The Unmaking Of Gujrat

Talking about the muslim heart.
I just fail to understand what these muslim guys and gals want out of life.wherever in the world they are not in a majority they fail to adjust and live with others.now everybody but the muslim could not be at fault for this right?
Take muslim minorities with christians.USA, Russia,France,former Yugoslavia.They are just not willing to live in peace.no sir, we cannot live with kafirs can we?we want our own damn islamic republic or a kinghdom or dictatorship which would be even better.
Muslims with jews.Better not talk about it.
Musims with hindus.India has been ravaged by their rampant population explosion, backwardness and a rigidity to change.
now it seems they have a spat coming up with buddhists in sri lanka and china.
they had already displaced the zoarastrians from iran ages back.
what next?
Beware, the Lapps of finland.do not allow muslims into your midst or we could see some kind of terrorist activitity in scandidavia too!!!

Ref ali87 #261

That part about ``...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long.... `` is a quote from rsaxena. I was responding to his post by quoting him first.

When are you going to learn to read?

#248 by harimau on December 22, 2002 9:33am PT
...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

So your Idea of free will and democracy similar to the reaction of pakistan in the case of bangladesh...

Great!!

Your Idea of treason is similar to the medvial age where the kings held areas wether people liked it or not.

If APHC asks for the blood of the likes of you then they are entirely justified.

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rsridhar miaN:

uzzrey gunaah bud tur uz gunnah...

``where I am concerned, Hindutva goons get nothing except the noose or hard labor for life.`` -- not the muslims -- rsridhar miaN

rsridhar # #
After reading just a little of the Concerned Citizen`s Panel Report on the post-Godhra riots, where I am concerned, Hindutva goons get nothing except the noose or hard labor for life.

re:#255 by AmericanExpress
I have, in my earlier post, alluded to a research study that shows riots do not happen when the 2 communities forge a close relationship at work place. No political party can succeed in creating riots if the 2 communities have already forged a close nexus.
Hindus in India are by and large peace loving. Riots like Gujarat have happened since 1947. What makes Gujarat different is that, for the first time, a fundamental ideology has been used crudely and openly to garner votes.
You depict the same mentality as the muslims in India when you say this is muslim vs hindu equation. If it is so, there is not much hope for the muslims. The debate ranging among the hindu community is : what is the real meaning of secularism? BJP has given its own meaning and calls secularism of Congress, practised so far, as pseudo-secularism. Increasing number of hindus are now taking the BJP view. Congress, which had been a safe haven for minorities since independence, has failed today. The question to ask is: why is this happening? Has all this something to do with the general image of muslims the world over? Why are increasing number of average, peaceloving hindus hating muslims?

Instead of saying what i have said, i will paste Dr Rafiq Zakaria`s views from his book ``Communal Rage in Secular India (Popular Prakashan, Mumbai)`` which i read in Arvind Lavakare`s column in Rediff(url: http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/17arvind.htm).
His views on ``what the Indian muslims must do`` are as follows:
Beginning of quote:

1. ``Muslims must try and become an integral part of the mainstream... they must whole-heartedly co-operate in enriching composite nationalism which continues to be our pride... they must get out of their ghetto mentality, break the barriers of alienation and generate a harmonious environment.``

2. ``They should do some introspection and ask whether they have genuinely tried to contribute to the strengthening of Hindu-Muslim relations since Partition. The answer will be no.``

3. ``Indian Muslims must open their eyes to the ground reality that an increasing number of Hindus have begun to hate them... This is not confined to a small section; it has infected the rich as much as the poor; men as much as women; the young as much as the old; even children are no longer free from it.``

4. ``This is the ugly reality that Muslims have to face in today`s India. They have to do their best to bring about a change in the hostile attitude of the communal Hindus towards them. This is as much in their interest as that of the nation. Muslims continue to live in a make-believe world of their own. Their leaders waste their energies in playing games, whipping up emotions, and bringing more trouble to the ordinary Muslims.`
`Their self-serving leaders, with utter disregard to the aftermath of Partition, remained oblivious to their miserable decline and continued to behave with incredible arrogance, exhibiting a sense of false bravado by their loud utterances; they take out protest marches at the slightest pretext, hold demonstrations, shout slogans, demand justice and fair play but all this never gives any relief to the community... They fail to understand that by voicing meaningless grievances, asking for unrealistic rights, wailing, fretting and fuming, the leaders may gain some publicity but the community loses a great deal. They quote the Constitution and demand the implementation of this provision or that, guaranteed to the minorities but none of it gives Muslims the required protection; even democracy is ranged heavily against them because under it numbers count.``

5. ``Have these leaders and their hold on different sections of Muslims ever been tested? Have their credentials been verified? Their uncompromising and rigid attitude on every occasion has only weakened Hindu-Muslim relations further.
Instead of coming out openly against Pakistan and taking a strong stand against the jihadis, these so-called guardians of Indian Muslims spend most of their time in running their own political shops to buttress their communal leadership.
None of these leaders visit villages so they are unaware of the fallout of their actions on the poor and hapless who live in the remote parts of the country.``

6. ``Indian Muslims must now see the light of day and move in a different direction which will take them forward and not backward. They must discard their worn-out prejudices and outmoded habits and adjust themselves to the requirements of the changing times. They must give up asking for doles which will only cripple them. In order to survive, they must learn to stand on their own feet. For the fact is that they have no true friends; many of those who show them sympathy or consideration are not sincere. They do so only to obtain some electoral gain. This has been proved time and time again.``

