Hypocrisy Big

Hasanji,
``Iraq invaded Kuwait without any provocation to grab its oilfields and it was an INSANE CRIMINALL act of the first order -- ``

Iraq is led by a thug. The sooner he goes the better it will be for the iraqis. But to kill the iraqis to save them is indeed insanity.
Iraq invaded kuwait after a long-simmering dispute between the neighbors. Iraq accused kuwait of pumping oil from iraqi fields - an accusation even the then US ambassador to iraq would not contest.
So there`s a huge qualitative difference between what iraq did and what the US is now poised to do.
The empire is white man`s burden gone berserk.

re: faisuluno

{if this was 1857 would be writing nonsensical pieces on chowk criticizing indians for rising up against the redcoats. }

...yeah, and if this was 1357 yo cowardly ass would be bent over backwards for the invaders` conversion sword...

argjun_m #11

Man you should read what others are writing before bringing your
own preconceived ideas into the discussion.

And from the pearls of Indian Democracy this is a must read
today for CHOWK readers on Rediff (and let us not give George W.
new ideas) at:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/18praful.htm

Ras

dr mr stuka:

the usual gang of idiots i was referring is not the author. instead i was referring to people like you, who if this was 1857 would be writing nonsensical pieces on chowk criticizing indians for rising up against the redcoats.

Romair:

``I think one should oppose or support policies, not based on whom they are directed against (religion, country etc.). I think one should do so based on how humane or inhumane the policies happen to be. ``

Um, I`m glad you are not responsible for the foreign policies of the two countries that I care about. :)

One should support self interest above all. That means supporting allied nations who support your policies. Honestly, I think Indians and Pakistanis operate at different levels. Isn`t there a well known saying...``there are no permanent friends and enemies in statecraft, only permanent interests``

Romair, my friend, if there is one thing you can learn from the Palestenians it is this...there is no existence worse than one without a country...therefore, if you consider yourself American make sure that you worry about America first and last...and if you are Pakistani, make sure your primary loyalty is to your Pakistan first and last...when it comes to the crunch, neither the Afghans nor the Palestenians nor any other group give two figs about you...

I say this not out of malice but as my honest opinion. That is why these ``Blame America First`` people scare me...they may sacrifice fellow Americans for some theoretical ``citizens of the world `` cause..

``The US has been quite unfair to countries like Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan etc., however. ``

Let us examine these countries:

Iran: Violated international law by scaling the walls of the American embassy. (nobody talks about that violation) Held American hostages for 440 days. Sponsored bombing of American Marine barracks in Lebanon killing over 100 Marines. Supported, financially and militarily, terrorist group called Hezbollah.

Iraq: Invaded American ally. Refused to vacate until subject to hostilities. Agreed to UN resolutions as conditions for ending war. Openly flouted resolutions.

Sudan: Gave sanctuary to Islamic millitants. I will concede the point that the bombing may have been unjustified. No lay person has factual information on this.

Afghanistan: The ruling government, the Taliban, gave sanctuary to Al Qaeda. Terrorists wanted by the United States were present in Afghanistan with the support of the ruling government.

Please tell, in which particular case military action was not justified.

In previous post, I should have mentioned that the American bombing of Taliban was supported by a large nymber of Afghans themselves.

``Before our Indian US foreign policy lovers get too defensive, they should keep in mind that the Union Carbide tragedy in India killed thousands, and the Americans involved are walking free as a bird ``

Dude, who should I blame for that??? If our system was defective, we are to be blamed..no one else...


Adnan:

``When the Soviet Union was an empire, India hung to its coattails and enjoyed the ride.``

India was literally pushed into Soviet arms by the Americans. After independence, India`s Nehru touted Non Aligned Movement while Pakistan signed up for SEATO and CENTO (originally Baghdad Pact).
Pakistan made it`s choice way before India.


``Now, when Bush considers India a ``strategic and natural partner`` and Bill Gates wants to fight the AIDS epidemic in the country and Oracle wants to build more offices in Bangalore, Indians have no moral qualms about the imperalistic tendencies of the Bush administration.``

I hope to god we do not have those moral qualms. Unfortunately enough Babus in South Block still have a 60s and 70S SOCIALIST hangover. Hopefully they will be put to pasture before they can do much more harm. The United States is a super=power, that is a reality. If India can advance it`s national interest by aligning with the US, what could be better than that? As Deng said, it does not matter what color the cat is, as long as it catches mice.

`` wish Pakistanis will take a page out of this wonderful book on self-interest written by the Indians. It works, it puts food on the tables of the poor and the hungry. Alas, we always drown ourselves trying to go against the flow. The banyaa (and I say this with the utmost respect) mentality is the winning strategy, let`s face it! ``

You are the second Pakistani to express these sentiments. The first was Khaled Ahmed of the Daily Times.

Faisaluno

``the usual gang of idiots blaming pakistan for everything under the sun. surprised not to have seen any posts linking pakistani army to the economic crises in argentina. ``

Um, no..actually if happen to READ the article, you may notice it is one of your idiots blaming the Americans for all that is wrong with this world.

