The Unmaking Of Gujrat

........... there goes the neighborhood

........i usually don`t pay much attention to what goes on on the wrong side of the border because we have enough problems of our own .......... i couldn`t find gujarat on the map and thought it was somewhere south of sri lanka ............ and the horrible hindoos on the chowk almost had me convinced that india was a true secualar democracy with a gdp that was going to put it ahead of spain at any moment ........ then i find out that this modi character makes our own maulana fazloo and his sidekicks, sammy and qazi, look like a bunch of choir boys..........

.......... i know this is supposed to make me feel a little better about ourself, but some how it doesn`t .......... just goes to show the neighborhood is more dangerous than we thought .............

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RE: 110 by FarzanaVersey on December 15, 2002 11:39am PT
Farzana is incredibly boring, winging, wining, crying, complaining..she has no sense to see clearly with cool mind. She lacks grace, she is rude, she is just spiteful and she is blinded by rage. I think it is people like her who are responsible for bringing all the wrongs to their community. Didn’t I praise kalam? People like Abdul Kalam unite India. But Farzana is like Bal Thakery or maybe Modi of the Muslim community
I had a Muslim computer teacher, such a gentle soul. Malice towards none. And so many other nice people.

Farzana writes “Just in case these worthies have forgotten, there are religions other than Hinduism that do have religious texts.”…
C’mon Farzana ..who has forgotton that. It is you who is harping on and on about Islam Islam Islam..

Didn’t I mention that I myself have read the Holy Quaran… as I have read Guru Granth Sahib…and most of Bible too…and I could never say openly I find them incredibly boring..even if (I add.. even if) I found something boring. There is something good in all of them. But if you want me to say that only Islam is good..or only Quaran is the word of God…why should I say that. What do we know? Who knows all that has been written in the books is just to bind people..to scare them that if they believe in anything but Allah they are doomed. Where is the proof??? Has anyone come back from heavens or hell and told that they believed in any other religion besides Islam and so they went to hell and were tortured. But Muslims have been scared to death by all those strict beliefs.
And do I believe Lord Rama would be angry with Hindus if they do not built a temple again at his birth place…a place where Babar built a mosque by destroying a previous temple. God is One and he would punish us if we do wrong to any community. I happily read all books from all religions. They are more or less the same in their good teachings and only some have more aggressive attitude others are more servile and soft.

My book..my religion…my community…MY MY MY..…Farzana you really lack grace and maturity…your tone of writing is utterly like a teenager. Such forums are not meant for spreading hatred. But you always end up making people fight with each other

113 by Romair on December 15, 2002 2:42pm PT

“Imagine what would have happened in the international media, had a Pakistani govt. organized the killing of upto 2000 Hindus through sword killing Muslims”

Yes, if Pakistani Hindus (whatever few number is left there) had burnt a train full of Paksitani Muslims, killing 60 people in the very Pakistani land…then….well..well…then…….need I say more.
PS: I still don’t approve of what the fanatics do..Hindu or Muslim

#113 by Romair on December 15, 2002 2:42pm PT

“Jinnah was a great man by any standard. Modi is a killer. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.”
Modi is a killer. This is what you know and think..but we think they re the same

Ask those Hindu families who had to ecvacuate their homes in Pakistan (then India) and flee for their lives. Millions killed …And so many …so many of the Hindus who wished to stay there had to immediately get circumcised right in front of mocking public..so as to become a Muslim…so that they could stay in the holy land of Islam. It happened with my grandparents friend’s and relatives……yes!!! And we all know there were more Hindus migrating from Paksitan compared to Muslims going to Pakistan from India..
So to say that Jinnah is a great man…Wah!!!
I have heard that Paksitani song based on a Indian song “De dee hume azaadi bina ……sabarmati ke snt tune kar diya kamal, raghupari raghav rajaram”

Pakistani version of this song is similar in tune but wording is …all praise for Jinnah..that he got independence for Paksitan so peacefully …without any bloodshed…Wah!!…No bloodshed…really..
The kind of horrible scenes narrated by my grandparents are worse than hell. To ye to jis par beettee hai wohi janta hai..

