A Tale of Two Countries: Comparing India and Pakistan’s Economies
Zafar Anjum and Syeda Quratulain October 22, 2002
#137 Posted by Puri on April 12, 2006 11:51:49 am
A Brief Happening of events:
Irfan Iqbal Puri, tortured to extract money, officials driven by greed of reward and appreciation. Irfan was subjected to a total six months of illegal arrest including two months of a 24 hours a day solitary confinement, which also contains a 14 days period at The Attock Fort, in a 4ft x 7ft dark death cell, Irfan was not shown day light for the 14 days at The Attock Fort, was physically, mentally and verbally abused to the limit, perhaps treated as an Indian spy (They are Kept in these cells).
Irfan, was victimized for pure pleasure and greed,
1. A businessman of repute carrying on businesses among others as a member of the Karachi Stock Exchange, Oil Trading, Tank Farms for Oil Storage, Software development, Property Development, etc... Prior to his arrest on December 15, 1999, the victim carried out businesses in Pakistan with Hard work, integrity and acumen, the victim at an age of 37 had earned irreparable reputation for honesty and fair play in all his dealings, national as well as international.
2. NAB without making any good faith investigation or inquiry, which was obligatory on them, arrested Irfan, on December 15, 1999 from his office at Karachi, (On the Jan 16, 2000, the victim was forced to sign some per-dated documents, at Malir).
3. The arrest was not based on reasonable grounds. The victim was never informed of the grounds of his arrest. He was detained at Malir Cantonment for about seven weeks until February 12, 2000, then was shifted and kept at National Accountability Bureau (NAB) Police Station at M.P.A. Hostel Karachi. On February 27, 2000, he was shifted to Attock Fort where he was confined until March 11, 2000 and on which date he was shifted back to Karachi.
4. At Malir Cantonment, he was interrogated several times by the Joint Investigation Team, which included army personnel, and F.I.A. members of the Joint Investigation team searched and collected extensive records of the Companies in futile endeavor to find evidences of corrupt practices on the part of Irfan Puri. The thrust of inquiries and investigation related to foreign currency accounts and evasion of income tax. Irfan, maintained and explained that in view of the Tax Amnesty Scheme announced by the Chief Executive, General Pervaiz Musharaf, on December 15, 1998 and in view of the provisions contained in the protection of Economics Reforms Act 1992 there was no warrant or justification on the part of the Joint Investigation Team to investigate and inquire about his foreign currency accounts and income tax matters. In course of this investigation, it further appeared that Irfan, was detained due to a malicious complaint by one Mr. Mohammad Taufiq El Khattani motivated by enmity and greed for extracting money from his ex-employer, Saudi Pak LPG. Mr. Khattani was pressurizing him to use his business influence on Saudi Pak LPG to which he did not agree.
5. During his confinement at Malir Cantonment, he was kept in Solitary Confinement with effect from January 15, 2000 until he was shifted to the NAB police station situated at M.P.A. Hostel Karachi.
6. Due to extreme agony and distress caused by his detention, both mental and physical health of his wife was gravely affected and his wife suffered a miscarriage.
7. Time and Time again his wife Naveen Puri through her lawyers requested NAB through letters, fax etc to inform of the grounds of arrest and to allow clarification of any alleged Corruption of which he may have been accused. But NAB never informed the grounds and substance on the basis of which the he had been arrested. NAB had no valid ground for his arrest and detention.
8. On February 12, 2000 he was shifted to Nab Police Station at M.P.A. Hostel Karachi where he was kept in Solitary Confinement without any facilities. He was not allowed to meet anyone and was neither provided with proper food or medical facilities despite requests, which were of utmost importance as he is suffering from heart problem since his childhood. Here too he was extensively interrogated and was threatened that his family members would also be arrested if he would not agree with them.
9. ON February 27, 2000, Irfan was flown to Islamabad and was then taken to Attock Fort. There he was confined in a solitary cell, measuring about 4 feet x 7 feet with 18 feet high walls. There was a yellow zero watt bulb on top of an extensively high ceiling and a flat sheet steel door. Light was such that he could not even read the Quran. he went through a series of interrogations at all hours of the day and night. As a form of torture he was forced to keep his hands above his head for hours and was manhandled, pushed/thrown from one to another with a sack covering his head, was subjected to the worst verbal, physical, mental torture. He was threatened with dire consequences, including risk to his life and his family members. Sleep deprivation methods were used upon him. He would be taken out of the cell at odd hours and his head covered with a black sack/hood and a band tied over the hood around his eyes and army men holding him by his arms for interrogation purpose dragging him to another room where he would be interrogated for hours on end. Time and time again he would be asked what his family members were willing to pay to save his life. They would threaten him that if he would not pay up his family members would also be arrested and brought to Attock Fort, the family received phone calls at odd times, also in the middle of the nights and by FIA/NAB officials giving threats, and calling for family members to visit the NAB office/FIA center.
10. After spending 14 days in this death cell without seeing light, Irfan was allowed to meet his father and wife in light and in presence of army men, where his father told him that the NAB officials have been making phone call to Irfan’s father asking him to come over to the NAB offices, that was the final breaking point where Irfan asked his dad to hold it for two days and that Irfan will try is best to settle one way or the other with NAB… if only one could imagine what this meant to Irfan…
11. Since his unlawful arrest he underwent extreme mental torture leading to a complete nervous breakdown and deterioration in his childhood heart condition. He lost more than 12 kg in weight.
12. He finally broke down under threat intimidation and coercion and it was in such a state that he agreed to make payment of sum of Rs. Three Hundred Million to the NAB.
13. After his verbal agreement at Attock Fort to arrange for payment of Rs. 300,000,000/-, he was brought to Karachi on PIA flight from Islamabad in handcuffs on March 11, 2000. The Plaintiff saw sunlight for the first time since he was brought to Attock Fort when he was taken out of his cell without any cloth covering his eyes.
14. At NAB Police Station in Karachi he was threatened, pressurized coerced to agree in writing to the payment of Rs. 300 million, of which Rs. 100 million had to be paid in advance before his release. He was told, “there is no law just pay up”.
15. The FIA and other staff of NAB started visiting the offices and house of Irfan from day to day and harassing the staff members and hindering work, rather making it impossible to run a business. The offices were surrounded by FIA, NAB, Rangers` officials and military personals demanding the remaining payment and threatening dire consequences otherwise. The abuse stretched to a point where some senior office executives were made to strip naked by removal of all clothes hence torture and harassment to unparalleled height.
16. He was also coerced to hand over property documents as “security” for payment of the remaining amount of Rs. 200,000,000/- (Rupees two hundred million). Hence, had to hand over original property documents over to NAB of five (5) properties which actually have an aggregate value of Rs. 400,000,000/- (Rupees Four Hundred Million)..
17. Even after all this, NAB did not release him, but kept him under house arrest / unlawful detention until June 14, 2000.
18. Whilst Irfan, was under house arrest two dozen Rangers were stationed around the clock in and around the house.
19. Irfan, ultimately released from house arrest on June 14, 2000 after 3 months. Total captivity being six months, had several meetings with General Amjad, and suggestions made by Irfan, resulted in savings of over a billion rupees in Oil imports.
20. General Syed Amjad made many promises/ commitments in the name of justice that money extracted from Irfan Puri would be returned to him. General Amjad appreciated and understood that grave injustice had been done, both in private and in presence of various individuals.
21. Irfan, in frustration filed a number of court cases against NAB, FIA, etc, giving the ordeal of the experience gone through, as a result, bogus Income tax/Wealth Tax demands have been issued by the department on the behest of NAB officials visiting the department forcing tax officers to issue demands.
22. Irfan, then also had meetings with General Khalid Maqbool the new Chairman of NAB for justice but regrettably no action was taken.
23. However, on the 17th of May 2003, General Munir Hafiz (as NAB Chairman) visited Irfan`s house in Karachi to meet with his family, Said ``all you have seen of NAB is tha hard side, I want to show the family the softer side of NAB``, during the earlier meetings that Irfan had with General Hafiz, Irfan was told a number of times by General Hafiz that he would arrange for a face to face meeting with General Amjad, Himself (to witness) and Irfan, however, when Irfan asked General Hafiz, as to when the meeting would happen, General Hafiz said ``The meeting can`t take place, I would not want to embarass the General (General Amjad)``.
General Hafeez, on his visit was Kind, straight fowrard, and honest, however, he asked Irfan to withdraw legal prodeeding against NAB, and that NAB would make sure Irfan benefits in other areas, or else.... you can`t fight us.
23. He also sought an appointment with Chief Executive General Pervaiz Musharraf, without success.
Still goes on...
Irfan Iqbal Puri, tortured to extract money, officials driven by greed of reward and appreciation. Irfan was subjected to a total six months of illegal arrest including two months of a 24 hours a day solitary confinement, which also contains a 14 days period at The Attock Fort, in a 4ft x 7ft dark death cell, Irfan was not shown day light for the 14 days at The Attock Fort, was physically, mentally and verbally abused to the limit, perhaps treated as an Indian spy (They are Kept in these cells).
Irfan, was victimized for pure pleasure and greed,
1. A businessman of repute carrying on businesses among others as a member of the Karachi Stock Exchange, Oil Trading, Tank Farms for Oil Storage, Software development, Property Development, etc... Prior to his arrest on December 15, 1999, the victim carried out businesses in Pakistan with Hard work, integrity and acumen, the victim at an age of 37 had earned irreparable reputation for honesty and fair play in all his dealings, national as well as international.
2. NAB without making any good faith investigation or inquiry, which was obligatory on them, arrested Irfan, on December 15, 1999 from his office at Karachi, (On the Jan 16, 2000, the victim was forced to sign some per-dated documents, at Malir).
3. The arrest was not based on reasonable grounds. The victim was never informed of the grounds of his arrest. He was detained at Malir Cantonment for about seven weeks until February 12, 2000, then was shifted and kept at National Accountability Bureau (NAB) Police Station at M.P.A. Hostel Karachi. On February 27, 2000, he was shifted to Attock Fort where he was confined until March 11, 2000 and on which date he was shifted back to Karachi.
4. At Malir Cantonment, he was interrogated several times by the Joint Investigation Team, which included army personnel, and F.I.A. members of the Joint Investigation team searched and collected extensive records of the Companies in futile endeavor to find evidences of corrupt practices on the part of Irfan Puri. The thrust of inquiries and investigation related to foreign currency accounts and evasion of income tax. Irfan, maintained and explained that in view of the Tax Amnesty Scheme announced by the Chief Executive, General Pervaiz Musharaf, on December 15, 1998 and in view of the provisions contained in the protection of Economics Reforms Act 1992 there was no warrant or justification on the part of the Joint Investigation Team to investigate and inquire about his foreign currency accounts and income tax matters. In course of this investigation, it further appeared that Irfan, was detained due to a malicious complaint by one Mr. Mohammad Taufiq El Khattani motivated by enmity and greed for extracting money from his ex-employer, Saudi Pak LPG. Mr. Khattani was pressurizing him to use his business influence on Saudi Pak LPG to which he did not agree.
5. During his confinement at Malir Cantonment, he was kept in Solitary Confinement with effect from January 15, 2000 until he was shifted to the NAB police station situated at M.P.A. Hostel Karachi.
6. Due to extreme agony and distress caused by his detention, both mental and physical health of his wife was gravely affected and his wife suffered a miscarriage.
7. Time and Time again his wife Naveen Puri through her lawyers requested NAB through letters, fax etc to inform of the grounds of arrest and to allow clarification of any alleged Corruption of which he may have been accused. But NAB never informed the grounds and substance on the basis of which the he had been arrested. NAB had no valid ground for his arrest and detention.
8. On February 12, 2000 he was shifted to Nab Police Station at M.P.A. Hostel Karachi where he was kept in Solitary Confinement without any facilities. He was not allowed to meet anyone and was neither provided with proper food or medical facilities despite requests, which were of utmost importance as he is suffering from heart problem since his childhood. Here too he was extensively interrogated and was threatened that his family members would also be arrested if he would not agree with them.
9. ON February 27, 2000, Irfan was flown to Islamabad and was then taken to Attock Fort. There he was confined in a solitary cell, measuring about 4 feet x 7 feet with 18 feet high walls. There was a yellow zero watt bulb on top of an extensively high ceiling and a flat sheet steel door. Light was such that he could not even read the Quran. he went through a series of interrogations at all hours of the day and night. As a form of torture he was forced to keep his hands above his head for hours and was manhandled, pushed/thrown from one to another with a sack covering his head, was subjected to the worst verbal, physical, mental torture. He was threatened with dire consequences, including risk to his life and his family members. Sleep deprivation methods were used upon him. He would be taken out of the cell at odd hours and his head covered with a black sack/hood and a band tied over the hood around his eyes and army men holding him by his arms for interrogation purpose dragging him to another room where he would be interrogated for hours on end. Time and time again he would be asked what his family members were willing to pay to save his life. They would threaten him that if he would not pay up his family members would also be arrested and brought to Attock Fort, the family received phone calls at odd times, also in the middle of the nights and by FIA/NAB officials giving threats, and calling for family members to visit the NAB office/FIA center.
10. After spending 14 days in this death cell without seeing light, Irfan was allowed to meet his father and wife in light and in presence of army men, where his father told him that the NAB officials have been making phone call to Irfan’s father asking him to come over to the NAB offices, that was the final breaking point where Irfan asked his dad to hold it for two days and that Irfan will try is best to settle one way or the other with NAB… if only one could imagine what this meant to Irfan…
11. Since his unlawful arrest he underwent extreme mental torture leading to a complete nervous breakdown and deterioration in his childhood heart condition. He lost more than 12 kg in weight.
12. He finally broke down under threat intimidation and coercion and it was in such a state that he agreed to make payment of sum of Rs. Three Hundred Million to the NAB.
13. After his verbal agreement at Attock Fort to arrange for payment of Rs. 300,000,000/-, he was brought to Karachi on PIA flight from Islamabad in handcuffs on March 11, 2000. The Plaintiff saw sunlight for the first time since he was brought to Attock Fort when he was taken out of his cell without any cloth covering his eyes.
14. At NAB Police Station in Karachi he was threatened, pressurized coerced to agree in writing to the payment of Rs. 300 million, of which Rs. 100 million had to be paid in advance before his release. He was told, “there is no law just pay up”.
15. The FIA and other staff of NAB started visiting the offices and house of Irfan from day to day and harassing the staff members and hindering work, rather making it impossible to run a business. The offices were surrounded by FIA, NAB, Rangers` officials and military personals demanding the remaining payment and threatening dire consequences otherwise. The abuse stretched to a point where some senior office executives were made to strip naked by removal of all clothes hence torture and harassment to unparalleled height.
16. He was also coerced to hand over property documents as “security” for payment of the remaining amount of Rs. 200,000,000/- (Rupees two hundred million). Hence, had to hand over original property documents over to NAB of five (5) properties which actually have an aggregate value of Rs. 400,000,000/- (Rupees Four Hundred Million)..
17. Even after all this, NAB did not release him, but kept him under house arrest / unlawful detention until June 14, 2000.
18. Whilst Irfan, was under house arrest two dozen Rangers were stationed around the clock in and around the house.
19. Irfan, ultimately released from house arrest on June 14, 2000 after 3 months. Total captivity being six months, had several meetings with General Amjad, and suggestions made by Irfan, resulted in savings of over a billion rupees in Oil imports.
20. General Syed Amjad made many promises/ commitments in the name of justice that money extracted from Irfan Puri would be returned to him. General Amjad appreciated and understood that grave injustice had been done, both in private and in presence of various individuals.
21. Irfan, in frustration filed a number of court cases against NAB, FIA, etc, giving the ordeal of the experience gone through, as a result, bogus Income tax/Wealth Tax demands have been issued by the department on the behest of NAB officials visiting the department forcing tax officers to issue demands.
22. Irfan, then also had meetings with General Khalid Maqbool the new Chairman of NAB for justice but regrettably no action was taken.
23. However, on the 17th of May 2003, General Munir Hafiz (as NAB Chairman) visited Irfan`s house in Karachi to meet with his family, Said ``all you have seen of NAB is tha hard side, I want to show the family the softer side of NAB``, during the earlier meetings that Irfan had with General Hafiz, Irfan was told a number of times by General Hafiz that he would arrange for a face to face meeting with General Amjad, Himself (to witness) and Irfan, however, when Irfan asked General Hafiz, as to when the meeting would happen, General Hafiz said ``The meeting can`t take place, I would not want to embarass the General (General Amjad)``.
General Hafeez, on his visit was Kind, straight fowrard, and honest, however, he asked Irfan to withdraw legal prodeeding against NAB, and that NAB would make sure Irfan benefits in other areas, or else.... you can`t fight us.
23. He also sought an appointment with Chief Executive General Pervaiz Musharraf, without success.
Still goes on...
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#136 Posted by harimau on October 31, 2002 10:55:14 pm
Ref ZafarA #133
[I have even heard that these potatos speak Kannada at home…no shame…]
So long as it is in the movie business, it wouldn`t matter. If Rajnikanth could get off a bus from Bangalore as a bus conductor and become THE Superstar of Tamil movies, Soysauce would be willing to accept the potato as a Tamil vegetable if it has even a non-speaking role in a Tamil movie.
[I have even heard that these potatos speak Kannada at home…no shame…]
So long as it is in the movie business, it wouldn`t matter. If Rajnikanth could get off a bus from Bangalore as a bus conductor and become THE Superstar of Tamil movies, Soysauce would be willing to accept the potato as a Tamil vegetable if it has even a non-speaking role in a Tamil movie.
#135 Posted by harimau on October 31, 2002 6:52:23 am
Ref Zero Credit #116
Hey, Abdul; here are a few other statistics you would want to present.
Number of people living in caves:
China - 27 million
India - A handful of Jain monks.
Protest against the Three Gorges Dam - Zero
Protest Against the Sardar Sarovar Project - Protests by Arundhati Roy, by the Narmada Bachao Andolan, Supreme Court rulings on height of the dam, etc.
Number of Nuclear tests:
China - 45
India -6
Hey, Abdul; here are a few other statistics you would want to present.
Number of people living in caves:
China - 27 million
India - A handful of Jain monks.
Protest against the Three Gorges Dam - Zero
Protest Against the Sardar Sarovar Project - Protests by Arundhati Roy, by the Narmada Bachao Andolan, Supreme Court rulings on height of the dam, etc.
Number of Nuclear tests:
China - 45
India -6
#134 Posted by harimau on October 31, 2002 6:52:23 am
Ref Zero Credit #116
Hey, Abdul; here are a few other statistics you would want to present.
Number of people living in caves:
China - 27 million
India - A handful of Jain monks.
Protest against the Three Gorges Dam - Zero
Protest Against the Sardar Sarovar Project - Protests by Arundhati Roy, by the Narmada Bachao Andolan, Supreme Court rulings on height of the dam, etc.
Number of Nuclear tests:
China - 45
India -6
Hey, Abdul; here are a few other statistics you would want to present.
Number of people living in caves:
China - 27 million
India - A handful of Jain monks.
Protest against the Three Gorges Dam - Zero
Protest Against the Sardar Sarovar Project - Protests by Arundhati Roy, by the Narmada Bachao Andolan, Supreme Court rulings on height of the dam, etc.
