Ahmedabad. Sept 23, 2002

Reply Ustooly !13

Ustoolybai – you ar eliotle verbosity tau I did zara sah edit, ok? I am yourbug fan for lives! I thinkingbmy edit bringing your truemassage out more clearness, mashallah!

“I am a freedom and peace loving Pakistani Muslim and it might surprise you but I have best of intentions for your country as well. Like all humans I have some bad qualities too…I am a persistent little SOB…For these traits I am usually portrayed as a messenger of hate…but they are suffering from some kind of incurable Obsessive Compulsive Disorder of hate against Muslims and Pakistanis…what kind of shameless people are you. Why don’t you have moral courage to stand up for truth?…Lies, Lies, and Lies. Is this what the Hindus are all about? I have yet to see a decent Hindu…”

Whaty ouare thunk, haiN? Massage is more directly, no peacelove falanafalana bakwas.

Ok, salaaam!

oh - aaj kal Ia msoilign indulgance. Iamknow you will like!

Welcome! It was great to have the opportunity to read your work. Really hope to read more in the future...

Naive interactors on this list are missing Urstruly`s main point. His main point is that all hindus are naturally blood-thirsty, devious and genocidal. For him the ``correct`` hindu response to the Akshardham terrorism would have been a mass killing of indian muslims by extremist indians.

Our goverment, by providing law+order, careful media management and perhaps some aadha jhoot statements, avoided this disastrous and despicable outcome. This is the main source of Urstruly`s rage, all the rest of his ramblings are fluff. Once you understand this you will have glimpsed his true agenda.

This goes beyond hatred into deep shock :

See http://www.dawn.com/2002/10/15/ed.htm#3

The stats for India are much, much more optimistic,
the best I could find are

http://www.medindia.net/health_statistics/diseases/tetanus.asp

Pakistan, give up your obsession with India.
What justice is this a fight for ?

re: Urstruly # 16

From my interactions with many Indians, I see the dominant Indian view as follows:

There is a general feeling that Pakistan was unlikely to have been involved--at least not deeply--in this particular massacre. Most likely, the unfortunate, if horrific event, had local origins. Yet, most Indians saw it in the context of what had happened only recently, and decided that a proper resolution to the issues of co-existence is that we Indians--both Hindus and Muslims--do not perpetuate a senseless cycle of vindictive violence. The Central government did, this time, act with remarkable determination - a surprising development since we have our own Hindu supremacists as you have your Muslim supremacists.

This is the view of Indian people, not what various government functionaries might have said at various points in time. Similarly, Pakistan`s involvement does not mean the involvement of Pakistani government.

dost mitter

jhoot kay paoon nahi hotay.

Either you think that we dont watch ztv, doordarshan or read indian newspapers or we pakistanis are utterly chootya. As long as the attackers were holed up inside the mandir, the noble ``lies`` that Indian government was feeding its people, were that the attackers were Paksitanis nationals. But as soon as the attackers were neutralized the new set of lies was ``they attackers (not Paksitanis this time) belonged to some tehrik-e-kask (Gujrat based) who did all this to avenge the death of murered Muslims in the Gujrati genocide``.....Now could someone please tell me how on the God`s green earth this was going to save the lives of Gujrati Muslims. And when everyone knew that (as indicated by your posts) Indian government was telling lies to save people`s lives, then how this lie can be considered a detrent.

Re the government`s handling of Akshardham vs post-Godhra
A day after the temple attack, a cable news channel talked to a few women who are still in relief camps, those who had lost family and homes in the post-Godhra riots.

One of them said, we have also visited Akshardham, on Eid it was a custom to visit it and see the sights, we used to pay the 5 Rs entrance fee and visit it every Eid. We know the place and its very bad that such a thing has happened there, its not correct, etc.

After that point had been dealt with she said, look at the Dilli sarkar, at 5:30 in the evening the attack took place, immediately they sent commandos from Delhi, by 7:30 they were here and fighting the attackers. Then she began to shed tears `but when we and our families were being attacked and killed and our homes burnt for so many days continuously, where was the govt, tab kahan mar gayi thi sarkar?`. The grief and sense of betrayal felt by that woman was truly terrible to see.

Dear Mr./Ms. Leya Mathew

I am a freedom and peace loving Pakistani Muslim and it might surprise you but I have best of intentions for your country as well. Like all humans I have some bad qualities too. One of theses qualities is that I like to put people in tight corners when they claim to be on some kind of moral high ground; and second quality is that I am a persistent little SOB. So I think my question regarding Indian government`s stance on mandir attackers that they were Pakistanis AND Muslims was genuine – for the only reason that it involves my country.

For these traits I am usually portrayed as a messenger of hate. So a pattern has emerged among Hindu interlocutors at this board to ``counter`` my ``offence. The first tier of defenders usually come loaded with acerbic vitriol to assassinate my character. It is the first attempt to sideline the issue. When I try to concentrate on the topic at hand a second tier of Hindu defenders show up. This tier consists of two kinds of people – appeasers and counter-attackers. They usually obfuscate the issue by pointing out to similar problem in Pakistan and try to divert the topic of discussion. Now if I am still persistent the counter-attackers usually subside and replaced by a third tier of defenders who try to divert the issue towards international terrorism and Muslim involvement in it by posting links to the international newspapers; though this category has been subjected to a jootay baazi even from their own colleagues but they are suffering from some kind of incurable Obsessive Compulsive Disorder of hate against Muslims and Pakistanis; and at the same time the appeasers try to intimidate by telling that the Muslims in India will eventually suffer if this line of reasoning is continued.

