Moderate Muslims

hamidm2 bhai,

Obviously you have made it crystal clear that you disagree
>>.........horse puckey!... this is the same old recycled nonsense that >>blames colonialism, neo-imperialism, zionism, hidooism and other >>imaginary stuff for everything that ails the bedouin and the bedouin >>wanna-be.............stand up and take some responsibility for our own >>failures instead of whining ............
But I agree with you that Muslims have to stand up and take responsibility for their actions but I think you failed to understand my point. All I said was that the Muslims are like people anywhere else who want a better life for themselves and their family. They, due to many factors, including meddling by the west, have been left behind economically. The resulting poverty and helplessness results in violent behavior which is not any different than the behavior one experiences in the poor and inner city areas of the US - This basically takes Islam out of the equation. Then I say the West should leave the Muslim countries alone...and why not without American assistance the corrupt royal family of Saudi Arabia and the Military government of Egypt wouldnot stand a chance. The military in Algeria will crumble and YES if the Algerians want to elect an Islamic government than let them...who are we to stop them. They will learn in time and a certain equilibrium will be reached. Peace will return to that region and then the poeple can prosper because peace is a prerequisite for economic growth. A prosperous people have too much to lose to engage in unsavory activities (obviously not talking about other problems like Worldcom and Enron)

Now you can say but the Quran says go and kill every non-believer that you encounter so therefore the fault is with the Quran. But similar passages exist in the Bible and the Torah and if some Christian or a Jew ends up killing a non-believer would you condemn the whole religion? The Quran, similar to the Bible and the Torah, is a complex book whose interpretations vary over time and people.

Be they ants in their pants
or the chewnty in their chuddy
Their dance is really really good
though song is kind of duddy
----------------------------------
It is always good to keep in touch, it keeps your head spinning
confusion is not what it is called, its call Islam & its winning.
____________________________________________________________
The new face of Islam

The phenomenon of educated, white, middle class English converts to Islam.
by Nick Compton

At first she tried to resist. She did not want this to happen. She was not that sort of person. After all, there were no gaps in her life, no spiritual ache, she did not need support or direction. But she kept reading and it kept making sense.

`I had absolutely no expectation or desire to end up where I am,` she says. `It was almost with trepidation that I kept turning the pages and the trepidation just increased. I kept thinking: ``OK, where`s the flaw? Where`s the bit that doesn`t make sense?`` But it never came. And then it was like: ``Oh no, I can see where this is leading. This is disastrous. I don`t want to be a Muslim!``

Caroline Bate is 30 years old, blonde, blue-eyed and pretty, with a soft Home Counties accent. She has a degree from Cambridge (she studied Russian and German before switching to management studies) and works for an investment bank in the City. She is Middle England`s dream daughter or daughter-in-law. And though she has yet to make her formal declaration of faith in Allah and the prophet Mohammed - a two-line pledge called the Shahada - she considers herself Muslim. She ticked the box on a form recently. It felt good, she says.

Caroline is not alone. Though data is hard to come by, several London mosques have been reporting an increase in the number of converts to Islam, especially since 11 September. Like Caroline, many of these converts are from solid middle-class backgrounds, have successful careers, enjoy active social lives and are fundamentally happy with their lot.

This is not a new trend, however. Matthew Wilkinson, a former head boy of Eton, became Tariq, when he converted to Islam in 1993. Jonathan Birt, son of Lord Birt, late of the BBC and now the government`s transport guru, converted in 1997. The son and daughter of Lord Justice Scott also converted and Joe Ahmed Dobson, the 26-year-old son of the former Health Secretary Frank Dobson, has recently and, somewhat reluctantly, emerged as the voice of new Muslim converts in Britain. But it is a trend that has been pushed along by recent events. So far it has gone largely unnoticed, as the press concentrates on some of the more colourful characters that 11 September has thrown up.

Since 11 September, the luridly painted poster boys of British Islam have been radical clerics such as Abu Hamza al-Masri, the steel-clawed, milky-eyed so-called `mad mullah` of Finsbury Park mosque. Here are Victorian villains, fiendish emissaries of some ancient and foreign evil, straight out of an Indiana Jones movie.

Their followers are blank-eyed drones like Richard Reid, packing his high-tops with high explosives. Or James McLintock, the `Tartan Taliban`. There are lost boys, dislocated and dysfunctional, petty thieves preyed on in South London prisons and young offenders` institutions by fakir Fagins who forge an untempered anger into a righteous ire and provide it with a target. (Three imams working in British prisons have been suspended since 11 September for making `inappropriate remarks` about the terrorist attacks.)

