Moderate Muslims

re: sameer #180

...well said...btw, you are very lucky to be living in the west...i`d be really concerned for your safety if you were writing such things while living elsewhere :)....

Here is a definition of `moderate muslims` for all to consider.

Moderate muslims are those who interpret the Quran in a non-authoritarian manner.

There are 2 elements to this definition,

1. They interpret the Quran. Their actions and beliefs are derived from the Quran in some way. The Quran is not irrelevant to their lives.

2. They are non-authoritarian. They do not believe in imposing their interpretation on others.

The moderate muslims are not to be confused with `liberal` muslims who can be quite authoritarian sometimes.
A moderate muslim would not force a woman to wear hijab and would not snatch hijab from a woman`s head.

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Sameerjb- Very vague answer, please elaborate with SPECIFIC examples disproving ISlam as a Modern day religion

151 by harimau
Indeed. I don`t know if I`m more embarrassed for myself, or for the fact that that (SR`s) art imitates life so perfectly:)

Urstruly #159: Thanks for the correct, absolute and real translation of `am`r bil maroof wa nahi an`il munkir` as ``Commanding For Good & Preventing From Bad``. It does not change anything what I said in my previous post.
Aaria: Ignorance is not a bliss in geenral but in the specific case, the topic being discussed here, ignorance of Islamic teachings is a bliss. Ignorance of Islamic teachings do not lead to intolerance. The history of paindoos in our country is a clear example. They tolerated whoever brought whatever over centuries. Tolerance of paindoos and illiterate folks lead to the acceptance of so many religions in the world. I am all for education and secular humanistic values taught to kids but not through religion because of the flawed belief (as sac and hamidm said: it is in the book) in perfections or infallability of dogma. You learn nothing about China, India or Alexander the Great from the book. Why should we be obsessed with Jewish myths turning all their uncles, aunts, cousins to prophets? That is what most of the book is about.

The answers to the challenges posed in the modern world are not found in the book because they did not exist at the time book was compiled. The book deals moral values through Jewish myths on the basis of one local culture and does not have a clue about the complex basis of modern world order. Modern world order is not at all based on attaining a place in heaven in afterlife. That is why Muslims are so opposed to almost everybody and everything that concentrates on succeeding in modern world by following the current world order. You would flunk economics exams everywhere in the world if insisting to find answer from the book. Same goes for all other subjects. Then why waste time on studying that does not help in any scholarship.

Even if there might be few good moral lessons in the book, it is not worth the effort through multiple and controversial interpretations and mostly old stuff. I have background in chemistry. We do not keep on learning about Jaber Bin Hayan as father of chemistry. No reason to spend whole year learning about him and feeling pride everyday for his Islamic background. After one year, others will know more chemistry and we will know more about Islam and Jaber Bin Hayan.

There is nothing in the `book` that is even marginally superior than found in number of other sources. There is no best kept secret in the book that only `select few` are privy to learn. It is part of the history of early Islamic developments and it is a suggested reading book for those taking course in the birth and early developments of Islamic faith.

#177 by SR
Apparently the fruit (cake) falls not far from the tree.. Maybe you could do Saturday Night Live..:)

re: InYourFace

{I say this with firm conviction. Bus Yatra`s are not working. Kargils are happening. Modis are being born. To prevent that we need a Berlin Wall. }

...modi is our own fault...can`t blame anyone for that...

Re: Trillium #140 [``... I can only marvel at genetics. Your father and his sister must have been proud of their son SR when he graduated madrassah... ]

Yessir, and there was much halva and khajoors eaten at the solmn occasion of the graduation. But instead of being repentent at your audacity to not only refute the word of the Prophet and reverse the essence of his Miraj experince (just because a frizzy-haired Jew said so) but you also make a feeble attempt to make revisions in my geneological tree. And you call yourself a `moderate muslim`? Shame on you. A ``horrible hindu`` had to step in and admonish you for stepping out of line and suggesting incest up my familial ladder.

I shall let it pass, but if you make a habbit of altering other people`s family trees, one of those branches will fall on your head and expose that enormous vacuum inside your skull... :)


#151 by harimau

[``...Ref Trillium #140 ... You most definitely are in need of a sarcasm detector.

You owe SR an honest, abject apology. ...``]

One does wonder about people`s reading and comprehension skills, doesn`t one?

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun him.

Thanks for the intercession though. :)

...SR

The concept of dividing India along religious lines clearly failed in 1971 when the majority of Muslims from Pakistan left to create their separate homeland, viz. Bangladesh.

I guess that before following the European Union route, both India and Paksitan will have to be subdivided along ethnic lines and then may form a confederation of South Asian states.

#154 by Harpreet . Let me point out something here, there is no such thing as Muslim unity. If it existed, countries like Malaysia would not deny visas to Pakistanis or Arab countries like UAE would not give preference to Indian workers over Pakistani workers. Going a step further wat to talk of Muslim unity, there is nosuch thing as Arab unity. If this were so, there would be simply one Arab nation.

