My Little Bit of Hindu

re: harimau to romair

{Weren`t you the one suggesting that one should wear a T-Shirt with the Pakistani flag on it post-9/11? Now you wouldn`t be bothered if somebody abandoned his Pakistani heritage? }

re: urstruly

{I am a soor}

...knew that...

harimau #129: ``Weren`t you the one suggesting that one should wear a T-Shirt with the Pakistani flag on it post-9/11? Now you wouldn`t be bothered if somebody abandoned his Pakistani heritage?``

I am amazed at the number of comments of mine that you can remember. I will take that as a compliment.

The remark I made about the T-Shirt was in jest, i.e. it was supposed to be funny. I had stated, and please correct me if I am wrong since you seem to remember my remarks better than I, that since the USA was getting so chummy with Pakistan during the post 9/11 days, and their were some Indians who being mistakenly targeted violently by Americans since they looked Middle Eastern, they would be safer wearing a T-Shirt with Pakistan`s flag on it.

That was actually a fact. Since during that time, Pakistan was the USA`s favorite country.

``So, Kashmiris can live contentedly in India despite their Kashmiri heritage? Wow! That`s a revelation!``

Yes by all means, if they want to. If Kashmiris want to live with India, they should live with India. Since India claims all of Kashmir to be part of India, and I am from Muzzafarabad, Pakistan Kashmir, I am actually an Indian according to the Indian constitution. If all of Kashmir decides to join with India willingly, who knows you and I could be countrymen :)

If anyone wants (wants being the key word) to live with any country they should be allowed to. If Kashmiris want to live with Pakistan, they should also, and if they want to live by themselves, they should as well (or if they want to join China, they should be allowed to). I think India (and maybe even Pakistan) is trying to foricbly make them a part of its, ``Indian`` heritage. Atut-ang and all that stuff. It is historically the concept of, ``Atut-ang`` all over the world, that has led to the biggest human rights violations. The British considered everything their atut-ang and colinized everyone. Pakistanis considered Bangladesh its atut-ang. Russians considered the Baltics their atut-ang, etc. etc.

If Bangladeshis don`t want to live me me, a Pakistani, by all means they should live by themselves. Why should I force them to live with me? And why should I be bothered if they form their own country? I don`t really care. If a wife does not want to live with her husband, then does the husband have a right to beat her up and force her to stay with him? I hope your answer to that is a loud, ``No`` - specially if the wife, as in the case of Kashmir, had never agreed to marry the guy in the first place (he kidnapped her).

Let people live wherever they want. Let them define their own heritage. That is my whole point, in fact.

``Well, that`s because it is difficult to attempt to analyze an Abdul-looking character. Easier to classify them all as terrorists and deport them to their home country.``

This is actually what is happening. I don`t think it is happening in Canada, but in the USA (the more I meet Canadians, the more I am begining to realize that they have a different outlook to politics than the USA. Infact, they have a love-hate relationship with the USA. They love and admire to the point of envy USA`s domestic policy, and hate its foreign policy. Kind of like the relationship I have with the USA.

I think, in the long run, the USA is going to be at a great loss, due to the racist policies it is slowly putting into place. It is a counterproductive over-reaction. to a great tragedy (WTC). India lost many more people in the Union Carbide incidence, than the US lost in WTC, however it did not throw all US companies out of India. It only targeted Union Carbide (I believe - not sure).

Nearly everyone who comes to the USA has a vested interest here. They want to be in the USA. 99.999999999% of them aren`t terrorists. And the terrorists are too clever to be caught at airports (can you name a couple of terrorists that have been caught at any US airport?).

The people whom the US is now discriminating against are actually well-wishers of the USA. They like something there. That is why they visit it or live there. I consider myself a part of this group. This the group of Muslims and Middle Easterners an etc. that the US needs to keep on its side, since the USA is already hated (rightly and wrongly) by everyone from France to Indonesia (Muslims and non-Muslims). This is the group that actually defends the US in arguments while they are in their countries of birth. Unfortunately, this is the group that the US is alienating. So now the people who liked the US are going to start hating it, also.

As an example, I don`t defend the US domestic policy with the same enthusiasm as I used to before. And I criticize US foreign policy with much more intensity now. Infact, in a year or two, I will probably be in Canada. Not because I have faced any racism in the USA, but because I think the USA is slowly transforming (back) into a racist society. And because I don`t want my taxes paying for any furthur foreign policy killings by the USA. One should put one`s money where one`s mouth is.