7. ``Muslims rely on India`s commitment to secularism, but it has not proved to be of much help. Nor have Muslims of other countries ever come to their rescue.``

8. ``To succeed, Indian Muslims must boldly come forward to undergo an all-round transformation in their style of functioning. If they neglect or fail to do so…they will be ruined.
They will succeed if parents shed their old habits, give up their outdated notions, and encourage and help their sons and daughters to get the best of education. Merit alone will give them reward; they must never seek patronage.``

9. ``Indian Muslims must disown the bigotism which has made Muslims pariahs everywhere. They must... give to the non-Muslims the assurance that their religion stands for `live and let live.` The orthodox clerics who shut themselves from the world must not be allowed to lock the Muslims.`
`They must, without compromising the Quranic injunctions, agree to the introduction of certain much-needed, essential changes in their Personal Law, particularly the enactment of monogamy. There is, in fact, enough scope under the Shariah to amend the laws relating to marriage, divorce, dower and even maintenance... .Ijtihad, (independent thinking) which was freely used by the classical jurists in the past, needs to be exercised by the present generation much more today.``

10. ``The issue of Babri Masjid must be amicably resolved; instead of talking it over with responsible elements among the Hindus, confrontation was adopted to press the point. This gave rise to more hatred against the Muslims. ... What have the Muslim leaders really gained by mounting agitation after agitation?
The controversy on the singing of Vande mataram by Muslims is also meaningless. It was sung by all Muslim leaders, belonging to the Congress, during the freedom struggle... Those Muslims who do not want to sing it, may not but they must stand up when it is sung as a mark of respect to an anthem which has a hoary past and is declared as a national song in the Constitution. Why add hurt to an already worsening inter-communal relationship?``

11. ``Hindus are piqued by the fact that Muslims are multiplying fast, much more than Hindus. The Census figures, decade after decade, confirm it... communal Hindus are, by and large, convinced that polygamy results in an increased rate of growth of people. It is, therefore, not in the interest of Indian Muslims to persist with it... Then there is the question of family planning, on which much of our progress depends; it cannot be denied that Muslims have not taken to it as seriously as the Hindus; this has to be corrected... .There is no truth in the allegation that Islam prohibits family planning.``

12. ``There must be a real awareness among Indian Muslims that they have to gird up their loins and prepare for reconciliation with Hindus on the basis that each respects the religious and cultural conventions, traditions and sentiments of the other.``
End of quote.

All that is pretty soul searching, isn`t it? When i see Shahi Imam addressing a huge gathering and preaching hatred, i get the feeling that muslims, instead of forging ties with the majority, are heading for a confrontation with them.
Sridhar

re:#245 by sadna
Sadna,
I agree with the spirit of your letter. Yes, the fundamentalists need to be crushed. But, how do you crush them when they are gathering in numbers every day? Their new slogan is terrorism. Very crudely, Modi sought to equate terrorism with Musharraf and by implication, all muslims in the subcontinent. When day in and day out common man sees pictures of terrorism on TV, Modi`s task becomes all the more easier. How does one confront such a man?
You have to bring him to a different plane where he is ineffective. Whatever ways are available to strengthen secularism should be tried.
Giving up claim of Babri masjid by muslims will not embolden fundamentalists. It will throw them completely off the track. The fund of good will that will pour out will immensely benefit muslims and secularism. In military parlance, this is a kind of ``tactical retreat``.
Having said all that, i do not for a moment, think this is going to happen. Babri masjid is an emotional issue with muslims and they are not going to give it up. The big question is: are they serving any good cause by just prolonging a fight that has no end in sight? I still think my idea is better.
Sridhar

re:#246 by ferozk
I do not think all this in terms of muslims versus hindus. This is secularism vs fundamentalism. Muslims are not fighting hindus. Their fight is against some fundamentalist hindus. There is a huge difference between the two.
India is not a Nazi country tho` we have to tolerate nazi- like characters like Modi. Muslims in India are not facing a holocaust. The last time i checked, they still have all their fundamental rights intact. How they exercise these rights will determine their future and the future of secular India. My contention is, instead of making it into a hindu vs muslim thing, muslims in India should reach out to secular hindus, christians, sikhs, etc and confront this new monster with all strength.
Sridhar

re:#244 by nasah
BJP has milked the Babri Masjid issue to the last drop. There is nothing in it for BJP anymore, politically speaking. That is why, Babri masjid was a non-issue during Gujarat elections. BJP has found a better and more potent (and by implication, a more fundamentalist) slogan viz terrorism. It is equating Islam and muslims with terrorism, all in one sweep.
Whereas common man is unaware of the political brinkmanship at the highest level (note how, after condemning Modi, Vajpayee attended his swearing in ceremony), he is easily swayed by communal rhetoric.
Babri Masjid is not functioning as a masjid anymore. No namaaz has been held there for quite sometime. The matter is with court but court is unlikely to give a clearcut verdict in favor of muslims. It is hard for any court to decide on such matters. At best, the decision will be a compromise, leaving both sides unhappy.
This was the reason why i said it would be a good idea if muslims can give up their claim on the mosque. A fund of goodwill that will come out of this single decision will help the cause of secularism much more than anything else i can think of.
Sridhar

http://www.flonnet.com/fl1926/stories/20030103004811600.htm
If we still condone Modi and VHP after reading this, then we are not human.

