Riffat Jahan December 8, 2003
#34 Posted by MichaelM on December 17, 2003 7:41:54 am
Jay said:
``I am waiting for ylh to post that ahmadias are one of the most wealthy, they are in all sorts of high paying jobs and accordingly there is nothing to complain about what is happening to ahmadias. Remeber of course that pakistanis never mention these aspects on chowk, well as tahmed claims they are of course very critical of their country. ``
That`s completely wrong. See the article of YLH:
Rescinding the ’Concordat’
http://chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002620&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1
No more explanations to give.
#6 said:
``Excellent. Muslims must look only to Holy Quran. All else is second rate, a copy, untrue. Those who try to separate Muslims from the prophets language of Arabic (#2, #5) are foreign agents to the Nation of Islam. Only Arabic can express the beautiful concepts of Islam. All of us know that Allah is not the same as God. Allah has not attributes, God has a son. You know the details. ``
So what about the Hadiths? Is it second rate? The main problem in Islam is not in the Quran but in the interpretation about what is in it. No strict rules are really edicted there, just a guidance (but even here some people will not be agree).
The idea that arabic is a pure beautiful language can compete with the ancient idea that Hebrew is the natural language of all humans (yes peoples believed it). But it`s true that Islam, and the Quran cannnot be separated from the arabic culture because they are coming, at least in `our` time, from that part of the world.
Allah is the same as `God` if you have a little respect of the other religions. Or maybe you think that two worlds coexists with two divinities (and so you`re not a muslim).
If you read the Bible, for example, you will find in the first pages of Genesis, that `Jehovah`` (and not `God`) created the universe, and that this Divinity is not one, unique.
`God``s (who can`t be called `He` because this divinity doesn`t have attribute and cannot be a male) unicity came after in the texts. This suppose an evolution in the understandment of religion, and this paradox doesn`t prove that the text is right or wrong. Religion is strictly in the domain of `belief` and have nothing to do with `rationality`. That`s where is the problem.
So if such an evolution can happen why not in the thinking that the attributes disappeared? It`s like entering a dark room. After sometimes you see some forms and after you can see all the objects. It`s not the objects but your perception which changed.
#25:
``Moreover, it is also universally accepted that this system existed in its ideal form for at least thirty years after the death of the Prophet. However, two confusions have been created in this regard that need to be redressed here. The first consists of the objection that if Islam is indeed the God-given system of life, and if it is really in harmony with human nature, why is it that it lasted only for a period of thirty years?``
Because it`s not universally accepted. If it was, why the majority of the population on earth don`t believed in the prophet of Islam?
It`s like forgetting the opinion of some (I will not even say the majority) of Shiias about the first rulers. This Golden age is basically symbolic, even if the system was not `corrupted` at that time.
``The only salvation for an Islamic nation is in Quran. Anything else will lead Pakistan to Jahaliya``
So the salvation of Islam is in Islam. But is Pakistan an Islamic nation?
Rational problems can`t be solve only in that way. But right, they can be an inspiration. This dichotomy ``good/bad`` can`t be made using Islam-not Islam.
Personally, I think that the solution can only come through secularism, like Jinnah said, and not by using old concepts and values that are acceptable in a specific period of time in History but can`t be repeated other and other again.
Even if nothing is new under the sun, we have to learn from the past and change our mind if it`s necessary to do so, even if our elder said that is against religion, culture or anything having a role in our society... (like the destruction of the patriarchal mentality which thinks to be strong enough to base every single thing on sexuality and on a fictive superiority of the Man on the Woman),
but how?
``I am waiting for ylh to post that ahmadias are one of the most wealthy, they are in all sorts of high paying jobs and accordingly there is nothing to complain about what is happening to ahmadias. Remeber of course that pakistanis never mention these aspects on chowk, well as tahmed claims they are of course very critical of their country. ``
That`s completely wrong. See the article of YLH:
Rescinding the ’Concordat’
http://chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002620&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1
No more explanations to give.
#6 said:
``Excellent. Muslims must look only to Holy Quran. All else is second rate, a copy, untrue. Those who try to separate Muslims from the prophets language of Arabic (#2, #5) are foreign agents to the Nation of Islam. Only Arabic can express the beautiful concepts of Islam. All of us know that Allah is not the same as God. Allah has not attributes, God has a son. You know the details. ``
So what about the Hadiths? Is it second rate? The main problem in Islam is not in the Quran but in the interpretation about what is in it. No strict rules are really edicted there, just a guidance (but even here some people will not be agree).
