Husain Haqqani at UC Berkeley

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#48 by sadna

[If you go to a neutral person who is not backward and doesnot know anything about Pakistani history, what will be his answer, obviously let the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan decide the Kashmir and India policy not the military-mullah complex}


absloutly right so now we both agree on one point which is unbiased and nuteral from both sides tht

Pakistani Elected PM should decide Kashmir policy and Parliment should complete the term and...

Kashmiri ppl have right to decide their future.

[And he will say stop trying to sabotage the elected government in J&K]

again very true! i am not sure about Paksitani army`s capibility on this, if they are that much capable then, India has to do a lot of work, after all they more then 500,000 army in JK....second the same advice should be given to BJP govt, who seems to be blaming Mufti Saeed and Congress Govt for recent attacks....and Yashwant Sinha was of he opinion that he has every right to criticise Kasmiri Govt of Mufti on these attacks, but when asked about the performance of BJPs own Govt in Gujrat , then blamed Paksitan for riots.

47 by mohar11#

{And then - hold a referendum in POK and see what those Kashmiris ( whatever is left of them ) want. Also the Balochis and Sindhis are not too happy the Punjabi Army treats them!! Get a self-determination going there too.}

i think if its goes with UN resoloution then refrendum for whole Kashmir including POK, who knows, may be they choose INDIA.

{Also the Balochis and Sindhis are not too happy the Punjabi Army treats them!! Get a self-determination going there too.}

Punjabi army badly treated Bengali people and they are not with Paksitan now! regarding Sindhi, Balochi...no such movement of self determination is on so.....i dont know what you are talking.........and are you admiting that as Sindhi and Balochi are not happy wiht army, Kashmiri are also not happy with Indian army.

[You have got a lot of ``self-determination`` jobs to do man. Indian Kashmir is least of your problems.]

you are right, kashmir is only a problem for Paksitan army and not of general pakistani public...but by looking all this storm of hate messages it seem small, backward and full of clowns country Pakistan is really causing a pian in the ass for such a big and regional superpower India.....you people seem more obssesed to Paksitan then Pakistani to Kashmir.

nawaid #46
``obviously `` why fighting, let the Kashmiri people to decide``.

If you go to a neutral person who is not backward and doesnot know anything about Pakistani history, what will be his answer, obviously let the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan decide the Kashmir and India policy not the military-mullah complex.

He will also say, let the elected Parliament and government of Pakistan complete one full term without being dismissed.

And he will say stop trying to sabotage the elected government in J&K.

But for this you need a neutral person not someone who claims Pakistan is a frontline ally.

#46 by nawaid
//...Untill and unless we pakistani beleive that Kashmiris dont want to come with Pakistan, weather backward clowns or not we all going to continue supporting their right of self determination...//

First try to get the right to ``self-determination`` for yourself - Mushy`s ``guided democracy`` is big load of c**p heaped on you guys. First clean that mess.

And then - hold a referendum in POK and see what those Kashmiris ( whatever is left of them ) want. Also the Balochis and Sindhis are not too happy the Punjabi Army treats them!! Get a self-determination going there too.

And what about that piece of Kashmir you gave out China? Go ask the chinese for ``self-determination`` for their part of Kashmir and see what happens!

You have got a lot of ``self-determination`` jobs to do man. Indian Kashmir is least of your problems.

wow! all these messages from Indian fellows are great:

by all this i get the idea tht Kashmir is never ending story for both countries...obviously there are factor both sides who want this issue to b alive for their personal intrests................India will not agree for refrendum and Pakistan will not stop infiltration even on US pressure, in recent month attacks on temple and civilians increased and now US denying Paksitan involvement in those events......One option of war and recapture Pakistani side of Kashmir already lost by Indian Govt...may b any Indian bro can explain to me what was Mr Vajpayee`s strategy by first threating Pakistan for war and then after realising that Pakistan is not going to be threat like that, withdrawing of troops. Its like they dont know Pakistan Army? or may be Govt couldnt handle the US pressure. Every second day Mr Advani, Berjesh Mehra and others keep crying on Pakistan interference and govt of Mufti Saeed. Mr Advani weekly issue a threat to Pakistan, i am not sure now how many Indians take those threats serioulsy as Pakistanis already dont like Advani & Company, so who give a damn what old man is saying weekly.