Remeber, it has only been thirty years since the USA ended official legal segregation against Blacks (it was one of the last countries in the world to do so). And many of the current US foreign policymakers grew up and practiced in those segregated societies (ironically a couple of the policymakers are Black, themselves, now). If there is one more 9/11 type of attack, I think the whole US society will be transformed (it is on the fence at the moment), and that will effect not only Middle-Easterners, but anyone who looks like them like all South Asians etc. The adults will be able to look after themselves, but their kids will face a lot of racism at school.

The above is one of the disadvantages of heritages.

It makes no odds with me what Pakistanis choose as their identity. But since people have responded indirectly to my post, I will say its dishonest to say that only rituals have been affected by an explicit rejection of Hindus and Hinduism and no other aspect of Pakistani life has been affected.

One of the primary values of insaaniyat as taught to children too is an explicit rejection of Hindus and Hinduism. As I said its your choice what Pakistani children are taught. As a further to the shopping cart analogy, the Indonesians have the same cart as Pakistanis and at least one of the aisles has similar variety. They at least move freely along with their shopping cart without being circumscribed and worrying like Pakistanis about crossing the international border drawn through every aspect of their lives, public values and symbols, religion, customs, arts, how they relate to other cultures, national relations with outside world, political ideologies, inside their minds.

hamidm2 #105
`put goebbels to shame`

hamidm2ji you are forgetful. It was you who said war is noble.

PAK IDENTITY,

The central question of pak identity has not been resolved, and naming it the islamic republic is the first thing, thanks to zia. All of its identity has to flow from it, from the book, which incidently is written in arabic. The prayes, for thousands of years, was namaz, now it is salay the arabic one. The creation of pakistan and the TNT has defined the identity as non-indian, that is where the problem lies. The poor people of pakistan has to create one, and only guideline is the book and mosels from arabia that have put the book to practice long before the creation of pakistan.

It is natural that the average pakistani looks towards arabs. The number of names like tahmed bin romair areon the increase, imitating the rabs. The chorus to ban basant is becoming louder, to become non-indian. It is in this context that the posts by tahmed and temporal become significant, it is part of the formation of pak identity and should be incouraged. The music is banned now in the pak buses, another right step, that is how it is in taliban afghanistan.

What I get pi//ssed of is the views of the educated pakistanis that there is something wrong in it. A true islamic pakistan, chopping the heads is preferable to the sham that is today, it is amonster made by the committees. But the good part is the emergence of the jihadists to power and as of now military is the only one agaist them. I do look forward to an islamic coup by the military, music and TV banned, with stoning and head chopping as entertainments. This is far better than the make believes that hollywood is dishing out. Bring on the islamic pakistan, it is only the educated pakistanis who are confused, lucky that the majority knows what pakistan is about.

jay #118 you write ``I enjoy pakibashing``
No wonder your keepers are considering changing your medicine: it has been observed that you throw punches in the air, saying ``Take that you damn paki low caste hindu convert arab-wannabe``. In the cell to your left sits brother Ralph, screaming ``Teach these namak harams a lesson.``. Meanwhile poor arjun merely curls up in his cell to your right and moans about ``condomland``. You people are all nuts.

Ref Field Marshal turned Humanitarian #121

[If someone migrates to the USA from Pakistan, and then wants to hide the fact that he ever lived in Pakistan, why should that bother me?]

Weren`t you the one suggesting that one should wear a T-Shirt with the Pakistani flag on it post-9/11? Now you wouldn`t be bothered if somebody abandoned his Pakistani heritage?

[If anything, heritages actually divide people more than they unite them.]

So, Kashmiris can live contentedly in India despite their Kashmiri heritage? Wow! That`s a revelation!

[After all, if another 9/11 occurs, those Pakistanis who watch baseball everyday will be treated, by the majority Americans, like the, ``Abduls`` they so want to disassociates themselves from.]