The BJP/VHP etc are really very clever. If they want to only unite all Hindus, across caste barriers, I would not mind. But their campaign is against Muslims. What Indian Muslims need is their own Sangh Parivar that has grassroots organisation and committed cadres, that will work for their welfare and mobilize them peacefully. No amount of whining or becoming a votebank for the Congress or Mayawati or Mulayam will work.

``It will be a huge loss to India, Hindus and Hinduism if Indians, Muslims and Hindus agree to any settlement which gives VHP goons and their violent extortionist tactics an legitimacy(over the state) as representatives of Hindus, legitimacy which I as a Hindu have certainly not granted them.``(sadna)

Bless u betee -- jeetee raho!

Ref rsaxena #197

[...it`s about time...one of the pigs is quite funny...after the death sentence was announced, he said ``If asking for liberation for Kashmir is terrorism, then I`m a terrorist.``....boohoo, someone cry him a river...

...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

{Three Sentenced to Die for Indian Parliament Raid

NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- Three Indian men were sentenced to death Wednesday for their role in a deadly attack on Parliament that brought India to the brink of war with Pakistan.} ]

The Anti-Hindu published an editorial deploring the death sentence, completely forgetting the fact that the last time we kept people in prison as opposed to sending them to their 72 houris, we had a plane hijacked and a passenger killed and several million dollars ransom paid.

It is time to kidnap that kokscuker N. Ram and hold him hostage till the guys who conspired to shoot up the Parliament are released. If the latter doesn`t happen, my suggestion would be the swift sword of death for N. Ram.

``That is the beauty of facism and facists that they blame the victim for being victimized and ask the minority to make the majority feel protected! A pure Orwellian delight!`` (ferozk)

most aptly put --- feroz miaN

rsridhar #240
Yielding to VHP mob violence on ANY issue is like yielding to jihadis in Kashmir, a lose-lose proposition which solves nothing and only invites future grief.

Yielding to jihadis in Kashmir for example, would grant violent Islamism legitimacy as representative of Muslims aspirations, it would grant legitimacy to the use of indicriminate hate and violence, it wouldnot put an end anything, rather it would set the the stage for much worse to come from adversaries we ourselves would have strengthened. Ms. Gandhi`s wanting to save Bhutto and his country a shred of honor and dignity in 1971 is a good example of which has incurred a running cost of many Indian lives and solved nothing.

Similarly the goons of Hindutva organisations cannot be given legitimacy, they need to be crushed or moderated. They donot talk only of Ayodhya, they talk of other places too, 20,000 is the number I think. They `reclaimed` a number of places in Gujarat during the riots and for example yesterday they tried to create a fuss at Qutb Minar.

It will be a huge loss to India, Hindus and Hinduism if Indians, Muslims and Hindus agree to any settlement which gives VHP goons and their violent extortionist tactics an legitimacy(over the state) as representatives of Hindus, legitimacy which I as a Hindu have certainly not granted them. It will put Hindus and Muslims at further risk from a strengthened Hindutva movement. VHP goons represent only VHP as an organisation which owns land around the disputed site and they have no right to claim more than that. We have to wrest Hindu causes from the VHP not yield to them simply because they are willing to kill large numbers of people.

As for Modi, he is reported to have a very dictatorial style of functioning, it will be interesting to see how he manages to keep 126 MLAs happy for 5 years. As for pogroms, well in Kerala and WB CPM has held on to its vote base for many years by use of very similar tactics of grassroots intimidation, also there are Naxalite armed groups operating in a number of areas, N Ram runs a whole national newspaper sympathetic to the Chinese cause :) and we are not rushing to fly the red flag on Red Fort.

Indians must not lose nerve. We have to outlast these crises by imposing moderation on career extremists on either side. Meanwhile we must aim to create a split in the BJP, thats what I am thinking.

Re: Nasah ## 244

My friend, welcome to the club!

That is the beauty of facism and facists that they blame the victim for being victimized and ask the minority to make the majority feel protected! A pure Orwellian delight!

Re: rsridhar

I have a few questions for you.

Had the European Jewery agreed to the terms of the Nazis and perpetuated the Holocaust on themselves, would they have earned the good will of Herr Hitler?

Had the East Pakistanis accepted their malfeased treatment at the hands of West Pakistanis, would they have earned the good will of the West Pakistanis?

Had the Kurds allowed Saddam Hussein to continually use posion gas on them, would they have earned the good will of Saddam?

Rsridhar, today it is the Muslims and you can rationalize your choice and; tomorrow it could be the Christians and you could rationalize your choice and then, the day after it, it could be the Dalits. You can rationalize your arguments and your choices, but did you ever wonder that one day it could be you and some one else might justify your loss of freedom as a rational choice?

Would you feel the same way as you feel now?

Ciao

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rsridhar to sadna

“”One great step muslims in India can take is to let the majority community build a temple at Ayodhya. I was the one who said that nothing like this should ever be done as it would weaken secularism. But that was before Gujarat pogrom and elections. Right now, muslim community can win tremendous goodwill by sacrifycing its position on RJM/BM issue.””

