Hypocrisy Big

Romair:

``I think one should oppose or support policies, not based on whom they are directed against (religion, country etc.). I think one should do so based on how humane or inhumane the policies happen to be. ``

Um, I`m glad you are not responsible for the foreign policies of the two countries that I care about. :)

One should support self interest above all. That means supporting allied nations who support your policies. Honestly, I think Indians and Pakistanis operate at different levels. Isn`t there a well known saying...``there are no permanent friends and enemies in statecraft, only permanent interests``

Romair, my friend, if there is one thing you can learn from the Palestenians it is this...there is no existence worse than one without a country...therefore, if you consider yourself American make sure that you worry about America first and last...and if you are Pakistani, make sure your primary loyalty is to your Pakistan first and last...when it comes to the crunch, neither the Afghans nor the Palestenians nor any other group give two figs about you...

I say this not out of malice but as my honest opinion. That is why these ``Blame America First`` people scare me...they may sacrifice fellow Americans for some theoretical ``citizens of the world `` cause..

dr mr stuka:

the usual gang of idiots i was referring is not the author. instead i was referring to people like you, who if this was 1857 would be writing nonsensical pieces on chowk criticizing indians for rising up against the redcoats.

argjun_m #11

Man you should read what others are writing before bringing your
own preconceived ideas into the discussion.

And from the pearls of Indian Democracy this is a must read
today for CHOWK readers on Rediff (and let us not give George W.
new ideas) at:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/18praful.htm

Ras

re: faisuluno

{if this was 1857 would be writing nonsensical pieces on chowk criticizing indians for rising up against the redcoats. }

...yeah, and if this was 1357 yo cowardly ass would be bent over backwards for the invaders` conversion sword...

Hasanji,
``Iraq invaded Kuwait without any provocation to grab its oilfields and it was an INSANE CRIMINALL act of the first order -- ``

Iraq is led by a thug. The sooner he goes the better it will be for the iraqis. But to kill the iraqis to save them is indeed insanity.
Iraq invaded kuwait after a long-simmering dispute between the neighbors. Iraq accused kuwait of pumping oil from iraqi fields - an accusation even the then US ambassador to iraq would not contest.
So there`s a huge qualitative difference between what iraq did and what the US is now poised to do.
The empire is white man`s burden gone berserk.

Following are must reads in my opinion:

1) US attorney general Ramsey Clark`s report on what the US has done to Iraq (http://www.iacenter.org/rc12600.htm)

Some excerpts:

``A delegation of U.S. citizens from twenty states has just returned from Iraq. On January 17, we observed in Baghdad the 9th Anniversary of the beginning of the January 17 - February 28, 1991. U. aircraft flew 110,000 aerial sorties against Iraq, averaging one every 30 seconds, dropping 88,500 tons of explosives, the equivalent of 7 l/2 Hiroshima bombs.

This was by far the most intensive bombardment in history. It killed tens of thousands of people, injuring many more. Medicines and medical supplies were exhausted. It devastated water systems from reservoir, pumping station, pipeline, filtration plant to kitchen faucet as well as urban sewage and sanitation systems nationwide. Food production, processing, storage, distribution, and marketing facilities were widely destroyed. Poultry was nearly wiped out by loss of electricity and lack of grain. Animal herds were decimated......

I have traveled to and within Iraq ten times since sanctions were imposed, once during the bombing in 1991. Each year, the death rate has risen radically. The numbers of deaths have been reported internationally regularly and updated each month since 1991. In Iraq, they are palpable.....

The annual number of deaths of children under age five grew more than tenfold from 1989 to 1999. Total deaths of children under age five from these selected causes alone during 1990 to November 1999 is 502,492.``
(Clark, Ramsey)

2. Following are some excerpts on the US attack on Sudan pharmeceutical plant (of Monica missiles fame), from Noam Chomsky`s work titled, ``9/11``: (http://www.infinitejustus.com/chomsky_on_sudan_bombing.html)

``A year after the attack ``without the lifesaving medicine [the destroyed facilities] produced, Sudan`s death toll from the bombing has continued, quietly, to rise... Thus, tens of thousands of people -- many of them children -- have suffered and died from malaria, tuberculosis, and other treatable diseases... [The factory] provided affordable medicine for humans and all the locally available veterinary medicine in Sudan. It produced 90 percent of Sudan`s major pharmaceutical products... Sanctions against Sudan make it impossible to import adequate amounts of medicines required to cover the serious gap left by the plant`s destruction....`` (Chomsky, Noam)

