Which is not to say there isn`t crapola in Hinduism - there is a lot of narrowminded caste, customs and superstisions in there which is just harmful and nonsense and now all this ugly hatemongering hindutva stuff - I`d take your version anyday !! Anyway - got to go - have to finish making the ten-headed-ravan pinata for my kids to bash (good idea huh ?!) for this crapola thing called Dushehra ... it`s today, O irreverant one - a happy one to you too !!!

P.S. - Could you please give certain ``Monstahcow``s, ``Hindu``s and other sundry langots on certain other cybersites a taste of your wit instead of picking on sweet saddie ? ZAT is too nice to call them names ...

`cheap thrills` -- `cheap thrills`:-)

In the Turkish Hammam of self criticism -- not self aggrandizement -- called Chowk -- where everybody is naked -- some people INSIST taking showers fully clothed in holy garments -- while enjoying the unflattering view of others.

now THAT is called -- seeking `cheap thrills` :-)

Subroto #276 I had ignored Banjara`s note since (presumably in attempting to be clever) it did not provide the reader the courtesy of specifying who he meant with ``self-appointed chowk moderator``. As such, the letter deserves no attention and I had ignored it.
You refer to his letter to explain to me why I am applying a double standard in not condemning Shankar. I have written two posts explaining my views on this issue. Let me repeat again: What I consider offensive is the denigration of an entire community. A couple of pakistanis (Urstruly and Ali1) sometimes would ridicule hindus as a community, and I wrote posts protesting this behavior on their part. A number of Indian posters routinely ridicule pakistanis and/or muslims as a community, and I write posts protesting this behavior on their part. These protests (whether directed to Indian or Pakistani hate-mongerers) includes ridiculing the poster himself at times, and has not endeared me to these turkeys. I dont care.
Shankar DOES NOT fall in this category of hate mongerers. He is obviously comfortable with his Indian heritage, and secure enough to criticise it. You and a couple of other posters like dost mittar are offended by his language, and you have every right to be. But others I know are using this ``language issue`` to get back on him for daring to ridicule aspects of hindu rituals. At one time, harimau and Rsaxena (two of the less savory characters on chowk) would routinely ridicule shankar when he wrote anything criticising hinduism. Now it seems to be open-season with others jumping on the bandwagon.
Long note, and sorry to have to drag on this topic. But this I think is what happens when people ignore what someone is writing (as my earlier two posts have been ignored), and when they obviously have not yet learnt how to talk straight like a man (like banjaraa and satyavadi before him and their dark references to some unnamed poster).
I dont know if this clears

RE 260 by tahmed32
Sir aap phir meri baat nahi samjhe. I have heard and read far more colurful language so as to get embarassed by butt kissing expletives. My point was the double standard being applied here. Banjara sahib (#270) has articulated it well enough. Lets just drop the issue now as it is consuming far too much energy - I have never submitted so many posts on a discussion thread before - the inherent lazy person is me is unable to handle such a large amount of typing, as it is the scroll button works overtime these days.
End of story, khattam shudh, finito, sampla.....no more......
aaaggh runs screaming from the room....the men in white coats follow silently...

meanwhile in a small steak bar in Montana....

Banjara #270::

[[The self appointed Chowk moderator encourages the shrink because he gets a cheap thrill when hinduism gets dissed,just like some of the indian interactors do the jay-jaykaars of samir JB or solitude when they diss islam.I have no problem with either side of provocateurs,but I do have problems when an educated,grown up behaves like shankar has been behaving with sadna and getting away with it under the garb of introspection and freedom of speech. `Double standards` should be applied equally ]]

Shankar and the self appointed moderator(also the ex morality police and the deposed anti-chauvinist icon) HEAR HEAR!!!

Satyavadi

#269 Shankar:

You indulge yourself too much in believing that you flipped the Hindus (what about the non-Hindus, no comments for them?) because you wrote a few posts criticising Hinduism. Infact I am not sure if your gibberish could even be called crticism.

You and your self-proclaimed chamchas know why you got the responses you got. Its because of the filthy Bombay Mawali language, the utter lack of substance in your posts and your flagrant insults to a specific poster.

Its sad that I am writing all this to a person who is atleast 15 years my senior. But then as Banjara said, you need to grow up.

from Banjara #270:

[[[The self appointed Chowk moderator encourages the shrink because he gets a cheap thrill when hinduism gets dissed,just like some of the indian interactors do the jay-jaykaars of samir JB or solitude when they diss islam.I have no problem with either side of provocateurs,but I do have problems when an educated,grown up behaves like shankar has been behaving with sadna and getting away with it under the garb of introspection and freedom of speech. `Double standards` should be applied equally ]]]

Pennls god,
``We are faceless voices operating in the anonymity of cyberspace & what we think of each other does not affect our real lives in any shape or form. Our self esteem comes from what we think of ourselves-not from what others (esp Chowkies) think of us.``....

If you are doing only because of anonymity offered to you by cyberspace, you are more of a self centered moron than I thought you were.

You have all the rights to blasphame your religion or anything else. But if you want to play with filth while interacting, you must expect filth to be thrown your way. If you offer your butt, you must expect someone to fill all the holes (and make few more).

Perhaps you are under the impression that by eating beef you became somewhat unique or special. No sir, there are many others who eat beef (and pork, and frogs) and just do not care. Difference is that while you make it a point to make mockery of those who do not acknowledge greatness bestowed upon your pennls-ness by eating beef, many other don`t give damn about whether you eat beef or shlt.


``However, in your eagerness to throw dirt at me, could you ponder a few things? I mean.. feel free to kill the messenger, but at least dont ignore the message--disagree with it, but at least ponder upon it....``

Feel free to bring a message but do not expect everyone to accept you as messenger and do not insist that everyone takes your message. If you insist for acceptance as some divine all-important messenger, you will receive rotten tomatoes.

I certainyl do not expect a pea-brain like to you to learn this lesson easily. You will soon again start sticking your pennls everywhere try to be pennls- god and someone will again be tempted to cut that to size.