You asked me if hindus should not also introspect. Sure they should. There is already a lot of introspecition going on. But, the die has been cast by Modi and his ilk and it is now left to muslims how they respond. (rsridhar)

Great ‘introspection’ rsridhar miaN –
I don`t know if sadna would -- but I agree with u wholeheartedly --

that goonda -- called Modi should definitely be rewarded with a Hindu Temple at the site of Babri Masjid -- especially -- AFTER -- “Gujarat pogrom and (that bigoted) election” -- --

surely the “die has been cast by Modi” -- “it is now left to Muslim” – to just prostrate themselves before “Modi and his ilk”-- and ask the permission -- to be used as -- Welcome MATS -- to clean their bloody Hindutva shoes -- any time of the day or night!

with secular friends like dr. rsridhar -- who needs those crummy Hindutva enemies -- anyway!!

anyway -- thanks for the GREAT advice – how thoughtful of u!

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re:#228 by sadna
I think you are twisting my argument. Jayalalitha did not indulge in a pogrom but Modi did. Latter has struck against the very foundation of the Indian state viz secularism, which, along with democracy and socialism, form the tripod on which India stands today.
Modi should never have been allowed (by Supreme Court) to contest elections. Having won the elections, he can now argue that people of his state like Hindutva and are against muslims. The queston is: how did the majority community in Gujarat come to this passe? There must have been years of indoctrinaton going on right from school level onwards.
This is not a Muslim Vs Hindu thing though Modi and his ilk would love to see it generate into that very equation. This is secularism vs fundamentalism. Muslims must join secular forces at every level and strengthen the hands of such forces. This is exactly what they need to introspect upon. How do they become more effective in changing their pro-fundamentalist image (Modi played on this skillfully; his calling Musharraf Mian Musharraf and saying he was against terrorist looked fine on print but he was equating Islam with terrorism in one sweep)?
One great step muslims in India can take is to let the majority community build a temple at Ayodhya. I was the one who said that nothing like this should ever be done as it would weaken secularism. But that was before Gujarat pogrom and elections. Right now, muslim community can win tremendous goodwill by sacrifycing its position on RJM/BM issue. This will also strengthen the hands of secular elements, who can take on BJP and allies with renewed vigor. Right now, secular forces are thoroughly demoralised and have no clue want went wrong and why did they lose.
India recently passed Right to Education bill. This is a milestone. All children between 4 and 15 yrs of age have a right to education. Will the muslim community take advantage of this by sending their children to govt schools since it is now GOI`s responsilbility to foot the bill? Here is a great chance for the poor in this community to come out of their self-imposed seclusion.
You asked me if hindus should not also introspect. Sure they should. There is already a lot of introspecition going on. But, the die has been cast by Modi and his ilk and it is now left to muslims how they respond.
Sridhar

studebaker #223
Christians are under attack by Parivar but we can resist them only by joining hands with the majority. Calling them Hindians doesnt help Christians. When India goes Pakistan`s way, I will give up hope in India.

Qusman1,

Au contraire Pakistan prides itself on the treatment of its minorities and many other things (not that the world at large buys it!) India has witnessed horrific communal violence perpetrated by intemperate groups of Muslims ofr most of the 20th century. Ambedkar (who is by no means communal) recounts every major occurence from 1920 to 1940 in his masterful exposition on the question of Pakistan (www.ambedkar.org/pakistan - chapter VII) including the infamous Moplah pogrom of 1922 in Kerala which left 1000s of Hindus dead. As for Gujarat itself does anyone know that over 7000 Hindus are in custody pending trial for their role in the riots vs. 3000 Muslims for a similar reason? Does anyone know that over 200 Hindus were killed in firings and police action used to quell the riots? This tendency to quote at length from the self-same news sources which in turn are based on 2nd and 3rd hand sources leads us nowhere.

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#222 by m_souza on December 19, 2002 3:48pm PT

Pakistan has never pretended to be secular.

Of the 1-2% or so hindus, haven`t heard of any hindus in the armed forces since the 1950s. A few hindus have gained prominent position within the establishment, like Justice Rana Bhagwan Das and the civil servant P.K.Shahani. BTW, Advani`s cousin still practices law in Karachi.

There`s a web site called Pakistani Hindu Patrika, which you may want to check out in this regard.

Overall, Pakistan has a dismal record on minorities.

However, it is just amazing to see riots in India, with thousands dying in just a few days. The accompanying denials and justifications are indications of hypocrisy.

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No outrage at the JI masterplan for Pakistan and the kafirs? Hypocrites.

rsridhar #227
``However, despite all the outcry by the English press, the common man in gujarat has supported Modi`s agenda``

You are mixing two issues here. The letter and spirit of the Constitution and electoral results. Electoral results donot nullify the violations of the letter and spirit of the Constitution.

Jayalalitha was elected Chief Minister, that doesnot mean she is no longer guilty of breaking the law through her corrupt practises and that the cases against her can be dismissed. Her being elected for instance didnot mean that it became OK to throw acid on Shashikala. Even if she had campaigned on the slogan of `break the law, take bribes` and won, it still doesnot win her absolution from breaking the law and taking bribes. Would you preach instropection about fighting crime after JJ beats Karunanidhi or when Mulayam Yadav wins in UP ?