Urstruly#117

``what a releif to see that we will always be a step behind.``

I agree, you will always be step behind, I would say lot of steps behind, how ever not in this respect. After hearing for years that your fundos are a fringe group and have never won an election, they made a clean sweep of half of your states. Our fundos have only won in one state and lost in three.

Romair #113
Multiple references have been posted several times on what is taught to Pakistani children. If noone here chooses to acknowledge or comment on these references..?

Re the similarities, the statements of many Pakistanis posting on chowk, the statements of Modi and the statements of Jinnah bear a curious resemblence. How many Hindus were originally in Pakistan and how many of them ARE still left in Pakistan?

Let me jog your memory with a quote remembered recently (reply 196)
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001622&channel=chaathouse&start=60&end=69&page=7&chapter=1#replies

This is no `blame` being assigned here, only the continuity of the idea of essential religious separateness is being pointed out. Modi uses similar politics but he need to be dealt with by Indians, without reference to anyone except India and Indians.

Farzana
If your quote looks the same as my quote, what more can I say.

Dear Hindus

I think congratulations are in order for the great victory.

[I used to think that my country was fukked up; what a releif to see that we will always be a step behind.]

sadna #109: ``To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah and what Modi says to win elections is the exact counterpart of what is taught in Pakistan in school as the basis for nationhood. ``

This is an extremely ridiculous comment -biased, filled with hatred, misguided self-serving justifications and the reason that people like Modi are winning in India. Jinnah was a great man by any standard. Modi is a killer. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I am not sure how many schools you have attended in Pakistan. So please get your facts straight. No one in Pakistani schools is taught to kill Hindus, or hate Hindus as a basis of nationalism. And no where in Pakistan are Hindus being killed by the common populace. None of the religious parties of Pakistan have on their agenda, killing of Hindus or any other minority (go check their websites - unlike the BJP, which states its racism on its website against Muslims). At most they want separate seats - an idea that has been shot down by Musharraf.

Modi is not a avatar of Jinnah. Modi is what Jinnah was afraid of, when he demanded Pakistan. Jinnah was afraid that Modi(s)/Advanis/Vajpayees of India would someday take over India, or at least enjoy great influence in certain areas of India. Modis of India are a vindication of Jinnah`s views and a vindication of Pakistan, as far as I am concerned.

Jinnah wanted Pakistan, not because he thought any country with two religions should be two separate countries. He wanted Pakistan, because he felt the BJPs of India would never consider Muslims equal to them, and thus Muslims would never get the protection they needed. Jinnah even agreed to a joint federation of India, with no Pakistan, in which Muslims security would be gauranteed (an idea accepted by Gandhi and the British, but shot down by Nehru).

I can sit here, as a Pakistani, and loudly and proudly, criticise the BJP, with zero fear of any backlash. Could I have done that had I lived in Gujrat? I, as a Muslim, have zero fear of the Hinduvta revolution in India. Can the same be said about patriotic Indian Muslims - each one I talk to is sitting scared and frustrated wondering what the hell is going to happen to him/her, if the BJP really shows its true colors, while simultanerously attempting to be politically correct, so as to not get the Congress angry?

Indians need to get out of blaming everything on Pakistan, and do some introspection - much like Pakistanis are doing and have been forced to do, over the past three years. The reason the BJP killed so many of its own citizens has nothing to do with Jinnah. It hates Jinnah. How in the world could it use him as its symbol. It has nothing in common with Jinnah (or with Gandhi, for that matter).

The day the Gujrat riots occured was the day my respect for Jinnah grew many fold - not because of his personal secularism (I am neither a secularist, nor a religionist - I am a humanist), but because of his far-sightedness and his humanism.

Pakistanis get blamed from both sides in India. The Nehruvians hate Pakistanis because they think Pakistan discredited the secularism of India and created the Modis. The BJPians hate them because they think the split up, ``their`` land.

The more and more I read such comments, the more I am begining to realize the wierd predicament the Indian Muslims are in. They are caught between a nutcracker of Indian politics, being used by both sides. Congress uses them to justify its, ``secularism,`` while BJP uses them to justify its, ``Hinduvta.`` One party requires them to put their religion on the backburner to be a part of the mainstream, while the other uses their religion to divide the Hindu polity. Who in the world is actually trying to look after the Indian Muslim interests?

