Teasing or Torture?

Wow, I am so surprised that ``eve-teasing`` exists in Pakistan. I thought it was a word coined in India, and was an inherently Indian problem. I guess the subcontinent is more similar than we think.

I visited India when I was fourteen years old, and trust me it was the first time I ever experienced sexual harassment. It was really, really bizarre, and I did not know how to react. My little cousin and I were strolling by the beach totally immersed in a conversation when we heart rude calls and invitations. Trying to make the situation better, I politely interceded (which was stupid, I should have simply ignored them) ``Wow the people in this town are so friendly.`` Unfortunately, the guy could not understand my accent, and I had to repeat what I said like 3 times. I think his ego was hurt that he could not understand my English (which in India is an insult I don`t know why). Then when he finally understood, he came up to me so that there was an inch left between us and angrily replied ``Yeah? I`ll show you what friendly is...`` He was checked by his friends, while I was dragged away by my LITTLE cousin and was rendered speechless.

I think if a guy wants to sexually harass a girl, he should atleast try one his own age. The guy was like 20 and I was 14. I am also a very small person, and have always been told I look much younger than I am. So I must have appeared to be 12 to him! What was he thinking, trying to sexually corner a 12 year old! Nothing short of child molestation.

The Hudood Ordinance boggles the mind.
It fails to differentiate between zina (adultery) and zina-bil-Jabr (rape). Four male witnesses are required to prove adultery or rape. (What if rape is committed in front of a hundred women???) Pregnancy, any similar physical evidence is taken as proof that the WOMAN was an adulterer; the only way she can prove her innocence is by PROVING that she was raped, and for this the law requires 4 witnesses who have ``actually seen the act being committed`` and who will testify that the woman did not consent. The onus of proof lies on the victim. She must prove her innocence. The woman is the loser in either case, it is easier for the man to go free. The consequence, of course, is that it discourages women to bring cases of rape against their rapist and it encourages men to rape women.

I cant understand the people of this country. There are times when I am proud to be Pakistani and this isnt one of those times. Nobody seems to respect women in this country. They are treated as objects of lust. The day women are respected in this part of the world is a day when hell freezes over.

A thoght-provoking effort!

Frend-frand #71:
Who said I included America in the list of ``civilised`` countries? :))
BTW, an aside but an important one- apparently georgie W. and his cohorts are so sick of every second American marriage headed down the drain they`re gonna include marriage training in the syllabus and spend millions of dollars trying to keep families together! (todays` ToI)
If only they knew the secret that Indian/Paki families have long known--- when you don`t have a choice, it`s the best choice!!

Tahmed & urstruly. #67,#68,#72,#75.

4:2 says at the end: ``And if when they are honourably married and they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of punishment prescribed for free women``.

24:2 prescribes the punishment for adultery..````The adulterer and the adulturess,scourge ye each one of them with a hundred stripes``.

I hope this helps.

Looking at the m-w.com definition, a clarification. A while ago when making a point on the prevalence of profanities like f_k I used the word fornication but I meant plain old sex (which was perhaps the original sin in Christianity and the reason Adam and Eve were banished from Eden?)

dost mittar #73 That is my point!! The Quran is fundamentally directed towards the individuals, his intentions and his deeds. It is not a Code Napoleon or a Constitutional Paper. This is a different paradigm altogether from the one that the ``religious types`` among muslims live in. Thus, the Quran emphasizes kindness, forgiveness, mercy. Since these are the attributes of a good human. The only place where it permits violence is in Self-Defense. This is no different than saying that your freedom of action ends where my nose begins. This does not mean that I stick my nose into people`s personal lives (which is what fornication is all about) and call for cruel punishments that are a travesty of common sense, basic decency and Islam.