Regarding Pakistanis to listen Husain Haqqani, it dosent matter how much telented he is, no one take him seriously because of his past role in NS and BB govt, he played a key role in all Paksitan`s proprganda (realted to Kashmir) serving as advisor for information for both PMs and mostly know as `` LOTA`` for switiching sides.......and who knows, if he joined Govt now, his all intelecualism disappears in a minute. If you just look it the replies to this article, out of 45 not even 20% replies from Paksitanies, as i said ,not many ppl think of Haqani as genuine person.

Regarding backwardness of Pakistanis, no doubt in that.....but when it comes to Pakistan, its also not in your gene to except any argument from any Pakistani, and same goes with a normal pakistani. If you go to a netural person who is not backward and dont know anything about Kashmir history and you tell him about dispute, what will be his answer, obviously `` why fighting, let the Kashmiri people to decide``.

So with all you open and broad mindness you are not going to accept the right of kasmiri people to decide, although i dont think, Kashmiri people are stupid enough to choose mess like Paksitan. On the other side if Kashmiri really want to go with Paksitan, then this thing will never end. Any way, Pakistani Govt choose the path of infiltration to obtain Kashmir not realising damage to its economy and world image.....and Indian Govt choose the path to protect Kashmir by spending million of dollars and lost of valuable human lives.

Untill and unless we pakistani beleive that Kashmiris dont want to come with Pakistan, weather backward clowns or not we all going to continue supporting their right of self determination. Some of us choose the way of Jihad and some just keep posting messages coz how much intelectual i am, i dont understand the theory that Kashmiri cant decide their future coz they might choose Pakistan.

#44 hari

You are completely missing the point! No one except muslims have any problems in the world.!

More seriously, here we have people lecturing us on Kashmir, and when I point out that my mothers entire extended family has been ``cleansed`` from the Kashmir valley, they just keep up their nonsensical prattle. My extended family, being non-muslim, does not exist. They may have lived in J&K for god knows how many years, but these clowns will simply ignore the whole issue. Why? I think the answer is obvious.

We are dealing here with a backward-looking culture of grievance. A culture in which the long-ago age of ``islamic supremacy`` is to be worshipped and recalled, especially in its military aspects. Nothing else matters.

Certainly, there are also indians who are also trapped in the past. But the depth and extent of the Pakistani delusion is truly remarkable.

What can be done? Not much. Just as the marxist world view could only be contained and defeated over a long time, the islamic supremacist world view will have to be dealt with the same way. Firm security, an open society and a forward looking orientation is the only long-term answer to these folks. In the short term, of course, they will continue to kill and maim a lot of us folks.

#34 by aqazi

the problem with Pakistan`s claim to Kashmir or for that matter Islamic claim to Palestine, chechnia, indonesia is this:

the islamists want to convert all these places as ``islamic countries`` at the expense of NON-MUSLIM NATIVES.

It never occurs to the islamists that there are Kashmiri buddhists, kashmiri hindus, kashmiri sikhs. A kashmiri non-muslim may not want to live as a ``dhimmi`` under an islamic constitution. What if a kashmiri hindu
wants his ``own`` self-determinaiton to have the valley carved into a
``hindu`` land. If a kashmiri non-muslim uses this arguement, then all the
islamists immediately talk about ``islamic tolerance`` or that Kashmiri
hindus can live peacefully in Islamic kashmir. Bull Sh$t.
kashmiri hindus or for that matter kashmiri non-muslims can only live as
2nd class citizens. For all those who say, it won`t happen, look at
Pakistan, Bangladesh. These countries started as ``people`s republic`` at the time of independence, then slowly converted into ``islamic republics``, which means, a Pakistani non-muslim cannot aspire to become that country`s prime minister, president.

For all who say, that Abdul kalam is a dummy president, then my answer is please have a ``token/dummy`` non-muslim as Pakistan`s president?
Is it possible?

Finally the western world have understood the islamic thinking. that is why Turkey is not getting admitted to EC.