Well, that`s because it is difficult to attempt to analyze an Abdul-looking character. Easier to classify them all as terrorists and deport them to their home country. Sort of what is happening now with folks from the MIddle East. By the way, a friend`s son arrived in the US for studies from Oman. Fear not, he is a Hindu from India whose father has been working in Oman and after just a few questions he was allowed into the country. But the Tamil (and Hindi) film actor Kamal Hasan (literally, Lotus-Faced) was assumed to be a terrorist because his name sounds Muslim and was barred entry into the US (of all the places, at the Toronto airport). He didn`t scream that he wouldn`t be caught dead with an Abdul (probably because he was sleeping with some Abdul`s wife or daughter anyway) but the fact remains that he was tarred with the same brush that you accuse the Americans will be tarring patriotic Pakistani-Americans with.

I am a soorya vanshi rajput, descendent of Lord Ram, (and his incarnation in this time), but I hardly think about it. It is not that I am/was ever unaware of my heritage - our family posses manuscripts as old as written during the time of Akbar which traces our history back to Brahma Sooraj Vanshi the Sun God (with detailed family tree, which also includes the names of women). A great deal of work has been translated into Urdu (from Parsian) by retired members of our family. Each generation has contributed some towards it. It was my ancestors, when they were hindus, who fought Ghauri, defeated him, wounded him, which eventually killed him. But, personally, I consider our real history only starts when my ancestors accepted Islam at the hands of sufi preachers who came along with Ghauri. In monetary or in terms of influence acceptance of Islam actually proved to be tumultuos during the period from Ghauri to Akbar, where my ancestors were repeatedly hunted down and persecuted for not accepting the hegemony of invaders even when they themselves had become Muslims. It was a great opportunity and motive to revert back to their older religion (if Islam was forced upon them) but they stick to their new one. It is only possible when one understands the message perfectly. Our family ruled the region between Channab and Jehlum in Northern Punjab before Ghauri and they kept a stronghold even after they accepted Islam - with this exceptional period of tumult. I take pride in the perseverance, love for freedom and self reliance of these earliest Muslims of my family. From Akbar to until the start of Sikha Shahi our family served in Moghal Army, as city administrators and educators of the region. The downfall of influence came after sikha shahi when they lost the political power and confined themselves to education only. Some of them fought sikh oppression alongside Syed Ahmad Shaheed, some were hanged during the war of independence of 1857 by British. When British invaded Punjab, my ancestors were offered ``Ghora Phirai`` in return for their favor if they sided with British against Sikhs - today I am proud that they refused.

[Ghora Phirai - It was the British way of rewarding renegade locals. When a local used to renege on his own people and help British win their wars against locals British used to reward him for his loyalty by allowing him to run his horse for the whole day around the region. The area covered was rewarded to that renegade as ``Jaagir``. Some of the well known Muslim Ghora Phiraoo Punjabi families are the Hayat (Khattar) family of Hasan Abdal, Shah`s of Jioona Shareef i.e. the ancestors of Begum Abida HUssain and Fakhar Imam and Co, and Tiwanas of lower central punjab - who became some of the most influential feudal lords in British India and then in Paksitan].

Please keep in mind that the Jagirdari system in Punjab is a ``gift` from British - prior to that, in Punjab, there was a tribal system which was like a commune and which is very different from Jagirdari/feudalism. So writes Hanif Ramay in his famous book Punjab ka Muqaddma (A case for Punjab). His contention is verified by our family accounts].

re: romair


{There is no law that says one must be proud of one`s heritage.}

...i see...

The Happy One # 111

I think you are being modest here. The names of INdian missile system do have different connotations as well. All the symbols used here did not just come out of the blue, they already have depth and meaning and they are deeply ingrained in the hindu psyche.

For example:

Prithvi - though it means ``earth`` does have a political background. If Indian government is so politically correct it could have been named as `Dharti Mar` or something. But as a matter of fact the word Prithvi have a deeper meaning of last resistance against the aggression from West. In contemporary times the Pakistan in hindu mind still represents a continuation of an aggression from West.

Trishul - Trident has a very deep religious significance. It represents the weapon of choce of Lord Shiva, the warrior, and one who scorns.

Dhansu - Bow. Is a weapon of choice of Arjun a warior in Lord Rams army in Mahabharat.

Agni - Fire . Is also a weapon of choice of Lord Shiva in the shape of balls of fire.

Nag - Cobra is the war time ornament of Lord Shiva.

Astra - Weapon- refers to Lord Shiva`s weapons in general.