The idea that arabic is a pure beautiful language can compete with the ancient idea that Hebrew is the natural language of all humans (yes peoples believed it). But it`s true that Islam, and the Quran cannnot be separated from the arabic culture because they are coming, at least in `our` time, from that part of the world.
Allah is the same as `God` if you have a little respect of the other religions. Or maybe you think that two worlds coexists with two divinities (and so you`re not a muslim).
If you read the Bible, for example, you will find in the first pages of Genesis, that `Jehovah`` (and not `God`) created the universe, and that this Divinity is not one, unique.
`God``s (who can`t be called `He` because this divinity doesn`t have attribute and cannot be a male) unicity came after in the texts. This suppose an evolution in the understandment of religion, and this paradox doesn`t prove that the text is right or wrong. Religion is strictly in the domain of `belief` and have nothing to do with `rationality`. That`s where is the problem.
So if such an evolution can happen why not in the thinking that the attributes disappeared? It`s like entering a dark room. After sometimes you see some forms and after you can see all the objects. It`s not the objects but your perception which changed.
#25:
``Moreover, it is also universally accepted that this system existed in its ideal form for at least thirty years after the death of the Prophet. However, two confusions have been created in this regard that need to be redressed here. The first consists of the objection that if Islam is indeed the God-given system of life, and if it is really in harmony with human nature, why is it that it lasted only for a period of thirty years?``
Because it`s not universally accepted. If it was, why the majority of the population on earth don`t believed in the prophet of Islam?
It`s like forgetting the opinion of some (I will not even say the majority) of Shiias about the first rulers. This Golden age is basically symbolic, even if the system was not `corrupted` at that time.
``The only salvation for an Islamic nation is in Quran. Anything else will lead Pakistan to Jahaliya``
So the salvation of Islam is in Islam. But is Pakistan an Islamic nation?
Rational problems can`t be solve only in that way. But right, they can be an inspiration. This dichotomy ``good/bad`` can`t be made using Islam-not Islam.
Personally, I think that the solution can only come through secularism, like Jinnah said, and not by using old concepts and values that are acceptable in a specific period of time in History but can`t be repeated other and other again.
Even if nothing is new under the sun, we have to learn from the past and change our mind if it`s necessary to do so, even if our elder said that is against religion, culture or anything having a role in our society... (like the destruction of the patriarchal mentality which thinks to be strong enough to base every single thing on sexuality and on a fictive superiority of the Man on the Woman),
but how?
#33 Posted by Pakfin on December 13, 2003 1:56:24 pm
Listed below are a few of the commonalities between the countries at the top of the HDI:
Secularism
Socialism
High Literacy Rate
Strong Institutions
Justice
Democracy
Secularism
Socialism
High Literacy Rate
Strong Institutions
Justice
Democracy
#32 Posted by vertex on December 13, 2003 10:18:17 am
riffatj,
``Had I written it exclusively for chowk, the line of argument would have definitely been quite different. I think ``
Can you be more specific...exactly how would you argue differently? Why does the argument need to be different for Chowkies and Pakistanis?
``Had I written it exclusively for chowk, the line of argument would have definitely been quite different. I think ``
Can you be more specific...exactly how would you argue differently? Why does the argument need to be different for Chowkies and Pakistanis?
#31 Posted by anew on December 13, 2003 9:37:03 am
#27 by nakhok on December 12, 2003 11:26am PT
#26 by anew on December 12, 2003 6:36am PT
++++
You won`t believe my statement unless I prove you once again (it did happen 1400 years ago) by showing you a Role Model Islamic Country.
++++
Even if we accept the faithful`s belief that ``it did happen 1400 years ago``, its institutional defects must have been so fundamental that it failed to be replicated in the next 1400 years. And, anyway, it is most regressive in the 21st century to want to go back to the norms of 7th century.
....................................................................................................................................
It is not just a `faithful`s belief` but a historical fact. The defect was not in the `Formula` but the users. Please read my ilog if you have patience to really know the reasons of Muslim`s rise and then causes of their decline.
#26 by anew on December 12, 2003 6:36am PT
++++
You won`t believe my statement unless I prove you once again (it did happen 1400 years ago) by showing you a Role Model Islamic Country.
++++
Even if we accept the faithful`s belief that ``it did happen 1400 years ago``, its institutional defects must have been so fundamental that it failed to be replicated in the next 1400 years. And, anyway, it is most regressive in the 21st century to want to go back to the norms of 7th century.
....................................................................................................................................