Islamists are self-centered. They talk about Kashmiri, chechnia, bosnia self determination; have you ever heard Musharraf or any islamic despot or leader talk about ``tibetian, taiwanese`` self-determination, or southern sudanese christian, southern nigerian christian, southern algerian christian self-determination aspiration? the answer is a BIG NOOO>>>>

president Bush went to the DC mosque to give greetings to muslims after
ramadan! Has the Saudi King, Musharraf visited hindu temples to greet
hindus or for that matter buddhists, christians for their diwalis, christmas,
buddha jayanthi. the answer is NOO>>>>

This is a response to Humsab from another board. It is a feedback about an article that was published in the last week TFT regarding role of religious parties in Pakistani politics. Rest must ignore it, if they can.
Humsab: Ishtiaq Ahmed is a specialist in the area of `role of Islamic parties in the creation and later in the politics of Pakistan. He is of the same caliber like Ayesha Jalal, progressive historian Sheikh Mubarak Ali and lesser known Yunus Samad. As an academician abroad (University of Stockholm, Sweden), he has the liberty to speak his opinion more clearly than living in Pakistan.
Jinnah and Nehru were politicians than freedom fighters. In addition to leading their parties to independence from colonialism, they were shrewd politicians like modern western politicians who believe in the rule of law, do not involve in corruption but winning is the most important thing. For Jinnah, without using TNT meant losing the political game for his party, Muslim League. There was no way of winning in the apolitical Punjab and Sindh without charging up the atmosphere using religious sensitivities.
They tried Muslim identity card without Islam during late thirties and early forties but were defeated badly by the local alliances of feudal, tribal, businessmen and ethno-nationalists. Losing Punjab and Sindh in 1946 election meant Pakistan based in Dhaka or former East Pakistan only.
Nobody exactly know what Jinnah compromised with powerful Sir Sikander Hayat, off the record during Jinnah-Sikander accord but untimely death of Sir Sikander Hayat Khan, left Jinnah-Sikander accord on the record only.
Unionist in the hand of weak Khizar Hayat Tiwana, separate electorate for Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs were not sufficient to win over apolitical Muslim vote in Panjab. Muslim voters have to be brought out to vote and Muslim league did not exist outside cities. Most of the population, more so than today lived in villages and only local leaders could influence them. The local, turncoats from Unionists, leader could not make a case to public just like recently turncoats could not make a case for Musharraf. It was difficult because these leaders had very friendly (brotherly) relationship with local Sikh and Hindus on personal level and asking Muslims to vote for expelling them soon. In this situation, Muslim League had to rely on pirs, gaddi nasheens, mutwallis and local mullahs who were either not as cosy with non-Muslims or saw it as religious duty above personal interests.
The religious element helped Muslim Laeague through charging up the atmosphere on religious grounds whose consequences were terrible. Perhaps Jinnah knew the consequences but the other option for him was losing Punjab. Prior to election, Jinnah was resisting Islamic group with Punjab Muslim league, leftover from Pakistan National Movement (PNM) headed by Ch. Rehmat Ali. This group once had Allama Iqbal among its supporters. They wanted politically Islamic state after independence whereas Jinnah wanted secular Islamic. Had Jinnah accepted PNM stand during thirties, ML might not have needed pirs and gaddi nasheens to win and with both Iqbal and Ch. Rehmat Ali gone in 1947, he could have steered Pakistan to secularism. But once pandora box of pirs, mullahs and gaddi nasheens was open, they could not be put back in place.
Anyway, in 1946 elections, voter turn out was still lower for Muslims than Hindus and Sikhs but ML won most of the Muslim seats. Unfortunately this being the end, it was the beginging.
The Unionists with only ten seats, like PPP forward block, were able to muster support from Congress and Akali Party and formed Panjab government with ML in opposition. Khizar Hayat Tiwana got the vote of confidence from Panjab Assembly. This was very dangerous scenario for Muslim League. Independence was around the corner and their crown jewel, Panjab was in the hands of opponents. In January 1947, ML announced agitation against Tiwana government to bring him down as quickly as possible. Mere call for strike or demonstrations would not do it because democratically Tiwana enjoyed majority support in the assembly. The assembly had to be dismissed according to ML plans and that required more serious law and order situaltion. Knowing extreme unhappiness of Sikhs being left out of power game, inciting Muslim-Sikh clashed was the best solution. As usual the consequence were worse than original plan of using the pretext of communalism to bring down Tiwana government. The Muslim League thought that Tiwana will be held responsible for not being able to control the situation but Tiwana realizing the ML game plan and his personal ego, resigned unilaterally without consulting even his cabinet and coalition partners. The Muslim League succeeded but could not pass on the blame to Tiwana and left alone to take the blame.
In this situation, the support of ML went down in Panjab in general but increased in religiously charged segment becaue now ML justifies its actions as Islamic duty. From now on Muslim league had to always rely on pirs, gaddi nasheens, mutwallis, mullahs and feudal to win in Panjab all the way to last rigged elections of October 10, 2002. The word Muslim League is roughly alien to Panjabis.
The day Pakistan was created, Panjab gave a deserted look. Few hundred people in Lahore and Rawalpindi and numbering less than hundred i other cities came out with candle light and flag waving celebrations of independence on August 14, 1947. The biggest event of the century turned out to be a non-event, not because any yearning for united India but for apolitical folks to go through all this because of Sherwani-clad masters sitting in Lahore, Delhi or Bombay taking decisions to win at all cost, at their expense.
Humsab, you might do a google search for Ishtiaq Ahmed and read more of his writings. Sorry for the delay.

