An All-Inclusive Rejoinder to All the Chronic Complainers

JUST TO KEEP THINGS IN PERSPETIVE PART II


SA Tribune has got a list of over 100 armed forces men who allotted to themselves at least 400 or more acres of prime land in Bahawalpur, heart of Punjab, ``to defend it from the enemy,`` at the throw away rate of Rs 380 per acre (US Dollars Six & 50 cents). The list is only of one District. Such lists exist all over Punjab and Sindh where a new breed of landlords has already been created through similar allotments.

* General Pervez Musharraf, Current President, Village (Moza) Nouabad Yazman, Bahawalpur;
* General Zubair, Chak DB/14;
* General Moinuddin Haider, Current Interior Minister, DB/43;
* General Aziz, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, BC/16;
* General Iqbal, BC/16;
* General Saroop, BC/17;
* General Javed, DB/61;
* General Irashad Moin;
* General Zarar Niazi, DB/64;
* General Zulifkar Ali (Current Wapda chief) 54/P;
* Lt General Saleem Haider 54/p;
* Lt General Mohammad Akram 94/9;
* Lt. General Mohammad Naeem;
* Lt General Mohammad Afzal Janjua 54/P;
* Lt General Amin Burki( 96/p);
* Lt General Khalid Maqbool (Current Governor Punjab) 54/P;
* Lt General Irshad Hussain;

and

* Brig Iftikar, Chak 46/P
* Brig Shahid Naeem, Chak 46/P
* Brig Ziaullah, IL/119;
* Brig Saddik Khan, 54/P;
* Brig Masoud Bashir; 54/P
* Brig Pervez Akhtar son of Saleem Khan; 54/P
* Colonel Shaukat Hayat, IL/123;
* Colonel Safdar Hussain, 250/P;
* Colonel Mohammed Tariq Khan, 256/P ;
* Colonel Bahadur Nawaz, 256/P
* Lt Colonel Ahmad Yar Khan, 44/46;
* Lt Colonel Abdur Rahim Khan, 93/P;
* Lt Colonel Arshad Pervez Khan, 93/P

more at:

http://www.satribune.com/archives/Aug17_23_02/P1_landgrabbing.htm

__________________________________________________________


DISCLAIMER:

i love the faujis...please do not get me wrong...have stated my position before...just for the record:


http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001483&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

...t

Humsab: I certainly will comment over the weekend.
Sadna: Excellent remarks. Pakistan and Pakistani politics today is absolutely the product of military involvement with ZAB, BB, NS, Jamali, Altaf Hussain, Jehadis, mullahs and the rest are there because of military interference all over the affairs of Pakistan for the last 45 years. The military establishment shares lion share of blame even if BB and NS are considered failed governments. All military has to do is to swear on Quran not to interfere in domestic and foreign affairs for at least 20 years and most of the current crop of leaders would disappear in wilderness. Every party has talented and capable leadres but they are not cut out for agitation, angry, fire-brand speech deliverers, pliant, turncoats, expedients and yes men that are necessary to be on the top in a military dominated atmosphere. I can name Aithzaz Ahsan, Shah Mahmood Qurshi, Javed Hashmi, Ch. Ehsan Iqbal, Khurram Dastgir, Ch. Anwar, Khwaja Asif, Zubeida JAlal, Asghar Khan, Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan, Mahmood Khan Achakzai, Asma Jahangir and many many more but they need a non-military dominated atmosphere to perform and shine above the current crop of leadership. Unfortunately there has always been a Hameed Gul, Javed Ashraf Qazi or Zamir representing and acting on the directives of military establishment, making and breaking a crop of leaders in order to keep their control over all state machinery and policies.
Some people fail to understand the principle of cost effectiveness. Even if, for the sake of discussion, Musharraf is accepted a marginally better administrator than NS or BB, the price to get one person is roughly one-third of the annual budget because except for ``providing`` Musharraf they have failed in every arena they were trained for. BB or NS are not sitting on top of a money eating machine. BB and NS are measured against each other and Musharraf as the ultimate product of 3 billion dollars per year investment. What else have they delivered? Bangladesh, Kashmir, Siachen, education, doctors, engineers, clean drinking water, bridges, roads, industries? Nothing but Musharraf, defense colonies, stifling competition in industries, plots and land grabs for mutually exclusive military elites, Altaf Hussain Nawaz Sharif, Jamali, Jehadis, cheating, fraud and manipulation of elections.
Not that without Musharraf, investment in military will drop but as a matter of principle, board of directors represents investment and output side and not spending guzzler.