Similarly, spreading hatred against any section of Indians is against electoral law and the letter and spirit of the Constitution. For a chief minister, a party and grassroots organisations to indulge in violence against and then base a campaign for electoral office on spreading fear and hatred of , a section of Indians, violates the letter and spirit of the Constitution. The fact that they won doesnot change that.

Those fighting on both sides of these elections are being projected to have a perception that the letter and spirit of the Constitution is an electoral liability. Just like spreading the perception after any vote in Tamil Nadu (or Uttar Pradesh) to give the impression that only law breakers, (and in UP murderers and kidnappers) can win elections.

Now either we work to dispel this perception or we don`t.

``muslims in India need to introspect``

Why only Muslims, why donot you mention Hindus as well? How would you as a Hindu like to be asked to instropect after 1000 innocent Hindus got killed and Hindu women and children got raped and killed?

re:#215 by sadna
I do not know where you got the idea that i favor the VHP/RSS ideology or that i support the violence unleashed by these fundamentalist elements. However, despite all the outcry by the English press, the common man in gujarat has supported Modi`s agenda. The question is : is this something unique about Gujarat or is this something we are going to see all over the country.
I was trying to make a point that muslims in India need to introspect. Why are they unable to integrate with the majority community?
In a research done by an American Indian researcher (Prof Varshney) for US Institute of Peace on riots in India, some findings were significant. He found that most riots happened in certain big cites, not necessarily the ones with a big muslim population. Where riots did not happen, he found that muslims and hindus seem to forge a close interaction thr` community work. Best insurance against riots was to forge a common bond by encouraging participation in community work, thereby establishing trust.
I quote here his findings (url: http://www.usip.org/oc/newsroom/es20021114.html
``In examining the relationships and social structures within multiethnic societies, Varshney argued that research has shown that the viability of intra- and interethnic social networks has played an important role in how susceptible the society has been to lethal communal riots. More specifically, Varshney pointed out that his research indicates that societies without strong interethnic social structures were more prone to ethnic violence.

Elaborating upon the importance of interethnic social structures in defusing ethnic tensions, Varshney noted that both formal organized associations (such as professional associations or unions) and informal or neighborhood-level associations (such as book or sports clubs) tend to be helpful. However, he stressed that his research has found that more formal organized social structures appear to be able to better withstand ethnic tensions. He also found that these types of organization not only provided for stronger personal and professional bonds between individuals in different ethnic groups, but also provided for important informal channels of interethnic communication.``

Muslims in India are not visible in areas other than arts (cinema, music etc). We do not find them interacting closely with other communites. While one simplistic answer would be: they are discriminated, the reality is they have shut themselves off. They do not send their children to public schools or govt run schools for fear of being hinduised. Thus, an opportunity for a muslim boy to interact and understand the majority community is lost right in the beginning. Madrassa education gives muslim children free education but not enough skills to compete with others. Result: muslims do not make it as doctors, engineers etc in big numbers. This results in alienating them and making them prey to the voices of hatred spewn forth by Syed Bukhari and his ilk.
If muslims want India to be secular, they have to help secular elements by giving up their self-imposed seclusion and joining the mainstream.
Sridhar

#220 by pennathur on December 19, 2002 10:40am PT
well said pennathur...we all know the facts of our history..how hindus were treated when pakistan was formed. Atrocious!!!!

If Pakistanis think they are less of religious fanatics than Indians or they think they are as much as or more secular than Indians....or if they are trying to proove that India pretends to be a secular country whilte it is not then I would love to see a Hindu Prime Minister in Paksitan.

#183 by rsaxena on December 17, 2002 8:34am PT
...why are so many pakistanis gloating over gujarat...it`s like a bunch of makkhis hovering over a dead bird....

& all this while a hyena licks her chops...

For those who wonder how ``educated`` Indians can support the VHP - have you wondered how ``educated`` people like Jinnah turned into blood-thirsty hounds on Direct Action Day when the streets of Bengal ran red with the blood of Hindus. Or the Partition when over a period of months the Hindu proportion of Pakistan declined from about 20% to 3% and to the now less than 1%. An oft repeated argument by India`s loony lefty and chamcha socialists (like Mani Shankar Iyer) is how a `fundamentalist` party like the BJP in India has a significant share of votes while fundamentalist parties in Pakistan have always polled insignificant numbers. The absurdity and ignorance behind this argument is appalling. Pakistan is an Islamic State founded for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent (never mind that ancestors of 140 million of them have turned their backs on it resolutely 55 years ago and have never regretted the decision). Islamic theocracy underlies the institutuinal framework of Pakistan. A non-Muslim can`t hold positions of power by law (or any other way either). The armed forces are wedded to the concept of jihad and gallantry awards are given away to soldiers ``who have despatched the kafir/infidel to jahannum`` and/or earned jannat for themselves. All this is just for starters. So in this situation the theocratic attitude is just one of degree. All parties in Pakistan are inherently theocratic and are (for the sake of argument) different shades of the BJP. So whicever party rules in Pakistan - the nation-state continues to be a theocratic one where non-Muslims are 2nd class citizens as per the traditional Islamic statecraft. In countries like Saudi Arabia the policy is followed to its extreme - in Pakistan it is followed in degrees. In Bangladesh it is fast developing into a mini-Saudi after the December 2001 pogrom against Hindus.