And most of all, if Indians consider Indian Muslimsto be their fellow countrymen, then what difference does it make to them who Jinnah was or wasn`t? Why bring him into everything? Why not state the obvious, i.e. there is a great deal of popularity of sidelining Muslims in India and of promoting Hinduvta. Many Indians have voted, freely and fairly, for this again and again. This is a huge problem for India in the future. And it is a completely self-created problem. Blaming Pakistan for it is not going to solve it (infact, by doing so the BJPs and sadnas are actually enflaming it furthur).

Pakistan has had to go through a lot of soul-searching and criticism in the past three years - specially since Sep 11. Many Pakistanis have been rightly upset at the free-for-all shots everyone and their grandparents have been taking against Pakistan (e.g. ``To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah and what Modi says to win elections is the exact counterpart of what is taught in Pakistan in school as the basis for nationhood.``). Everyone assumes Pakistan gave nuclear secrets to Korea, because one guy in the New York Times say so (no proof, no evidence - just an article). People cannot even name the journalist, but take his word, knowing fully well the policy of the US govt. in planting false stories in newspapers (please see last weeks 60 minutes). At least ask the guy to provide evidence, and then pass a judgement.

I have always felt that all this, though painful in the short run, in the long run, is good for Pakistan. It has forced Pakistan to deal with all the issues that had been shoved under the carpet, in an international spotlight. Much of the criticism of Pakistan was politically motivated, but much was accurate. It has forced Pakistan to recognize the many cancers that were eating it up.

India, unfortunately, due to its larger size and internaitonal clout, has not been forced to deal with its skeletons in its closets. Imagine what would have happened in the international media, had a Pakistani govt. organized the killing of upto 2000 Hindus through sword killing Muslims?

There is only seat in the past elections that has gone to a clearly extremist political party. That was the seat won by Azam Tariq of the Sapah-e-Sahaba (SSP - Pakistan`s equivalent of BJP) in Jhang. SSP has an agenda of killing and sidelining Shias. SSP party was banned and he was in jail. The Supreme Court ordered his release, since he had been put in jail without proof. India`s SSP is running the country. I would be concerned if the SSP took over Pakistan and I would not blame it on India. Indians should be concerened similarly, since the BJP is running India.

If any party in Pakistan, as a part of its agenda, had the killings/sidelining of minorities in Pakistan, I would oppose it, even if it turned Pakistan into Singapore (one of the main reasons I support Musharraf is because of the support he has given to minorities and to women in Pakistan). This is more than I can say for BJP supporters in India. Infact, if BJP had done well economically, the now disheartened supporters of BJP, would have not worried too much about its views on Indian Muslims.

Indians are facing a huge dilemma with the win of BJP in Gujrat. As an outsider, all I can say is, it seems that if the BJP returns to its Hinduvta roots, it wins. If it is moderate, it loses. If the BJP sticks around for fifteen years, it will tear apart India`s vulnerable social are communal fabric.

At a time like this, the last thing any patriotic Indian should do is to take cheap shots at Jinnah and Pakistan.

Well, folks the Pakistanization of Gujarat is complete today. Jinnah`s heir in India is none other that Narendra Modi. For one, Islam was in danger; for the other hindoun ko khatra hai. Both believe and supported the two nation theory. Both called for and allowed others to implement a murder-filled direct action day.

So the fight is on. Today the hindus have their own Bhidranwala in the form of Togadia and Jinnah in the form of Narendra Modi. It will be our duty to resist these people with the same strength that we resisted their ``progenitors``. Jai Hind ! Satyamev Jayate !

Here is the latest from Rediff.com on the future of things to come.
Apologists for indian secularism......... please don`t bother.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`Hindu Rashtra` in two years: Togadia
[The Bharatiya Janata Party`s victory in Gujarat was a turning point in Indian history and the experiment of the `Hindutva lab` will be repeated in Delhi, Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader Pravin Togadia said on Sunday.