Number of Nuclear tests:
China - 45
India -6
#133 Posted by ZafarA on October 30, 2002 8:06:01 pm
Reply Harimau #125
“But then, one must inquire into the antecedents of the potato. It being a non-Tamil vegetable and having not made any attempt to learn Tamil since the several decades it has been cultivated in Tamil Nadu, it is highly questionable if it can be the True Tamilian`s favorite snack... “
I have even heard that these potatos speak Kannada at home…no shame…
“But then, one must inquire into the antecedents of the potato. It being a non-Tamil vegetable and having not made any attempt to learn Tamil since the several decades it has been cultivated in Tamil Nadu, it is highly questionable if it can be the True Tamilian`s favorite snack... “
I have even heard that these potatos speak Kannada at home…no shame…
#131 Posted by Urstruly on October 29, 2002 12:46:39 pm
Arjunm #130
Yes, I know at least the basics of law. When a case is contested successively in lower court and then in upper court, the verdict of upper court over-rides that of lower court`s. Which means that the verdict of lower court is annuled. As far as double jeopardy is concerned, I am not familiar with Dutch law. As far as application of double jeopardy in most EU country`s is concerned, Britian only last month has passed a legislation to apply DJ (I do not remember exactly whether the bill was passed last month or it was only presented then).
In case of Dr. Khan DJ may or may not apply. As Mr. S.M. Zafar (Dr. Khan`s chief defence attorney) relates in his book that his argument that case must be dismissed on technical basis because subpoena was not served appropriately caused a major embrassment not only for prosecution but Dutch government as well. Other than that the case against Mr. Khan was also very week since he did not do anything inapprpriate or out of order. Prosecution had only one documentary evidence against him, which was a letter he wrote to another friend of his, a Paksitani, also a nuclear physicist enquiring him about a technical question. Such correspondence is common place between colleagues and counterparts, especially those who are engaged in active research. Dutch government initiated this inquiry or case against Mr. Khan at the pressure of US government. But Dutch government did not have enough proof to successfully convict him. The verdict in lower court went against Mr. Khan because he was not present to defend himself. In such cases usually lower courts deliver verdicts based on prosecutions case. In order to save face, from this embarassment, in upper court, the defence lawyers and prosecution reached an agreement that case against Mr. Khan will be withdrawn and Dutch government will not pusue this matter any further. That was Mr. Khan`s main demand from his lawyers and Mr. S.M. Zafar did deliver.
#130 Posted by arjun_m on October 29, 2002 12:04:41 pm
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#129 Posted by Urstruly on October 29, 2002 10:18:24 am
Arjunm# 119
``Have you even read the complete post? It`s more a damning indictment than an ``exhonoration``..
Yes I have, and not only that I know how actually the court proceedings went through. Dr. Khan did not make Dutch law. He stood to whatever criteria was set by Dutch government to deliver the justice. Prosecution failed to make successful case against him - it is not Dr. Khan`s fault. Those times are gone when hunumans used to descend from heavens to swear for the chastity of people like Dr. Khan.
``Have you even read the complete post? It`s more a damning indictment than an ``exhonoration``..
Yes I have, and not only that I know how actually the court proceedings went through. Dr. Khan did not make Dutch law. He stood to whatever criteria was set by Dutch government to deliver the justice. Prosecution failed to make successful case against him - it is not Dr. Khan`s fault. Those times are gone when hunumans used to descend from heavens to swear for the chastity of people like Dr. Khan.
#128 Posted by harimau on October 29, 2002 7:05:15 am
Ref Urstruly #94
[Shankar
The answer to all your questions/proposals is very simple. The local baker does not live and work in a vacuum. What is he to do when his wife starts asking for a soap made by MNCs or imported ones to take a bath; what about his son who now wants a Rs. 35 can of Pepsi and wont drink local made Rs. 12 Pepsi;..]
Whoa; hold on jes a minnit, will ya?
Have you tried the Diet Coke made and sold in India? The taste and aftertaste are exactly like what one gets after raeding one of your rants.
I once got a can of Diet Coke on a United flight that tasted baaaad. I read the printing on the can and found that it was made in Thailand.
So, don`t blame the baker`s son if he wants The Real Thing. (Does anybody even remember that jingle?)
[Shankar
The answer to all your questions/proposals is very simple. The local baker does not live and work in a vacuum. What is he to do when his wife starts asking for a soap made by MNCs or imported ones to take a bath; what about his son who now wants a Rs. 35 can of Pepsi and wont drink local made Rs. 12 Pepsi;..]
Whoa; hold on jes a minnit, will ya?
Have you tried the Diet Coke made and sold in India? The taste and aftertaste are exactly like what one gets after raeding one of your rants.
I once got a can of Diet Coke on a United flight that tasted baaaad. I read the printing on the can and found that it was made in Thailand.
So, don`t blame the baker`s son if he wants The Real Thing. (Does anybody even remember that jingle?)
#127 Posted by harimau on October 29, 2002 7:05:15 am
Ref AAmir #103 by AAmir
[When Hindu Bhabha & Abul Kalam read european Oppppenheimer they become Bomb Fatther...]
Oppenheimer - American. Jewish, if you want to rave about the Zionist/Jewish conspiracy against the Muslims.
Also, a godless Commie whose security clearance was revoked and who was never allowed to work on any bomb projects.
[.... & when i master Nuclear physics gadha i am stealing DUNCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
When YOU master Nuclear Physics, we will all be given 72 houris right here on Planet Earth.
[When Hindu Bhabha & Abul Kalam read european Oppppenheimer they become Bomb Fatther...]
Oppenheimer - American. Jewish, if you want to rave about the Zionist/Jewish conspiracy against the Muslims.
Also, a godless Commie whose security clearance was revoked and who was never allowed to work on any bomb projects.
[.... & when i master Nuclear physics gadha i am stealing DUNCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
When YOU master Nuclear Physics, we will all be given 72 houris right here on Planet Earth.
#126 Posted by harimau on October 29, 2002 7:05:14 am
Ref AmericanExpress #115
[Qadir Khan is a greater Heroe than Douglas Mcarthur (who by victims of ww2 in far east )& less PIRATE than Mount Batten who who used everything in his line of duty of sevice to the Queen even his WIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ]
So! Go pimp your wife in the service of Pakistan.
[Qadir Khan is a greater Heroe than Douglas Mcarthur (who by victims of ww2 in far east )& less PIRATE than Mount Batten who who used everything in his line of duty of sevice to the Queen even his WIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ]
So! Go pimp your wife in the service of Pakistan.
#125 Posted by harimau on October 29, 2002 7:05:14 am
Ref AmericanExpress #116
You missed out on one thing:
Number of free elections held since Independence.
But then you guys believe in the divinely appointed Caliphs.
You missed out on one thing:
Number of free elections held since Independence.
But then you guys believe in the divinely appointed Caliphs.
#124 Posted by arjun_m on October 29, 2002 7:05:14 am
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#123 Posted by harimau on October 29, 2002 7:05:14 am
Ref ZafarA #121
[Reply RLeonard #107
`` By flavoring potato chips in sambar you wold probably target only the high-born Brahmins who are not Dravids,``
What? Only Brahmins eat sambar? What about rasam?]
You need to have potato chips with karuvattu-kuzhambu flavor if you want to target the Sangilikkaruppans.
[``...if you need to target the Dravid sgement you would have to package it as `` Sweet Tamil Renaissance`` potato chips``
Excellent name suggestion, but what does the Sweet Tamil Renaissance Lajawab Portato Chip actually taste of???]
Nope. It must be called ``Iniya (Sweet) Tamil Marumalarchchi (Renaissance) Urulai Kizhangu Varuval``. We don`t know what the right flavor must be. If it was named Tamil/Dravida Munnetra Urulai Kizhangu Varuval (Potato Chips - Urulai Kizhangu Varuval), it must have the flavor of rice gruel. If it is named Anna Dravida Munnetra Urulai Kizhangu Varuval, it must have the flavor of Egg Biriyani. This is based on the fact (I am NOT making this up) that starving weavers in Tamil Nadu were supplied with rice gruel by Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam and with Egg Biriyani by Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam. The Tamil Marumalarchchi Kazhagam (yes, it actually exists!) has not as yet gotten into the food service business and thus the dilemma about what the flavor should be for Iniya Tamil Marumalarchchi Urulai Kizhangu Varuval.
But then, one must inquire into the antecedents of the potato. It being a non-Tamil vegetable and having not made any attempt to learn Tamil since the several decades it has been cultivated in Tamil Nadu, it is highly questionable if it can be the True Tamilian`s favorite snack... unless of course it is named Father Big Man/Lord Elder Brother/Doctor Artist Leader Fund of Compassion Potato Chips, in which case Soy Sauce would buy the entire annual output of the factory and feel happy about supporting a True Tamil Vegetable..... er, he ALREADY supports several TRUE Tamil Vegetables such as Father Big Man, Lord Elder Brother, Doctor Artist Leader Fund of Compassion, MK Stalin, etc.
[Reply RLeonard #107
`` By flavoring potato chips in sambar you wold probably target only the high-born Brahmins who are not Dravids,``
What? Only Brahmins eat sambar? What about rasam?]
You need to have potato chips with karuvattu-kuzhambu flavor if you want to target the Sangilikkaruppans.
[``...if you need to target the Dravid sgement you would have to package it as `` Sweet Tamil Renaissance`` potato chips``
Excellent name suggestion, but what does the Sweet Tamil Renaissance Lajawab Portato Chip actually taste of???]
Nope. It must be called ``Iniya (Sweet) Tamil Marumalarchchi (Renaissance) Urulai Kizhangu Varuval``. We don`t know what the right flavor must be. If it was named Tamil/Dravida Munnetra Urulai Kizhangu Varuval (Potato Chips - Urulai Kizhangu Varuval), it must have the flavor of rice gruel. If it is named Anna Dravida Munnetra Urulai Kizhangu Varuval, it must have the flavor of Egg Biriyani. This is based on the fact (I am NOT making this up) that starving weavers in Tamil Nadu were supplied with rice gruel by Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam and with Egg Biriyani by Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam. The Tamil Marumalarchchi Kazhagam (yes, it actually exists!) has not as yet gotten into the food service business and thus the dilemma about what the flavor should be for Iniya Tamil Marumalarchchi Urulai Kizhangu Varuval.
But then, one must inquire into the antecedents of the potato. It being a non-Tamil vegetable and having not made any attempt to learn Tamil since the several decades it has been cultivated in Tamil Nadu, it is highly questionable if it can be the True Tamilian`s favorite snack... unless of course it is named Father Big Man/Lord Elder Brother/Doctor Artist Leader Fund of Compassion Potato Chips, in which case Soy Sauce would buy the entire annual output of the factory and feel happy about supporting a True Tamil Vegetable..... er, he ALREADY supports several TRUE Tamil Vegetables such as Father Big Man, Lord Elder Brother, Doctor Artist Leader Fund of Compassion, MK Stalin, etc.
#122 Posted by harimau on October 29, 2002 7:05:14 am
Ref Stolen-Credit-Card #121
You forgot to mention one more statistic:
Number of people who starved to death because of Mao`s collectivization:
China - 30 million
India - ?
You forgot to mention one more statistic:
Number of people who starved to death because of Mao`s collectivization:
China - 30 million
India - ?
#121 Posted by ZafarA on October 28, 2002 9:14:26 pm
Reply RLeonard #107
`` By flavoring potato chips in sambar you wold probably target only the high-born Brahmins who are not Dravids,``
What? Only Brahmins eat sambar? What about rasam?
``...if you need to target the Dravid sgement you would have to package it as `` Sweet Tamil Renaissance`` potato chips``
Excellent name suggestion, but what does the Sweet Tamil Renaissance Lajawab Portato Chip actually taste of???
`` - demographics of TN suggest that this would be prudent because Brahmins make up about 2 % of TN.``
I am not convinced that Dravids, Brahmins or not, do not eat sambar.
`` By flavoring potato chips in sambar you wold probably target only the high-born Brahmins who are not Dravids,``
What? Only Brahmins eat sambar? What about rasam?
``...if you need to target the Dravid sgement you would have to package it as `` Sweet Tamil Renaissance`` potato chips``
Excellent name suggestion, but what does the Sweet Tamil Renaissance Lajawab Portato Chip actually taste of???
`` - demographics of TN suggest that this would be prudent because Brahmins make up about 2 % of TN.``
I am not convinced that Dravids, Brahmins or not, do not eat sambar.
#120 Posted by Tipu on October 28, 2002 7:52:31 pm
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#119 Posted by arjun_m on October 28, 2002 2:18:05 pm
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#117 Posted by Urstruly on October 28, 2002 9:47:15 am
Arjunm
You have lowered yourself to attribute lies even to your nephew? Read #111. I think poster is a Hindu, exhonorating Mr. Khan this time.
#116 Posted by alphaHussain on October 28, 2002 9:28:12 am
http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Pakistan/AQKhan.html
In 1983, a court in Amsterdam sentenced Abdul Qadeer Khan to fours years in prison for stealing nuclear technology. Two years later, an appeals court quashed the sentence for ``failure to properly deliver a summons to him.`` By then Abdul Qadeer Khan had run away to Pakistan and was hiding there under government protection. Foreign journalists trying to locate him were picked up and beaten by Pakistan`s secret services.
``In late July 1979, unidentified men stopped and beat severely the French Ambassador and his First Secretary as they were driving by Khan`s laboratories in Kahuta. A few weeks later in August a journalist for the Financial Times named Chris Sherwell trying to locate Khan`s house to conduct an interview in Islamabad was beaten up and then arrested and charged with fictitious crimes, forcing him to leave the country. Later a British diplomat`s son was detained by police after losing his way in the Islamabad district that houses Khan [Weissman and Krosney 1981; pp. 193], [Henderson 1993].``
Abdul Qadeer Khan`s claims to have developed the technology ``cannot be taken seriously, to say the least.``
This is how he stole the technology-
Since Khan had lived in Europe from 1961 on and was married to a Dutch national (as the Dutch security service BVD believed) the very personable Khan had little trouble getting a security clearance - a limited security clearance. Curiously Khan`s wife Henny was not Dutch though, but a Dutch-speaking South African holding a British passport.
Elementary principals of security were not, it seems, observed by any part of the URENCO establishment. Routine procedures, such as wearing identification badges marked with the level of clearance appear to have been unknown. Once someone gained access to part of a facility with one level of clearance, there seem to have been few if any barriers to moving to higher level areas. The customary practice of checking the security clearance level of a person before signing out to classified documents to them appears to have been ignored.
Within a week of starting with FDO A. Q. Khan was sent to the UCN enrichment facility in Almelo, Netherlands. A visit to an external facility would normally require the transmittal of security paperwork to be granted access. This procedure was ignored by both FDO and UCN, because Khan was not cleared to visit the UCN facility, though he would do so repeatedly during his employment.
The multi-lingual engineer was tasked with translating highly classified technical documents describing the centrifuges in detail. In the course of this work, he often took the documents home, with FDO`s consent, even though this was also a breach of normal procedure. In his first two years Khan worked with two early centrifuge designs, the CNOR and SNOR machines, then in late 1974 UCN asked Khan to translate highly classified design documents for two advanced German machines, the G-1 and G-2. These represented the most sophisticated industrial enrichment technology in the world at the time.
Khan spent 16 days over the course of a month in the highest security area of the Almelo facility while studying these machines. During this period he had unsupervised access, and was noted roaming around, writing notes in a foreign script, but with the lax security culture no attempts to stop him or investigate his activities [Weissman and Krosney 1981; pp. 175-179], [Burrows and Windrem 1994; pp. 362-364].
Shahid-ur-Rehman relates in his book The Long Road to Chagai that Khan wrote to the Prime Minister in September 1974 offering his services to Pakistan, which means that he had definitely begun his espionage activities by the time he went to work with the G-2 and G-2. Evidence of the effect of Khan`s passing of information on centrifuge technology and design, and on the URENCO component suppliers, to Pakistan can be seen in the initiation of the Pakistani purchase of components for the uranium enrichment program beginning in August 1975.
In January 1976, on (according to Khan) the invitation of Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, he suddenly left Europe with his family before his espionage was detected. The Khans`s departure was deceptive, Henny wrote to neighbor`s saying they were on vacation and Abdul had suddenly fallen ill. Khan later sent a letter of resignation, effective in March, to FDO from Pakistan.
Khan, because of the secrecy enveloping Pakistan`s nuclear program, has lived heavily guarded by security men.
In 1983, a court in Amsterdam sentenced Abdul Qadeer Khan to fours years in prison for stealing nuclear technology. Two years later, an appeals court quashed the sentence for ``failure to properly deliver a summons to him.`` By then Abdul Qadeer Khan had run away to Pakistan and was hiding there under government protection. Foreign journalists trying to locate him were picked up and beaten by Pakistan`s secret services.
``In late July 1979, unidentified men stopped and beat severely the French Ambassador and his First Secretary as they were driving by Khan`s laboratories in Kahuta. A few weeks later in August a journalist for the Financial Times named Chris Sherwell trying to locate Khan`s house to conduct an interview in Islamabad was beaten up and then arrested and charged with fictitious crimes, forcing him to leave the country. Later a British diplomat`s son was detained by police after losing his way in the Islamabad district that houses Khan [Weissman and Krosney 1981; pp. 193], [Henderson 1993].``
Abdul Qadeer Khan`s claims to have developed the technology ``cannot be taken seriously, to say the least.``
This is how he stole the technology-
Since Khan had lived in Europe from 1961 on and was married to a Dutch national (as the Dutch security service BVD believed) the very personable Khan had little trouble getting a security clearance - a limited security clearance. Curiously Khan`s wife Henny was not Dutch though, but a Dutch-speaking South African holding a British passport.
Elementary principals of security were not, it seems, observed by any part of the URENCO establishment. Routine procedures, such as wearing identification badges marked with the level of clearance appear to have been unknown. Once someone gained access to part of a facility with one level of clearance, there seem to have been few if any barriers to moving to higher level areas. The customary practice of checking the security clearance level of a person before signing out to classified documents to them appears to have been ignored.
Within a week of starting with FDO A. Q. Khan was sent to the UCN enrichment facility in Almelo, Netherlands. A visit to an external facility would normally require the transmittal of security paperwork to be granted access. This procedure was ignored by both FDO and UCN, because Khan was not cleared to visit the UCN facility, though he would do so repeatedly during his employment.
The multi-lingual engineer was tasked with translating highly classified technical documents describing the centrifuges in detail. In the course of this work, he often took the documents home, with FDO`s consent, even though this was also a breach of normal procedure. In his first two years Khan worked with two early centrifuge designs, the CNOR and SNOR machines, then in late 1974 UCN asked Khan to translate highly classified design documents for two advanced German machines, the G-1 and G-2. These represented the most sophisticated industrial enrichment technology in the world at the time.
Khan spent 16 days over the course of a month in the highest security area of the Almelo facility while studying these machines. During this period he had unsupervised access, and was noted roaming around, writing notes in a foreign script, but with the lax security culture no attempts to stop him or investigate his activities [Weissman and Krosney 1981; pp. 175-179], [Burrows and Windrem 1994; pp. 362-364].
Shahid-ur-Rehman relates in his book The Long Road to Chagai that Khan wrote to the Prime Minister in September 1974 offering his services to Pakistan, which means that he had definitely begun his espionage activities by the time he went to work with the G-2 and G-2. Evidence of the effect of Khan`s passing of information on centrifuge technology and design, and on the URENCO component suppliers, to Pakistan can be seen in the initiation of the Pakistani purchase of components for the uranium enrichment program beginning in August 1975.
In January 1976, on (according to Khan) the invitation of Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, he suddenly left Europe with his family before his espionage was detected. The Khans`s departure was deceptive, Henny wrote to neighbor`s saying they were on vacation and Abdul had suddenly fallen ill. Khan later sent a letter of resignation, effective in March, to FDO from Pakistan.
Khan, because of the secrecy enveloping Pakistan`s nuclear program, has lived heavily guarded by security men.