Ref ferozk #217

[Re: Harimau
Congrats! You have proved my point! I knew you would not disappoint me!]

I am glad to be of service and delighted that I met your expectations.

If you noticed, I didn`t say anything about ``the obnoxious behavior of some muslims in India``. That would be, in my opinion, a codeword.

On the other hand, I still haven`t gotten a name for The Muslim Girl or The Muslim Tea Vendor from our fearless journalist FarceAnna.

When I pointed out back in March that Narendra Modi was encouraging the anti-Muslim violence to stay in office, I was roundly condemned for SUPPORTING him. Now the same folks are blaming the poor benighted Hindoos for voting him back into power with an overwhelming majority. Some political analysis!

If you have the opportunity, visit the Jefferson Monument in Washington, DC. And read and remember his statement about maintaining eternal enmity over all forms of tyranny over Man`s MIND.

And by the way, Jinnah is GRRRRRREEEEEAT!

rsridhar #213

How about the obnoxious behaviour of the VHP and Bajrang Dal? First they demolish a mosque, then they indulge in riots then they threaten to `repeat` the Gujarat `formula` and make India a `Hindu rashtra`. Do you mean I can go and kill Togadia and other Hindus for being anti-India as long as I take an angry mob along?

Aren`t you repeating the very same arguments used to excuse the train burning?


ROmair
Let me quote for you Qazi Hussain of Jamaat-I-Islami, a person whose candidature for Prime Minister I seem to remember you and many Pakistanis frequently express support for:

``..an excerpt from an interview with Nawabzada Nabiullah Khan of the Jamaat-I-Islami of Pakistan, published in the February 1999 issue of the Jamhooria Islamia, a Baluchi magazine. Khan is quoting the views of Qazi Hussain Ahmed, head of the JI, which has captured a large number of seats in the Pakistani `elections` held recently. The entire interview, as a window into the mindset of an Islamist, is most instructive. And shows a remarkable world view.

What kind of government that JI envisages for Pakistan?

It will be the Sharia government. Sharia will be made our constitution so that the eminent Muslim scholars who had completed the schooling in madrassas will be appointed as the judges in every court. Qazi wanted to make the presidium on the same model as the Khalifa. Presently our ideas is that the entire top leadership of JI as well as all three military generals will be part of the presidium for which the Qazi will be the Kalifa.

We are keenly watching the progress of Taliban and learning from it. We are impressed with the Taliban on the women issue, minorities issue and law and order issue. Mullah Omar is a great friend of Qazi. Omar had visited his house many times. In the tentative talks, we had decided to form union of Pakistan and Afghanistan once the right conditions are set in Pakistan (ie the JI government in Pakistan). Our motto is Constant Jihad.

The idea is to keep Pakistan in a constant state of Jihad all the time. Qazi`s vision is that Pakistan will be centre of the new Islamic empire that stretches from Burma to Afghanistan and from Sri Lanka to Tajikistan including Kashmir. Towards that end, Jamaat will use all tactics from terrorism in the kafir- controlled areas to negotiations in the Muslim-controlled areas. Already the Jamaat leaders of Bangladesh and Jamaat leaders of India had accepted the primacy of Pakistani leadership in this regard...``

(end quote)


I wonder why Pakistanis donot come out in the streets against Qazi Hussain and JI/JUI/JUP? Instead they voted these folks into power in two provinces. Togadia can be accused to trying to overthrow the Indian Constitution and subvert the Indian state, what can Qazi Hussain be accused of when he supports jihad and an Islamic state?

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Re: Harimau

Congrats! You have proved my point! I knew you would not disappoint me!

Ciao

American Express 203:

You have a point. Godhra may have been enginnered, we just don`t know by who. It could well be Muslim organizations whose agenda is much bigger than Gujarat, as in the case of the temple attack that followed.

[ #207 by pennathur on December 18, 2002 10:32pm PT
Now that the Gujarat elections are over supervised by yet another tough as nails Election Commissioner (not some two-bit Brigadier or Lance Naik in khaki); the results must be expected. ]

Tough as nail EC, but according to Shenoy in following link he has unwitting helped in election result so completely in favour of Modi. And I agree with Shenoy. Well meaning but overzealous EC can influence elections wrong way.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/16flip.htm

-ew

re:#190 by sri
Your points about obnoxious behavior of some muslims in India is true. Such elements exist in every community.
Above all, it is the ``ghetto mentality`` displayed by ordinary muslims in India (and here i do not include many educated and successful muslims) that causes so much rift between the 2 communities. When muslims cheer Paki cricketers or bemoan the loss of prestige they once had (when muslims ruled hindus!), they are trying to recreate a past which they think was glorious and which they sorely miss. In this, muslims are different from hindus. Even a poor muslim somehow feels connected to the Mughal rulers in a spiritual and emotional sense. Such kinship is lacking among hindus.
When such ``ghetto mentality`` becomes a favourite past-time, it becomes a problem. That is where most Indian muslims (at least the ones in the north) stand. They are unwilling to integrate with the majority community for fear of losing their culture. Such fears are neither fact-founded nor reason-grounded. Muslims should emulate Parsees. Here is a community that has not only successfully integrated with the rest of India but also kept its distinct culture and religion alive. It has produced successful businessmen, scientists, artists the like of which few communities can boast of. Yet, this community is loved by all hindus. What is their secret? In an answer to this question lies, perhaps, the solution to the problems of muslim community in India.