There is an interesting pyschological quality I have seen in people who are brainwashed into supporting there own govts.` under all costs - they completely close their eyes to facts and logic and become cheerleaders for the deaths of innocents. Soon this feeling turns into a habit and then turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. They want their govt. to kill and their govt. wants them to support their killings, and the snowball gets bigger and bigger. I have spent a lot of time studying this in regard to Kashmir and the attitude of otherwise decent Indians to the killings of innocents there (not to bring Kashmir into this article, but that is one phenomenon I am very familiar with). Since then I have tried to study other similar areas, and am now seeing the identical attitude amongst otherwise decent Americans. They are in a state of denial over how many innocent people their govt. (through their support) kills.

Is it a coincidence that people who point out and highlight such atrocities rarely, if ever, get any facetime on the TV channels of the countries that are committing the crimes? Is it also a coincidence that the US is one of the few countries that opposes the International Criminal Court?

dear saxena:

guess what, it is 2002 and you guys atill drink cowpiss.

Reality Check,

Many believe that one religion is the root cause of terrorism. The media is full of it, war on iraq is part of the global concensus to contain this.

One of the ways muslims across the world are trying to fight this swell of opinion is by articles like this, trying to portray that US and other countries are equally bad. It is very unlikely that this approach is going to change the emerging world view. The reason is simple, contained in romairs post 23.

`` If a Muslim kills an innocent Hindu, oppose the Muslim.``, romair has so succinctly put the very foundation of the growing terrorism. The idea is that a muslim can kill a non-innocent hindu, the cardinal priciple that it is up to individuals to decide who is and who is not innocemnt and kill. It is this delegation right to kill to individual discretions that forms the core of terrorism.

romair an educated man cannot accept the premise that killing task has to be delegated to the society at large, to some due processes to identify who is and who is not innocent.

Here is the undeniable proof that what one learns early in the womb cannot be altered by education and exposures to other values. The notion individual performing the task of the jury and the executioner is the core of present day terrorism.

May be it is time that the muslims look at this core value which even years of education have faile to alter. That would be far more effective and useful than articles like this

#37 by Ras
//..And from the pearls of Indian Democracy this is a must read
today for CHOWK readers on Rediff -
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/18praful.htm ..//

Praful Bidwai and Kuldip Nayar ( a Member of Parliament, I think ) have questioned the cops` version of the events ( two terrorists were killed in a posh New Delhi plaza on Diwali ). They believe that the cops stage-managed the incident and hence they have taken the case to the independent NHRC for a separate review. The case is still pending with the both the authorities.

Now - that`s how democracy was supposed to function - isn`t it ? If you don`t believe that the gov`t of the day is doing the right thing - you raise a stink and seek to trigger the in-built ``checks and balance`` system and hope to find out what exactly happened.

Now - what is your point? You seem to just hate India and its democracy. If you really want to rubbish Indian democracy then there are no lack of material for you to choose from. But this is not one of them. This actually indicates that democracy is alive and kicking in India.

mohar11 #41
I am puzzled by Ras`s selection too.

And remember those killed in the encounter were Pakistanis by many accounts, so NHRC of India is defending the right of Pakistanis not to be killed in police encounters in India.

Something like the right of Pakistanis to receive humane treatment from their opponents while waging jihad in Afghanistan.

Its an upside-down world.

mohar11, sadna:

The case will be pending forever and nothing will come of it. We have such democracy without having democracy in Pakistan too ;)

The doctor who was witness to the `encounter` is fearing for his life and has been declared a quack by the authorities. He seems a very brave man. Some may even call him stupid and a trouble-maker.

The police `encounter` was stage managed for a purpose. The purpose being Pakistan is still sending terrorists. How can India talk to Pakistan when it is still sending terrorists ?

I never knew anyone or any country that is so afraid to talk that it would kill drugged up people in cold blood not to talk. Kuch to sharam karo.

Faisaluno:

``guess what, it is 2002 and you guys atill drink cowpiss. ``

Yeah!!! so does half the world. It`s marketed under the name Budweiser!!