#115 Posted by arjun_m on October 28, 2002 9:28:12 am
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#114 Posted by snow on October 28, 2002 9:28:12 am
All this brouhaha about Dr. Khan stealing nuclear secrets is just hogwash. All the countries that possess nuclear capabilities today did not discover the methods anew/independently. Israel, India, France, USA, China, Russia etc. etc. did not discover nuclear secrets independently, they worked off of previous discoveries and known research. Thats how science works.
The problem with Dr. Khan`s `discovery` was that he took it and passed it along to Pakistan without proper approval, permission from the powers that be. Thats all.
Whats the world going to do about it ? We have the technology now... suck on this.
The problem with Dr. Khan`s `discovery` was that he took it and passed it along to Pakistan without proper approval, permission from the powers that be. Thats all.
Whats the world going to do about it ? We have the technology now... suck on this.
#113 Posted by alphaHussain on October 28, 2002 9:28:12 am
From Der Spiegel, Feb. 20, 1989
Abdul Qadir khan stole nuclear technology
[FROM DER SPIEGEL, FEB. 20, 1989]
West German firms supplied parts and know-how.
The laboratory is hidden in a desert at the foot of the Kashmir mountains. Anti-aircraft artillery protects the area, soldiers guard the doorways into and out of the laboratories, storehouses, and underground vaults.
In the laboratory, generators whir, selected scientists operate highly sensitive aggregates; measuring instruments, vacuum pumps, and automated precision tools work around the clock.
In the nuclear plant, which forms part of the nuclear center of Pinstech near Rawalpindi, elements for the Islamic bomb are produced in strict secrecy--with machinery made in Germany.
The German equipment--for the time being the last delivery--was tested on site by Peter Finke, 45, on behalf of the Gelnhausen-based firm New Technologies (NTG). In July last year, the physicist showed his Pakistani colleagues for 2 weeks how to operate the complicated glove-compartment plant for the recovery of tritium.
Since then the scientist (`I am a pacifist`) has had pangs of consicence; possibly the equipment could be `converted,` he says. He stresses that anyway, a `pure training plant` was supplied--allegedly, in order to clean the tritium-contaminated Pakistani nuclear reactor in Karachi, which is, however, 1,100 km away.
Radioactive tritium is sold on the international black market of weapons-grade nuclear products at even higher prices than plutonium. A few grams of this gas are sufficient to increase the power of an explosive `substantially,` says nuclear weapons scientist Gerhard Locke, 56, of the Euskirchen Fraunhofer Institute. Therefore, `the second bomb generation of the lighter type` cannot do `without tritium,` he says.
However, the artificially produced superheavy hydrogen decomposes quickly into helium. Therefore, it must be constantly renewed.
That is precisely what the NTG plant can do: Every day, five grams of tritium can be recovered--a quantity which according to Locke is `incredibly large.` That is why Albert Farwick, chief of the Nanau public prosecution which is investigating NTG, considers `some civil use practically inconceivable.`
There is no doubt that Munir Ahmed Khan, chief of the Pakistan Nuclear Authority, with whom Finke already had a cup of tea, has secretly developed his country into a nuclear power; the bomb puzzle is complete. He had many individual parts--ranging from transformer sheets to uranium conversion--supplied by small West German firms, using a network of agents to this end.
The special pipes and supersolid steel from Singen and Saarbruecken, the mass spectrometers and magnets from Bremen and Bonn were made-to-measure for Khan`s program which is carried out in a number of nuclear centers:
In Rawalpindi, where in addition to the bomb plant, a 24-year-old U.S. research reactor is in operation and a reprocessing plant produces about 20 kg of plutonium every year;
In Kahuta, Abdil-Kadir Khan, who is admired as `the new Einstein,` meanwhile has produced more than 100 kg highly enriched weapons-grade uranium, using ultra-highspeed centrifuges;
At the Dera-Ghazi-Khan center, natural uranium is pulverized and converted into uranium hexafluoride, the initial product for further processing, in three conversion plants supplied by the Freiburg businessman Albrecht Migule for DM15 million.
The Pakistani `atom shopping` has often had Bonn`s official approval. The Federal Economics Office (BAW) in Eschborn approved the export of an electronically controlled miling machine of the Munich-based Friedrich Deckel AG, which a secret U.S. study assesses as `extremely useful` for the `production of elements of a nuclear explosive system;` the Economics Ministry rejected as `unacceptable and irrelevant` the U.S. demand to guarantee that the machine not be used in the nuclear industry.
The export of a special press to compact hard-metal powder, which was supplied by Dieffenbacher GmbH & Co in the Swabian town of Eppingen in 1985, was also approved, even though the purpose of the machine (price DM1.3 million) was not kept secret. The responsible officials knew that the isostatic hot press was intended `for use in an ammunition factory for the manufacture of heavy-metal cores for projectiles.`
What types of cores could be meant was discovered post facto by experts of the Federal Research Ministry: `A highly efficient nuclear explosive` must be compressed to the largest possible extent, and `the easiest way` to achieve this is by using a press that is hardly different from the Dieffenbacher model.
The press and the milling machine, made in Germany, were so-called dual-use goods that can also be used for peaceful purposes and are therefore not contained in the embargo lists. However, the U.S. Administration had warned Bonn in time about such deals. U.S. intelligence services reported in 1979 that with the blueprints that he stole in Almelo, in the Netherlands, Abdil Khan was now in a position to build a uranium enrichment plant. To this end, he would buy `equipment on the European market,` they said.
U.S. President Jimmy Carter wrote to Chancellor Helmut Schmidt at the time that `we must be careful and prevent this program from beng completed.` U.S. experts specifically went to Bonn to instruct the responsible officials. They told them that two firms, the Hanau-based Leybold-Heraeus and the Renningen-based Team Industries, were already `doing business.`
Several weeks later, two managers of the enterprises mentioned informed the Economics Ministry that the deals had been carried out. Team Industries had just shipped 31 frequency converters to Pakistan, highly sensitive instruments that are used for the power supply of uranium centrifuges. Leydold-Heraeus manager Gotthard Lerch reported that his firm had supplied valves, vacuum pumps, brazing furnaces, measuring instruments, and a gas purifying plant `in the past 3 years`--together `worth DM1.3 million.`
Lerch also said that of course, `it cannot be totally ruled out` that such instruments are useful in a uranium enrichment plant. He said that in the future he will `keep an eye on the aspect of possible use.`
He did so. Meanwhile, the Cologne public prosecution is investigating Lerch, because he allegedly smuggled cases of blueprints for the building of a uranium centrifuge out of the Federal Republic. At the same time, he had a number of special instruments copied in Switzerland, the investigators say. The individual parts, which were declared `cooper pipes, boilers, and crane girders,` were transported across the French border by truck and were shipped in Air France planes from Lyon via Dubai to Pakistan.
The deal attracted attention after Swiss customs officers seized three specially large vacuum containers, so-called autoclaves.
The proceedings against Lerch have been dragging on for 2 years now. Only one West German exporter has been punished because of illegal nuclear exports to Pakistan: Albrecht Migule.
Quoting the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, the judges said at the time that `owing to a law enforcement deficit, the FRG must accept being accused of having failed to meet its contractual obligations.` They added that `the goals` of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty have been `attacked,` because the authorities made it so easy for Migule that he did not have to proceed `particularly cleverly.`
SPD Bundestag Deputy Hermann Bachmaier says that `the motto by which people in the Federal Economics Ministry work appears like a red thread in the files: You never hear anything, you never see anything--and in particular, you never block anything.` Bachmaier, who heads the Bonn Nuclear Investigation Commission, says: `Our doors are just open.`
The Karlsruhe Nuclear Research Center (KFK), which is 90 percent government-owned, also was involved in unrestrained exports. The KFK scientists supplied to their colleagues in Rawalpindi parts of a mass spectrometer, without which it is impossible to determine the degree of uranium enrichment. They trained Pakistani scientists, and even allowed one of them to visit their sanctary--the `hot cells` where plutonium is separated, and they passed on valuable know-how.
Even the Economics Ministry found the close contacts between Karlsruhe and the Pinstech laboratories `astounding.` The ministry said that whereas `constant efforts are being made to inhibit the Pakistani nuclear program,` the KFK `maintains very close contacts with relevant Pakistani authorities to convey know-how for just this nuclear program.` No conclusions were drawn.
The same thing happened when roughly 100 kg of specially hardened steel was shipped from Bremerhaven to Karachi on 9 August 1985. The hot goods on board the `Nedloyd Everest` were just being shipped across the Red Sea, when it dawned on the German authorities that it might perhaps be the so-called maraging steel of Arbed Saarstahl, which is subject to approval and is indispensable for the inside casing of uranium centrifuges, the rotors. The investigators later wondered why `so much fuss` was made about the shipment which involves a number of minor order addresses; however, the proceedings were discontinued.
No matter whether computer systems where involved that can be used for the `control of weapons systems,` highly sensitive electronic hardware or ring magnets which according to reports of the Federal Intelligence Service just corresponded to the dimensions of the Pakistani high-speed gas centrifuge of the second type (German version). A coincidence? The officials in the Bonn Economics Ministry always felt pestered, instead of feeling challenged to intensify their checks, when the Foreign Ministry passed on secret documents of U.S. intelligence services warning about planned deliveries.
Such `anonymous papers usually end up in my wastebasket,` Buenter Welzien of the Federal Economics Institute furiously wrote to the Economics Ministry, wondering whether Bonn had `ever bombarded the Department of Commerce in a similar way?` Even when the Americans asked Bonn to find out about negotiations conducted by German firms on the possible sale of so-called cryotons--tiny electronic elements with which the time a bomb detonates can be determined with an accuracy of one-millionth of a second--the Federal Economics Ministry`s reaction was particularly rough. A responsible official called Spies scribbled on a piece of paper: `I reject such employment measures on principle.`
However, the request had not been that absurd, after all. Rudolf Maximilian Ortmayer, at the time NTG manager, reportedly also negotiated in Pakistan with a man called Sulfikar Ahmed Butt--the very Pakistani who had attracted attention in the United States when he was trying, via agents, to purchase 50 cryotrons from EG & G Inc. Wellesley, Massachusetts, the only producer in the world. Butt, who is considered to be the chief buyer for the Pakistani bomb builders, reportedly presented to Ortmayer a comprehensive wish-list.
However, the negotiations were only more specific regarding tritium: Butt ordered 10 grams.
The nuclear buyer soon was not interested any more in the heavy water clearing plant that the Pakistanis initially planned to buy, although Ortmayer had engineered everything so nicely to legalize the deal. He invited the responsible official of the Federal Economics Institute, Manfred Ruck, and the Bonn expert spies to see him in Gelnhausen. Having a glass of sherry, the gentlemen discussed the export wishes.
Ruck wrote to his colleague Spies that the plant is absolutely harmless, comparable, `in a figurative sense, to a drinking water treatment plant.`
The application was approved.
Abdul Qadir khan stole nuclear technology
[FROM DER SPIEGEL, FEB. 20, 1989]
West German firms supplied parts and know-how.
The laboratory is hidden in a desert at the foot of the Kashmir mountains. Anti-aircraft artillery protects the area, soldiers guard the doorways into and out of the laboratories, storehouses, and underground vaults.
In the laboratory, generators whir, selected scientists operate highly sensitive aggregates; measuring instruments, vacuum pumps, and automated precision tools work around the clock.
In the nuclear plant, which forms part of the nuclear center of Pinstech near Rawalpindi, elements for the Islamic bomb are produced in strict secrecy--with machinery made in Germany.
The German equipment--for the time being the last delivery--was tested on site by Peter Finke, 45, on behalf of the Gelnhausen-based firm New Technologies (NTG). In July last year, the physicist showed his Pakistani colleagues for 2 weeks how to operate the complicated glove-compartment plant for the recovery of tritium.
Since then the scientist (`I am a pacifist`) has had pangs of consicence; possibly the equipment could be `converted,` he says. He stresses that anyway, a `pure training plant` was supplied--allegedly, in order to clean the tritium-contaminated Pakistani nuclear reactor in Karachi, which is, however, 1,100 km away.
Radioactive tritium is sold on the international black market of weapons-grade nuclear products at even higher prices than plutonium. A few grams of this gas are sufficient to increase the power of an explosive `substantially,` says nuclear weapons scientist Gerhard Locke, 56, of the Euskirchen Fraunhofer Institute. Therefore, `the second bomb generation of the lighter type` cannot do `without tritium,` he says.
However, the artificially produced superheavy hydrogen decomposes quickly into helium. Therefore, it must be constantly renewed.
That is precisely what the NTG plant can do: Every day, five grams of tritium can be recovered--a quantity which according to Locke is `incredibly large.` That is why Albert Farwick, chief of the Nanau public prosecution which is investigating NTG, considers `some civil use practically inconceivable.`
There is no doubt that Munir Ahmed Khan, chief of the Pakistan Nuclear Authority, with whom Finke already had a cup of tea, has secretly developed his country into a nuclear power; the bomb puzzle is complete. He had many individual parts--ranging from transformer sheets to uranium conversion--supplied by small West German firms, using a network of agents to this end.
The special pipes and supersolid steel from Singen and Saarbruecken, the mass spectrometers and magnets from Bremen and Bonn were made-to-measure for Khan`s program which is carried out in a number of nuclear centers:
In Rawalpindi, where in addition to the bomb plant, a 24-year-old U.S. research reactor is in operation and a reprocessing plant produces about 20 kg of plutonium every year;
In Kahuta, Abdil-Kadir Khan, who is admired as `the new Einstein,` meanwhile has produced more than 100 kg highly enriched weapons-grade uranium, using ultra-highspeed centrifuges;
At the Dera-Ghazi-Khan center, natural uranium is pulverized and converted into uranium hexafluoride, the initial product for further processing, in three conversion plants supplied by the Freiburg businessman Albrecht Migule for DM15 million.
The Pakistani `atom shopping` has often had Bonn`s official approval. The Federal Economics Office (BAW) in Eschborn approved the export of an electronically controlled miling machine of the Munich-based Friedrich Deckel AG, which a secret U.S. study assesses as `extremely useful` for the `production of elements of a nuclear explosive system;` the Economics Ministry rejected as `unacceptable and irrelevant` the U.S. demand to guarantee that the machine not be used in the nuclear industry.
The export of a special press to compact hard-metal powder, which was supplied by Dieffenbacher GmbH & Co in the Swabian town of Eppingen in 1985, was also approved, even though the purpose of the machine (price DM1.3 million) was not kept secret. The responsible officials knew that the isostatic hot press was intended `for use in an ammunition factory for the manufacture of heavy-metal cores for projectiles.`
What types of cores could be meant was discovered post facto by experts of the Federal Research Ministry: `A highly efficient nuclear explosive` must be compressed to the largest possible extent, and `the easiest way` to achieve this is by using a press that is hardly different from the Dieffenbacher model.
The press and the milling machine, made in Germany, were so-called dual-use goods that can also be used for peaceful purposes and are therefore not contained in the embargo lists. However, the U.S. Administration had warned Bonn in time about such deals. U.S. intelligence services reported in 1979 that with the blueprints that he stole in Almelo, in the Netherlands, Abdil Khan was now in a position to build a uranium enrichment plant. To this end, he would buy `equipment on the European market,` they said.
U.S. President Jimmy Carter wrote to Chancellor Helmut Schmidt at the time that `we must be careful and prevent this program from beng completed.` U.S. experts specifically went to Bonn to instruct the responsible officials. They told them that two firms, the Hanau-based Leybold-Heraeus and the Renningen-based Team Industries, were already `doing business.`
Several weeks later, two managers of the enterprises mentioned informed the Economics Ministry that the deals had been carried out. Team Industries had just shipped 31 frequency converters to Pakistan, highly sensitive instruments that are used for the power supply of uranium centrifuges. Leydold-Heraeus manager Gotthard Lerch reported that his firm had supplied valves, vacuum pumps, brazing furnaces, measuring instruments, and a gas purifying plant `in the past 3 years`--together `worth DM1.3 million.`
Lerch also said that of course, `it cannot be totally ruled out` that such instruments are useful in a uranium enrichment plant. He said that in the future he will `keep an eye on the aspect of possible use.`
He did so. Meanwhile, the Cologne public prosecution is investigating Lerch, because he allegedly smuggled cases of blueprints for the building of a uranium centrifuge out of the Federal Republic. At the same time, he had a number of special instruments copied in Switzerland, the investigators say. The individual parts, which were declared `cooper pipes, boilers, and crane girders,` were transported across the French border by truck and were shipped in Air France planes from Lyon via Dubai to Pakistan.
The deal attracted attention after Swiss customs officers seized three specially large vacuum containers, so-called autoclaves.
The proceedings against Lerch have been dragging on for 2 years now. Only one West German exporter has been punished because of illegal nuclear exports to Pakistan: Albrecht Migule.
Quoting the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, the judges said at the time that `owing to a law enforcement deficit, the FRG must accept being accused of having failed to meet its contractual obligations.` They added that `the goals` of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty have been `attacked,` because the authorities made it so easy for Migule that he did not have to proceed `particularly cleverly.`
SPD Bundestag Deputy Hermann Bachmaier says that `the motto by which people in the Federal Economics Ministry work appears like a red thread in the files: You never hear anything, you never see anything--and in particular, you never block anything.` Bachmaier, who heads the Bonn Nuclear Investigation Commission, says: `Our doors are just open.`
The Karlsruhe Nuclear Research Center (KFK), which is 90 percent government-owned, also was involved in unrestrained exports. The KFK scientists supplied to their colleagues in Rawalpindi parts of a mass spectrometer, without which it is impossible to determine the degree of uranium enrichment. They trained Pakistani scientists, and even allowed one of them to visit their sanctary--the `hot cells` where plutonium is separated, and they passed on valuable know-how.
Even the Economics Ministry found the close contacts between Karlsruhe and the Pinstech laboratories `astounding.` The ministry said that whereas `constant efforts are being made to inhibit the Pakistani nuclear program,` the KFK `maintains very close contacts with relevant Pakistani authorities to convey know-how for just this nuclear program.` No conclusions were drawn.
The same thing happened when roughly 100 kg of specially hardened steel was shipped from Bremerhaven to Karachi on 9 August 1985. The hot goods on board the `Nedloyd Everest` were just being shipped across the Red Sea, when it dawned on the German authorities that it might perhaps be the so-called maraging steel of Arbed Saarstahl, which is subject to approval and is indispensable for the inside casing of uranium centrifuges, the rotors. The investigators later wondered why `so much fuss` was made about the shipment which involves a number of minor order addresses; however, the proceedings were discontinued.
No matter whether computer systems where involved that can be used for the `control of weapons systems,` highly sensitive electronic hardware or ring magnets which according to reports of the Federal Intelligence Service just corresponded to the dimensions of the Pakistani high-speed gas centrifuge of the second type (German version). A coincidence? The officials in the Bonn Economics Ministry always felt pestered, instead of feeling challenged to intensify their checks, when the Foreign Ministry passed on secret documents of U.S. intelligence services warning about planned deliveries.
Such `anonymous papers usually end up in my wastebasket,` Buenter Welzien of the Federal Economics Institute furiously wrote to the Economics Ministry, wondering whether Bonn had `ever bombarded the Department of Commerce in a similar way?` Even when the Americans asked Bonn to find out about negotiations conducted by German firms on the possible sale of so-called cryotons--tiny electronic elements with which the time a bomb detonates can be determined with an accuracy of one-millionth of a second--the Federal Economics Ministry`s reaction was particularly rough. A responsible official called Spies scribbled on a piece of paper: `I reject such employment measures on principle.`
However, the request had not been that absurd, after all. Rudolf Maximilian Ortmayer, at the time NTG manager, reportedly also negotiated in Pakistan with a man called Sulfikar Ahmed Butt--the very Pakistani who had attracted attention in the United States when he was trying, via agents, to purchase 50 cryotrons from EG & G Inc. Wellesley, Massachusetts, the only producer in the world. Butt, who is considered to be the chief buyer for the Pakistani bomb builders, reportedly presented to Ortmayer a comprehensive wish-list.
