Hypocrisy Big

re: karokaram

{Don`t you think India and Pakistan should talk ? }

....no...there is nothing to talk about....pakistani govt wants india to effectively hand kashmir over...there is no govt in india which can ever deliver that...and musharraf would rather start a nuke war than ever accept compromise (i.e. turning the LoC into the border)...i bet even you`re twitching right now saying ``that is not a compromise``....

...what is there to discuss?...

Karakoram:

I have read your post, and will read it again as well. Don`t get me wrong. I do see your point, esp about the fact that it is a slippery slope. On the other hand, I read about the usage of Contras in Punjab by KPS Gill, and the obvious success there, and I am in two minds.

I do not put myself on a moral pedestal, but I do feel that if the lives of security forces (who, to me are very much human beings and not cannon fodder) can be saved by putting contras as first line of defense, that does not seem like a bad idea...

The most disturbing thing about your post is that when I read about that doctor claiming to an eye-witness, without a second thought, I wondered..``why the hell does the police not bump that idiot off`` ...this was not conscious evolution of thinking...just a random thought...but then when I saw the same thing in your post, it kinda made me realize that there is no end to dehumanizing people who are obstacles.

Anyways, thank you for providing fodder for thought...

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Can we please come back to the topic at hand. You see, the India and Pakistan bit has been done to death multiple times, and we will continue bickering about Kashmir long after Saddam is dead and Iraq is a pro-American democracy.

The current South Asian perspective on US foreign policy is more important to discuss. I use the word South Asian because this is the first time on Chowk that RSaxena has taken a position which has more in common with Pakistan than with US.

Why are you all under the thrall of Saddam? Do you not feel like Chamberlains, bowing and scraping before Hitler?

In his time, Churchill was ridiculed by the Brits as being a war-monger, when he advocated war against Nazi Germany after the annexation of Sudetanland. Yet , he was prophetically proved right about Hitler in 1939.

Why do you want Saddam to be in a similar position?

This just in:
Bihar police finally got hold of a mosquito who was allegedly spreading malaria in the eastern part of the province. The government remains convinced that the mosquito is an ISI agent, due to the fact that his buzz sounded very much like Urdu to some biharis. The local police inspector, Jay Arjun, lamented the fact that the bullets provided to them were too big and advanced to kill a mosquito, otherwise he would have surely killed the bastard like all the others in the past. Authorities were at a loss to explain a question posed by a journalist as to how an insect as small as a mosquito can single-handedly terrorize and infect a country as huge and brave as India. They remain adamant that it has nothing to do with incompetency, instead, focus remains on the ``evil`` nature of mosquitoes vs the righteousness of Indians.

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stuka,
Counter insurgents are non military, non security personnel who are supported by the government to commit acts of violence that the Indian govt. itself cannot do without committing human rights violations and without following the due process of the law. They are just like militants and terrorists, except that they are on the Indian side, for now that is. Ask us Pakistanis, we know. Pakistan got terrorists to do their dirty work and they got out of hand. By the very nature of their role, these people are not answerable to anyone, except the intelligence agencies. They are criminals who are above the law.

There was a report during the end of the Afghan war, which talked about Indians buying Pakistani prisoners from Afghan jails for future `usage`. I laughed it off as Pakistani paranoia at the time. It makes sense now.

Stuka bhaisaab, the slope for deviousness is slippery, you start with one crime and next thing you know, you`ll be agreeing to having the witness Dr. Krishna (Indian and a Hindu) being silenced forever for the greater good. I hope you get my point.

Also, do you believe that your government can do no wrong ? Don`t you think its better if you have terrorists alive to use them for your publicity stunts, and then convict them (like Aimal Kasi was in the US) ?
Are you not curious as to why this encounter was done ? What if what I said is right and that India staged this encounter so as to have a reason not to talk to Pakistan. Don`t you think India and Pakistan should talk ?

The article`s link posted by Ras talked about thousands of extra-judicial killings across India. Aren`t you worried about whats going on and whether innocents (non-Pakistanis too) are getting killed ?

zara sooncho bhaisaab.

re: einsteinwallah

{It is not as easy as you make it sound. }

...maybe temporal has been practicing houdini stunts and it is easy...the russians should`ve called him in that opera house incident...he would`ve swooped in like houdini and flown off with the terrorists to the nearest prison, with neither any hostages nor terrorists being killed...

semipreciousme #90 Couldnt have put it better myself.

stuka:

...bayghariat=shameless...coming from urstruly you should be flattered...:)

Karakoram:

``I as an individual do not support or defend Pakistan sending terrorists to India and proclaim as much so. But you as individuals don`t have the integrity to do the same when it comes to the Indian government`s stage managed encounters or support for counter insurgents. Meray khyaal may meray may thoRee sharam hai, aap may tau itnee bhee nahi. ``

Bhai, even I as an individual do not support or defend India sending terrorists to Pakistan and proclaim as much so. But, I as an individual do support the Indian government`s stage managed encounters of terrorists from foreign lands and also support counter insurgency operations if they are limited to my own country.