Sridhar

Now that the Gujarat elections are over supervised by yet another tough as nails Election Commissioner (not some two-bit Brigadier or Lance Naik in khaki); the results must be expected. To talk of rigging is probably displaying lunacy and/or idiocy! The Congress and its chamchas (which includes all parties except the BJP and the leftists) have always followed a divide and rule policy wrt the Hindus. Since caste divisions have remained a serious problem within the Hindu fold. The BJP/RSS/VHP as well as the Shiv Sena have worked hard to dissolve caste divisions for years while the `secular` press from its airconditioned armchairs has hurled epithet after foul epithet and called them all sorts of names. The Sena in any case has always been a anti-upper caste party as Bal`s father Prabodhankar Thackeray was anti-brahmin much in the same way as the early Justice Party stalwarts of Tamil Nadu; and a mentor of the Raja of Kolhapur who introduced reservations in his State in the 20s. The BJP/RSS/VHP have long ago abandoned the upper caste anchors and are today the most egalitarian outfits in India. This it has done with a vengeance in order to draw the widest possible crowd into its folds. In UP the one time BJP stalwart Kalraj Mishra a brahmin gave way to Kalyan Singh a Lodh (same as Uma Bharati) who in turn when he rebelled was thrown out into the wilderness and replaced by the fiery Vinay Katiyar. The way the party has allied with Mayawati of the BSP and forged a successful alliance with the Dalits has completely ruffed Mulayam Singh from without and within. In Gujarat the party has made deep inroads among the weaker sections of society and several Dalits and `tribals` today occupy positions of power in the party. The violence in Dangs in 1998 actually began with an aggressive campaign by Christian groups to oust the VHP from the district. A group of miscreants ran amok and defiled a Hanuman shrine. A newly converted Christian whose family owned that land with this shrine then ``gave away`` the temple to his Church who then systematically pulled down the temple. This naturally sparked violence and the usual retribution. The Gujarat Samachar carried reports of these incidents for over six months and attempts of the district administration to bring peace. The English press got into the act very late and promptly manufactured the ``crisis and riot``. The incidents are well documented. Instead of accepting the gradual failure of its divide and rule policy the Congress and to a large extent the `secular press` keeps inventing these demons of `majoritarianism` and ``Hindutvaisation`` and other such claptrap. While an integration of Hindu society isn`t going to happen overnight - it will slowly but surely. There are big hurdles to be crossed and the progress is there for everyone to see. Musharaff by rubbishing the Gujarati in the UN touched a raw nerve. The Guju may be a crass business-minded sharp who isn`t bothered about things like pride etc. and only wants to make a fast buck. That could well be wrong. This election has shown up the futility if trying to play with Hindu sentiments.

Following is an interesting article, quoted in the Pakistan Daily Times, from the Indian Hindu newspaper:

From the statements of the VHP (sister wing of BJP - under the parentage of RSS) leader, it seems the RSS/VHP/BJP want the following:

1. ``The Muslims here will enjoy the same place or status as Hindus enjoy in Pakistan, maybe even slightly better status``

While the status of Hindus in Pakistan isn`t great, it is better than the status of Muslims in Gujrat. So I don`t know if the VHP leader wants to improve the status of Indian Muslims or destroy it.

2. ``as for Pakistan, the VHP was in favour of “dismembering” it,``

This is now impossible for India to do, in a nuclear scenario. The recent retreat, after piling up of forces, by India proves this. The only thing that can disintegrate Pakistan are domestic issues. I think the chance of India disintegrating it, without being destroyed itself, are next to none.

3. “All Hindutva opponents will get the death sentence and we will leave it to the people to carry this out,” he said.

This is scary, since I am an opponent of Hinduvta also. How exactly will the VHP carry it out?

4. ``Hindutva agenda — Ram temple at Ayodhya, anti-conversion law throughout the country, a common civil code, abrogation of Article 370 of the Constitution which gives a special status to Jammu and Kashmir, deportation of all Bangladeshi intruders and a statute for cow protection.``

The first and fourth will lead to a lot more violence. They have already lead to a lot of violence.

5. ``They had described the Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, as ‘khalnayak’ (villain) but the people saw him as a hero. ``

This is actually true. Modi has emerged as a people`s hero in Gujrat. He and his party kicked butt in the recent elections.

I am truly amazed at how otherwise reasonable Indians can support the RSS/VHP/BJP trioka (the three are one and the same thing). People keep saying, on this site, that the BJP is an extremist fringe element. They are in a state of denial, because it isn`t. It is the most popular party in India, i.e. more Indians like it, than any other group. What surprises me is that there are super-tech well educated Indian entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley who support it, and even send money to the BJP. There are Indian lawyers, engineers, doctors etc. who support it. I believe the actor Shatru Sinha holds a very senior position in it. Vinod Khanna is a senior member. I think (not sure) that Hema Malani is a member also. If the artists of a country start supporting an extremist party, than it is a true indication that the party is fully in the mainstream.

So I would like to ask all our Indian friends: What the hell is going on? Other than Arundhati Roy, I haven`t seen too many Indians come out on the streets, against the BJP. I get the feeling that if the BJP were to make India grow economically, most of the anti-BJP Indians would start tolerating it also.