Romair:

I have not had a chance to see the link because my company`s web watch software keepls blocking the site.

I will read it from another terminal.

In any case, I remember you yourself said that the problem in Pakistan is the lack of institution building. The politicians that you blame, maybe much worse than Indian politicians, but they are a by product of a system where they had to kowtow to the Army.

The usage of the Army to rule the country only erodes it`s institutions further. In any case, in principle, the nation of Pakistan constituting it`s people, are far superior to the Army. If the people are voting for religious parties, then those parties should come to power. If there is a coalition, then it should be created by the people elected, not a supra-entity that changes rules to suit it`s conveniences. God knows I am no fan of Islamic parties, but right now they seem to be the only principled lot in Pakistan.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

hey romair:

the karachi page link does not work. can you please post the complete article.

Romair:

As far as Bhutto`s story is concerned, I feel like laughing. She was after all the Prime Minister. We had the IT dep`t conduct a raid on the Telecom Minister. They found crores of ruppes in cash behind idols of Hindu Gods in the ``prayer room``.

That man, instead of being sent to jail, switched parties and is currently in the Himachal Pradesh government. Damn right situations like this piss me off...damn right I love to imagine the Army taking over and shooting the dude in the back of the head..but hey, in the real world, democracy is the least of all imperfect systems.

Stuka: I hope you had a chance to read the link I provided for Nawaz Sharif.