Out of curiosity, where do I stand in your estimation.

ps: Not being sarcastic here, just explaining my world view, and ask for your input.

sadna #88 ``I suggest Pakistanis complaining about Indian procedure should campaign in Pakistan for the prosecution of the IA-hijackers whose photos and names were published in the Indian press and handed over as Interpol red notices to the Pakistani government. ``
I agree here. I think by allowing these known criminals to roam freely in Pakistan, the government is not only doing the wrong thing it is also creating future problems for Pakistan as well. And in some ways that future is now, with maulvi fazloo strutting like a buffalo in the parliament. The resolution in favor a professed murderer (Kasi) in the national assembly is a bad omen for Pakistan. Sadly, this act seems good for the military government, with the US Tresury Secretary (no less!) being rushed to Islamabad to pour money and forgive debts, since now the military government smells like roses compared to the alternative it has helped put in the parliament.
Of course, with these extremists in the parliament bring Pakistan to the same low level where India has been all along... this last part is my tongue-in-cheek contribution to this India-Pak slugfest that Stuka rightly complained about before tossing a sample one himself. :-)

Urstruly:

this bayghairat hindu stuka also accused me once of being anti-ahmadi,

What does bayghariat mean?

#51 by temporal on November 19, 2002 7:01am PT

[…is there a judicial or internal/external/civilian mechanism to examine the validity of the claims of those killed in police encounters… ]

That is what NHRC is all about. Although I am sure one can also complain to someone higher up in heirarchy. If nothing works journalism is last recourse. Depending on credibility of the journalist this may get attention of court if nobody else. It is also posible for an Indian to write a simple letter to a judge and get an issue investigated.

[..otherwise this encounters merely suggests state terrorism as implied by praful…and not ``defending`` the right of ``Pakistanis by many accounts`` as suggested by many... ]

I disagree. Only a method of state terrorism is used to fight what is obviously a war. If there was information that these people were Pakistanis then it becomes a war. Killings may been done after reviewing big picture. India is democracy. That does not mean there would not be state secrets and no covert action. My feeling is killings were supposed to been seen. The threats against the witness may be just charade. Who knows? I doubt truth will ever come out.

[…on a related note…i wonder often why in well publicized cases these perpetrators are invariably killed …very rarely are they taken prisoner…if they were then the investigations can pin point more accurately to the perpetrator’s identity, handlers, movement and the collusion or carelessness of various local, state and federal agencies/authorities whose manifest job it is to monitor and keep abreast of such developments… ]

It is not as easy as you make it sound.

-einsteinwallah

khamkhwa #83
``How do you know the guys killed at ansal plaza and the Akshardham temple were Pakistani..cos your police say so? ``

I didnot say `the guys who were killed at Akshardham` were Pakistanis.

Before they were killed, they had killed 34 people and later killed 3 security personnel(incidentally one of those security personnel happens to have been a Muslim). During the 14 hr standoff 100 people were locked up inside the temple who couldnot come out until it was over. Now what is your point ?

As for the Ansal Plaza, I donot know they were Pakistanis, thats why I support every demand for a formal explanation from the police( which had even put out names and addresses of Pakistanis). If it turns out those killed were innocent, I will of course condemn it.

If it turns out they were Pakistanis who had entered the country, were planning attacks and had been decoyed there with police connivance by a colleague who had been arrested earlier(the story I read somewhere), except for complaining about police endangering the public for political mileage, I will find it hard to press for due process and procedure.

And exactly why do I owe you an explanation? I suggest Pakistanis complaining about Indian procedure should campaign in Pakistan for the prosecution of the IA-hijackers whose photos and names were published in the Indian press and handed over as Interpol red notices to the Pakistani government. Until such a prosecution takes place, they should show some shame while questioning Indian procedures.

arjun_m:


``If the flyers said ``Bomb India``, you and your paki buddies would be at the head of the line cherring dubya on...``


...wrong, kiddo...not all of us `pakis` think as repugnantly as you do...