urstruly #72 The blithe manner in which you treat such important issues (women in Pakistan are being raped every day and fear to tell anyone given the animals in the police force, mosques, etc.) leads me to conclude that you are not as serious about religious matters as you claim. You just pick on the ``I think`` part as if it negates in any way clear conclusion of the travesty of justice and of Islam that is the Hadood Ordinance shows me you are not capable of the open mind you promised to maintain your earlier post which led me to waste my time trying to explain this to you. If you have any doubts about this reference to the Quran, I suggest you go read that book carefully since you are obviously quite ignorant of the religion you swear by on every third post on chowk.
On the remaining question of why your mind is closed on these matters, I think my response to dost-mittar provides a good indication (i.e. the different paradigms in the Quranic teachings vs. Mullah teachings.

tahmad

``consider this: the Quran says (it is the fourth sura i think) ....``

Reply:

You think? You have to do better than that dude. If this is the way you are gonna argue then my reply is ``I think it does not apply``

soundmeister

Thanks for setting up the context. I will keep that in mind. I am a little tied up which prevents me from writing lengthy posts. But I will see over the weekend. No promises.

urstruly #68 fair enough. consider this: the Quran says (it is the fourth sura i think) that if a couple are found fornicating, punish them UNLESS they repent. In that case, the Quran says, LET THEM GO IN PEACE.
The Hadood Ordinance, by contrast, does not carry over this very important instruction from the Quran - it makes lashings etc. a requirement EVEN IF the couple expresses repentence.
This about the implications. The difference between the Quran and the Hadood Ordinance are night and day on this point.
And this is consistent with the other differences between the Quran and Islamic law as understood in the Quran - the Quran repeatedly calls for mercy and compassion and forgiveness. Sahriah law, the creation of evil men and implemented by blind followers of other men, makes no such provision and is rightly considered synonymous with cruelty.
Also note that STONING to death is NOWHERE prescribed in the Quran. It crept into shariah laws from ancient jewish traditions - and has long been discarded even by the jews. But muslim fundamentalists find it in harmony with their cruel natures, and keep this brutal custom alive in the name of God. God will have something to say to them on this issue too, I am sure, at an opportune time.

Urstruly#66:
Sounds good. Just setting the context, some definitions from Merriam-Webster---

1. Main Entry: fornication
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other -- compare ADULTERY

2. Main Entry: adultery
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of avoutrie, from Middle French, from Latin adulterium, from adulter adulterer, back-formation from adulterare
Date: 15th century
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery

3. Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception -- compare STATUTORY RAPE b : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman
3 : an outrageous violation

4. Main Entry: statutory rape
Function: noun
Date: 1898
: sexual intercourse with a person who is below the statutory age of consent

My stand:
In favour of 1.
Qualified support (case-by-case) for 2. Hubby may be impotent, wifey may be frigid, divorce not an option.
Strongly against 3. This includes sex with animals and others incapable of giving consent.
Against 4. Frankly it`s illegal. But certain borderline cases might exist where it`s justified.... e.g. when both partners are teenagers, when the partners are in love and one is marginally underage etc.

Ball`s in Urs court...

tahmad32


``The punishments for fornication that you mention from the Hadood Ordinance are in violation of the Quran``

Please support your claim with evidence that you have; by doing that you can save the ``aakhirat`` of billions. I am open to your point of view. On the other hand I can support my claim with evidence; are you open to my point of view?

Soundmeister # 64

Good questions. Why fornication is forbidden or should be, in any society. This question needs a detailed answer. I intend to write an answer which is not based on any religious or non-religious moral values. I intend to prove that fornication is ``anti-human``. Unfortunately my hands are tied at the moment - if I dont get back to you we will talk about it in near future

Urstruly: The punishments for fornication that you mention from the Hadood Ordinance are in violation of the Quran, not consistent with it. AND the Quran says you, as an individual, will be held responsible for using your God-given faculties, including your ability to think for yourself. By simply accepting what an evil man (Zia) introduced in this country for his personal benefit (blasphemy laws, hadood ordinance, which are a travesty of Islam and a travesty of good sense), you are opening yourself up to some SERIOUS cross-examination on the Judgement Day. If you really believe in it, i.e., as I assume you do.

urstruly #61
Thanks for a succinctly informative post.