Togadia told a press conference in Jaipur: ``The Hindutva lab has started functioning... the BJP has won all the three seats where by-elections were held in Rajasthan. The final result will come by the next assembly election in the state.

``When madrassas in various parts of the country can train jihadis, why can`t the VHP set up its Hindutva lab?

``The minorities should decide how they want to live in India... The VHP will not decide their future... it is a question of co-existence in the Hindu Rashtra.

``A Hindu Rashtra can be expected in the next two years... we will change India`s history and Pakistan`s geography by then,`` he added.]

hey there,
this kind of rhetoric from coming from any side isnt healthy...
after reaqding through the article and most of the responses, I found nothing but just superficial shit throwing all across the board. Would this solve the problem, probably not, would it agravate it? definitely yes!
So what should we do...
think about the solution...
++#101 by m_souza ++
I found some hint of reasonability in some of your comments, so would like to forward this debate with my two pennies...
As a student of world religions I found out that all these religions were evolved with the evolution of the human beings from a savage animal and a slave of his instincts, into a being with higher intelectual powers. Under a wide range of circumstances through out the planet earth these humans, developed there own theories and set of beliefs to answer there questions for the things they they didnt knew or they couldnt explain. This led to development of sciences, when things could be explained using certain logics or proofs, or to the development of religion when things were beyond the logics and proofs, discovered till then, by atributing it to the unknown higher powers(GOD). In the past few centuries, when the humans broke the barriers of distance and got closer to each an exchange of ideas of all kind and theories of all type happened which led to the openiong of this scientific progress which we see today. Unfortunately, however, this development in the realms of sciences out-paced the development in the field of religion. Most of the religions we see today have actualy stopped growing and in fact started shrinking in their ideological base.
Moreeover we had the stupid idea that the science, church, individual life, state, society are separate entities and should not interfere with each other. This crippled the Human development so much that we are now afraid of thinking. the proponents of this division had went on too far in creating this gulf, but its still not that late to mend it.
The solution to ur problems is in the further growth of all these religions until the peak of their evolution, by merging in to each other yet keeping their own identity. Aftrerall, they all preach the same idea of a higher being, and of human dignity and peaceful co-existance in their essence, using different names and themes.
We need forums to spread the word and lead to a reunification of all these compartments of human life into one, so we can achieve the eternal bliss for our species.
Time to go will appear later, and would love to see some response to my comments.

Yes, so we are a democracy. Someone at Chowk can talk about how Modi deserves to be murdered, but he will still blather if I raise the issue. Because, I have the wrong `identity`. This too is democracy. Anyway, rejoice...this is the way my India is going, and if you want to really know what the hell I mean, come back home.

As for those who are happily misquoting me and telliing me that I should at least have some respect for the Hindu religion, here is my quote from post #57: ``I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway.`` Just in case these worthies have forgotten, there are religions other than Hinduism that do have religious texts.

Sadna, thanks...though I had only asked for the right quote :) The PM uttered those words, irrespective of everything else. However, I cannot go through all the urls you posted, though your access to the material is enviable indeed.

(Btw, just discovered the rating system here...heartening to note that ``irrelevant`` stuff gets people so hot, bothered and responsive!)

post #109

``To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah``

Yet another asinine statement from one of the self-proclaimed ``objective`` Hindus at Chowk.

feroz
I appreciate what you are saying and this is indeed the time to say it, thanks. I hope you realise, the point you are talking of didnot come in 1971 for `Pakistanis`, it came in the years before 1947. To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah and what Modi says to win elections is the exact counterpart of what is taught in Pakistan in school as the basis for nationhood.
----whatever

A figure given by someone on cable news(I donot know how accurate) was that before Godhra, the BJP would have won only 40-50 seats(something like the Congress has won). Just before Godhra, Modi had won a byelection by a narrow margin and before that the Congress had wiped out the BJP statewide in panchayat and municipal elections, including winning Ahmedabad city after many years. That was the result of 10 years of BJP in office.

So Godhra and its aftermath did help BJP a lot.