But that is a sideshow, a compelling melodrama played out beyond the fringes of Islamic culture in this country. And while it might be stretching a point - and answering caricature with caricature - to insist that a demure English rose is the exemplar of the modern British convert to Islam, Caroline Bate is certainly more representative than Richard Reid.

Talking to recent Muslim converts, it is striking how similar the descriptions of their embrace of Islam are. Most were introduced to Islam, and Islamic history and teaching, by friends. And, given that Islam is not generally a missionary faith, these were gentle introductions. For most, conversion was born of curiosity, an attempt to better understand the people around them.

Caroline first started reading about Islam last April. A school friend she has known since she was 11 was marrying a Tunisian, a Muslim. `My best friend was marrying into a different culture so I wanted to know more about it,` she explains. `I came at it from more of a cultural perspective than a religious one. But the literature that I picked up just stimulated me. And Islamic teaching made perfect, logical sense. You can approach it intellectually and there are no gaps, no great leaps of faith that you have to make.`

Roger (not his real name) is a doctor in his mid-thirties. About a year and a half ago, he started talking about Islam to Muslim colleagues at work. `All I had ever heard about Islam in the media was Hezbollah and guerrillas and all of that. And here were these really decent people whom I was beginning to get to know. So I started to ask a few questions and I was amazed at my own ignorance.` He became a Muslim a couple of months ago.

For these new converts, embracing Islam is usually a covert operation. They quietly read, talk, listen, learn. The hard part is coming out, declaring your newly acquired faith to friends and family, and, in some cases at least, facing up to fear, scepticism and even loathing.

Caroline insists that the coming-out process has not been too painful. `The reaction has been pretty much what I expected. I`ve had everything from ``Do you know how they treat women?`` to ``Wow, great timing!`` But your friends are your friends and I expect them to deal with it.`

Others have had a harder time. Eleanor Martin, now Asya Ali (or some other combination of these names, depending on the circumstance), was a 24-year-old TV actress when she met Mo Sesay. She had a regular role as WPC Georgie Cudworth in BBC`s Dangerfield during the mid-Nineties and Sesay, who later starred in Bhaji on the Beach, was also a Dangerfield regular. Sesay is a Muslim.

`Mo was such a kind man, just a good person. He wanted to know me as a person, there was nothing else going on. And I thought, well, here is this really decent guy and he is a Muslim. And the image I had of Islam was of men beating up women and going round in tanks killing people.

`The thing is we both had regular parts on the show, but they weren`t very big parts, so we had a lot of time to sit in the caravan and talk. He really opened my eyes.`

Eleanor finally converted in 1996. `I wasn`t sure I was going to until the last minute and then it just felt as if everything had fallen into place and there was no other option.`

At first she kept her conversion secret. `I was afraid of an adverse reaction from friends and family. I was really worried about what my father would say.` Her father was a devout Christian. A former radiotherapist, he had taken early retirement to go into the priesthood. But circumstances forced Eleanor`s hand. A few months after she converted she met a Muslim African-American actor, Luqman Ali, and they decided to get married. `I went home and said: ``I`ve got some news. I`m getting married and I`m a Muslim.`` My mum was great. My dad said: ``I think I`m going to get a drink now.``

`It took Dad time. He went to see his spiritual adviser, a nun, whose brother happened to be a convert to Islam, and that helped. And he`s great now, too. He`s just happy that I`m following a path to God.`

Roger, meanwhile, has yet to tell family or work colleagues of his conversion. `I worry it will affect my career prospects,` he admits. `I know first-hand how little people understand Islam. I know there is prejudice based on ignorance. A couple of years ago, if someone had told me they had converted, I would have thought they were odd. I don`t want people to think I am an oddity or a curiosity because I don`t think of myself like that.`

Most converts acknowledge that living in an ethnically diverse city has made conversion easier than it might have been elsewhere. Stefania Marchetti was born and raised in Milan but came to London to study in 1997. She converted to Islam from Catholicism in April last year. `It would have been far more difficult for me to convert in Italy,` she admits. `The Italian media is very anti-Islam and generally Italians think that Muslim men are all terrorists and all Muslim women are slaves.`

Certainly Karen Allen, a 28-year-old scheduler for Sky TV from Stoke Newington, has enjoyed a relatively smooth transition period. She converted to Islam last June and soon started wearing the traditional headscarf or hijab. `When I first started wearing the hijab to work, there were a few jibes about Afghanistan and stuff, but people are fine now. They say things like: ``That`s a nice one you`re wearing today.``

`I think it might be more difficult outside London, but here there are a lot weirder things to look at than me.`

What is especially striking about this stream of converts to Islam is that the majority seem to be women. Some suggest that twice as many women as men are turning to Islam.