Faisaluno:

``the usual gang of idiots i was referring is not the author. instead i was referring to people like you, who if this was 1857 would be writing nonsensical pieces on chowk criticizing indians for rising up against the redcoats``

...as opposed to people like you who would be putting up a half dead blind king as Nizam e Mustapha... You did peg me right though. I do believe that India was not ready for nationhood in 1857, and had that war of independence succeeded, we would have gone backwards instead of forward.

It took time for the concept of an Indian nation state to be built up in the minds of the people. Looking back I am glad we got parliamentary democracy with all its faults in 1947 as opposed to rule by native ``maharajas`` in 1857.

You on the other hand are so blinded by parochialism that you would rather bend over for some desi usurper than learn something positive from the goras. Fine, that is your choice...go forth into ignorance and misery following some devious Pied Piper mullah/dictator who plays the strings of religion and ethnicity and leads you like mice into oblivion.

re: soysauce

{The empire is white man`s burden gone berserk. }

...and yet here you are sitting in the ``white man`s`` land licking his behind and enjoying the fruits of his ``imperialism``...

re: mohar11

...good job schooling ras...

Romair,
#23

You really know how to kick a beehive; dont you?:)

The problem with you is that you stand on a pseudo-sanctimonious pedestal & then kick the beehive. Its very easy to kick this pedestal you stand upon & make you fall on your face...& show how much you, personally, have been a hypocrite..

One caveat, though, if I`ve misunderstood what you are trying to say, please forgive me.

Well, ex-soldier-boy, the message I`m getting from your post is that when it suits YOU, foreign policy should be idealistic & when it suits YOU, foreign policy should be pragmatic.

{{Pakistanis should oppose inhumane policies of any country, including their own and the USA. But I don`t think Pakistan should put its future on the line for any country (read Arabs), if they are unwilling to put their future on the line, for us. }}

1) What China has done to Tibetans is much more inhuman than what ``hindus`` have done to Kashmiris.

2)Youre a card carrying member of AI, arent you?...go read what AI says about China..Pretend, for once, you are Tibetan( & not Kashmiri) & see how you feel about the Chinese nation---that has raped the Tibetan religion, their unique culture & tried to assimilate them like Borgs on Star Trek.

3)Beyond a card carrying AI member means you have to treat ALL countries by the same standard.

In all the years we havbe known you, Field Marshall, have we heard one PEEP about what China is doing?...Thats not your concern?!

Whether it is YOU...or your Goddamned beloved Pakistan...has considered China your ``all-weather friend`` & not ONCE have you condemned what the Chinese are doing!...Oh well...when it comes to China, the great Field Marshall advocates pragmatism (seriously), but when it comes to Israel & India & the US..you can become very sarcastic about their hypocrisy!

Whether its YOU or the dominant discourse of the Muslim world...go look at yourselves in the mirror, before you stand in judgement of others. Who died and made muslims feel so self righteous??

Hypocritical pragmatism is the ONLY policy for EVERY country. Mr Moghul `s whining about American hypocrisy is not going to make Americans (or non-muslims) sympathise with Islam. The DIN created by Islamic fundamentalists (by their behavior) has all but drowned your moderate liberal muslim voices.

Open your eyes & reflect what mandate the American people have given GWB, this November. Its about oil & about protecting & preserving the American way of live. You muslims dont like it? TOUGH...Until & unless the moderates start PUBLICLY defying the fundos, the power of the Islamic civilisation is going to wane ....not matter how much your numbers increase, its immaterial.

Remember...a few 100,000 British ruled MILLIONS in the Subcontinent because they have TECHNOLOGY. Technology is power. A few terrorist pinpricks is not going top collapse the American way of life.

To borrow Yamamato`s phrase after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor...``Al-Qeeda has awoken a sleeping giant & filled him with a terrible resolve``. You want a jihad? They`ll give you a CRusade you wont believe!!..... 9/11 has angered America a LOT more than Pearl Harbor.

Wake up from your slumber, Islamic civilisation...before you go the same way as the Romans, Egyptians, Greek, Mayans..etc. The ONLY pagans that have learnt to survive are hindus...like insects after a nuclear war.... We hindus will survive this too....