But, in an electorate of 30 million with sub regions where Cong HAS made gains at the expense of BJP, and there were local factors at play(like caste, earthquake relief and anti-incumbency), this was not a Hindu-Muslim hate vote alone. I donot know if the final vote shares are out, but at an intermediate stage, they were shown as BJP 49% Cong 40% and others 9%.

In the `first past the post` electoral system, its not the absolute vote share as can be seen from the above figures, but the `swing` in vote share or percentage difference(in this case 9%) is what decides whether it will be hung assembly or a 2/3rd majority or what. The reasons for the swing (if I am not mistaken 9% is considered a large swing) are what need to be understood and hate-and-Modi-vs-Waghela was no doubt THE major factor.

But emotions are ephemeral and profit only politicians while they last. In some months time, if things settle down, I wonder if business-savvy Gujju bhais whose economy has been suffering under Modi are going to wake up one day and think omigosh we already had 10 years of these folks and now we have 5 more years to go.

As for the VHP-BJP strategy of hate, spreading to other regions, I am sure its very possible in pockets,esp given what they say of the central Gujarat tribal belt which used to be Cong. dominated but saw riots and contributed many seats to the BJP sweep too. Emulating Gujarat in a whole state may be much more difficult, IMO.

Hate is good, hate is powerful, hate is glorious----only if directed against the oppressor, the imperialist, the thug, the gangster.

With a resounding chorus and in unison the entire humanity is letting us know---the Devil is the US, the Anglo, the `West`. Until & unless these thugs do not learn to visit others without uniform & guns this hatred would continue relentless & unabated, within & without.

Wise ones learn, Ignorants & Arrogants are taught.

____________________________________________________________Koreans protest US response to girls` death

SEOUL, Dec 14: Tens of thousands of people carrying candles descended on the US embassy here Saturday to protest what they considered was an inadequate US response to the deaths of two schoolgirls crushed by a US military vehicle in June.

Regular protests have rocked Seoul for a month as the anti-US sentiment sparked by a US court martial`s decision to acquit two soldiers on charges of negligent homicide in the incident has reached a near boiling point.

On Saturday, an intersection near the US embassy was awash in flickering candlelight, the tapers borne aloft by an estimated crowd of 50,000 people who booed and shouted slogans.

``Bring Mi-sun and Hyo-soon back to life,`` the crowd chanted, interspersing inspiring songs led by Yoon Do-Hyun, who composed a fight song for the recent football World Cup here.

Protesters also gathered in front of city hall, where student radicals shredded eight giant US flags. Slogans were also chanted that urged changes to the controversial Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which regulates relations with the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and allows US authorities jurisdiction over crimes committed by American soldiers in the line of duty. Some demanded the outright withdrawal of all US troops.

Organizers said Saturday`s rallies were the biggest so far, as the anti-US sentiment that was once largely confined to radical student groups had infected mainstream South Koreans, including star athletes, movie stars and musicians.

Police mobilized 15,000 riot-trained troops clad in protective gear and carrying shields to control the largely-peaceful crowd, creating a human ring around the high-walled embassy that was also protected by bumper-to-bumper police buses.

Activists have hurled Molotov cocktails in the wave of protests leading up to Saturday`s event, and have rushed the security lines to force their way onto US military bases. But no incidents were reported Saturday.

In the southeastern city of Daegu, two students wrapped in the national flag scaled the wall of a US military base and climbed up to a giant water tank to chant their anti-US slogan, footage broadcast on television showed.

A phone call Friday with South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung in which US President George W. Bush voiced his ``deep personal sadness`` - the first time the US president made direct reference to the deaths of the girls - did little ease the growing anti-US sentiment in what had been one of Washington`s strongest Asian allies.

US Ambassador to Seoul Thomas Hubbard had earlier conveyed Bush`s regret over the tragedy. ``We cannot accept it as a direct apology to the Korean people. We demand him to apologize in the capacity of the US president instead of whispering personal sadness on the phone,`` said Chai Hee-Byeong, secretary general of an umbrella group of civic activists.

Chai said Bush sidestepped the issue of a controversial accord governing the status of the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea, offering only a vague promise to work closely with Seoul to prevent such accidents in the future.-AFP