Now, I want to know what kind of shameless people are you. Why don’t you have moral courage to stand up for truth? I want to know, who and how many people in India right now are questioning their government why it is feeding hate filled lies about Pakistan to its own people. Now this is great when I am told that these lies are noble and told with best of intentions – best intentions my ass. One billion people in this part of world are miserable because of these lies. The whole region is on the verge of nuclear holocaust because of these lies. Genocides are being committed against Muslims right now as we speak, because of these lies. 85,000 Muslim Kashmiris are dead because of these lies. Countless Kashmiri women have been raped by Indian soldiers because of these lies. When planes are hijacked your government lies. When disenfranchised oppressed people of your own country attack your parliament, the source of their misery, your country lies. Lies, Lies, and Lies. Is this what the Hindus are all about? I have yet to see a decent Hindu who has moral courage to stand up and say – this is wrong – the lies must stop – lies are hurting people. Where is that one single Hindu, the first raindrop who will dare to jump to quench the thirst of dry earth? Where is he?

re: stuka # 10

You are absolutely right about what the government of India did. But from what I can tell, few in India actually believe the government`s ``Pakistan connection`` version. Yet, the ``Pakistan-connection`` theory, widely ``known`` to be wrong, has been generally ``accepted`` as the truth because there is, despite all difficulties, a strong urge to live in peace with one another.

In moral terms, this creates an ambiguous situation. I guess, given the number of lives at stake, it is ok to do this on a rare occasion. But to blame another country for a problem that we know to be our own isn`t the way we should be going.

``Is it the selfassured confident bully in us ?or the pent up demonising hatred gradually built up in us .``

I would say the latter. Funnily enough, the existence of Pakistan has created more problems for Indian Muslims...the very constituency it was supposed to serve..

But, beyond that, the systematic demonising of Islam in India is also having an effect. Islam bashing is more acceptable today amongst Hindus then it was even 12 years ago at the height of Masjid/Mandir craze. It is way more acceptable than what it was in th 1970s AND 1980s.

Ofcourse, stupid Muslims never help their own cause either....India is in the news lately..why?? coz Jerry Falwell made some dumb remark on American TV, Muslims in Maharashtra gotta go burn some buses and die in police firing...WHY???

Hindus and Muslims gotta do some introspection...

Hindus gotta realize that Muslims are in India and they are not going anywhere. So yes, there may be historic grievances etc etc. but you have to live together. No choice. And if you have to live together, you might as well get along.

Muslims gotta realize, they gotta live in India...there has to some reason for entrenched goodwill for secularism to disappear amongst the majority community with nothing to show as gains for the minority community...if you have to agitate, make common cause on basis of humanity and do so for Roti, Kapda and Makaan...not some stupid Gora saying something in another land....

The Muslims of India got conned during the Khilafat movement and should have realized from their mistakes...if nothing else, they should learn from Pakis who fight Afghanistan`s wars and get thanks from nobody...fight your own battles, not the battle of some vague hazy millat..

``Are circumcised penises being used to established nationality and ethnicity? ``

Circumcised penises have always been used to identify Religion in the Indian sub-continent. Non Muslims are not circumcised. Ethnicity is a broadbased term. You and I are the same ethnic group, but different religions and nationalities.

So, to answer your question, yes. It is common practice to check the penis to ascertain religion. With regards to nationality, I have heard a rumor from a friend in the media in Delhi..the government was so desperate to prevent an outbreak of violence that it said the killers were Pakistani, to deflect the Gujju muslims from being targetted.

Personally, I see no ethical problem with that. If it takes a lie to save lives, that`s good.

Good article Leya. Good luck with your project. I am glad to see that there has been peace and good law and order in Ahmedabad after the killings in Akshardham.

On a more unpleasant note, I see hate mongers like Urstruly have also shown up here. Just to give you an indian context, you can think of him as a Pakistani equivalent of a Bajrang Dal hoodlum. You know, the kind of guy who hopes that through division and hatred he can quickly grab something and prosper. Or that he is avenging his communities ``honor`` by abuse and bizarre actions. So I wouldn`t worry about his ``questions`` (rantings?)!

I demand to know how was Indian government so sure about the ethnicity and nationality of mundir attackers when everyone was trying to figure out whether the attackers were 2, 3, or 4. Is it also true that the actaul attackers in fact got away or were let go in exchange for hostages. Because it does not make sense them committing suicide, as police claimed, without a mass murder of hostages. And why most people killed by Indian army and police etc. have their pants down when their footage is shown on TV. Could it be because other ethnic minorities are also up in arm against Hindu majority. Are circumcised penises being used to established nationality and ethnicity?

Dear Leya,

Would you think that a postscript is in order?

sincerely,

Veeresh

Leya as long as you, Ajay and other like minded people are there to chronicle whats happening in Gujrat it will ensure that this shameful campaign of terror against it own citizens will not go unreported. More power to you folks.

sad..poignant...:(