qusman1 #37
India is a multi-religious country. Just because whiny Pakistanis like you keep insisting (for lack of anything better to do, apparently), even long after you got your nation that `obstinate` Indians should believe in TNT, doesnot mean I will tell my Muslim neighbours that we cannot live together in one country because Pakistanis hate Hindus.

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#37 qusman1

I have no interest in taking a person like you seriously. Any guy who believes that a 1000 years ago a new nation was created in India (the nation concept was invented in Europe between 1400-1600!) suffers from complete and total historical illiteracy. I would advise you to read the muslim historians of the invading armies to understand the reality of what happened in North India a thousand years ago. You may get a little surprise there....

The rest of your message is an attempt to somehow to ``equalize`` india and pakistan. It consists of drivel about indians being hated here and there. Who cares about silly stuff like that? Which large and relatively powerful country is not disliked/resented by its neighbors?

The day indian terrorists kill a 1000 pakistanis in Pakistan, I will agree that the two countries are ``equivalent``. The day I see middle-class indians support the use of suicide bombers to injure a neighboring country is the day I will agree that the two are the same. Needless to say that will never happen. Till then you can live in your phantasy world....

re: aqazi

{I know enough Indians to know that deep down inside they all know how wrong it is for India to occupy Kashmir.}

...i know enough pakistanis to know that deep down inside they all know how wrong it is to send terrorists to other countries to steal land that does not belong to pakistan...

qusman1 #37
India is a multi-religious country. Just because whiny Pakistanis like you keep insisting (for lack of anything better to do, apparently), even long after you got your nation that `obstinate` Indians should believe in TNT, doesnot mean I will tell my Muslim neighbours that we cannot live together in one country because Pakistanis hate Hindus.

More on Kashmir etc.

Mes chers pmishra and company: What I was trying to explain was not so hard: LeT and JeM APPARENTLY do a lot of bad things in Kashmir. The Indian army also APPARENTLY does atrocious things in Kashmir. To my knowledge, conflicting propaganda and the conditions in Kashmir have not allowed much objective truth to come out.

==>You are all too well conditioned to see the `phoren hand` everywhere, but how about allowing yourself some more space and seeing a `bharatya hand` as well?

If you do the latter, Pakis (or at least some of us) will take you more seriously. Otherwise, just as you have built-in mechanisms to discount the `Others` as lying criminals, so do we `Mlecchas` vis-a-vis you. Goes back a long way! After all the two nation theory insists Pakistan really came about 1000 years ago, no? And Bangladeshis hate you just as much!

Also, just as not all hindus who take their faith seriously are violent rioteers, not all madrassah students are going to bite you. So my sympathies if you are disturbed by images of several million madrassah students coming to get you. Again, I can`t prove this but perhaps only 10-15% of madrassahs in Pakistan would be the kind you won`t like if you met them. Still enough to breed a lot of deranged young men though.

So anyway, please go on posting, venting it out as much as you please. But do realize that you will gain quite a bit by being less gullible and obstinate.

aqazi #34
I wasn`t championing the cause of peace, I was answering your lament about Indians on chowk. I have no interest in peace with someone who calls me a BJP fundo and baniya because I am Hindu.