Since we are debating who has more corrupt politicians, I am reproducing an article by internationally respected American writer in Canada, Eric Margolis, on BB. He is an expert on South Asia. Can you point me to something similar on Indian politicians:

````Foreign Correspondent
PAKISTAN`S ``PRINCESS`` DETHRONED
by Eric Margolis
January 19, 1998

Benzair Bhutto and her relatives have finally been exposed
as world-class thieves.

Extensive investigations of the former Pakistani prime
minister and her family by Pakistan, international forensic
specialists, and the `New York Times,` concluded Bhuttos and
her in-laws may have stolen a staggering $US 1.5 billion.

Benazir Bhutto, twice prime minister of Pakistan, and the
first female to head a Muslim nation, was idolized by the
western media. She was beautiful and glamorous, gushed
women`s magazines, educated at Harvard. Better yet, Bhutto
openly scorned Islamic tradition, and mocked pious Muslims,
She denounced Islamic fundamentalism, drank in private, and
conducted an open affaire with an American diplomat.

Twice kicked out of office for corruption and incompetence,
Bhutto blamed her dismissal on male jealousy and hatred for
her family. Westerners rallied to Bhutto as a lovely lady
and democrat, relentlessly harassed by brutal, chauvenist
Pakistani generals, notably President Zia ul-Haq.

Benazir inherited the media role previously held by
Egypt`s late strongman, Anwar Sadat: the `good Muslim`
leader, a `moderate` who complied with American wishes, and
was ready to accept Israel. Support from liberals in the US
Congress helped keep Bhutto in power.

To Pakistanis. she showed a different face. The Bhuttos,
are one of Pakistan`s 100 families of enormously powerful,
feudal landowners who pay almost no taxes. They rode to
power on a platform of rabid populism. Benazir`s father,
brilliant, fiery Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, became prime minister
by promising Pakistan`s poor all sorts of curry-in-the-sky.
Zulfikar and daughter Benazir became masters at whipping up
crowds, appealing to the ignorance or greed of desperate
illiterates. Gullible supporters actually believed the
Bhuttos would shower them with cash handouts, free housing,
cheap food and fuel.

Watching the Bhuttos always disgusted me. They lived and
behaved like maharajahs, while pretending to be part of the
people. Ali Bhutto treated even his cabinet ministers like
serfs, and inflicted a reign of sexual terror on the wives
and daughters of his retainers and political supporters.
Benazir and her imperious mother, Nusrat, deported
themselves like Iranian princesses, complete with palaces,
chauffeured Rolls-Royces, and an army of lackeys and
lickspittles.

The world refused to see the real Benazir, or the outrageous
behavior of her new husband, Asif Zardari and his thieving
family. This column was one of the few voices outside
Pakistan trying to expose the Bhutto`s corruption,
hypocrisy, and lies.

In August, 1990, I revealed in the Toronto Sun that Hakim
Ali Zardari, Benazir`s father-in-law had secretly deposited
400 million pounds (US $652 million) in a London bank - in
1990 alone. British authorities suspected the money came
from drug payoffs. Zardari pere had been appointed by
Benazir as head of a commission overseeing all government
contracts for honesty!

My story was widely reported by the Pakistani press. I was
warned acid would be thrown in my face on my next trip to
Pakistan. The Pakistani Embassy accuse me of `vituperation`
and slander.

Now, eight years later, the truth about the Bhuttos/Zardaris
has finally exploded. Investigators have traced US $100
million in secret foreign bank accounts and property to
them. An investigation begin in 1996 suggests the corrupt
first couple obtained a staggering $1.5 billion from
kickbacks and bribes, bled from almost every sector of
Pakistan`s feeble economy.

So far, investigators have linked Benazir`s shady husband,
Asif Zardari, known as `Mr 10%,` to a $200 million bribe
paid by French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault, and millions
more from a Swiss company hired to supervise Pakistani
customs.

A Pakistani gold dealer was discovered to have paid Zardari
$10 million in cash after the government granted him a
monopoly on gold imports into Pakistan. The bribe money went
into one of Zardari`s secret, overseas accounts, that
stretch from Abu Dhabi to the British Virgin Islands.

As I reported last fall, Swiss banks froze 17 secret
Bhutto/Zardari accounts worth millions, after suspicions
that part of the funds may have come from drugs. Pakistan
and neighboring Afghanistan are the world`s largest
producers and exporters of heroin.

Last summer, financial detectives Kroll Associates, managed
to buy, for $1 million cash, documents stolen from the
Geneva office of the Bhutto`s long-time lawyer and manager
of their secret accounts, . This information provided
evidence of $100 million in kickbacks, bribes, and outright
theft from land, aircraft, rice, petroleum and arms deals.
Investigators call it the tip of the iceberg. After all,
Benazir Bhutto was Finance Minister as well as Prime