Batool Al Toma, who heads the New Muslim Project at the Leicester-based Islamic Foundation, which offers advice and support to recent converts, suggests this might be exaggeration, but admits that female converts are in the majority. `A lot of people seem to think that women are more susceptible to Islam. I think it`s largely because a lot of people are obsessed with the idea of an educated, liberated British woman converting to Islam which they feel subjugates and represses them in some way. We just get a lot more attention I suppose and that sparks people`s interest.`







Asya Ali: ``I was afraid of an adverse reaction from friends and family``








The lure of Islam for women is surprising, given that the conversion process may be even more problematic for them than for men. There is the commonly held belief that Islam represses women and female converts often have to deal with recrimination from female friends who view their adoption of Islam as some sort of betrayal. The wearing of a headscarf or hijab (a sartorial option, it should be noted, not a requirement) also makes Muslim women more visible than their male counterparts.

Certainly, all the women I spoke to were quick to refute the idea that Islam imposes a women-know-thy-place ideology.

`The perception of how women are treated is completely incorrect,` insists Caroline. `Women have a fantastic position in Islamic society.`

Indeed, many women converts talk about the adoption of the Islamic dress code as a liberation. They see it not as a denial of sex and sexuality but rather as an acknowledgement that these are treasures to be shared with a loved one and them alone. They are not hidden but rather freed from objectification.

Asya insists that the trick is to turn preconceptions on their head. She wears a scarf to show she is a Muslim and a smile to prove she is happy being one.

One problem for converts is that they are caught between two cultures. `Young Muslims are very accepting,` says Caroline. `They are really happy that you have chosen to become Muslim. The older generation are not so accepting. For them, Islam is part of their cultural background, it`s about the country they came from and it`s what binds their communities together.`

One step towards greater acceptance came last October when Reedah Nijabat opened ArRum, an Islamic restaurant/members` bar/ cultural centre/social club in Clerkenwell. Nijabat, a 31-year-old former barrister and management consultant from Walthamstow, originally conceived ArRum as a meeting place and networking venue for professional first- and second-generation London Muslims. But it has also become a focal point for many of London`s Muslim converts.

It is easy to see why. On any work evening, a mixed bag of middle-aged Pakistani men, young couples (some Muslim, some curious non-Muslim), kids and white British converts chat and tuck into halal `fusion` food. While the club promotes Islamic culture, the vibe is a Hempel temple of inner calm. Sufi wailing calms the nerves, while the bar specialises in healthy juices.

For the new converts I spoke to, ArRum is a place to meet other Muslims and somewhere to bring non-Muslim friends and introduce them to Islam in a way that doesn`t scare them.

ArRum accents Islam`s USP among the major faiths: its openness and lack of hierarchy. And Nijabat has realised that if there is an endemic suspicion of stuffy organised religion among the British (and increasingly, one suspects, second-generation British Muslims) there is great interest in `spirituality`, whatever that might mean.

`I think that the problem has not been with the substance of the major faiths, whatever they are, but a marketing defect,` argues Nijabat. `Everything we do here is about remembrance of God and Islam, but you can get that across in a cool way. I`m not saying anything that isn`t in the Koran, but you have to talk to people on their level.

`I`m beginning to see that there is a huge misunderstanding and a bridge that needs to be crossed between ethnic communities, host communities and spiritual communities, and I think we are making a contribution to that. You can get so hung up on the divisions and how different we are, but it is the same God for all of us. And we still feel that loss whether it is an American life or a Palestinian life. A lot of people are going through a period of soul-searching and that can only be a good thing.`

For many, that soul-searching has led them to Islam, not the Islam of the suicide bombers but mainstream Islam. And, as Joe Ahmed Dobson points out, ArRum and its new converts do not represent some kind of liberal IslamLite, a media-friendly dilution of the real thing. Dobson and the other new converts are orthodox, in the truest sense, and proud.

They are also part of a project that may help all parties see Islam in new ways. As Nijabat admits: `You can end up being quite defensive about it. And you can either get hung up about it or be proactive. Opening ArRum has helped me recognise that I can be British and Pakistani and a Muslim and a woman. And I`m not going to be a victim in any of this.`


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London Evening Standard, March 15, 2002

ralph,

``I really hope people will stop saying that there is no compulsion in Islam. It is worse than saying that the earth is flat``

.... but it is true - the koran does say: ``There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.`` (2.256)

.... but it also says: ``O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.`` (66.9)

......... it is confusing..... almost as confusing as the silly mumblings of a man in a funny hat who once had to issue a decree to ``officially`` recognize central american indians as human beings ..........before that the conquistadors were baptizing babies and bashing their brains out to save them ..........this same funny divine man sent thousands of heretics to the gallows and sided with the nazis against god`s chosen people ............ the problem, as i see it, is that he reports to the same god who sent down gabriel with his garbled message .......... maybe we should all start worshiping the elephant nosed god - he seems to have a clean record ............