However, the negotiations were only more specific regarding tritium: Butt ordered 10 grams.
The nuclear buyer soon was not interested any more in the heavy water clearing plant that the Pakistanis initially planned to buy, although Ortmayer had engineered everything so nicely to legalize the deal. He invited the responsible official of the Federal Economics Institute, Manfred Ruck, and the Bonn expert spies to see him in Gelnhausen. Having a glass of sherry, the gentlemen discussed the export wishes.
Ruck wrote to his colleague Spies that the plant is absolutely harmless, comparable, `in a figurative sense, to a drinking water treatment plant.`
The application was approved.
#110 Posted by arjun_m on October 28, 2002 8:08:11 am
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#109 Posted by Urstruly on October 28, 2002 8:08:10 am
Arjunm,
The details of the court case proceedings against Mr. Khan are mentioned in detail in S.M. Zafar`s book ``mere mash-hoor muqaddame`` (My famous court cases). Mr. Zafar has been one of the top most constitutional and criminal case lawyers in Pakistan; in Ayub government he was minister of Law; and he was the chief defence lawyer in Dutch court alongwith a team of dutch, british, and pakistani lawyers. At the end of his book he has also printed some of the transcripts pertaining to the case in question. An on line version of the book is not available.
You are the expert on on line searches, I am pretty sure you will find something on this case eventually. The link that you have provided does not address the point in question. I never questioned whether Pakistan provided technology to Korea or not.
#108 Posted by arjun_m on October 28, 2002 7:27:53 am
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#107 Posted by RLeonard on October 28, 2002 7:27:53 am
AAmir
Without interrupting your conversation with URst or Arjun,
1) Homiyar Bhabha was a Zoroastrian - descendant of the kind that escaped Persia from invading Arab hordes
2) Believe it or not - many European publications have openly accused Qadeer Khan of stealing papers from Euro labs in a not so discreet manner - I leave it at that
Without interrupting your conversation with URst or Arjun,
1) Homiyar Bhabha was a Zoroastrian - descendant of the kind that escaped Persia from invading Arab hordes
2) Believe it or not - many European publications have openly accused Qadeer Khan of stealing papers from Euro labs in a not so discreet manner - I leave it at that
#106 Posted by RLeonard on October 28, 2002 7:27:53 am
Zafar
By flavoring potato chips in sambar you wold probably target only the high-born Brahmins who are not Dravids, if you need to target the Dravid sgement you would have to package it as `` Sweet Tamil Renaissance`` potato chips - demographics of TN suggest that this would be prudent because Brahmins make up about 2 % of TN.
By flavoring potato chips in sambar you wold probably target only the high-born Brahmins who are not Dravids, if you need to target the Dravid sgement you would have to package it as `` Sweet Tamil Renaissance`` potato chips - demographics of TN suggest that this would be prudent because Brahmins make up about 2 % of TN.
#105 Posted by arjun_m on October 28, 2002 7:27:53 am
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#104 Posted by Urstruly on October 28, 2002 6:32:14 am
Shankar 101
I did not understand a word you have written. I think technical subjects must be addressed objectively regradless of who says what; and besides you are laughing by typing your laugh. Are you OK?
Arjunm #98
That is not what your ilk was saying a week ago but that is ok. Are you sure this time you are gonna stick with this stance?
Besides, I do not understand if, as you say, Paksitan already had technology from Holland then why get it from China; just to incease costs? and if Paksitan got it from China then it must have not ``stolen`` from Holland. And keep it in mind that a high level court of law has exhonorated Dr. Khan from any wrongdoing. I dont think there is a law in any part of world yet that prohibits someone carrying his knowledge in his head.
#103 Posted by AAmir on October 27, 2002 9:29:49 pm
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#102 Posted by ZafarA on October 27, 2002 6:14:46 pm
Reply Shankar #93
Lajawab business plan! You are DEFINITELY from Bombay. But should also have mentioned Lajawab Shakahari Potato Chips, Lajawab Ayurvedic Potato Chips, Lajawab Shiv Shahi Potato Chips, Lajawab Shonar Bangla (fish flavoured) Potato Chips, Lajawab Munnetra (sambar flavoured) Potato Chips, etc. etc. which are, of course, part of Lajawab Inc’s strategy to gain regional market share…and then on, of course, to Lajawab White Picket Fence Potato Chips, which is part of the International Strategy…but at home, of course, Lajawab Zenana (rose water flavoured) Potato Chips is bound to be a big hit in NWFP, and it’s important to secure home market first…you need to spell these things out, see…
Reply Urstruly #94
Basically vhaaat you seem to be saying is that our potato chips are better than yours. Am I understanding you correctly?
Lajawab business plan! You are DEFINITELY from Bombay. But should also have mentioned Lajawab Shakahari Potato Chips, Lajawab Ayurvedic Potato Chips, Lajawab Shiv Shahi Potato Chips, Lajawab Shonar Bangla (fish flavoured) Potato Chips, Lajawab Munnetra (sambar flavoured) Potato Chips, etc. etc. which are, of course, part of Lajawab Inc’s strategy to gain regional market share…and then on, of course, to Lajawab White Picket Fence Potato Chips, which is part of the International Strategy…but at home, of course, Lajawab Zenana (rose water flavoured) Potato Chips is bound to be a big hit in NWFP, and it’s important to secure home market first…you need to spell these things out, see…
Reply Urstruly #94
Basically vhaaat you seem to be saying is that our potato chips are better than yours. Am I understanding you correctly?
#101 Posted by shankar on October 27, 2002 6:01:16 pm
Urstruly,
{{This is not a commie, or socialist or Mullah`s agenda....this is a human agenda. This is a matter of common sense and prejudices have no room here.}}
hahahaha!! you gotta be kidding me! This is pinko socialist BULLCRAP...man you sound EXACTLY like George Fernandes from the 70s! First thing Janata Party did when they came to power was throw out Coke & IBM...young Georgies answer to India`s economic ``miracle``...
Yo! Just look over the border...that crap has been ``sold`` to us Indians & its failed miserably....if you want Pakistan to make those same mistakes...be my guest!
{{This is not a commie, or socialist or Mullah`s agenda....this is a human agenda. This is a matter of common sense and prejudices have no room here.}}
hahahaha!! you gotta be kidding me! This is pinko socialist BULLCRAP...man you sound EXACTLY like George Fernandes from the 70s! First thing Janata Party did when they came to power was throw out Coke & IBM...young Georgies answer to India`s economic ``miracle``...
Yo! Just look over the border...that crap has been ``sold`` to us Indians & its failed miserably....if you want Pakistan to make those same mistakes...be my guest!
#100 Posted by macgupta on October 27, 2002 3:34:49 pm
India does not count foreign investment in the standard way, and hence grossly underestimates it, by as much as a factor of 2.
#99 Posted by sadna on October 27, 2002 12:35:15 pm
When the Tatas first came out with Tata Iodised salt in shiny packages, I decided the Tatas made enough money as it was and I wasn`t helping them put local salt producers out of business through mere brand muscle. So whenever I went to the grocery and asked for salt, and the shopkeeper invariably handed me Tata salt, I would insist no I want one of the other ones in the polythene bags. And he would always make a face because he thought I was being a cheapo :)
#98 Posted by arjun_m on October 27, 2002 10:25:44 am
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#97 Posted by arjun_m on October 27, 2002 8:27:25 am
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#96 Posted by arjun_m on October 27, 2002 8:27:25 am
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#95 Posted by Urstruly on October 27, 2002 8:27:24 am
Dost Mitter
I did reply your points. I said I that I agree with you word by word and you can re-wtite your post replacing the word India with pakistan.
I did reply your points. I said I that I agree with you word by word and you can re-wtite your post replacing the word India with pakistan.
#94 Posted by Urstruly on October 27, 2002 5:45:11 am
Shankar
The answer to all your questions/proposals is very simple. The local baker does not live and work in a vacuum. What is he to do when his wife starts asking for a soap made by MNCs or imported ones to take a bath; what about his son who now wants a Rs. 35 can of Pepsi and wont drink local made Rs. 12 Pepsi; what about his daughter who wont use local made Medora make-up and wants Revlon from Paris. Similarly, his poor customers are trapped in their own vicious circles. If he (customer) is a part of bureaucracy, he will become corrupt to keep up with others. And if he does that he wont buy from local bakery because now it is below him. So as he gets corrupt he makes 10 others around him to be corrupt too. That is the reason I say that MNCs actually reduce people`s buying power, they make them poor. Now what about 100s of millions of those, who do not have a post where they can exercise their powers.....what about the daily wage earner. How is he supposed to increase his income...by working two shifts on a back breaking job? What about a farmer...he can only produce so much from his fields....but a MNC processing food wont buy from him because they can get it cheaper from Brundi.
This is not a commie, or socialist or Mullah`s agenda....this is a human agenda. This is a matter of common sense and prejudices have no room here.
#93 Posted by shankar on October 26, 2002 7:03:22 pm
Urstruly,
I`m not an economist; so I would be honored if you explain why the following business plan for the local bakery could`nt work...
a) The local bakery keeps on selling the ``no-name`` brand at a cheap price to the poor people. You said he was making a profit--heck, a profit is a profit...
b) ALSO make part of the same product packaged nicely to the suckers who want to pay for fancy packaging...call it ``Lajawab Potato Chips``;
..who knows that poor person, tomorrow,may be a recipient of US aid money & become richer...poor people have a higher sense of ``brand loyalty``....even when he squanders the aid, he can always revert to buying the no-name brand when he`s kinda..broke...
c) make some MINOR changes (with minimal extra expense) if he has to go around some ``truth in advertising`` laws (if they exist in Pakistan) & make a fancier brand called ``Lajawab Potato Chips``---BADSHAHI brand...I mean premium...is-special potato chips...meant only to be served in parties thrown by wives of generals, feudals & the elite of Pakistan...
d)bribe some govt officials (heck that ``cost of business`` makes up for the taxes you dont pay) to have exclusive contract for all the Govt ``sponsored`` diplomatic Iftaar parties..where only BADSHAHI brand of potato chips are served ...will make a difference if you add...``proudly made in Pakistan; by Pakistanis`` on a ditinctly discreet part of the label...
c) pay the local mullah a few rupees to give him the ``honor`` of blessing the Potato chips...to ensure it is made & inspected by strict Islamic shariat standards...you know like ``kosher`` food...people go for crap like that..kind of makes them feel pious...
I could go on & on, with suggestions...
Heck, even AnNy will give up Pringles & buy Lajawab Potato chips!!..Ok..being a Gujju (cant make them suckers for too long), she will, after a few tries, conclude that there is NO difference between Badshahi & no-name brand...but then I get a sneaky feeling that there is no shortage of PERMANENT suckers in Pakistan...or elsewhere in this world..
You know what Pakistan economy`s BIGGEST problem is?!
You have a tremendous shortage of besharam bania weasels who will adapt to any adversity, any laws, any competition, any country & STILL make a profit...
I`m not an economist; so I would be honored if you explain why the following business plan for the local bakery could`nt work...
a) The local bakery keeps on selling the ``no-name`` brand at a cheap price to the poor people. You said he was making a profit--heck, a profit is a profit...
b) ALSO make part of the same product packaged nicely to the suckers who want to pay for fancy packaging...call it ``Lajawab Potato Chips``;
..who knows that poor person, tomorrow,may be a recipient of US aid money & become richer...poor people have a higher sense of ``brand loyalty``....even when he squanders the aid, he can always revert to buying the no-name brand when he`s kinda..broke...
c) make some MINOR changes (with minimal extra expense) if he has to go around some ``truth in advertising`` laws (if they exist in Pakistan) & make a fancier brand called ``Lajawab Potato Chips``---BADSHAHI brand...I mean premium...is-special potato chips...meant only to be served in parties thrown by wives of generals, feudals & the elite of Pakistan...
d)bribe some govt officials (heck that ``cost of business`` makes up for the taxes you dont pay) to have exclusive contract for all the Govt ``sponsored`` diplomatic Iftaar parties..where only BADSHAHI brand of potato chips are served ...will make a difference if you add...``proudly made in Pakistan; by Pakistanis`` on a ditinctly discreet part of the label...
c) pay the local mullah a few rupees to give him the ``honor`` of blessing the Potato chips...to ensure it is made & inspected by strict Islamic shariat standards...you know like ``kosher`` food...people go for crap like that..kind of makes them feel pious...
I could go on & on, with suggestions...
Heck, even AnNy will give up Pringles & buy Lajawab Potato chips!!..Ok..being a Gujju (cant make them suckers for too long), she will, after a few tries, conclude that there is NO difference between Badshahi & no-name brand...but then I get a sneaky feeling that there is no shortage of PERMANENT suckers in Pakistan...or elsewhere in this world..
You know what Pakistan economy`s BIGGEST problem is?!
You have a tremendous shortage of besharam bania weasels who will adapt to any adversity, any laws, any competition, any country & STILL make a profit...
#92 Posted by jay on October 26, 2002 7:03:21 pm
On Zia,
``God forbid that a day comes when King Faisal of Saudi Arabia visits Pakistan and is received at the airport by Maulana Mufti Mahmood as the prime minister of Pakistan. Oh God, have mercy on me. Take my life away before I see that day.``
Above is a from a letter in dawn, the words of Z A Bhutto.
Zia knew that things are going bad for pakistan, the jihadists are coming to the frefront. Mufti Mohamoods son is pak candidate for PM. Zia some how lnew the turn of events and felt really sad for Bhutto. So what he did in killing bhutto was in fact a help.
Jay been ahmed aal romair
Faisalabad
``God forbid that a day comes when King Faisal of Saudi Arabia visits Pakistan and is received at the airport by Maulana Mufti Mahmood as the prime minister of Pakistan. Oh God, have mercy on me. Take my life away before I see that day.``
Above is a from a letter in dawn, the words of Z A Bhutto.
Zia knew that things are going bad for pakistan, the jihadists are coming to the frefront. Mufti Mohamoods son is pak candidate for PM. Zia some how lnew the turn of events and felt really sad for Bhutto. So what he did in killing bhutto was in fact a help.
Jay been ahmed aal romair
Faisalabad
#91 Posted by jay on October 26, 2002 5:21:53 pm
Prem, zafar, etc.
In some of the central values that charecterise pakistanis, tahmed and romair are not very different. Most important is the uncountables of pakistan, for both they remain outside the statistics, the jihadic fodder. Next is the notion of jihad. Tahmed has posted several times, jihad as the fight againt poverty, against ignorence blah blah. But for the thousands that stream out of the madrassas, jihad is killing of kafirs, and even the great human being, tahmed has refused to say ``that killing kafirs is not jihad``.
What is imporatant to both and for that matter most of the pakistanis is to present a whitewashed image of pakistan. To give an example, when I talk of the rule of law in india, it is sridhar first to point out about the kavery water dispute and supreme court order. It is another indian who points out about the surge in pakistani haterd in india.
In several posts, YLH had said that there are roads in pakistan named after Abdus Salam, no one, not even the great tahmed dared to tell YLH, hey man this is not correct, the same goes with romair. In fact there is only one pakistani with a mind of his own.
In some of the central values that charecterise pakistanis, tahmed and romair are not very different. Most important is the uncountables of pakistan, for both they remain outside the statistics, the jihadic fodder. Next is the notion of jihad. Tahmed has posted several times, jihad as the fight againt poverty, against ignorence blah blah. But for the thousands that stream out of the madrassas, jihad is killing of kafirs, and even the great human being, tahmed has refused to say ``that killing kafirs is not jihad``.
What is imporatant to both and for that matter most of the pakistanis is to present a whitewashed image of pakistan. To give an example, when I talk of the rule of law in india, it is sridhar first to point out about the kavery water dispute and supreme court order. It is another indian who points out about the surge in pakistani haterd in india.
In several posts, YLH had said that there are roads in pakistan named after Abdus Salam, no one, not even the great tahmed dared to tell YLH, hey man this is not correct, the same goes with romair. In fact there is only one pakistani with a mind of his own.
#90 Posted by Urstruly on October 26, 2002 2:22:31 pm
Arjun-m
I think Hindus have a very short memory; until a week ago they were accusing Paksitan of being incompetent and importing nuclear and missile technology from China and N. Korea and just in week now it is Paksitan supplying technology to N. Korea. sharam tum ko magar aati nahin.
#89 Posted by Prem on October 26, 2002 10:50:04 am
Yaar arjun # 88, why are you so obsessive? :( Do you think anybody is going to listen to your arguments -whatever they be- if you act mean-spirited? Don`t you think that is exactly how you might come across to your audience-presumably the Pakistanis?
Thoda socho...
Thoda socho...
#88 Posted by arjun_m on October 26, 2002 10:14:11 am
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#87 Posted by arjun_m on October 26, 2002 9:18:54 am
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#85 Posted by rsaxena on October 26, 2002 7:17:30 am
re: arjun
{And what exactly is wrong with the consumer being able to choose? }
...this is why mullahism is incompatible with capitalism...they are never able to let go of their instincts (that are beaten into them) to tell people what to do...``you must buy soap that smells like this``...``you must like this type of potato chip``...``you are wrong, and will be punished on judgement day``...
...capitalism, at its core, is about letting market forces, of which the consumer is a central part, drive economic activity...which means the consumer decides what he wants (there is no right or wrong, just choice), entrepreneurs try to meet the consumer`s needs, and other entrepreneurs try to compete with better and/or cheaper products...there is no role for some dictator or mullah in any of this, which is a bitter pill for the likes of urstruly to deal with....
{And what exactly is wrong with the consumer being able to choose? }
...this is why mullahism is incompatible with capitalism...they are never able to let go of their instincts (that are beaten into them) to tell people what to do...``you must buy soap that smells like this``...``you must like this type of potato chip``...``you are wrong, and will be punished on judgement day``...
...capitalism, at its core, is about letting market forces, of which the consumer is a central part, drive economic activity...which means the consumer decides what he wants (there is no right or wrong, just choice), entrepreneurs try to meet the consumer`s needs, and other entrepreneurs try to compete with better and/or cheaper products...there is no role for some dictator or mullah in any of this, which is a bitter pill for the likes of urstruly to deal with....
#83 Posted by Urstruly on October 26, 2002 7:17:30 am
Arjun_M
At the time of partition, both wings of Paksitan had about 600 Industrial units (quite pathetic ones). And in early 90s, only the Karachi Industrial zone had over 6000 Industrial units. Only Karachi Steel Mills employs 30,000 people. This is an astrononmical growth for a country like Paksitan. However, unfortunately, this increase in Industry is in the consumer goods area. That $9 billion (I thought it was 6) is from agri and and this sector. The income from defence technology is not disclosed - but according to defence journals Paksitan is one of the major exporter from Asia in this area.
At the time of partition, both wings of Paksitan had about 600 Industrial units (quite pathetic ones). And in early 90s, only the Karachi Industrial zone had over 6000 Industrial units. Only Karachi Steel Mills employs 30,000 people. This is an astrononmical growth for a country like Paksitan. However, unfortunately, this increase in Industry is in the consumer goods area. That $9 billion (I thought it was 6) is from agri and and this sector. The income from defence technology is not disclosed - but according to defence journals Paksitan is one of the major exporter from Asia in this area.
#82 Posted by ZafarA on October 26, 2002 12:15:29 am
#76 by Urstruly on October 25, 2002 12:29pm PT
``The society is thus clearly divided into two - haves and have-nots.``
Mashallah. Why didn`t anybody else point that out? Now you know why I read all your posts twice. You and Lajwanti are the only truly original thinkers on chowk.