Minister. Husband Ali Baba Zardari was Pakistan`s
Investment Minister. His hands were in every pocket.

What makes the massive thievery of the Bhuttos and Zardaris
so uniquely disgusting is that Pakistan is one of the
world`s poorer nations. Some 70% of its 132 million people
are illiterate. At least a third lack adequate housing,
food or medical care.

While robbing Pakistan blind, the Bhuttos lived like the
royalty they believed themselves to be, bought huge estates
abroad, bribed US congressmen, and proclaimed themselves
patriots, democrats, and champions of the `little people.`
With imperial disdain for common decency or public opinion,
the Bhuttos moved in 1996 into a new $55 million mansion in
Islambad, with a lovely view of their impoverished nation.


The Bhuttos covered up and then suppressed investigation of
the murder of Pakistan`s former ruler, President Zia ul-Haq,
a man of outstanding honesty, in which they may have had a
hand, perhaps with American collusion. While stealing food
from the mouths of children, the Bhuttos denounced Islamic
movements that demanded social reform, and an end to
corruption, as `dangerous Muslim extremists,` ..

This writer knows of no greater hypocrites anywhere than the
Bhuttos. They have been a scourge to Pakistan for three
decades. Bhutto`s economic mismanagement alone saddled
Pakistan with ruinous debts that now consume 70% of
government spending. She and her family first plundered
Pakistan, then hocked it to its ears. .

In 1996 Benazir declared $42,200 in income, and paid $5,110
in tax. Hubby Zardari declared income of a mere $13,100. The
word `shame` was not in their vocabulary.

Asif Zardari is now in prison, charged with complicity in
the murder of Benazir`s brother, Murtaza, who tried to wrest
the Bhutto political movement away from her. Younger
brother, Shahnawaz was poisoned on the Riviera in 1985,
reportedly because of disputes with his family over access
to secret funds stolen by papa, Zulfikar Bhutto, and stashed
in Switzerland..


Bhutto lamely claims she`s been framed by political enemies.
Supporters claim she didn`t know what the Zardaris were
doing. Only if she were a deaf, dumb, and blind.

The Bhuttos, Zardaris and other feudalists have turned
Pakistan. which was created as a beacon of morality for the
world`s Muslims, into a cesspool. .

I feel not a whit of sympathy for Benazir. Like the late,
loathsome Shah of Iran, and his thieving relatives, Benazir
hated and was embarrassed by her own country. She despised
her people as backward primitives, and scorned their Islamic
faith. Like the Shah, she wished her country was located in
the Swiss Alps, not Asia, and longed to be European. . Like
Sadat, she played and pandered to the credulous western
media.

Bhutto probably planned to move one day to Paris, become an
international celebrity, and live in imperial style on the
vast fortune she and her family had stolen from the very
people they claimed to champion.

As far as I`m concerned, a jail cell shared with her husband
and father-in-law, not Paris, is what `Princess` Benazir
deserves.

Copyright E. Margolis, January 1998``

re ROmair #37:

Dude, it will not be your dead body the Pakistani public will stomp over when they finally throw out the occupying army because you were lucky to get out. Your compatriots in arms will not be as lucky as they were in East Pakistan. Get ready to welcome loads of your comrades in your Fremont home when the grim reaper strikes. You can then invite Bilal Musharraf to preside over that government in waiting.

later
-sac

#37 by Romair
//..
Indian parties believe in democracy within their own parties...Is there a concept of Chairperson for Life in the Congress or BJP, like there is in the PPP? ...
//

Chairperson for Life: officially no - but effectively, the ``Gandhi`` family ``owns`` Congress party. And a number other influential regional parties like TDP, Trinamul Congress, AIADMK are basically one person shows - there is no internal democracy in these parties.

But you have a point here - Indian politicians, at least some of them, do seem to fare better than their pakistani counterparts. If this is true then that`s because Indian political system have evolved much better than that in pakistan.

Now why do you think political system didn`t evolve well in Pakistan? We all know the answer - it is because of the Army. BB, NS etc are as evil as they are because they are product of a very skewed, inbred and violent political culture created by a military state dominated by egoistic,quixotic generals.

You can blame BB, NS etc. all you want - but they are just the symptoms, not the cause. They are like thorny little cacti that have spawn on the dry,barren political landscape very deliberately created by the Army. And only things that will ever spawn in such land is more of the same cactus, nothing else. You want political behemoths to grow in there then you have got to reshape the landscape and pump some juice into the land and more importantly - weed out the well-entrenched parasites, otherwise knows as Pakistan Armed Forces.