.......... as far as i am concerned, the muslims might be leading this pack of lunatics today, but the southern baptists are not far behind and the catholics are still recovering from their bout with lunacy .........the sad part is that muslims are still in denial whereas some of the others have admitted that they were sick ........there can be no cure without this admission .........

Meet a peace loving, moderate, there-is-no-compulsion-in-Islam Muslim

``I am a peace-loving person, and just want to preach Islam``

``Maulana`` Masood Azhar, Jaish-e-Mohammad leader just freed by Pakistan which has been ``cracking down`` on terrorists.

Other moderate, peace loving, there-is-no-compulsion-in-Islam Muslims freed by the Pakistani government -

``Hafiz`` Mohammad Saeed, founder of Lashkar-e-Taiba ``banned`` by moderate, peace-loving, there-is-no-compulsion-in-Islam Musharraf because he was ``changing course``. Now Hafiz heads a new moderate, peace-loving, there-is-no-compulsion-in Islam group, Jamaat al-Dawat.

``Maulana`` Azam Tariq, leader of the moderate, peace-loving, there-is-no-compulsion-in-Islam group, Sipah Sahaba. ``Maulana`` Tariq is now one of Pakistan`s law-makers in Pakistan`s legislature.

yusufkhan#218

It is true that Catholicism has a centralized authority which can be behind times. This central authority has kept Christians ignorant and has engaged in unsavory activities. However, absence of centralized authority has not been an advantage to Islam. It has left people free to kill others in the name of religion. Nobody can tell them that this killing is not Islamic.

yusuf mian,

.... okay i will admit that you did not explicitly mention ababeel and elephants, but the your diatribe against the evil west is typical of the delusional moderate muslim who is always looking for excuses ..........

......if this is not fundamentalist crap, what is it? ..........``then all the fascists say oh Islam has not had a reformation; well it has not been given a chance. The continued meddling in our affairs and governments, the support to our dictators (Egypt, Pakistan, Algeria) and the undermining of our democracies (Iran, Algeria, Palestine) has suppressed Muslim thought. Forced to conform to the theory of Nation states (after the fall of the Ottoman Empire) but never considered a nation. The West posseses some of the world`s deadliest weapons ``

.........horse puckey!... this is the same old recycled nonsense that blames colonialism, neo-imperialism, zionism, hidooism and other imaginary stuff for everything that ails the bedouin and the bedouin wanna-be.............stand up and take some responsibility for our own failures instead of whining ............

I really hope people will stop saying that there is no compulsion in Islam. It is worse than saying that the earth is flat. It requires a certain gall to say that with a straight face.

hamidm2....you said:
>>............ whiners and shizophenics like romair and yusufkhan who still >>believe that the twin towers were brought down by ababeel, are to >>lame for the misery of the miserable ummah........... these folks, with >>their silly theories about zionists under the bed and hindoos in the >>closet, refuse to admit that the fault might be in themselves and not >>in the stars that they are underlings .......

You will be hard pressed to find any reference to the above in my mail. Please start using the space between your ears before using the space in Chowk!
The rest of your mail is pure diatribe full of racist overtones - not worth responding.

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scout #219
At last we agree on one thing! Its already working.

If by animals `wandering in` you mean jihadis, well, those are freedom fighters not animals.

#214 by Ralph

I think you are wasting your time with these so called ``moderate`` muslims. ( They don`t even like the term ``moderate`` ). These guys have no interest in the radical reformation that is required in Muslim societies today. They still hide behind the book and sing the same old tunes ``Islam is under attack``. They don`t see no evil among themselves - they don`t see the ever-widening cobwebs of ignorance and strait-jacketed thinking over centuries that has darkened the face of Islam beyond recognition.

They will keep hiding in their little book and take pot shots at people who could actually make a difference. That`s why I call them closet-jihadis.

firld marshall romair, who once believed that musharraf was the mahdi and that imran khan is going to beat jesus christ to the punch, now tells us that most muslims act like idiots because of some great conspiracy against god .........as usual he trots out a relic like eric margolis to prove his crazy theories ..........next thing you know, he will be quoting certifiable cuckoos like naom chomsky and dr israr ............