(And what about Kashmir, jee? Phir bhool gaye?)
Your fan
Zafar
``The society is thus clearly divided into two - haves and have-nots.``
Mashallah. Why didn`t anybody else point that out? Now you know why I read all your posts twice. You and Lajwanti are the only truly original thinkers on chowk.
(And what about Kashmir, jee? Phir bhool gaye?)
Your fan
Zafar
#81 Posted by ZafarA on October 26, 2002 12:15:29 am
Reply Stuka #73
``What does that bring us...a perverted saccharine sweet unrealistic perspective of romantic relationships and high cholestrol??``
The ability to deal with ANYTHING without feeling overwhelmed or out of depth. One thinks: ``Yes, this is quite difficult, but it`s nothing compared to bashing up sixteen villains on motorbikes while wearing two pears of sun glasses, having one hand tied behind one`s back AND also participating in seventeen long song and dance numbers and thirty-seven constume changes, while recognising your long lost mother and carrying on phone dialogue with corrupt police officer. I CAN DO IT! MaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaN!!!!!!`` (``Betaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!``)
As for romance shomance, it gives one something to hope for EVEN when life is disappointingly not providing.
And cholesterol? Sala, how dare you claim to be a Punjabi? You`re probably from Coorg or some place like that. Punjabi log cholesterol ka naam bhi nahiN lethe, don`t you know anything?
``What does that bring us...a perverted saccharine sweet unrealistic perspective of romantic relationships and high cholestrol??``
The ability to deal with ANYTHING without feeling overwhelmed or out of depth. One thinks: ``Yes, this is quite difficult, but it`s nothing compared to bashing up sixteen villains on motorbikes while wearing two pears of sun glasses, having one hand tied behind one`s back AND also participating in seventeen long song and dance numbers and thirty-seven constume changes, while recognising your long lost mother and carrying on phone dialogue with corrupt police officer. I CAN DO IT! MaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaN!!!!!!`` (``Betaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!``)
As for romance shomance, it gives one something to hope for EVEN when life is disappointingly not providing.
And cholesterol? Sala, how dare you claim to be a Punjabi? You`re probably from Coorg or some place like that. Punjabi log cholesterol ka naam bhi nahiN lethe, don`t you know anything?
#80 Posted by ZafarA on October 26, 2002 12:15:29 am
Reply Prem #72
``Liquor it must be....how else can a decidely astute guy be so consistently angry? And why else would a man of ANY intelligence equate tahmed with romair?``
Speed psychosis. (Jay, man, just get some SLEEP!)
``Liquor it must be....how else can a decidely astute guy be so consistently angry? And why else would a man of ANY intelligence equate tahmed with romair?``
Speed psychosis. (Jay, man, just get some SLEEP!)
#79 Posted by ZafarA on October 26, 2002 12:15:29 am
Reply Harimau #67
``At least, we are safe from an invasion by the Chinese! Let them try saying Sravanabelagola.``
I would be less sanguine if I were you...one word they have absolutely no problem with is ``Amma``.
``At least, we are safe from an invasion by the Chinese! Let them try saying Sravanabelagola.``
I would be less sanguine if I were you...one word they have absolutely no problem with is ``Amma``.
#78 Posted by rsridhar on October 25, 2002 4:52:57 pm
re:#66 by jay
Jay,
Did you hear the news about karnataka govt not honoring Supreme Court order of releasing Cauveri water for TN? What do you think of it? Are our own leaders following the legal system? Do not criticise Pakistanis or anyone else for weaknesses we all possess.
If you must compete, compete with China. Now, there is a tough competitor and he has left India far behind. As someone said, you cannot become a good wrestler if you go on wrestling with the weak.
Sridhar
Jay,
Did you hear the news about karnataka govt not honoring Supreme Court order of releasing Cauveri water for TN? What do you think of it? Are our own leaders following the legal system? Do not criticise Pakistanis or anyone else for weaknesses we all possess.
If you must compete, compete with China. Now, there is a tough competitor and he has left India far behind. As someone said, you cannot become a good wrestler if you go on wrestling with the weak.
Sridhar
#77 Posted by arjun_m on October 25, 2002 3:17:50 pm
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#76 Posted by Urstruly on October 25, 2002 12:29:05 pm
Dost-Mitter # 61
You can write your post again, word by word, just replacing the word India with Pakistan. That is exactly what has happened in Paksitan. As a matter of fact, Paksitan gave up on scocialist economy, as soon as the Bhutto was hanged. During late seveties and up until early 90s there has been an astronomical growth in industrialization. There are several Induastrial zones and export processing zones set up during that time period just right in front of me; 80% of that industrialization was in consumer goods, mostly from foreign and especially Arab investments and only 20% was the capital industry; but it ranged from aircraft manufacturing, to defence technology on one end and from automotive to cement to potato chips on the other; later sector being a private one.
What ails Paksitan, however, currently is not the industrialization but 90% of it is because corrupt politicians and generals have stolen billions without impunity. That impacts the economy in a very different way. It is not a failure of economy but it is that of governance.
However, the point that I have been raising in my last posts was not to compare the economies of two countries but it was that of how we measure the economies.
Purchasing Power Parity bases is a very dangerous idea for a nation to perpetuate. It means that there is a target market in the country where a certain segment of the society can pay the prices of consumer goods in amounts equal to the prices in Western country (US$ in particualr). So the foreign investment targets that segment of the society. When they start selling these products at those prices, the prices of locally manufactured goods also have to be increased to give consumer an impression that they are equally good. I give you an example:
During my final year of engineering I started a part time employement at a potato chips plant for my dissertation. This plant was an Arab-Pak joint venture. The small packets of the size that are sold here at the vending machines, were sold there at the price of Rs. 15 in early 90s. The potato at that time was around Rs. 3-5 per kilo. One sack of potato chips is usually made from half of a medium size potato costing approx. Rs. 0.15. The foil packaging was expansive and it cost about a Rs. 1 per pack. The other overheads would cost a total of about Rs. 5. Taxes were Rs. 3. And was sold at a profit of Rs. 6-7. Whereas, at local backery you could buy potato chips for Rs. 10 per pound. Local bakery did not pay any direct tax. But consumer psychology dictates him that the potato chips in shiney foil packing are much better than the bakery ones. In order for bakery to compete, they artificially increase the price because consumer psychology is built up that more pricey item is better. But by doing so bakery loses its low paying customers. So the PPP is working very well for foreign investment and government because government is earning taxes, but a consumer is getting poorer and poorer. The society is thus clearly divided into two - haves and have-nots.
That is the reason governments also perpetuate the concept of PPP.
#75 Posted by harimau on October 25, 2002 9:25:29 am
Ref ZafarA #68
[Harimau, what is diamond in Tamil, please? I KNOW the word is NOT Love Queen...]
Funny you should ask.
It is Vairam as in Vairamuthu (literally, Diamond-Pearl or Heera-Moti), the man who penned the song that Sangilikkaruppan, father of Love Queen, refuses to translate.
[Harimau, what is diamond in Tamil, please? I KNOW the word is NOT Love Queen...]
Funny you should ask.
It is Vairam as in Vairamuthu (literally, Diamond-Pearl or Heera-Moti), the man who penned the song that Sangilikkaruppan, father of Love Queen, refuses to translate.
#74 Posted by harimau on October 25, 2002 9:25:29 am
Ref Jay #66
Just brilliant, positively brilliant analysis of what is wrong with Pakistan.
Not one Pakistani has come up with a response to you because you speak the truth.
Just brilliant, positively brilliant analysis of what is wrong with Pakistan.
Not one Pakistani has come up with a response to you because you speak the truth.
#73 Posted by Prem on October 25, 2002 9:25:28 am
re: Zafar # 69
Liquor it must be....how else can a decidely astute guy be so consistently angry? And why else would a man of ANY intelligence equate tahmed with romair?
Liquor it must be....how else can a decidely astute guy be so consistently angry? And why else would a man of ANY intelligence equate tahmed with romair?
#72 Posted by stuka on October 25, 2002 9:25:28 am
Zafar:
``Brought up on Raj Kapoor movies and butter chicken. What more could you ask for?``
What does that bring us...a perverted saccharine sweet unrealistic perspective of romantic relationships and high cholestrol??
No benefit yaar...
:(
``Brought up on Raj Kapoor movies and butter chicken. What more could you ask for?``
What does that bring us...a perverted saccharine sweet unrealistic perspective of romantic relationships and high cholestrol??
No benefit yaar...
:(
#70 Posted by rsaxena on October 25, 2002 8:33:32 am
...what is mullah urstruly talking about?...
{People feel ashamed and disgusted that you have to import things like soaps, detergents, airconditioners, motorcycles, and vehicles from other countries in this day and age. }
Last I checked, India wasn`t importing any of this out of need..some psycho desis will always be convinced that bathing with phoren soaps will make them more like goras, but other than that ain`t no one buying that stuff...
Soaps - Lifeboy...lifeboy hai jahaan, tandrusti hai wahaan...
Detergents - Nirma washing powder
Airconditioners - Videocon
Motorcycles - Hero Honda is made in India, even if Honda name is Jap
Vehicles - Maruti, TATA jeeps
{People feel ashamed and disgusted that you have to import things like soaps, detergents, airconditioners, motorcycles, and vehicles from other countries in this day and age. }
Last I checked, India wasn`t importing any of this out of need..some psycho desis will always be convinced that bathing with phoren soaps will make them more like goras, but other than that ain`t no one buying that stuff...
Soaps - Lifeboy...lifeboy hai jahaan, tandrusti hai wahaan...
Detergents - Nirma washing powder
Airconditioners - Videocon
Motorcycles - Hero Honda is made in India, even if Honda name is Jap
Vehicles - Maruti, TATA jeeps
#69 Posted by harimau on October 25, 2002 6:43:36 am
Ref ZafarA #64
[Look, they just took this decision on aesthetic grounds after hearing the attempts that Northies were making with Oodhakamandalam, Sravanabelegola, Balasubramaniam and, of course, Dravidamunnetrakazhagam. So sue us.]
At least, we are safe from an invasion by the Chinese! Let them try saying Sravanabelagola.
I think the Golden Quadrilateral is a tremendous defensive asset in case of an invasion by the Chinese. All those l`s right next to the r`s. I think the Chinese Army would then be forced to take the country roads choked with bullock carts since they wouldn`t be able to communicate where they are on the Quadrilateral.
[Look, they just took this decision on aesthetic grounds after hearing the attempts that Northies were making with Oodhakamandalam, Sravanabelegola, Balasubramaniam and, of course, Dravidamunnetrakazhagam. So sue us.]
At least, we are safe from an invasion by the Chinese! Let them try saying Sravanabelagola.
I think the Golden Quadrilateral is a tremendous defensive asset in case of an invasion by the Chinese. All those l`s right next to the r`s. I think the Chinese Army would then be forced to take the country roads choked with bullock carts since they wouldn`t be able to communicate where they are on the Quadrilateral.
#68 Posted by ZafarA on October 25, 2002 6:43:36 am
Reply ERaman #65
``Seems like Hari may be right. I might have just made up the name Diamond network because I forgot the Golgden quadilateral part, anyways take your pick which is easier?``
Well, they tell me that Gold is actually becoming less popular in India than it used to be, so I would say Diamond would be more in keeping with the new national mood. Vaisai Old is Gold, so if you want the system to hark back to our sanskriti, philosophical truths and hallowed traditions...actually, what am I saying? We should forget our tradition of roads as fast as possible. Diamond it is! (Harimau, what is diamond in Tamil, please? I KNOW the word is NOT Love Queen...)
``Seems like Hari may be right. I might have just made up the name Diamond network because I forgot the Golgden quadilateral part, anyways take your pick which is easier?``
Well, they tell me that Gold is actually becoming less popular in India than it used to be, so I would say Diamond would be more in keeping with the new national mood. Vaisai Old is Gold, so if you want the system to hark back to our sanskriti, philosophical truths and hallowed traditions...actually, what am I saying? We should forget our tradition of roads as fast as possible. Diamond it is! (Harimau, what is diamond in Tamil, please? I KNOW the word is NOT Love Queen...)
#67 Posted by ZafarA on October 25, 2002 6:43:36 am
Reply Jay #66
``Today pakistanis are left with out any role models, the ones in the neighbourhoods, who have come up due to simple hard work and focus on education. All that the young of today in pakistan can see is corruption, jihad and killings. In addition it is this generation that undermined the school system to create the true children of TNT, filled with hatred for the kafirs.``
Yaar, chowk pe aane se pahle ithne peene ki KYA ZAROORAT?????
``Today pakistanis are left with out any role models, the ones in the neighbourhoods, who have come up due to simple hard work and focus on education. All that the young of today in pakistan can see is corruption, jihad and killings. In addition it is this generation that undermined the school system to create the true children of TNT, filled with hatred for the kafirs.``
Yaar, chowk pe aane se pahle ithne peene ki KYA ZAROORAT?????
#66 Posted by jay on October 25, 2002 6:08:54 am
DELUSION OF NUMBERS,
None of the numbers quoted by various people to compare india and pakistan cannot portray the essential difference. Pakistanis have lost their dreams, they have no hope and they are rudderless. A generation of pakistanis , the equivalent of mine in india have betrayed the country.
Today pakistanis are left with out any role models, the ones in the neighbourhoods, who have come up due to simple hard work and focus on education. All that the young of today in pakistan can see is corruption, jihad and killings. In addition it is this generation that undermined the school system to create the true children of TNT, filled with hatred for the kafirs.
Even today, the educated of pakistan, the likes of romair, tahmed etc are not willing to reevaluate their views on the conditions in pakistan. A good example is an article on chowk about the virtues of feudels. The poster says that the fueldals are able to dish out instant justice and it is a good for the society. The person does not care about the legal aspects, the procedures to be followed, even the idea of law and order. This is the type pak education that see virtue in actions that tries to undermine the very foundation of civil society that forecloses any future for pakistan.
Another very good example is the acceptance by all pakistanis of the uncountables. These are the jihadic fodders that finds no mention by the amnesty member romair, or the great humanist tahmed. They all accept these young pakistanis as jihadic fodder, no one mentions the numbers, let alone the names. These are the ones who have gone to heaven, with a few kafirs killed on earth.
Onec again what the statistics cannot portray is these chasm of values between the two countries. Optimism and despair, life and death, no one will ever be able to constrain them in numbers.
None of the numbers quoted by various people to compare india and pakistan cannot portray the essential difference. Pakistanis have lost their dreams, they have no hope and they are rudderless. A generation of pakistanis , the equivalent of mine in india have betrayed the country.
Today pakistanis are left with out any role models, the ones in the neighbourhoods, who have come up due to simple hard work and focus on education. All that the young of today in pakistan can see is corruption, jihad and killings. In addition it is this generation that undermined the school system to create the true children of TNT, filled with hatred for the kafirs.
Even today, the educated of pakistan, the likes of romair, tahmed etc are not willing to reevaluate their views on the conditions in pakistan. A good example is an article on chowk about the virtues of feudels. The poster says that the fueldals are able to dish out instant justice and it is a good for the society. The person does not care about the legal aspects, the procedures to be followed, even the idea of law and order. This is the type pak education that see virtue in actions that tries to undermine the very foundation of civil society that forecloses any future for pakistan.
Another very good example is the acceptance by all pakistanis of the uncountables. These are the jihadic fodders that finds no mention by the amnesty member romair, or the great humanist tahmed. They all accept these young pakistanis as jihadic fodder, no one mentions the numbers, let alone the names. These are the ones who have gone to heaven, with a few kafirs killed on earth.
Onec again what the statistics cannot portray is these chasm of values between the two countries. Optimism and despair, life and death, no one will ever be able to constrain them in numbers.
#65 Posted by ERaman on October 24, 2002 6:51:30 pm
Harimau and Zafar
Seems like Hari may be right. I might have just made up the name Diamond network because I forgot the Golgden quadilateral part, anyways take your pick which is easier?
Seems like Hari may be right. I might have just made up the name Diamond network because I forgot the Golgden quadilateral part, anyways take your pick which is easier?
#64 Posted by ZafarA on October 24, 2002 5:47:48 pm
Reply Stuka #50
“So basically if we interact, we will be criticized as dominating coz we are big, and if we don`t we will be target of their internal agendas. Screwed if we do and screwed if we don`t. What a position to be in.”
To be honest, yaar, being popular in the neighbourhood has never really been an item on our agenda.
The fact is, politiicans in all our neighbours derive some cheap domestic political benefit from paper conflicts with India. (Just like we do from paper conflicts with Pakistan, to be fair.) That is just FINE so long as we can keep doing business with each other, resolving conflicts without war (as we largely have done with Bangladesh) and growing our economies (as we definitely have done with Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka).
The benefit of India being engaged with her neighbours is that this keeps the advantages of the relationship in sight where it matters (even if behind closed doors), and ensures that the real benefits don’t get dominated by the paper conflicts. Easier for us to do than for them because there is not much political mileage to be had in India from shaking our fist at Nepal, or even (despite what happened to our jawans) at Bangladesh or Sri Lanka – or even if there is, it is usually very localised, and its intensity and impact somewhat attenuated by India’s size (and the relative indifference of most of the country to whatever issue happens to be in the news).
For eg, TN would have reacted very favourably to India engaging in populist rhetoric with Sri Lanka re: treatment of Tamils in the 1980s, and that would have very easily led to a tense relationship between the countries – a relationship which could have gone from bad to worse (as it is it went pretty bad what with the Indian Army going into Jaffna etc.) But because that didn’t dominate our interaction with them (ie Tamil politics didn’t dominate India’s attitude to Sri Lanka) we now have an FTA with Sri Lanka, which advances both their interest AND ours.
Just IMO.
“I wonder sometimes if there is any advantage to being Indian.”
Brought up on Raj Kapoor movies and butter chicken. What more could you ask for?
“So basically if we interact, we will be criticized as dominating coz we are big, and if we don`t we will be target of their internal agendas. Screwed if we do and screwed if we don`t. What a position to be in.”
To be honest, yaar, being popular in the neighbourhood has never really been an item on our agenda.
The fact is, politiicans in all our neighbours derive some cheap domestic political benefit from paper conflicts with India. (Just like we do from paper conflicts with Pakistan, to be fair.) That is just FINE so long as we can keep doing business with each other, resolving conflicts without war (as we largely have done with Bangladesh) and growing our economies (as we definitely have done with Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka).
The benefit of India being engaged with her neighbours is that this keeps the advantages of the relationship in sight where it matters (even if behind closed doors), and ensures that the real benefits don’t get dominated by the paper conflicts. Easier for us to do than for them because there is not much political mileage to be had in India from shaking our fist at Nepal, or even (despite what happened to our jawans) at Bangladesh or Sri Lanka – or even if there is, it is usually very localised, and its intensity and impact somewhat attenuated by India’s size (and the relative indifference of most of the country to whatever issue happens to be in the news).
For eg, TN would have reacted very favourably to India engaging in populist rhetoric with Sri Lanka re: treatment of Tamils in the 1980s, and that would have very easily led to a tense relationship between the countries – a relationship which could have gone from bad to worse (as it is it went pretty bad what with the Indian Army going into Jaffna etc.) But because that didn’t dominate our interaction with them (ie Tamil politics didn’t dominate India’s attitude to Sri Lanka) we now have an FTA with Sri Lanka, which advances both their interest AND ours.
Just IMO.
“I wonder sometimes if there is any advantage to being Indian.”
Brought up on Raj Kapoor movies and butter chicken. What more could you ask for?