If Musharraf is better than BB, NS - only time will tell. But consider this: If NS was so bad then pakistan could have just waited two more years and vote him out. Then Imran Khan ( or some other ``good`` politician ) would have got a chance to launch a major campaign on how corrupt both BB, NS are and would have a much better chance of getting to power, at least as a major coalition partner. And if Imran Khan is such an angel as you claim - then that would have changed pakistan`s political landscape for better. At the least, pakistani people would have retained their right to shape and size their politics and there-by evolving a better political culture.

But instead, as it turned out - you guys started cheerleading the same upsurpers who are root cause of the problems in the first place and continue to do so till date.

ROmair #37
The arguments you make against politicians may have worked 50 years ago when Ayub Khan took over. These days, everyone, just everyone knows how the Army has screwed around with Pakistan since then.

If it hadn`t been for Ayub Khan and co, you would have a functioning Parliament and Constitution instead of grand detours through One Unit and Basic Democrats and doctrines of necessity. If it hadn`t been for Yahya Khan, ZABhutto wouldnot be PM of Pakistan. If it hadn`t been for Zia Ul Haq, ZAB wouldn`t be a martyr and his daughter wouldn`t been a heroine for life . If it hadn`t been for Zia Ul Haq, Nawaz Sharif wouldn`t have risen above Sugar minister or Chief Minister of Punjab.

The present elected members and elected government know just like all past politicians that they are unlikely to finish their term in Parliament, and that their standing for election(if elections are held again) again is uncertain, because all these things affecting their future careers are going to be decided by the Army, not by any longstanding public agenda of their parties or any competence in governance while showing independence from the Army. And only Army bootlickers are allowed to take office, what sort of selection criteria is that?

As I said, everyone knows, even the Indians.

As if murdering Muslims in NWFP was not enough, this despot has started using state machinery to crush people of Paksitan in Karachi as well. At least one person is already dead in the state coerced violence that is happening between two MQM factions. Shame on altaaf hussain as well, for he has set a price again for mohajir blood just to get his people into the government which does not seem to last for more than two months. Lets not pretend here for just one second that after this election Paksitan is not under Martial Law. As long as generals are running this country from ghq, the country is under martial law. The word LFO does not sanctify the word martial law. I dont care if 178 syasi haramzaday tell me otherwise.

SameerJB ji

Your valuable comments are solicited on an article written by Mr. Ishtiaq Ahmed on Pakistan Movement. This Article is there in latest edition of The Friday Times.

Thanks in anticipation.

I second Ali1. The best thing happened to Pakistan yet, is this `Democrat` general. Now the democracy engine is starting to move again, let`s help it to full steam.

The need of the hour is stability and economic growth, in which the general is doing a better job. If he can successfully launch an era where democracy can`t be hindered frequently, and cycle of 5 yrs election are continue un-interupted. Then, and then we will see the real progress. When I said he can I really mean he can, becuase the army has the will and the power.

stuka #20: ``Ya gotta be kidding me...I know u made that statement in jest, but hell BB and Nawaz were not that bad...they were corrupt...so what..every politician is corrupt...our politicians are way more corrupt than yours..but we still gotta stick with democracy.. ``

Please visit http://www.karachipage.com/nawazsharif/nawaz.html

One must give credit where its due.

Just like Pakistanis are better looking than Indians, similarly Indian politicians (though Indians may find it hard to believe) are quite a bit better lot than Pakistani politicians. Indian Generals are also a better lot than Pakistani Generals (I am only talking about the Army here, PAF and Navy could be a different story).

I don`t think you realize the level of corruption in Pakistani politics in comparison with Indian politics - both financial and moral. I followed the tehelka exposed arms scandal in India quite closely. I couldn`t help laughing when I heard the meagre amounts of money involved. In Pakistan, the amounts would have been many times that. If you ever get a chance, try to get reports from international resources and Transparency International about the amounts of money involved in BB and NS deals. Indian politicians will seem like angels.

I understand that the BJP has done what no Pakistani politician has done in a long long time, i.e. kill its own citizens through organized violence, but I don`t think the BJP is as corrupt as its Pakistani counterparts.