So in this case the choice of names like Ghauri, Ghaznavi, and Abdali seem to be correct. Since these names are revered deeply by Muslims as they were savior for the indigenous people from the ignorance and darkness of hindu social and religious values - the oppression of caste system in the name of religion.

Like Prithvi, Tipu is also a symbol of the resistance against the invaders.

Hatf & Unza - Are the names of the two swords of Holy Prophet (pbuh).

Shaheen - Is the famous symbol by poet Iqbal who represents the Muslim youth, who yearn for freedom and an icon of self0-reliance and self-respect.

Zulfiqar - Is also the name of another sword of holy prophet (pbuh). It could not become the name of a weapon system because it also relates to Zulfiqar A. Bhutto, and no one wants to this political connotation.

I don`t think Pakistanis try to disassociate themselves from any of their heritages. Nor do I think they want to be looked at as Arabs. I think most have far too many day to day problems to worry about heritages.

At the same time, people should live in the present. Most of the population of Pakistan was born after partition. They are Pakistanis. That is their heritage. They seem themselves as Punjabis, Pathans, Baluchis, Sindhis, Kashmiris and Muhajirs (although that is an odd name for someone who was born in Pakistan and never really carried out any type of hijrat - their parents were muhajirs, but so were the parents of people who migrated from East Punjab).

If someone wants to trace back his ancestors to Iran, or Turkmanestan or Madina, what`s the big deal? Its his heritage (or a made up one) - why should anyone else be bothered? As long as he is not bothering or harming anyone else,

There is no law that says one must be proud of one`s heritage. One can be ashamed of it, also. And there is no law that states that one cannot use religion as one`s heritage. After all, a person is a combination of so many different things - culture, religion, environment, education, parentage etc.

My last name comes from a Hindu ancestory, as do most of the customs in my family. Should I be proud of it? Maybe. Should I be ashamed of it? That`s upto me. Is it even a Hindu heritage, or is it a Rajastani heritage? Should I wear it on my sleeve? No.

Live and let live. Let people trace their heritage back to whomever they want to trace it back to. If someone migrates to the USA from Pakistan, and then wants to hide the fact that he ever lived in Pakistan, why should that bother me? If someone refuses to acknowledge that fact that his great----great grandmother was a Hindu, what`s the big deal? Why should that bother anyone in India?

If anything, heritages actually divide people more than they unite them. Why should everyone be forced into watching baseball and eating hot dogs to be part of the USA? Why be part of a forced melting pot? What is wrong with being part of a mosaic, like in Canada - where one can go cheer for Pakistan against Canada in field hockey and still be considered a patriotic Canadian?

After all, if another 9/11 occurs, those Pakistanis who watch baseball everyday will be treated, by the majority Americans, like the, ``Abduls`` they so want to disassociates themselves from. They can scream to their hearts` delight that they drink Miller Lite, watch the Red Wings and wouldn`t be caught dead with an Abdul - no one will care. At least the Abduls know where they themselves stand. In the end, the anti-Abduls will come running to these same Abduls, when someone racistly beats up their kid in elementary school or their wife is not invited to the local tupperware party. All because of different heritages.

The only heritage one should try to protect is one based on human rights. Everything else is neither here nor there. Nothing to be proud of and nothing to be ashamed of.

Dost-miiter,

A person on chowk is identified by his posts, and posts only. It doesnt really matter to me what the person really is, tahmed could be a budhist monk in dharamasala, temporal could be posting from the hide outs in yemen. hamid could be the top aide to osama.

All of us have an identity on chowk, have a life and life style on chowk, and that is a public image for any one to love hate or both. We are the royals of the internet.

I have stated several times, I enjoy chowk, I enjoy pakibashing, I have no desire to change the world.

American Express

Now I understand what you have been saying. You think India and Pakistan are both India. Since your allegiance is with Pakistani military, you want Indians to give you rights of citizenship because you are a Pakistani, and Pakistan in your mind is India.

Loyalty to Pakistan, claims from India. That is the philosophy of Indians who are actually Pakistanis?

amit #95 I find your posts to be refreshing in this dull, angry india-pakistan oneupmanship beyond which so many chowk posters seem incapable of going. However, I do beg to differ with you (and dost-mittar #101 too) when you say that Indian muslims can be the liaison between the two countries: I think people like you and dost mittar would do as good a job as anyone else.

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