All the dictators ruling the various Muslim countries are concerned with is filling their own pockets.

Ref tahmad32 #39

[....I would be recovering from surgery at the time (to stitch back my quadriceps tendon which I ruptured from my patella due to a freak accident, in case anyone wants to know) ....]

I do hope you will recover quickly. Are you going to be in for some long period of physical therapy? I hope not for your sake.

[Interestingly enough, from personal experience in attending prayers in Pakistan and in the US, I can say that this lack of public noise ADDS, and does not in any way take away from, the dignity of a religious service. And at the same time it spares the ears of the neighbors.]

Agreed.

[The question then is: Why are religious services conducted without concern to the peace of the neighborhood in Pakistan (and India too, it seems, from what you write) while they are conducted in quiet peace in the US? The answer of course is POLICE AND CIVIL ADMINISTRATION. The US has proper civil administration where they enforce laws for the benefit of the general public, whereas in Pakistan (I dont know about India) the well being of the general public is of negligible importance to the police and it is the well being of the government in power that is ``supreme national interest``. ]

There is probably one more aspect to it: it is the adaptation of technology, in this case the loudspeaker, to reach a larger target audience created by the cities. In a small village, if the maulvi calls the Faithful to the evening prayer or if a temple bell is rung, it needs to travel only a small distance to reach the people of the village. But in a large city, what with all the background noise from traffic, etc., people hit upon the idea of using the loudspeaker. They probably mean no harm but they just don`t think through these things.

By the way, it has taken an opinion from the Indian Supreme Court, I am told, to ban loudspeakers after 11 pm. Thus a rock concert at a company I was employed at had to obtain special permission from the police to hold the concert from 8pm to 12 midnight. And everyone was anxious to ensure that the music stopped at midnight. I am also told that the air in Delhi is considerably cleaner after the Supreme Court banned the use of diesel trucks, buses, etc.

Yes, let us all cheer the Rule of Law!

agree with the hindus on this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/12/international/asia/12INDI.html?pagewanted=print&position=top

PAVAGADH, India, Dec. 6 — The Muslims of this village in Gujarat were certainly free to come home, Manoj Joshi said. They simply had to agree to certain conditions first.

No more misbehaving with or marrying Hindu women. No more illegal activities like betting.

In the last year or two, both communities agree, things had begun to change. The Hindu nationalists primarily blame Muslim interest in their women.

_ _ _``We treat them as brothers,`` Mr. Joshi said. ``And they are keeping an eye on our sisters.``

The village`s Muslims say only four or five of their men have married Hindu women.

Ref AzadMunna #116

[I AM Moderate/co like many I DON`T BELIEVE THAT I HAVE THE ONLY RITE OF PASSAGE .Certainly nonnmuslims before 600a.D,do. & many good nonmuslim after 600a.do. who did not get the opportunity to receive the message of god are equally deserving of rite of passage .THERE FORE THAT MAKES ME AS NOT EXCLUSIVE BUT ONE OF HUMANITY .ISLAM IS ONE CIVILIZING MESSAGE LIKE ALL PREVIOUS PROPHETS. ]

WOW!

Hydra, I love you!

Yours in awe,

Harimau

Sameer J-

So we stop educating our children and take them to parks instead of to Mosques, we quit telling them about history and God and let them see Islam the way you see it, as a backwards, violent religion. Great solution. Ignorance is Bliss right? Wonderful. But those ``moderates`` that you are refereing to.. wait those Jahil and Paindoos, who don`t know Islam, like you said they are illiterate and follow traditions passed down for centuries from their ancestors. Considering a lot of Pakistani customs come from polytheistic backgrounds, we let ignorance prevail and conquer all.. Thats the solution isn`t it? Why not instead teach tolerance. Why not instead remind Pakistanis about the real reason why Pakistan was formed... not for ISLAM but for the basic right of freedom of Religion. Why not do that? Because solutions like that might solve the problem. But like your very tactful solution states, Ignorance is Bliss..

Syphilis- DO me a favor go back and re-read the article and them type a response which I can understand. Just like you missed the point I was trying to make, I missed yours. You are correct, I may not be the best teacher and preacher of Islam, but I am a practicing Muslim who takes the time and effort to learn about it. If you read it again you might realize that the point wasn`t to talk about the differences between Moderate Muslims and Extremists but to ask those who consider themselves Muslims, where they stand on Islam? I mean we know how the extremists feel.. they let it be known to us, so maybe I was too harsh to ASSUME that there are some MUSLIMS out there who don`t consider themselves to be extremists but rather MODERATE. Yes I will still stick to the term moderate. And still after reading all the replies I am wondering where the hell they are??

Ras- You are correct. us ``MODERATE`` muslims don`t take offense to the term moderation. We are confident in our views and aren`t afraid to speak out. Well Stated.

Urstruly- Thanks for the insight, glad you enjoyed it!


Happy Friday!