#63 Posted by ZafarA on October 24, 2002 5:47:48 pm
Reply Urstruly #56
“People feel ashamed and disgusted that you have to import things like soaps, detergents, airconditioners, motorcycles, and vehicles from other countries in this day and age.”
Vaisai, iss paar se tho we export these things as well as import them, like most industrialising countries. (Just couldn’t resist. Smiiiiiiiirk.)
Apart from that I enjoyed your post, but was disappointed to see no mention of Kashmir. Thabiyath tho theek hai?
Best wishes,
“People feel ashamed and disgusted that you have to import things like soaps, detergents, airconditioners, motorcycles, and vehicles from other countries in this day and age.”
Vaisai, iss paar se tho we export these things as well as import them, like most industrialising countries. (Just couldn’t resist. Smiiiiiiiirk.)
Apart from that I enjoyed your post, but was disappointed to see no mention of Kashmir. Thabiyath tho theek hai?
Best wishes,
#62 Posted by ZafarA on October 24, 2002 5:47:48 pm
Reply Harimau #59
“Jeez.... I thought only Americans couldn`t handle polysyllabic names and dropped the ``Circumferential`` in favor of the ``Beltway``. “
Look, they just took this decision on aesthetic grounds after hearing the attempts that Northies were making with Oodhakamandalam, Sravanabelegola, Balasubramaniam and, of course, Dravidamunnetrakazhagam. So sue us. (OK, the James Bond movie also came into it.)
ERaman – thank you for the info.
“Jeez.... I thought only Americans couldn`t handle polysyllabic names and dropped the ``Circumferential`` in favor of the ``Beltway``. “
Look, they just took this decision on aesthetic grounds after hearing the attempts that Northies were making with Oodhakamandalam, Sravanabelegola, Balasubramaniam and, of course, Dravidamunnetrakazhagam. So sue us. (OK, the James Bond movie also came into it.)
ERaman – thank you for the info.
#60 Posted by harimau on October 24, 2002 2:03:36 pm
Ref Urstruly #56
[For a common person whether he lives in India or Paksitan the true indicators of economic strength are:
4. Infant mortality rate
6. New mothers mortality rate.
7. No of doctors serving how many.
12. No. of phones per people
19. Number of TVs, radios avaible to people
Is there someone who can provide this information from reliable sources.]
Asiaweek (sadly, now defunct) used to carry these statistics for most countries (including India and Pakistan) of the world. Their archives might still be active and if you flip through that, you will be able to get this info, along with imports, exports, current account deficit, forex reserves, population, literacy rate, life expectancy, etc.
Try www.asiaweek.com and you used to get redirected to whoever owned them.
[For a common person whether he lives in India or Paksitan the true indicators of economic strength are:
4. Infant mortality rate
6. New mothers mortality rate.
7. No of doctors serving how many.
12. No. of phones per people
19. Number of TVs, radios avaible to people
Is there someone who can provide this information from reliable sources.]
Asiaweek (sadly, now defunct) used to carry these statistics for most countries (including India and Pakistan) of the world. Their archives might still be active and if you flip through that, you will be able to get this info, along with imports, exports, current account deficit, forex reserves, population, literacy rate, life expectancy, etc.
Try www.asiaweek.com and you used to get redirected to whoever owned them.
#59 Posted by Urstruly on October 24, 2002 1:24:56 pm
Stuka
We have also experienced what you refer to in your post as a period of 60s and 70s, in early 70s to early 80s. As a matter of fact the state ownership of private enterprise started in Ayub era in 60s. So I think we have common experience, but as compared to India the rules were much relaxed......(it is my personal opinion, can`t substantiate it)
We have also experienced what you refer to in your post as a period of 60s and 70s, in early 70s to early 80s. As a matter of fact the state ownership of private enterprise started in Ayub era in 60s. So I think we have common experience, but as compared to India the rules were much relaxed......(it is my personal opinion, can`t substantiate it)
#58 Posted by harimau on October 24, 2002 1:24:56 pm
Ref ERaman #54
[The diamond network is the name given to the ambitious plan to connect the four corners of India by 4-6 lane world-class highways by the year 2007. ]
You mean they changed the name from ``The Golden Quadrilateral`` to ``The Diamond Network``?
Jeez.... I thought only Americans couldn`t handle polysyllabic names and dropped the ``Circumferential`` in favor of the ``Beltway``.
[The diamond network is the name given to the ambitious plan to connect the four corners of India by 4-6 lane world-class highways by the year 2007. ]
You mean they changed the name from ``The Golden Quadrilateral`` to ``The Diamond Network``?
Jeez.... I thought only Americans couldn`t handle polysyllabic names and dropped the ``Circumferential`` in favor of the ``Beltway``.
#57 Posted by stuka on October 24, 2002 10:47:02 am
Urstruly:
Post 56 and other posts. In a sense you are right. There is no advantage to being a consumer, if that is all you are. Indians are seeing the benefits of globalization ie brand names etc, that Pakistanis have been seeing for 4 generations.
However, globalization is also a reality. We tried socialism for 40 years, it ended in a morass of License Raj, bureaucracy etc. It Killed individual initiative. The only ones who benefited were Indians who beat the system. The pain was borne by the salaried class, and the poor. If the gora wants to build factories, at least my people will get jobs.
When you list the parameters of economic strength, you fail to mention the source of money needed to spend and mantain all these things? The number one thing people need is jobs. If people have the means to earn a livlihood, all else follows. If you are not part of globalization, who is going to invest wealth, and how will jobs be created?
You are not Indian, therefore you are not familiar with the situation in the 1960s and 1970S. The employment exchange was the place where you would get your name registered and wait endlessly...
If you take the time, you will see the wide disparity that exists in states within India. Investment makes the difference, In Maharashtra, illiteracy is low, infant mortality is low, and socio-economic indicators are positive compared to Bihar, Orrissa, parts of Eastern UP etc. These are states where standards of living are lower than Sub Saharan Africa in some parts. These also happen to be states which have the most parochial and feudal, caste ridden cultures.
What inference do we draw?
Post 56 and other posts. In a sense you are right. There is no advantage to being a consumer, if that is all you are. Indians are seeing the benefits of globalization ie brand names etc, that Pakistanis have been seeing for 4 generations.
However, globalization is also a reality. We tried socialism for 40 years, it ended in a morass of License Raj, bureaucracy etc. It Killed individual initiative. The only ones who benefited were Indians who beat the system. The pain was borne by the salaried class, and the poor. If the gora wants to build factories, at least my people will get jobs.
When you list the parameters of economic strength, you fail to mention the source of money needed to spend and mantain all these things? The number one thing people need is jobs. If people have the means to earn a livlihood, all else follows. If you are not part of globalization, who is going to invest wealth, and how will jobs be created?
You are not Indian, therefore you are not familiar with the situation in the 1960s and 1970S. The employment exchange was the place where you would get your name registered and wait endlessly...
If you take the time, you will see the wide disparity that exists in states within India. Investment makes the difference, In Maharashtra, illiteracy is low, infant mortality is low, and socio-economic indicators are positive compared to Bihar, Orrissa, parts of Eastern UP etc. These are states where standards of living are lower than Sub Saharan Africa in some parts. These also happen to be states which have the most parochial and feudal, caste ridden cultures.
What inference do we draw?
#56 Posted by stuka on October 24, 2002 9:13:09 am
Sri
Thank you for your contribution to Chowk. Really, the originality of your intellect leaves me breathless with anticipation for the pearls of wisdom that you may decide to bring forth.
In the meanwhile, please go back to hammering code in Javascript, or whatever you use.
Thank you for your contribution to Chowk. Really, the originality of your intellect leaves me breathless with anticipation for the pearls of wisdom that you may decide to bring forth.
In the meanwhile, please go back to hammering code in Javascript, or whatever you use.
#55 Posted by Urstruly on October 24, 2002 9:13:09 am
Just as I thought, it is easier to perpetuate propaganda than to realize and accept the truth. People! why dont you understand that the views presented in this article project a perspective how you want others to see you. It does not reflect how others in actuality see you. The economic indicators presented in the article are meaningless for a common person. Remember, economies are for the people and not for the foreign businesses. For a common person whether he lives in India or Paksitan the true indicators of economic strength are:
1. Per Capita GDP that is spent on him.
2. Per Capita $ amount spent on education
3. How many people drink from tap water
4. Infant mortality rate
6. New mothers mortality rate.
7. No of doctors serving how many.
8. No of Nurses serving how many
9. No of hospital beds availabale
10. No of school going children
11. No of shools, colleges, and universities available as compared to people.
12. No. of phones per people
13. Public transport per capita
14. Logistics available to transport agri and industrial production to markets.
15. Annual revenue, and how much of it is returned to people.
16. No of industrial units per capita
17. Revenue generated by service industry
18. Revenue generated by industry and trade
19. Number of TVs, radios avaible to people
20. Number of judges as compared to cases filed.
21. Average processing time of transaction in a government agency.
22. A clearly defined ``jobless`` criteria and number of jobless in the country.
Is there someone who can provide this information from reliable sources.
I would appeal to the good conscience of the people at this board to stop thinking from the perspective of MNCs and other countries.....stop thinking that how many cars, toothpastes, and shampoos can be marketed in your own country. People feel ashamed and disgusted that you have to import things like soaps, detergents, airconditioners, motorcycles, and vehicles from other countries in this day and age. It is not that our manufacturer cannot produce quality products; he can; but he needs your help. He cannot build his nest while your own government is busy cutting the tree. He needs support. Dont turn him into sales agent. Help him become the artist from the artisan.
#54 Posted by ERaman on October 24, 2002 8:04:59 am
Zafar
The diamond network is the name given to the ambitious plan to connect the four corners of India by 4-6 lane world-class highways by the year 2007.
The diamond network is the name given to the ambitious plan to connect the four corners of India by 4-6 lane world-class highways by the year 2007.
#53 Posted by AllahDitta on October 24, 2002 7:58:08 am
Very heppy to note that Pakitanis are not behend the sniper attacks in DC area. Last few days wes become difficult to get business in DC area. There were rumors that such wee pleened attacks might only be by Pakistanis or Afghans .
Atleast not directly related to them.
Rab Rakha and Khuda Hafiz
Atleast not directly related to them.
Rab Rakha and Khuda Hafiz
#52 Posted by sri on October 24, 2002 6:52:24 am
Dear pakis, Is it true that your great ally in the war against terror is rejecting most of the paki visa applications ? students, visitors, whatever...
You might ask what`s my cynical happiness in all this. Well, that`s a really valid question. I am happy because this is a win win arrangement for both pakis and Americans. I am happy for pakis because americans are saving you pakis from getting in to a land that is occupied/controlled by international jew ( or is it ZOG according to your Nazi friends ). You guys really hate international jew - don`t you ?
I am happy for Americans because they are saving themselves from a bunch of America hating rags. I am also happy because I have few less rags to worry about who might fly planes in to my workplace. I hope you guys see the wisdom in all this happiness.
I really suggest you pakis to save yourself all that hard work for US visa applications. There ain`t any kind of benefit standing in long lines outside US consulates in Islamabad and Karachi ( or whereever the hell they may be in Pakiland ). You all could stay back in pakiland and continue to enjoy your theories on how jews control America and how all hindus are evil baniyas. Avoid yourself the confusion of whether to hate America or beg for American visas like true beggars.
#51 Posted by sadna on October 24, 2002 6:52:24 am
Even if India was the poorest country in the world on per-capita income basis, by sheer population size it would still rank as one of the larger economies in the world. And certain idiot Pakistanis insisting on taking leave of their wits would still be calling this fact `propaganda`.
An average Pakistani has to be approx 7? times richer(or less poor alas) than an average Indian for the economies to be of comparable size, ( assuming a number of things being equal).
I don`t see any reason why Pakistanis cannot achieve this, given India`s slow decisionmaking, Arun Shourie and his predicaments, uncertain political and socioeconomic climate taking up airtime, poor infrastructure development, heavy rural dependence on agriculture, no significant oil or gas reserves etc.
But those Pakistanis who insist on taking leave of their wits as above have hope too. Pakistan has a fine spanking birth rate unmatched by any in the region. Those who donot want to use their brains can use other organs and become same-same with India. Happy now?
#50 Posted by stuka on October 24, 2002 6:52:23 am
Zafar:
``Don’t you think that such a club has great potential to become a nexus for all the negative interactions each of these countries has with India, as opposed to being one which is balanced out by some constructive agendas``
So basically if we interact, we will be criticized as dominating coz we are big, and if we don`t we will be target of their internal agendas. Screwed if we do and screwed if we don`t. What a position to be in.
I wonder sometimes if there is any advantage to being Indian. Be it getting grren card, where we are always last in line along with the Phillipinos, or dating, where the gender ratio is heavily favorable to women, anything at all...
``Don’t you think that such a club has great potential to become a nexus for all the negative interactions each of these countries has with India, as opposed to being one which is balanced out by some constructive agendas``
So basically if we interact, we will be criticized as dominating coz we are big, and if we don`t we will be target of their internal agendas. Screwed if we do and screwed if we don`t. What a position to be in.
I wonder sometimes if there is any advantage to being Indian. Be it getting grren card, where we are always last in line along with the Phillipinos, or dating, where the gender ratio is heavily favorable to women, anything at all...
#49 Posted by IAS on October 24, 2002 12:36:58 am
Everybody is taking the world bank numbers as gospel truth. Is the glass half empty or half full for India ?? Poverty in India might be as low as 26% and NOT 44% if the following report is to be believed :
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2002/06/deaton.htm
Also, for people interested in state wise differences in poverty in India as well as the poverty decline from 1987-2002 to assess impact of reforms, there is an excellent study at :
http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/sar/sa.nsf/Attachments/adp/$File/prices+poverty+55thRound+all.pdf
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2002/06/deaton.htm
Also, for people interested in state wise differences in poverty in India as well as the poverty decline from 1987-2002 to assess impact of reforms, there is an excellent study at :
http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/sar/sa.nsf/Attachments/adp/$File/prices+poverty+55thRound+all.pdf
#48 Posted by bbabu on October 24, 2002 12:15:06 am
Usruly 32:
You are right that MNCs cannot raise per capita income. People who work for MNCs do raise your income.
Name one Chinese company that makes a product we have heard about. Other than M-11 missiles and nukes Pakistan has.
Most of the ``made in China`` stuff is made by foreign companies.
#47 Posted by Ashok on October 23, 2002 11:22:28 pm
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#46 Posted by Prem on October 23, 2002 9:59:51 pm
India and Pakistan: Ignoring each other.
A dead white man wrote that a relationship is most antagonistic when its protagonists completely ignore each other.
Conversely, deep conflict always springs from the womb of a deep relationship. None hate each other more than two brothers who have decided to fight.
We forgive the transgressions of strangers. Of our brothers, we remember, we resent, and we are ready to kill for.
The deeper the affection, the greater the rage.
Take it from someone who knows both what affection is, and what rage is.
A dead white man wrote that a relationship is most antagonistic when its protagonists completely ignore each other.
Conversely, deep conflict always springs from the womb of a deep relationship. None hate each other more than two brothers who have decided to fight.
We forgive the transgressions of strangers. Of our brothers, we remember, we resent, and we are ready to kill for.
The deeper the affection, the greater the rage.
Take it from someone who knows both what affection is, and what rage is.
#45 Posted by ZafarA on October 23, 2002 9:05:01 pm
Reply Rsax #20
“...but we are going to two separate and very distinct destinations, even if we started in the same place... “
Yaar, even if we are determinedly looking in opposite directions we remain geographically (and perhaps culturally and emotionally) joined at the hip. One of us cannot go down without profoundly impacting the other, and one of us cannot rise without some sort of benefit flowing on to our neighbours. The Black Market knows this, it’s only our Govts which live in imaginary splendid isolation. (For example: the bright idea of dropping a nuclear bomb on a place whose breezes can reach us in less than an hour….)
“...but we are going to two separate and very distinct destinations, even if we started in the same place... “
Yaar, even if we are determinedly looking in opposite directions we remain geographically (and perhaps culturally and emotionally) joined at the hip. One of us cannot go down without profoundly impacting the other, and one of us cannot rise without some sort of benefit flowing on to our neighbours. The Black Market knows this, it’s only our Govts which live in imaginary splendid isolation. (For example: the bright idea of dropping a nuclear bomb on a place whose breezes can reach us in less than an hour….)
#44 Posted by ZafarA on October 23, 2002 9:05:01 pm
Reply ERaman #21
“Efforts or the lack of them to bring the Bharat part of the country on par with the Indian part of the country.”
Agree, but Bharat is never too far away in India – every dhaba next to a polytechnic is Bharat benefitting from India, right? (And every student buying cheap chai and vada paon is India benefitting from Bharat.)
“Lopsided development in some respects - metros Vs. smaller centres-> The Govt needs to open the way for development in smaller centres condiering the fact that we are still not an open economy.”
This is urgent, IMO.
“Change cultural bias to wards professional education such as Engg. and Medicine , we need qualified people in just about every profession , not widgets produced by assembly line engg colleges.”
Yeah, but HOW to make this change? The economics of it was affecting social status attached to different jobs (tractor mechanics make more than school teachers in a village, for eg), but very very slowly. IT, of course, reinforces the older paradigm.
“And from the chaos emerges the news about the ``Diamond network`` that should connect the four corners of the country by the year 2007. Positive indeed.”
Tell me more, I’m sadly out of touch.
Regards
#43 Posted by ZafarA on October 23, 2002 9:05:01 pm
Reply Dost-mittar #28
“No Pakistani seems to be prepared to accept his/her country to be a Canada to India`s America.”
But WHYYYYYYYYYYYY? I have no desire to live in the US again, but I sometimes think that living in (French) Canada would be kind of fun. And India/Pakistan don’t have that weather ka lafda either, Pakistan would be definitely ahead.
“No Pakistani seems to be prepared to accept his/her country to be a Canada to India`s America.”
But WHYYYYYYYYYYYY? I have no desire to live in the US again, but I sometimes think that living in (French) Canada would be kind of fun. And India/Pakistan don’t have that weather ka lafda either, Pakistan would be definitely ahead.
#42 Posted by ZafarA on October 23, 2002 9:05:01 pm
Reply Shankar #24
“What I got out of this article is that both countries have failed to live up to their potential...& the biggest problem is that our mutual antagonism has hampered our potential & dragged us down...”
Shankar, our mutual antagonism has been a godsend to our politicians. The patriotism of the people has been (is being) manipulated to keep them from asking some difficult questions about management. (Just IMO.)
“But; hey, thats PRIMARILY Pakistan`s fault...I mean,.. that goes without saying....:)) “
Mashallah. I knew your heart was in the right place.
(Hey, I just thought of the Kanchi Shankaracharya’s comment on Hindus and Muslims in India….what about if we apply it to India and Pakistan…it works out to “India and Pakistan are like Ram and Lakshman”…wait for the screams….also begs the question, who plays Sita, Bharat, Dhritarashtra and, of course, Keikei…and what about the maid servant? No prizes for guessing who Ravana is…)
Regards
“What I got out of this article is that both countries have failed to live up to their potential...& the biggest problem is that our mutual antagonism has hampered our potential & dragged us down...”
Shankar, our mutual antagonism has been a godsend to our politicians. The patriotism of the people has been (is being) manipulated to keep them from asking some difficult questions about management. (Just IMO.)
“But; hey, thats PRIMARILY Pakistan`s fault...I mean,.. that goes without saying....:)) “
Mashallah. I knew your heart was in the right place.
(Hey, I just thought of the Kanchi Shankaracharya’s comment on Hindus and Muslims in India….what about if we apply it to India and Pakistan…it works out to “India and Pakistan are like Ram and Lakshman”…wait for the screams….also begs the question, who plays Sita, Bharat, Dhritarashtra and, of course, Keikei…and what about the maid servant? No prizes for guessing who Ravana is…)
Regards
#41 Posted by ZafarA on October 23, 2002 9:05:01 pm
Reply Stuka #22
“I`m assuming you`re Zafar from down under.”