Secondly, at least Indian parties believe in democracy within their own parties. They hold some sort of an election. Is there a concept of Chairperson for Life in the Congress or BJP, like there is in the PPP? Could any of the Indian parties, in their wildest dreams, think about physically storming the Supreme Court? Would they fire two COAS, within a year? What the hell did NS get from firing the gentlemanly COAS like Jehangir Karamat, without reason? He dug his own grave. Would an Indian PM do that? Did Vajpayee dump the massive intellgence blunders made by India in Kargil on the military alone? Didn`t he take equal blame? Did he order Indian soldiers in battle one day, got them killed, than backed out the next, like NS?

How many off-shore companies does Sonia Gandhi own? If you want to get the list of off-shore companies owned by Zardari, please contact any newspaper. Does Chandrababu have torture cells, where people drill holes into others` kness like MQM and Altaf Hussain?

Can any Indian politician even think about kidnapping a journalist of the level of Najam Sethi, from his bedroom at night, locking his wife in the bathroom, without any notice to his family, and get away with it?

I have yet to see a story on BBC titled, ``Princess and the Playboy`` about any Indian politician.

Can an Indian local supported by the feudal hold a panchayat in his land and order the gang-rape of an innocent woman and force her to walk naked in front of others? Can an ex-Indian MNA sell of ten little girls into marraige as revenge for a crime in his lands?

Imran Khan did commentary for the 1996 World Cup semi final between India and Pakistan from an Indian Channel. Why? Because his face was banned on Pakistan TV by the sitting govt. Not only that, Mushahid Hussain had banned any ads about the cancer hospital on Pakistani TV, because Imran Khan was NS opponent in politics. Could something like this happen in India?

Junoon, the rock band, were banned by both BB and NS, because they spoke out against corruption. They actually had to go to India to do concerts. Could something like that happen in India? Interestingly, Junoon are big supporters of Imran Khan and Musharraf.

Could an Indian politician come on national TV and state that his party will end co-education because it leads to illegitimate children and then see his party win big?

Indians always think that their democracy and politicians are equivalents in corruption to that of the Pakistani lot. There is a huge difference. Believe me. I am not quite sure how BJP got elected, because they are doing things that no Pakistani politician has done. But if they were elected in Pakistan, they would have done even worst, because they could have stormed the Supreme Court whenever they wanted to.

I do not support Army rule, in general. But all the options (AH, BB, NS) are proven dictators and non-democrats. Maulvis are democratic and relatively honest, but they have other serious issues. The true democrats, like Imran Khan, have no shot in this system. If it is a battle of dictators, then I will support the least harmful one, or the most honest one - who happens to be Musharraf, at the moment. The moment another better option appears, I will support it.

I am not disappointed in Musharraf`s dictatorship. I just wish he wouldn`t have been wishy-washy, with the referendum and Q party. I wish he would kicked out the whole lot of them and then held elections and then retired on Oct 12.

So I am dead serious about, ``over my dead body.`` BB, NS, AH are corrupt scoundrels. Many people want this status quo to return. You can seem some of them on this site. They have a lot to gain from the status quo. If they really wanted democracy, they would first ask these parties to become democratic, themselves. They never ask for that.

Musharraf is illegitimate. He is a dictator. He has made one wrong decision after the other, since the referedum. I give him a B+ pre-referendum and C to C- post-referendum. But even his biggest critics don`t doubt his honesty and sincerity. At least the guy`s heart is in the right place. And Pakistan has stablized greatly economically - if not according to SameerJB, at least according to Moody`s, IMF, World Bank, Paul O`Neil, ADB, EU etc. Its much better than anything BB and NS and their feudals did. I give them an F and I give the maulvis a D.

In such a scenario, what other choice is there, but to make sure these morons are kept at bay, under the hope that the status quo changes enough so well-meaning people like Imran Khan, Omer Asghar Khan (now dead), Zubeida Jalal, etc. can come to the top.

{The Musharraf Amin Faheem meeting took place after midnight on Margala Hill Restaurant with practically nobody there on top of a mountain at that time. He has never walked in Aab Para}

correction,,it was brunch meeting,,,not midnight one,,,any way its not important.

some people are of the opinion that Faisal Saleh Hayat`s defection is a part of secret deal BB made with PML Q, so they can look good in the eyes of ppl and ARD........ in this way they are helping PMLQ to form a Govt and later on Zardari` s release and BB`s coming back plan can take place.

There is still no strict action taken agaisnt Faisal and others except a very non formal type showcause notice......

if this is the case.....i admit good move BB...very clever.

What is the price for the 10 PPP members who defected ?