It is not just a `faithful`s belief` but a historical fact. The defect was not in the `Formula` but the users. Please read my ilog if you have patience to really know the reasons of Muslim`s rise and then causes of their decline.
#30 Posted by nakhok on December 12, 2003 6:17:00 pm
An excerpt on the God of Abraham from article by Jack Miles, a MacArthur Fellow and author of ``God: A Biography`` (Vintage, 1996):
The Koran identifies Allah as none other than the God to whom Abraham offered ``submission`` (or ``islam``) in the episode Jews and Christians know so well from Genesis 22, the story of the binding of Isaac.
As the paradigmatic Muslim, or ``submitter,`` Abraham then made the original paradigmatic pilgrimage to Mecca, Muslims believe, accompanied by the very son, Ishmael, whom Allah had rescued so dramatically.
Jews and Christians have always believed that Muhammad got this story wrong. It was Isaac, not Ishmael, who was bound, they believe, and Abraham made no such pilgrimage to Mecca. But have Jews and Christians also believed, historically, that Muhammad had the divine protagonist wrong as well — to the point that he was referring to another deity altogether?
This, it seems, is Evangelical theologian Richard Land`s assumption when he writes: ``There is only one true God and his name is Jehovah, not Allah.``
The Koran identifies Allah as none other than the God to whom Abraham offered ``submission`` (or ``islam``) in the episode Jews and Christians know so well from Genesis 22, the story of the binding of Isaac.
As the paradigmatic Muslim, or ``submitter,`` Abraham then made the original paradigmatic pilgrimage to Mecca, Muslims believe, accompanied by the very son, Ishmael, whom Allah had rescued so dramatically.
Jews and Christians have always believed that Muhammad got this story wrong. It was Isaac, not Ishmael, who was bound, they believe, and Abraham made no such pilgrimage to Mecca. But have Jews and Christians also believed, historically, that Muhammad had the divine protagonist wrong as well — to the point that he was referring to another deity altogether?
This, it seems, is Evangelical theologian Richard Land`s assumption when he writes: ``There is only one true God and his name is Jehovah, not Allah.``
#29 Posted by riffatj on December 12, 2003 4:30:31 pm
This piece was originally drafted for resident Pakistanis, published by the daily Frontier Post and monthly Defence Journal, hence styled thereafter. Had I written it exclusively for chowk, the line of argument would have definitely been quite different. I think some people are misunderstanding the theme I argued about and the message I tried to convey.
Regards,
R J
Regards,
R J
#28 Posted by RationalFaith on December 12, 2003 4:30:31 pm
nakhok
Pakistani women agree that Quran is the way. Pakistani men agree that Quran is the way. Why are you putting adanga beech me?
The only salvation for an Islamic nation is in Quran. Anything else will lead Pakistan to Jahaliya.
Pakistani women agree that Quran is the way. Pakistani men agree that Quran is the way. Why are you putting adanga beech me?
The only salvation for an Islamic nation is in Quran. Anything else will lead Pakistan to Jahaliya.
#27 Posted by nakhok on December 12, 2003 11:26:30 am
#26 by anew on December 12, 2003 6:36am PT
++++
You won`t believe my statement unless I prove you once again (it did happen 1400 years ago) by showing you a Role Model Islamic Country.
++++
Even if we accept the faithful`s belief that ``it did happen 1400 years ago``, its institutional defects must have been so fundamental that it failed to be replicated in the next 1400 years. And, anyway, it is most regressive in the 21st century to want to go back to the norms of 7th century. Here`s an admission of that simple truth:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-10-2003_pg3_6
Daily Times, Pakistan
Friday, October 17, 2003
The tragedy of the Muslim woman
by Khaled Ahmed
..... there is a clear edict (nas) in the Quran that [a woman] should receive half a share [in inheritance]. .....
..... In India when Jinnah was practising as a lawyer he saw Islamic family law as progressive because it allowed share in property to women and permitted widows to marry. On the other hand, Hindu girls were completely without rights. But in the 1950s Nehru gave full property rights to Hindu girls in violation of the ``shastras``. Today the Muslim girl has fewer rights in India. It is a pity that Pakistan`s laws should be out of step with the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. .....
++++
You won`t believe my statement unless I prove you once again (it did happen 1400 years ago) by showing you a Role Model Islamic Country.