The same!
“On a serious note, you say that India and Pakistan have to travel together. Why? It would either be all of South Asia, the entire region, or it would be each country on it`s own.”
Pakistan and Nepal, or Pakistan and Bangladesh, can decide to ignore each other and carry on with life regardless. That is not an option for India – what happens with us affects our neighbours, what happens with them affects us. This is particularly true of Nepal and Bangladesh, given the very porous borders we have with them, but I think it’s also true of Sri Lanka and (DESPITE both our Govts’ best efforts) of Pakistan.
“I think India should at least in the short to medium term future, adopt an isolationist posture with regards to it`s immediate neighborhood, including withdrawal from SAARC. The lack of Indian interaction will give less ammo to play India as the bogey man.”
True. But without India there, what is the point of SAARC except as a club of countries which have to deal with India as a much larger neighbour? What else do they have in common? Don’t you think that such a club has great potential to become a nexus for all the negative interactions each of these countries has with India, as opposed to being one which is balanced out by some constructive agendas – agendas which, largely, are only implementable with India’s active participation.
Aho! jee, etc.
“I`m assuming you`re Zafar from down under.”
The same!
“On a serious note, you say that India and Pakistan have to travel together. Why? It would either be all of South Asia, the entire region, or it would be each country on it`s own.”
Pakistan and Nepal, or Pakistan and Bangladesh, can decide to ignore each other and carry on with life regardless. That is not an option for India – what happens with us affects our neighbours, what happens with them affects us. This is particularly true of Nepal and Bangladesh, given the very porous borders we have with them, but I think it’s also true of Sri Lanka and (DESPITE both our Govts’ best efforts) of Pakistan.
“I think India should at least in the short to medium term future, adopt an isolationist posture with regards to it`s immediate neighborhood, including withdrawal from SAARC. The lack of Indian interaction will give less ammo to play India as the bogey man.”
True. But without India there, what is the point of SAARC except as a club of countries which have to deal with India as a much larger neighbour? What else do they have in common? Don’t you think that such a club has great potential to become a nexus for all the negative interactions each of these countries has with India, as opposed to being one which is balanced out by some constructive agendas – agendas which, largely, are only implementable with India’s active participation.
Aho! jee, etc.
#38 Posted by Urstruly on October 23, 2002 1:02:56 pm
Arjunm
I fail to see the connection between your last post and the topic under discussion. And also I am not interested in finding out the point of view of some Mr. Naveed Ahmad. I want to know what you know that makes you so mad.
I fail to see the connection between your last post and the topic under discussion. And also I am not interested in finding out the point of view of some Mr. Naveed Ahmad. I want to know what you know that makes you so mad.
#37 Posted by arjun_m on October 23, 2002 12:49:14 pm
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#35 Posted by Urstruly on October 23, 2002 11:26:22 am
arjunm
``I can understand your frustration at seeing the Indian economy doing great ...``
No you dont understand, because anti-Muslim hate and prejudice has clouded your thinking. I say this because none of my post so far is ``India-bad-Pak-good``. The topic under discussion, as started by this article, and the article itself, is a technical subject. I have raised technical questions, based on subject of (Macro) economics. If you can refute them, I will thank you for increasing my knowledge base, but I see that you can`t. So either you don`t know the subject or as I said, are too preoccupied in your prejudices, so you make noise. Probably, you think that by doing that you are serving your country or parivar or something.
``I can understand your frustration at seeing the Indian economy doing great ...``
No you dont understand, because anti-Muslim hate and prejudice has clouded your thinking. I say this because none of my post so far is ``India-bad-Pak-good``. The topic under discussion, as started by this article, and the article itself, is a technical subject. I have raised technical questions, based on subject of (Macro) economics. If you can refute them, I will thank you for increasing my knowledge base, but I see that you can`t. So either you don`t know the subject or as I said, are too preoccupied in your prejudices, so you make noise. Probably, you think that by doing that you are serving your country or parivar or something.
#34 Posted by rsaxena on October 23, 2002 11:16:59 am
re: bharaatvasi #34
...ouch, careful with urstruly...he`ll go jump into lake michigan if you keep that up... :))
...ouch, careful with urstruly...he`ll go jump into lake michigan if you keep that up... :))
#33 Posted by arjun_m on October 23, 2002 11:10:43 am
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#32 Posted by Urstruly on October 23, 2002 10:22:01 am
Arjunm
It`s ok, relax. What Indian populace is experiencing now in the form of fragrent soaps with lanolin in them and cars etc., we have had since the beginning. MNCs cannot raise per capita income - they actually reduce it. But you will understand it later, for now just smell the new soap.
I think in this regard, Chinese are the smartest people on this planet - raising the standard of living of one billion people consistently, without Capitalsim, is nothing short of a miracle. They rely on their own manufacturing base; they didnt act dumb as Russians for democarcy and other non-sense, and they beat capitalists in their own game. What a nation.
It`s ok, relax. What Indian populace is experiencing now in the form of fragrent soaps with lanolin in them and cars etc., we have had since the beginning. MNCs cannot raise per capita income - they actually reduce it. But you will understand it later, for now just smell the new soap.
I think in this regard, Chinese are the smartest people on this planet - raising the standard of living of one billion people consistently, without Capitalsim, is nothing short of a miracle. They rely on their own manufacturing base; they didnt act dumb as Russians for democarcy and other non-sense, and they beat capitalists in their own game. What a nation.
#30 Posted by bharatvaasi on October 23, 2002 10:22:00 am
Urstruly message 24.
Man now you have gone and put your foot in the *hit. PPP is based on the power that $1 can buy in various countries. Ths a $1 goes a damn sight long way in pakistan than in the US.
You need to get that head from where ever it is stuck and read your economics again.
Man now you have gone and put your foot in the *hit. PPP is based on the power that $1 can buy in various countries. Ths a $1 goes a damn sight long way in pakistan than in the US.
You need to get that head from where ever it is stuck and read your economics again.
#29 Posted by RLeonard on October 23, 2002 10:22:00 am
Dost-Mittar jee ,
Begging seems to have more to do with religio-cultural values more than just poverty. Traditionally begging is most prevalent in states that have a strong presence of feudal values , part of the problem lies in the fatalism of the masses and their belief in exploiting the guilty conscience of the better -off middle classes. Look not furher than the vicinity of temples to see beggars in the hope of inveigling some money out of the faithful middles classes. In this regard I can point out the differences across the Western Ghats that I have noticed, in Kerala the beggars are itinerants from Tamil Nadu and other states and they generally try to walk house-to-house , I have no reason to suspect that percaipta incomes in Kerala are the reason, the percapita for TN is probably marginally higher than for Kerala .
It is my hypothesis that by doing away with the fatalism of the people especially the rural masses tha are forced into cities the disgraceful effects of begging can be minimised.
Begging seems to have more to do with religio-cultural values more than just poverty. Traditionally begging is most prevalent in states that have a strong presence of feudal values , part of the problem lies in the fatalism of the masses and their belief in exploiting the guilty conscience of the better -off middle classes. Look not furher than the vicinity of temples to see beggars in the hope of inveigling some money out of the faithful middles classes. In this regard I can point out the differences across the Western Ghats that I have noticed, in Kerala the beggars are itinerants from Tamil Nadu and other states and they generally try to walk house-to-house , I have no reason to suspect that percaipta incomes in Kerala are the reason, the percapita for TN is probably marginally higher than for Kerala .
It is my hypothesis that by doing away with the fatalism of the people especially the rural masses tha are forced into cities the disgraceful effects of begging can be minimised.
#26 Posted by arjun_m on October 23, 2002 8:51:56 am
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#25 Posted by shankar on October 23, 2002 7:53:09 am
ZafarA,
Very good insight. My 2 cents. Its one thing to throw crap at the other side during a mudsling fest:) However, when both sides come together at a Chowk, once in a while, we ought to pay attention to the crap on our side; rather than ``gloat`` about the problems of the other side.
Lets face it, if a Chinese guy came to Chowk today; he could ``shame`` us Indians with his ``gloating`` about China`s economic performance, compared to India`s...which, btw is a ``fairer`` comparison than India vs Pakistan.
The problem with the dominant mentalities of people in both countries is that we are both trying to ``prove`` to ourselves & the other guy, that Partition was ``wrong`` or ``right``--depending on which side we were born! And that shows up in every Indo-Pak debate--whether it is about economy, politics, social problems etc etc...
What I got out of this article is that both countries have failed to live up to their potential...& the biggest problem is that our mutual antagonism has hampered our potential & dragged us down...
But; hey, thats PRIMARILY Pakistan`s fault...I mean,.. that goes without saying....:))
Very good insight. My 2 cents. Its one thing to throw crap at the other side during a mudsling fest:) However, when both sides come together at a Chowk, once in a while, we ought to pay attention to the crap on our side; rather than ``gloat`` about the problems of the other side.
Lets face it, if a Chinese guy came to Chowk today; he could ``shame`` us Indians with his ``gloating`` about China`s economic performance, compared to India`s...which, btw is a ``fairer`` comparison than India vs Pakistan.
The problem with the dominant mentalities of people in both countries is that we are both trying to ``prove`` to ourselves & the other guy, that Partition was ``wrong`` or ``right``--depending on which side we were born! And that shows up in every Indo-Pak debate--whether it is about economy, politics, social problems etc etc...
What I got out of this article is that both countries have failed to live up to their potential...& the biggest problem is that our mutual antagonism has hampered our potential & dragged us down...
But; hey, thats PRIMARILY Pakistan`s fault...I mean,.. that goes without saying....:))
#24 Posted by harimau on October 23, 2002 7:53:09 am
Ref 12-Head #14
[....Arundhati Roy comments about the Dichotomy of Indias propsperity on one hand confined to upper echeleon while 80% of rural population go without electricity water medicinee school ri=oads ...]
That is probably true in Bihar. On the other hand, Arundhati Roy`s native Kerala (or Bengal) has the problem with water of having too much of it. It rains hard for 6 months of the year and the rivers and ponds overflow. I haven`t seen a village without roads, electricity or an elementary school in Tamil Nadu. India is well-developed in certain states and not so in certain other states. And no, we don`t have any sympathy for the Biharis, whether stranded in Bangladesh or in Bihar itself. Time for them to get off their butts and do something, like electing somebody other than that clown Lalloo Prasad Yadav.
[``It`s the old Brahminical instinct. Colonise knowledge, build four walls around it, and use it to your advantage. The Manusmriti, the Vedic Hindu code of conduct, says that if a Dalit overhears a shloka or any part of a sacred text, he must have molten lead poured into his ear.]
You know, you guys are secretly wishing that molten lead was poured into the ears of folks listening to the mullah rant and rave about the Koran and the hadiths.
[It isn`t a coincidence that while India is poised to take her place at the forefront of the Information Revolution, millions of her citizens are illiterate. (It would be interesting, as an exercise, to find out how many `experts`?scholars, professionals, consultants?in India are actually Brahmins or from the upper castes.) ``sayz ARUNDHATI ROY]
Wel, SOMEBODY has to do an honest day`s work and it certainly ain`t going to be the OBCs. What does Arundhati Roy want: quotas for OBCs at Texas Instruments, Cisco, and Lucent in Bangalore? I know what YOU want: quotas for Muslims.
[....Arundhati Roy comments about the Dichotomy of Indias propsperity on one hand confined to upper echeleon while 80% of rural population go without electricity water medicinee school ri=oads ...]
That is probably true in Bihar. On the other hand, Arundhati Roy`s native Kerala (or Bengal) has the problem with water of having too much of it. It rains hard for 6 months of the year and the rivers and ponds overflow. I haven`t seen a village without roads, electricity or an elementary school in Tamil Nadu. India is well-developed in certain states and not so in certain other states. And no, we don`t have any sympathy for the Biharis, whether stranded in Bangladesh or in Bihar itself. Time for them to get off their butts and do something, like electing somebody other than that clown Lalloo Prasad Yadav.
[``It`s the old Brahminical instinct. Colonise knowledge, build four walls around it, and use it to your advantage. The Manusmriti, the Vedic Hindu code of conduct, says that if a Dalit overhears a shloka or any part of a sacred text, he must have molten lead poured into his ear.]
You know, you guys are secretly wishing that molten lead was poured into the ears of folks listening to the mullah rant and rave about the Koran and the hadiths.
[It isn`t a coincidence that while India is poised to take her place at the forefront of the Information Revolution, millions of her citizens are illiterate. (It would be interesting, as an exercise, to find out how many `experts`?scholars, professionals, consultants?in India are actually Brahmins or from the upper castes.) ``sayz ARUNDHATI ROY]
Wel, SOMEBODY has to do an honest day`s work and it certainly ain`t going to be the OBCs. What does Arundhati Roy want: quotas for OBCs at Texas Instruments, Cisco, and Lucent in Bangalore? I know what YOU want: quotas for Muslims.
#23 Posted by rsaxena on October 23, 2002 7:53:08 am
re: ZafarA
{People - the first thing that strikes me after reading the article is not India this Pakistan that blahblahblahb, but that we both have a long, long way to go - and that it would be a faster journey if we travelled together rather than so resolutely separately.}
...but we are going to two separate and very distinct destinations, even if we started in the same place...
{People - the first thing that strikes me after reading the article is not India this Pakistan that blahblahblahb, but that we both have a long, long way to go - and that it would be a faster journey if we travelled together rather than so resolutely separately.}
...but we are going to two separate and very distinct destinations, even if we started in the same place...
#22 Posted by ERaman on October 23, 2002 7:53:08 am
ZafarA
Any assessment of our economic situations also needs to consider the following.
1) The so-called black market economy which if accounted for would probably add to the per capita indicators as well as the standard of living incidcators.
2) The malignant influence of corruption . This extends from the polliticians to the lowly bureaucrat in the village parishad office.
3) Efforts or the lack of them to bring the Bharat part of the country on par with the Indian part of the country.
4) Lopsided development in some respects - metros Vs. smaller centres-> The Govt needs to open the way for development in smaller centres condiering the fact that we are still not an open economy.
5) Change cultural bias to wards professional education such as Engg. and Medicine , we need qualified people in just about every profession , not widgets produced by assembly line engg colleges.
And from the chaos emerges the news about the ``Diamond network`` that should connect the four corners of the country by the year 2007. Positive indeed.
Any assessment of our economic situations also needs to consider the following.
1) The so-called black market economy which if accounted for would probably add to the per capita indicators as well as the standard of living incidcators.
2) The malignant influence of corruption . This extends from the polliticians to the lowly bureaucrat in the village parishad office.
3) Efforts or the lack of them to bring the Bharat part of the country on par with the Indian part of the country.
4) Lopsided development in some respects - metros Vs. smaller centres-> The Govt needs to open the way for development in smaller centres condiering the fact that we are still not an open economy.
5) Change cultural bias to wards professional education such as Engg. and Medicine , we need qualified people in just about every profession , not widgets produced by assembly line engg colleges.
And from the chaos emerges the news about the ``Diamond network`` that should connect the four corners of the country by the year 2007. Positive indeed.
#21 Posted by stuka on October 23, 2002 7:53:08 am
ZafarA:
I`m assuming you`re Zafar from down under. Kee haal chaal hai?? No news...arrey you have a sarkari job so you should have plenty of free time :) Kidding!!!
``Oye, all my fellow Indians - so long as we still have STARVATION DEATHS in India,``
The irony is that starvation deaths occur not because of lack of food production but because of inefficient distribution. All countries subsidize agriculture, and India is no exception. But our subsidy is supply side only. The warehouses overflow, and tonnes of wheat is wasted. The government keeps getting pressure from the farmer`s lobby to raise procurement prices. Making the fat jatts of Punjab even fatter.
However, when NT Rama Rao came up with the idea of Rs 2 a kilo for rice, he was villified by the media for populism. No doubt the idea was populist, but it at least was directed to the poorest of the poor and was one of his enduring legacies.
``where do we get off taunting Pakistan for this that or the other? ``
arrey, gareebi key bhoj sey dabbey hindustaniyon ko yeh chottey chotey aur muft mazzey laney sey to na rokiyey... :) Kalko Government hamarey Pakistan pey mazzak utarney par bhi entertainment tax lagga dey gi.
On a serious note, you say that India and Pakistan have to travel together. Why? It would either be all of South Asia, the entire region, or it would be each country on it`s own. Having lived in Nepal, I can tell you first hand that any gesture India makes is more likely to be misconstrued rather than taken for what it;s worth. This has a lot to do with India`s sheer size and cultural pre-dominance rather than anything else. A similar situation exists with our wanting to buy natural gas from Bangladesh. A win win scenario, but painted as exploitation by Bangladeshi nationalists.
I think India should at least in the short to medium term future, adopt an isolationist posture with regards to it`s immediate neighborhood, including withdrawal from SAARC. The lack of Indian interaction will give less ammo to play India as the bogey man.
I`m assuming you`re Zafar from down under. Kee haal chaal hai?? No news...arrey you have a sarkari job so you should have plenty of free time :) Kidding!!!
``Oye, all my fellow Indians - so long as we still have STARVATION DEATHS in India,``
The irony is that starvation deaths occur not because of lack of food production but because of inefficient distribution. All countries subsidize agriculture, and India is no exception. But our subsidy is supply side only. The warehouses overflow, and tonnes of wheat is wasted. The government keeps getting pressure from the farmer`s lobby to raise procurement prices. Making the fat jatts of Punjab even fatter.
However, when NT Rama Rao came up with the idea of Rs 2 a kilo for rice, he was villified by the media for populism. No doubt the idea was populist, but it at least was directed to the poorest of the poor and was one of his enduring legacies.
``where do we get off taunting Pakistan for this that or the other? ``
arrey, gareebi key bhoj sey dabbey hindustaniyon ko yeh chottey chotey aur muft mazzey laney sey to na rokiyey... :) Kalko Government hamarey Pakistan pey mazzak utarney par bhi entertainment tax lagga dey gi.
On a serious note, you say that India and Pakistan have to travel together. Why? It would either be all of South Asia, the entire region, or it would be each country on it`s own. Having lived in Nepal, I can tell you first hand that any gesture India makes is more likely to be misconstrued rather than taken for what it;s worth. This has a lot to do with India`s sheer size and cultural pre-dominance rather than anything else. A similar situation exists with our wanting to buy natural gas from Bangladesh. A win win scenario, but painted as exploitation by Bangladeshi nationalists.
I think India should at least in the short to medium term future, adopt an isolationist posture with regards to it`s immediate neighborhood, including withdrawal from SAARC. The lack of Indian interaction will give less ammo to play India as the bogey man.
#20 Posted by Urstruly on October 23, 2002 7:53:08 am
This article lacks academic merit and contains some serious technical flaws. Godot has correctly pointed out that this article is just a compendium of the propaganda excerpts that the governments in our part of the world spew out. And no one not even propagandists believe in them – a common person will believe this non-sense when he will have food to feed his children.
I will address two points in this post:
1. Purchasing Power Parity basis to measure economy, and
2. the concept of third world economy.
1. PPP concept is simple to understand. For example, lets consider that the exchange rate between US and Pakistan is 1USD = Rs. 60. Now, suppose that a certain item like shaving cream costs $1 in US, and in Pakistan a consumer is charged Rs. 60 for the same shaving cream, then we can say that there is PPP between two countries for that particular item, i.e. Shaving cream.
Extending this point further, assume that in USA the total population is 1 million and all 1million of them can buy that shaving cream; at the same time in Pakistan, suppose that the total population is 10 million and out of that 10 million 1.2 million can afford that shaving cream……then on PPP bases we can say that Pakistani economy is greater than USA for that particular item. This point is further explained in point 2.