.......... and what does eric have to say about why most of the muslim world cannot pick up the garbage or educate their kids or provide indoor plumbing for the unwashed masses ?...... who is holding them back from treating their women better than their camels?......... who is preventing them from writing a book and reading it instead of reading ``the book`` over and over again? ............. conspiracy?

............ whiners and shizophenics like romair and yusufkhan who still believe that the twin towers were brought down by ababeel, are to blame for the misery of the miserable ummah........... these folks, with their silly theories about zionists under the bed and hindoos in the closet, refuse to admit that the fault might be in themselves and not in the stars that they are underlings .......

re: romair

...you are right...eric margolis and brian cloughley are the authoritative voices on all these topics...just as trent lott is for racial integration...

Who are the moderate Muslims?

I daresay 99% of the Muslims of India and at least 90% of the Muslims of Pakistan (I am talking about folks living in those countries, not the arm-chair pundits who are living in the comfort provided by The Great Satans) are moderate.

They spend their time worrying about how to provide the next meal for their families, how to find husbands for their daughters, how to ensure their children get an education, etc. The same thing that is the concern of people worldwide.

It is in this context that hamidm2`s little quiz is disturbing. Because, when you look at the results of the quiz as administered to the same population that I described as moderate, you are going to find that now 99.999999% (would that meet the Six Sigma criterion?) of the Muslims are extremists.

By the same token, wouldn`t a Southern Baptist be a fundamentalist? Doesn`t the average Joe Sixpack from Kentucky believe that unless we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour, our souls are condemned to everlasting Hell?

So, what differentiates Joe Sixpack from the fundamentalists Muslims?

Ralph..you said
>>Any body who suggests the need for any change becomes a mortal >>threat, a traitor to Islam. That is why Muslims deal with dissent so >>violently and zealously. There is no provision for change. When things >>fall apart, blame and hatred are placed on others. Calls to Jihad are >>the next step. True introspection is not possible because that will >>reveal that Islam isn`t the perfect religion and Quran isn`t the perfect >>book Muslims have been taught to believe it is.

There is a provision for change and its a well know concept called `Ijtehad`. Unlike the catholic faith there is no central clergy in Islam; there are many sects and any change in interpretation does not have to be followed by all. Like in the Bible, anti Jewish verses have been used to kill Jews over the last century. There are similar passages in the Quran too (although there is no comparison between the Christian treatment of Jews and the Muslim treatment of Jews in history...that is a different subject). The meanings in these books, as we all know, are not meant in black and white and normally have many shades of grey open to interpretation, which is why there are thousands of volumes written about the Quran providing a context to each verse and an explaination. If you had the interest you would have noticed that most of these scholars dont agree amongst themselves.

You also said:
>>Moderation will come only when religion becomes less strong in >>people`s lives, not if Muslim continue to try to become `better` >>muslims. However, all we see are the calls to return to `true` `pristine` >>Islam, which may be a heaven to Muslims but is nothing more than >>brutal barbarianism to non Muslims.

Again I disagree. Generally the better the standard of living in a society the less the participation of the populace in religion and vice versa. This is why Christianity is practiced with a lot of vigour in the Central and South America and sometimes taken to the extreme by people crucifying themselves in public. Now, you are trying to tell me that the same people would allow dissent -I think not, infact their reaction will not be that different to the zealots in the Muslim world....how many Gay or female clergy do you see there? Moderation comes with economic well being which is why South Africa is relatively moderate compared to Central Africa, neither have anything to do with Islam.

Now you do have a valid point that dissent in predominantly Muslim countries is violently dealt with but I would attribute that to the downtrodden socio-economic conditions in those countries. when people have nothing to lose their reaction is violent. The violence in such cases is not only directed towards non-Muslims but also against Muslims of different sects. Thousands of poeple are killed every year in Pakistan due to fighting between Shia and Sunni`s. You can see this in the urban areas of the US, tell me if violence in the South side of Chicago or South Central LA is any different - while we have Sunni and Shia Muslims living side by side peacefully in Detroit. Similarly, Arabs and Jews live peacefully in Europe and the US but that is not the case in the Gaza Stip.

So my dear friend, is Islam practiced differently in Europe and the US? No that is not the case - Infact Islam has got nothing to do with the present conflict. There are Muslims who drink and there are some that pray five times a day. There is no compulsion in Islam!

sadna #212,

yeah i agree about the wall thing. last thing i need is some indian sicko telling me all of his problems and uprisings are because of pakistan.

oh and this wall should be really solid and deeply grounded with no gates....i don`t want any poor pakistani animals accidentally wandering off into hostile territory.