++++
Even if we accept the faithful`s belief that ``it did happen 1400 years ago``, its institutional defects must have been so fundamental that it failed to be replicated in the next 1400 years. And, anyway, it is most regressive in the 21st century to want to go back to the norms of 7th century. Here`s an admission of that simple truth:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-10-2003_pg3_6
Daily Times, Pakistan
Friday, October 17, 2003
The tragedy of the Muslim woman
by Khaled Ahmed
..... there is a clear edict (nas) in the Quran that [a woman] should receive half a share [in inheritance]. .....
..... In India when Jinnah was practising as a lawyer he saw Islamic family law as progressive because it allowed share in property to women and permitted widows to marry. On the other hand, Hindu girls were completely without rights. But in the 1950s Nehru gave full property rights to Hindu girls in violation of the ``shastras``. Today the Muslim girl has fewer rights in India. It is a pity that Pakistan`s laws should be out of step with the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. .....
#26 Posted by anew on December 12, 2003 6:36:58 am
#23
OIC stands for Organization of Impotent Countries? There is a very little Islam in any of these countries. They are Islamic because the majority of the population has Islamic names and some of them perform Islamic Rituals of Salat, Fasting and Pilgrimage. But there is no enforcement of Shariah (Islamic Laws) in a true sense. You won`t believe my statement unless I prove you once again (it did happen 1400 years ago) by showing you a Role Model Islamic Country. Wait.......
#25 Posted by anew on December 12, 2003 6:36:57 am
The true way of life, Deen al-Haq, is not meant to survive submissively as a mere religion under the umbrella of secularism; instead the Holy Qur`an makes it abundantly clear that Islam is meant to dominate all aspects of life and all man-made systems and ideologies. This puts a tremendous responsibility on our shoulders. The Qur`anic commands vis-à-vis human society, culture, law, economics, and politics are not given to us so that we may admire and praise them, but they are meant to be implemented and acted upon.
This necessitates that the gulf between Faith and Power be removed, which obviously requires a revolution in the leadership so that - instead of fulfilling any un-Islamic agenda - it contributes towards the establishment of ``God`s Kingdom`` on earth. Without collective organizational power, a significant portion of Islam reamins confined to the realm of theory, and, as a result, all sorts of corruption, injustice, inequity and immorality are let loose on earth. It`s not that Islam cannot survive or support itself without political authority, but, in fact, it is the political authority that grows more and more corrupt unless it is subordinated to the commands of the Holy Qur`an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad.
The struggle to establish the domination of Islam is one of our basic, though unfortuanately forgotten, duties. The significance of this obligation is underscored by a tradition according to which Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said: ``If a Muslim dies and he had neither participated in any struggle for the cause of Almighty Allah nor had he a desire to take part in such a struggle, then he dies in a state of a certain kind of nifaq (i.e., hypocrisy, and not of true faith).``
A Muslim whose life is devoid of the struggle to establish the system of Khilafah, and who lacks the longing and the deep-felt desire to participate in it and to sacrifice his life for this purpose, can certainly be a Muslim in the legal sense of the word but such a person cannot be a Momin in the sight of Almighty Allah. This is because true conviction or Iman, although itself a hidden and covert reality, necessarily manifests itself in the form of struggle for the cause of Almighty Allah (SWT). This, according to the Holy Qur`an, is what defines a true believer.
They alone are the believers who come to believe in Allah and His messenger and afterwards never doubt, and who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Only they are truthful and sincere. (Al-Hujurat 49:15).
That Prophet Muhammad (SAAWS) did achieve his Divinely ordained goal of establishing the Islamic System of Social Justice after a remarkable and strenous revolutionary struggle that lasted twenty years, is a universally accepted fact.
Moreover, it is also universally accepted that this system existed in its ideal form for at least thirty years after the death of the Prophet. However, two confusions have been created in this regard that need to be redressed here. The first consists of the objection that if Islam is indeed the God-given system of life, and if it is really in harmony with human nature, why is it that it lasted only for a period of thirty years?
The second confusion consists of the misconception that the Islamic System collapsed totally and vanished all of a sudden from the face of the earth after the period of Al-Khilafah Al-Rashidah.
Nothing can be more removed from the truth. All that happened after this golden era of thirty years was that, in the affairs of political governance, the highest democratic standards of mutual consultation (Shura) began to be gradually replaced by the influence of tribal loyalty and the allegiance to the clan (Asabiyyah). As far as genuine monarchy or kingship is concerned, it took at least 90 years to become fully established. The Umayyad period, therefore, should be considered a transitional phase from true Khilafah to overt and unmistakable monarchy; it was actually the Abbassid period that displays all the corruption and exploitation characteristic of kingship, what is described by Allama Iqbal as ``Arabian Imperialism.``
The Islamic System of Social Justice, as established by Prophet Muhammad (SAAWS), did not end in toto with the termination of Al-Khilafah Al-Rashidah, although it must be adimitted that the process of its decline did start from that point onwards. This downward trend has been a very slow and gradual phenomenon, taking at least a full millennium to reach its lowest ebb.