2. There are two schools of thought who present diametrically opposite outlook on the economies of the third world.
One school of thought assumes that third world markets are un-tapped consumer markets where business can be done on the bases of volume of sale, since the populations are huge. This school presents the example of Lever Brothers who introduced sachet system of consumer products. Lets take the example of shampoo – in USA if a bottle of shampoo costs $3, if we apply PPP, this bottle should cost Rs. 180 in Pakistan; how many people can spend Rs. 180 on a bottle of shampoo? Not too many. But when same shampoo is packaged in small quantities in plastic sachets and priced at Rs. 5 a piece too many people can buy it. And underlying assumption is that the volume because of population will equalize the profits. So when 50 people buy those sachets each, that equals a bottle bout by 1 person in USA.
The second school of thought also assumes third world as untapped consumer markets but is skeptical of the ideas of first school of thought. This group presents the example of marketing of Coca Cola in China, which turned out to be a failure despite astronomical sales volume. The problem in this case is the investor who is sitting in a first world country and expects profits at par with sales volume. But due to the currency exchange, local taxation, and international laws the profits are pathetic. Now even if we look at Lever Brothers with this perspective, the results are pathetic. So this group asks for a change in strategy – but fails to present any.
My personal perspective on point 1 & 2 is different. Whatever, is presented in point 1 & 2 is the perspective that of a Multinational Corporations. This perspective is created by the business schools whether they are in India, Paksitan, or West, they teach the operating manuals of the MNCs to their students. These schools in third world thus train human resources (business managers) who can further the establishment of MNCs. They are rendered incapable of thinking from the perspective of their societies. Just read 1 & 2, aren`t these the strategies to market Western products in our lands. What is our own manufacturer to do? Become sales agents and distributors for MNCs? Unfortunately, that is what our manufacturers do. We MUST protect and promote our manufacturing base first. Globalization is a curse, which is eating up our purchasing power – our governments who are agents of these MNCs and West are artificially maintaining this purchasing power through internal and external debt. At least bania should understand this.
#19 Posted by ZafarA on October 23, 2002 12:44:15 am
People - the first thing that strikes me after reading the article is not India this Pakistan that blahblahblahb, but that we both have a long, long way to go - and that it would be a faster journey if we travelled together rather than so resolutely separately. Oye, all my fellow Indians - so long as we still have STARVATION DEATHS in India, where do we get off taunting Pakistan for this that or the other? (And yes, I think the people from uss paar have a similar idiocy to us if the first thing they do in response to this article is to try and find where India is worse rather than think about how Pakistan can improve.) Zara sochiye yaaron, life is not a cyberdebate.
#18 Posted by QuantumQuark on October 22, 2002 10:20:21 pm
Poor Godot,
He doesn`t know and doesn`t know that he doesn`t know.
QuantumQuark
He doesn`t know and doesn`t know that he doesn`t know.
QuantumQuark
#17 Posted by LadyAna on October 22, 2002 10:20:21 pm
This is by far one of the BEST, most concise and relevant articles making a case for free trade in the Asian subcontinent, that I have ever read.
note to the authors - May I have permission to utilize this material for classroom discussion purposes (am a student)? Credit will be given to you, naturally.
note to the authors - May I have permission to utilize this material for classroom discussion purposes (am a student)? Credit will be given to you, naturally.
#16 Posted by LadyAna on October 22, 2002 10:20:21 pm
Godot - Lucy is right. This article is presenting nothing but raw statistical cold hard economic facts that are documented in plenty of sources. It is not written to incite patriotic fervor. Pls. treat a business analysis as a business analysis and learn to see the numbers on paper.. performance is reality. Were this article some emotional number with a political or shadi-barati angle, one could see where your statements would fit it.
Just a friendly piece of advice. Stay happy. :)
Just a friendly piece of advice. Stay happy. :)
#15 Posted by bbabu on October 22, 2002 10:20:21 pm
India is still a poor country. The main reason for low economic stats for India is the socialism/license raj policies followed till 1990. The secondary reason was the low literacy rate. That is being fixed as the literacy rate has been rising 10 percentage points every decade.
As far as Pakistan goes it has no choice but to back away from military confrontation with India. Also Pakistani military has to abandon its support of radical Islam. The madrasas seem more interested in breeding terrorists than educated people.
In response to Godot at least India pays its loans back. That can`t be said for Pakistan.
#14 Posted by Shah on October 22, 2002 10:20:20 pm
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#13 Posted by Shah on October 22, 2002 10:19:55 pm
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#12 Posted by Pankaj on October 22, 2002 6:13:43 pm
``Life expectancy at birth is 62.6 years, the infant mortality rate (per 1000 live births) is 69 and the adult literacy rate is 52.2%.
``
Just a minor addition though the author has clearly mentioned that these are 1997 data. The latest 2001 data indicates a gross literacy of 55.3% and a net literacy of 65.4%. The net literacy implies the literacy in the population aged 7 and above and is a better criteria to judge literacy. Following is a report on the 2001 census of India-
Source: http://arunmehta.freeyellow.com/page172.html
#11 Posted by Lucy on October 22, 2002 6:13:43 pm
Ref. Godot`s post #9
I see exposing your factually wrong statements has touched a raw nerve and sent you into hysteria.
Seriously, grow up.
Cheers
Lucy
I see exposing your factually wrong statements has touched a raw nerve and sent you into hysteria.
Seriously, grow up.
Cheers
Lucy
#10 Posted by Pankaj on October 22, 2002 6:13:43 pm
The article could have been better if there was more coverage on Pakistan`s economy. IMO, pakistan enjoyed better growth rates than India between 1955-1980. The authors could have discussed this phase of Pakistani economy in greater details providing an insight into its foundation, causes and why it proved to be unsustainable.
PS Godot, the author has merely stated a fact which is true. Now obviously there is no comparison between Germany and India on per capita, infrastructure or lawfulness of the society. But the gross domestic product(PPP) of India does exceed that of Germany by virtue of its humongous population. China, inspite of being no.2 in GDP, also can not compete against the western nations in terms of aforementioned criteria.
PS Godot, the author has merely stated a fact which is true. Now obviously there is no comparison between Germany and India on per capita, infrastructure or lawfulness of the society. But the gross domestic product(PPP) of India does exceed that of Germany by virtue of its humongous population. China, inspite of being no.2 in GDP, also can not compete against the western nations in terms of aforementioned criteria.
#9 Posted by Godot on October 22, 2002 5:45:51 pm
QuantumQuark, #6, Lucy, #7
Okay, okay...India is the best country on this planet...I wish to be living in that land of the free and home of the barve...a paradise on earth...a land of milk-n-honey...the most enlightened country...where everyone is really smart and tolerant of others to the the extreme...where fair and equal justice for all prevails...where everyone is equal regardless of their religion, race or ethnicity...where murder, killing, rape, arson, and discrimination in the name of religion (or even a caste) is never heard of...a country of ``great`` and ancient ``civilazation``...the country is paused to take over as the world leader...not only economically, but technologically as well...move over you, the US, the racist, intolerant country you...India will show the world what the words ``peace``, ``tolerance`` and ``justice`` really mean...those extremely super highways...from down south all the up to north...and east and west...that will be so much fun to be driving a Porsche on...so easy to buy there...and its autobahn would put Germany to shame...those HDTVs they make...man, they are awesome...their movies are work of art...the most enlightened and remarkable country...the histroy hasn`t seen a like of it...I see all those people yearning to be free lining up the Indian embassies around the world seeking entry to India...I don`t want to be left behind...I know in India no one ever goes hungry...where people count their blessings for living in India...
Me a clown? Yes, yes...I`m one...see my fat lips strechted from ear to ear...that`s when I`m thinking of India...the country I want to go after I die...forget that heaven God promises...for me that`s India...that`s where I want to go after I die...yes, I`m a clown...doesn`t my smile tell you that...it`s the same smile I see on the faces of all Indians who live in India...the smile I know that tells me that they live in total bliss...in a paradise...please, please, you Indians, let me go and live their...please, pretty please, let me live in that paradise...no one will even notice an ingnorant clown like me in that paradise of one billion very smart and totally content people...please, please, please...pretty please...I beg you...
Okay, okay...India is the best country on this planet...I wish to be living in that land of the free and home of the barve...a paradise on earth...a land of milk-n-honey...the most enlightened country...where everyone is really smart and tolerant of others to the the extreme...where fair and equal justice for all prevails...where everyone is equal regardless of their religion, race or ethnicity...where murder, killing, rape, arson, and discrimination in the name of religion (or even a caste) is never heard of...a country of ``great`` and ancient ``civilazation``...the country is paused to take over as the world leader...not only economically, but technologically as well...move over you, the US, the racist, intolerant country you...India will show the world what the words ``peace``, ``tolerance`` and ``justice`` really mean...those extremely super highways...from down south all the up to north...and east and west...that will be so much fun to be driving a Porsche on...so easy to buy there...and its autobahn would put Germany to shame...those HDTVs they make...man, they are awesome...their movies are work of art...the most enlightened and remarkable country...the histroy hasn`t seen a like of it...I see all those people yearning to be free lining up the Indian embassies around the world seeking entry to India...I don`t want to be left behind...I know in India no one ever goes hungry...where people count their blessings for living in India...
Me a clown? Yes, yes...I`m one...see my fat lips strechted from ear to ear...that`s when I`m thinking of India...the country I want to go after I die...forget that heaven God promises...for me that`s India...that`s where I want to go after I die...yes, I`m a clown...doesn`t my smile tell you that...it`s the same smile I see on the faces of all Indians who live in India...the smile I know that tells me that they live in total bliss...in a paradise...please, please, you Indians, let me go and live their...please, pretty please, let me live in that paradise...no one will even notice an ingnorant clown like me in that paradise of one billion very smart and totally content people...please, please, please...pretty please...I beg you...
#8 Posted by harimau on October 22, 2002 4:59:15 pm
The authors write:
[Health care, despite a large presence of public health care delivery systems, is largely in the hands of poorly equipped semi trained medical workers.]
Only if you take into account the practitioners of various indigenous systems of medicine like Ayurvedha, Siddha, Unani, etc. Otherwise, India graduates a lot of MBBSes who compete reasonably effectively in advanced countries such as the US and Europe. So, those who remain in India -- a vast majority of the MBBSes -- do provide allopathic medical care. They cannot be called semi-trained.
[In the initial years, there was a foreign exchange shortage and this had to be successfully managed.]
Not true at all. At Independence, India was owed a huge debt by UK on account of WWII. Forex was plentiful and cheap. Controls over forex were introduced only in 1962 after the border war with China. Even then, the rupee traded at about Rs. 5 to a dollar. As is typical, Indians mismanaged their forex reserves so that India ended up with not much in hand by the 1980s.
[Self-reliance in food was an issue and beginning with the end of the 1960s, the Green Revolution (with an emphasis on hybrid seeds, chemical fertilizers and farm mechanization) gradually transformed India from a country that imported food to one that occasionally exports food.]
Not occasionally. India is the second largest exporter of rice and is beginning to make a dent in the wheat export market. Agricultural exports have exceeded $1 billion in recent years.
[However, the Green Revolution is still limited to some States (Western Uttar Pradesh, Punjab and Haryana) and agricultural productivity levels are still low. The problem is to extend the Green Revolution to other States and increase productivity, perhaps with the use of biotechnology.]
I think the authors haven`t travelled south to witness the green revolution in Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu or in Gujarat or Maharashtra. Enough of the Indian states have surplus food and there is talk of abolishing food zones that prop up prices artificially in deficit states. Already, farmers are complaining that procurement prices are not high enough yet the nation`s warehouses are bulging with 40 million tonnes of food.
Are there starvation deaths? Yes. There is no welfare system by which the poor can get free food as in the US or Europe. But that doesn`t mean that the rats aren`t eating better at the warehouses.
[Health care, despite a large presence of public health care delivery systems, is largely in the hands of poorly equipped semi trained medical workers.]
Only if you take into account the practitioners of various indigenous systems of medicine like Ayurvedha, Siddha, Unani, etc. Otherwise, India graduates a lot of MBBSes who compete reasonably effectively in advanced countries such as the US and Europe. So, those who remain in India -- a vast majority of the MBBSes -- do provide allopathic medical care. They cannot be called semi-trained.
[In the initial years, there was a foreign exchange shortage and this had to be successfully managed.]
Not true at all. At Independence, India was owed a huge debt by UK on account of WWII. Forex was plentiful and cheap. Controls over forex were introduced only in 1962 after the border war with China. Even then, the rupee traded at about Rs. 5 to a dollar. As is typical, Indians mismanaged their forex reserves so that India ended up with not much in hand by the 1980s.
[Self-reliance in food was an issue and beginning with the end of the 1960s, the Green Revolution (with an emphasis on hybrid seeds, chemical fertilizers and farm mechanization) gradually transformed India from a country that imported food to one that occasionally exports food.]
Not occasionally. India is the second largest exporter of rice and is beginning to make a dent in the wheat export market. Agricultural exports have exceeded $1 billion in recent years.
[However, the Green Revolution is still limited to some States (Western Uttar Pradesh, Punjab and Haryana) and agricultural productivity levels are still low. The problem is to extend the Green Revolution to other States and increase productivity, perhaps with the use of biotechnology.]
I think the authors haven`t travelled south to witness the green revolution in Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu or in Gujarat or Maharashtra. Enough of the Indian states have surplus food and there is talk of abolishing food zones that prop up prices artificially in deficit states. Already, farmers are complaining that procurement prices are not high enough yet the nation`s warehouses are bulging with 40 million tonnes of food.
Are there starvation deaths? Yes. There is no welfare system by which the poor can get free food as in the US or Europe. But that doesn`t mean that the rats aren`t eating better at the warehouses.
#7 Posted by QuantumQuark on October 22, 2002 4:12:34 pm
Dear Mr Godot,
Refer Reply# 2
Godot writes: ``3. Authors are wearing deep-pink glasses when viewing Indian economy. Everything looks rosy. With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!``
Your assessment of the Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) is ignorant at best. PPP is indeed a better indicator than pure dollar figures. It takes into account what people can buy locally. In lamer words it judges the income of a person in India (or Algeria) based on the price of potatoes, cars, gasoline in India (or Algeria) Vs in USA. This is an internationally accepted standard in economics. As for India being the PPP 4th largest economy, check out the Economist magazine`s Yearly fact book, it has been that way for the last few years when India`s PPP GDP overtook Germany.
Also support your allegations of plagiarism by citing where it was copied from. Without any proof, it`s your reply that has no credibility or rather the ``joke``.
QuantumQuark
Refer Reply# 2
Godot writes: ``3. Authors are wearing deep-pink glasses when viewing Indian economy. Everything looks rosy. With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!``
Your assessment of the Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) is ignorant at best. PPP is indeed a better indicator than pure dollar figures. It takes into account what people can buy locally. In lamer words it judges the income of a person in India (or Algeria) based on the price of potatoes, cars, gasoline in India (or Algeria) Vs in USA. This is an internationally accepted standard in economics. As for India being the PPP 4th largest economy, check out the Economist magazine`s Yearly fact book, it has been that way for the last few years when India`s PPP GDP overtook Germany.
Also support your allegations of plagiarism by citing where it was copied from. Without any proof, it`s your reply that has no credibility or rather the ``joke``.
QuantumQuark
#6 Posted by Lucy on October 22, 2002 4:12:34 pm
Ref.: Godot`s post
``With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!``
It is always wise to think before speaking so you don`t make a fool of yourself like you just did. You don`t have to believe these authors. Just go read the World Bank`s latest reports. The link is provided below for your convenience. In case you have trouble reading, the data is in the 8th column from the left. You can scroll up and down to your heart`s content and check the data for every country to convince yourself that India is indeed the 4th largest. How does it feel to be a clown? ;)
http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2002/tables/table1-1.pdf
Cheers,
Lucy
``With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!``
It is always wise to think before speaking so you don`t make a fool of yourself like you just did. You don`t have to believe these authors. Just go read the World Bank`s latest reports. The link is provided below for your convenience. In case you have trouble reading, the data is in the 8th column from the left. You can scroll up and down to your heart`s content and check the data for every country to convince yourself that India is indeed the 4th largest. How does it feel to be a clown? ;)
http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2002/tables/table1-1.pdf
Cheers,
Lucy
#5 Posted by pmishra2 on October 22, 2002 2:51:19 pm
If you are sincere in our intentions, please do not add
sentences like:
[quote]
But then Kargil happened and ruined relations between the two countries.
[end-quote]
Is Kargil some kind of disease like flu that just ``happened``? Who made Kargil happen? Isn`t it amazing that the Indian PM visited Lahore, visited Jinnah`s Mazar (cost poor ABP plenty to do that), talked some practical ways to go forward AND surprise !!! There was an invasion of India ! Planned by the brave commando general ``all tactics, no strategy`` Musharraf himself!
Heh, Heh,...
BTW, I assure you India and Pakistan do not have a common fate or future. They may have a common past and share
some common culture. Their futures are quite distinct, as distinct as
Mexico and the USA.
#4 Posted by AAmir on October 22, 2002 2:50:55 pm
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#3 Posted by SameerJB on October 22, 2002 2:50:55 pm
Pakistani economy can catch up and surpass Indian in a hurry.
All Pakistan need is a good year of 25 percent growth rate and 2 percent decline in population. With Musharraf at the helm and prayers from MMA (shias beware), nothing is impossible
or
Pakistanis stop hajj, umra and once-a-year goat/ sheep killing for 5 years.
BIG DEAL
All Pakistan need is a good year of 25 percent growth rate and 2 percent decline in population. With Musharraf at the helm and prayers from MMA (shias beware), nothing is impossible
or
Pakistanis stop hajj, umra and once-a-year goat/ sheep killing for 5 years.
BIG DEAL
#2 Posted by Godot on October 22, 2002 1:54:52 pm
A few observations about this article:
1. Very poorly written
2. This is outright plagiarism, meaning, apart from a few sentences (and those few sentences are pretty bad,) the rest of the article is stolen from other journals, mainly Indian (one can tell from the bias.) The authors don’t know how to even plagiarize well! The stolen paragraphs are entirely disconnected from the preceding ones. This is quite sad considering two people worked on it. They say two heads are better than one. In this case it is worse than half!
3. Authors are wearing deep-pink glasses when viewing Indian economy. Everything looks rosy. With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!
4. Authors are wearing glasses fit for man suffering from severe case of stigmatism when it comes to viewing Pakistan’s economy; they can’t even see straight!
5. Authors have no clue what they are talking about. They don’t know anything about economics and don’t know how to read economic indicators and make an objective observation.
6. Reading this article is a total waste of time.
7. This article belongs in the trash can, not on Chowk.
1. Very poorly written
2. This is outright plagiarism, meaning, apart from a few sentences (and those few sentences are pretty bad,) the rest of the article is stolen from other journals, mainly Indian (one can tell from the bias.) The authors don’t know how to even plagiarize well! The stolen paragraphs are entirely disconnected from the preceding ones. This is quite sad considering two people worked on it. They say two heads are better than one. In this case it is worse than half!
3. Authors are wearing deep-pink glasses when viewing Indian economy. Everything looks rosy. With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!
4. Authors are wearing glasses fit for man suffering from severe case of stigmatism when it comes to viewing Pakistan’s economy; they can’t even see straight!
5. Authors have no clue what they are talking about. They don’t know anything about economics and don’t know how to read economic indicators and make an objective observation.
6. Reading this article is a total waste of time.
7. This article belongs in the trash can, not on Chowk.
#1 Posted by arjun_m on October 22, 2002 1:15:20 pm
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