Dear Mr. Haroon Moghul (Merciful Spokeman for Muslims worldwide),

Shouldn`t you apply Voltaire`s wise words to Iraq among others? Why should the ``benevolent`` government of Saddam Hussein be exempt?

On the subject of being watcheful for abuse, Voltaire also warned against religious leaders. Should muslims question the ``Unquestionable`` words of God. Did Mohammed want to conquer Mecca for his own trading company? Was his war any really holier than others? Did he and his followers have a hidden agenda? Should muslims allow thoughts like these and others to be be freely and openly discussed. Should anyone who reaches any conclusions be free from persecution?

Yes, we Americans should and do question Vietnam, the Gulf War, and the War against Terrorism. This is about being American. Do you question the Jihad, the conquests that followed, and the exclusion of non-muslims from certains ``Holy`` lands.

We know you are merciful (I`ll take your word for it). The question is are you a hypocrite? Do you as a muslim question the wars that muslims (Allah and Mohammed included) waged just as you ask Americans to question the wars that America wages.

An inconsequential particle

PS

Here`s another of the Voltaire`s quotes: ``I do not agree with what you have to say, but I`ll defend to the death your right to say it.``

Bush the Junior is a Liar and a hypocrite -- Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 -- invasion of Iraq is totally unnecessary and uncalled for -- it has not attacked US -- it has no means or weaponry to attack the United States -- not now -- neither in foreseeable future it will ever acquire the capacity -- that is pure bunk and a white LIE spread by those two draft dodgers-war mongers -- Rumsfield and Cheney.

Iraq invaded Kuwait without any provocation to grab its oilfields and it was an INSANE CRIMINALL act of the first order --

NOW -- the Texas oil man is about to invade Iraq to grab Iraqis oilfields -- without any provocation -- and that will also be an act of an INSANE CRIMINAL -- pure and simple -- no difference --

equality of criminality... whether muslim or christian -- whether a third world ghulam or an American Sahib....

Aik hi suf meiN kharey hogaye Mahmood-o Ayaz...

re: adnan

{That`s what I said, no? Your opposition in this matter is based on self-interest, not on some vague, suicidal and outdated moral value. }

...well, even if the economy was doing well, i believe it is better to figure out a way to assassinate saddam and defang his army than to run around dropping bombs...american soldiers die, iraqi civilians die, more terrorists are born..it`s just not good for anyone...

saminasha #24 ``Urstruly is going to submit an article. ``
What a scary thought!!

Can anyone else feel it?

Urstruly is going to submit an article.

Anyday now...

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I think one should oppose or support policies, not based on whom they are directed against (religion, country etc.). I think one should do so based on how humane or inhumane the policies happen to be. If a Hindu kills an innocent Muslim, oppose the Hindu. If a Muslim kills an innocent Hindu, oppose the Muslim.

So, I oppose many of the US foreign policies, not because, at the moment, they seem to be targeting Muslim countries (I have a huge number of American friends, and hardly any Arab friends), but because they are inhumane. Getting killed by a car bomb planted by a civilian or by a laser guided bomb fired by an F-16 should both be considered terrorism.

The US, on the whole, has been alright with Pakistan, if you ask me. It hasn`t helped greatly, but it hasn`t harmed much either (perhaps it is because we are not directly involved in the Israel conflict). So I think as Pakistanis, we cannot really complain much.

The US has been quite unfair to countries like Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan etc., however. To the best of my knowledge, none of these countries have dropped a single bomb on the US. Yet the US has directly or indirectly tried to kick the sh//t out of these countries.

There seems to be a direct link between a country`s relations with Israel and with the US. The easiest way to have good relations with the US for Pakistan would be to have good relations with Israel. I, personally think Pakistan should recognize Israel, while simultaneously opposing its inhumane policies against Palestinians. India and US have killed more Muslims than Israel, and we recognize them. If we recognize India (a country that just piled up 1 million soldiers on our borders) than what is wrong with recognizing Israel? Israel would be more than happy to be accepted by the only Muslim country that has nukes.

Egypt, Morroco, and Jordan (all Arabs) recognize Israel. And how many of these Arab countries came to Pakistan`s assistance when India was looking for an opportunity to attack Pakistan this year? Infact, Palestinians actually sent a delegation to Vajpayee. I have never heard Yasir Arafat or Saddam Hussein speak out for Pakistan, for Kashmir, or any other issue. At a govt. level, Saudis do help us a great deal, but their populations consider all South Asians third rate people (I agree with what Adnan stated in his reply).

Pakistanis should oppose inhumane policies of any country, including their own and the USA. But I don`t think Pakistan should put its future on the line for any country (read Arabs), if they are unwilling to put their future on the line, for us.

In any case, I see a lot of damage ahead for certain countries (Iraq, Iran, maybe Syria, Korea) through attacks by the USA. This is exactly what Al-Qaeda wants. Osama on one side, and Bush on the other, each with his, ``Either you are with us or against us`` mottos. I hope they don`t crush the rest of the world in between them.