The essence of what we call the “Islamic revolutionary thought” consists of the idea that it is not enough to practice Islam in one`s individual life but that the teachings of the Qur`an and those of the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad must also be implemented in their totality in the social, cultural, juristic, political, and the economic spheres of life.
The obligations of a Muslim as ordained by the Qur`an and Sunnah, can be understood as having four levels:
a Muslim is required to develop real faith and conviction (Iman) in his heart;
he is required to live a life of total obedience to the injunctions of the Shari`ah;
he is required to propagate and disseminate the message of Islam to the entire humanity;
and he is required to try his utmost in establishing the ascendancy of Islam over all man-made systems of life.
#24 Posted by nakhok on December 11, 2003 8:57:53 pm
#22 anew on December 11, 2003 7:13pm PT
There is absolutely nothing in the record of any of the 5 dozen OIC countries to support anew`s hypothesis that:
``[Islam] can plug financial corruption and exploitation in the society which will ensure fair distribution of resources to all.``
There is absolutely nothing in the record of any of the 5 dozen OIC countries to support anew`s hypothesis that:
``[Islam] can plug financial corruption and exploitation in the society which will ensure fair distribution of resources to all.``
#23 Posted by nakhok on December 11, 2003 8:57:53 pm
Riffat Jahan wrote:
++++
Scandinavian countries with their extensive social welfare system, theoretically assuring cradle-to-grave affluence to their nationals are the few places on the planet that remind an ideal Islamic society, where no one goes to bed unfed.
++++
The Scandinavian countries have been a reality for quite sometime. ``an ideal Islamic society``, on the other hand, has never been anything more than the figment of imagination nurtured within the confines of the Ummah. The 5 dozen OIC countries have long been conspicuous by the most blatant inequities on earth. It is the Ummah that has a lot to learn from the Scandinavian countries.
++++
Scandinavian countries with their extensive social welfare system, theoretically assuring cradle-to-grave affluence to their nationals are the few places on the planet that remind an ideal Islamic society, where no one goes to bed unfed.
++++
The Scandinavian countries have been a reality for quite sometime. ``an ideal Islamic society``, on the other hand, has never been anything more than the figment of imagination nurtured within the confines of the Ummah. The 5 dozen OIC countries have long been conspicuous by the most blatant inequities on earth. It is the Ummah that has a lot to learn from the Scandinavian countries.
#22 Posted by anew on December 11, 2003 7:13:14 pm
Islam is not an economic wizrd which can bring Economic prosperity with some magical wand. But as Riffat rightly said it can plug financial corruption and exploitation in the society which will ensure fair distribution of resources to all.
#21 Posted by jay on December 11, 2003 7:35:50 am
ballukhan 19,
Calling that premitive is a fatwable offence, it is blasphemy. Action against ahmadias is in line with what is in the book, and you are telling that it is primitive, well the book could be premitive.
I am waiting for ylh to post that ahmadias are one of the most wealthy, they are in all sorts of high paying jobs and accordingly there is nothing to complain about what is happening to ahmadias. Remeber of course that pakistanis never mention these aspects on chowk, well as tahmed claims they are of course very critical of their country.
Calling that premitive is a fatwable offence, it is blasphemy. Action against ahmadias is in line with what is in the book, and you are telling that it is primitive, well the book could be premitive.
I am waiting for ylh to post that ahmadias are one of the most wealthy, they are in all sorts of high paying jobs and accordingly there is nothing to complain about what is happening to ahmadias. Remeber of course that pakistanis never mention these aspects on chowk, well as tahmed claims they are of course very critical of their country.
#20 Posted by ballukhan on December 11, 2003 7:35:38 am
Riffat-
If you are trying to sell democracy and all the other good things of modern polity in the name of ``Islam`` to the Islamized countries then I am all for it.
If you are trying to sell democracy and all the other good things of modern polity in the name of ``Islam`` to the Islamized countries then I am all for it.
#19 Posted by ballukhan on December 11, 2003 12:12:13 am
#17 by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:43pm PT
OMG!
This is primitive!!!
OMG!
This is primitive!!!
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