How can a country like India, with 24 million Christians and 140 million Muslims (too small a number to have huge political clout, but too large a number to be easily suppressed) spread out all over the country, not have its social fabric ripped apart, if the BJP keeps going on for another decade or two.

Maybe, the bandwidth of our Indian friends would be better spent if they targeted all their abuse towards what the BJP is doing to India than what Pakistan is doing to India. Since Pakistan is too small to do much to India, but the BJP is going to put India into a civil war.

``Hindutva opponents to get death: VHP

By Neena Vyas

NEW DELHI: The Vishwa Hindu Parishad has warned of a “storm ahead which was not going to be limited to Gujarat” and indicated clearly that its next target would be five States — Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Delhi — where it is gearing up to spread the “Hindutva” ideology.

Praveen Togadia, VHP secretary-general, told the press here this evening what in his view constituted the important ingredients of Hindutva. “The Muslims here will enjoy the same place or status as Hindus enjoy in Pakistan, maybe even slightly better status,” he said. And as for Pakistan, the VHP was in favour of “dismembering” it, reminding everyone that “fundamentalism and extremism cannot be finished till Pakistan is dismembered.”

Muslims alone were not the target of his ire. All those who opposed Hindutva, and this certainly included secularists, would get the “death sentence” he declared. But the VHP would not have to carry out the sentence, the people would. “All Hindutva opponents will get the death sentence and we will leave it to the people to carry this out,” he said.

“Abhimanyu is not yet dead”, Mr. Togadia said. “The Mahabharat will be fought in Delhi”, he said perhaps talking about the Lok Sabha elections due in 2004.

He spelt out the Hindutva agenda — Ram temple at Ayodhya, anti-conversion law throughout the country, a common civil code, abrogation of Article 370 of the Constitution which gives a special status to Jammu and Kashmir, deportation of all Bangladeshi intruders and a statute for cow protection. It was not a coincidence that all of this is part of the well-known and declared agenda of the RSS as well as the BJP. In fact, Mr. Togadia patted the BJP. “In Gujarat, the BJP has come back to its own agenda, the Gujarat election has shown the right direction to the BJP.”

Prior to 1989, the BJP itself was a “political untouchable,” but that was not the case now, the coalition National Democratic Alliance Government was proof of this. However, even after the NDA took birth the BJP’s Hindutva agenda remained “untouchable”. Mr. Togadia and the VHP would set that right. It had already been set right in Gujarat where “our Hindutva agenda has become touchable (acceptable),” he argued.

Gujarat had, in fact, “finished the credibility of the secularists”. They had described the Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, as ‘khalnayak’ (villain) but the people saw him as a hero. Those who had said that the VHP belonged to the ‘lunatic fringe’ were wrong. “I have moved centre-stage, and they (secularists) have become the impotent fringe.”

He had addressed 60 meetings during the election campaign, and he need not remind Mr. Modi what the VHP expected of him. “He knows it well, he will not forget.” —The Hindu (www.dailytimes.com.pk)

Ref Urstruly #149

[The election of Hindu religious nuts can either be wrong or it can be right.....it can`t be right and wrong at the same time. So if hindus support the election of their government they should do so without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims and if they do not support the election of hindu religious nuts they should do it without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims.]

Okay, Jinnah is great!

[Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside.]

I guess the (Hindu) hooligans inside the train also managed to lock it from outside so that they cannot escape from the fire. All in the service of Lord Ram, I suppose. Or, do you think it is a Zionist conspiracy and the Jews managed to roast the Hindus alive and blamed it on the Muslims? By the way, do you believe that Mossad warned 4,000 Jews working at the World Trade Center to stay away from work on Sept 11, 2001?

By the way, the trains in India have bars on their windows so nobody can slip out of the train or enter it except through the doors.

[Let us also not forget the Muslim woman who was forced into the boggey by the hooligans, which actually prompted the stone throwing match.]

In case you haven`t read my posts, I have NOT forgotten the Muslim Girl, who has been nameless for the past 10 months now, daughter of the Muslim Tea Vendor at the Godhra train station, who is also nameless but has attained mythic status as simple the Muslim Tea Vendor. Did the Muslim Girl die in the fire? Was she miraculously rescued by either the crowd or by the Angel Gibreel? How come whether it is FarceAnna Versey or Chandrasekhar of the New York Times (a good Hindu name, in case you don`t know it) haven`t been able to identify either the Muslim Girl or the Muslim Tea Vendor? At least Chandrasekhar can claim that he went off to cover more important stories after printing hearsay but how about our Fearless Heroine FarceAnna? She lives a couple of hundred miles from Ahmedabad and Godhra, has no qualms about putting a bindi on her forehead to hide her Islamic identity, and could very well have investigated the identity of The Muslim Girl and The Muslim Tea Vendor.

And yes, Jinnah is great!

Ref irfan_h #150

[One of the most gruesome accounts was that about the death of Kausar Bano, a pregnant woman of Naroda Patiya. She was raped, tortured, her womb was slit open with a sword; her foetus was torn out, hacked to pieces and burnt alive with its mother]

Please write this up in either JAMA as a new medical fact or in some religious magazine as expounding the power of Allah.

The foetus survived after being torn out of the uterus and thus deprived of its supply of oxygen through the umbilical cord, survived the trauma of being hacked to pieces so that it can be burnt ALIVE?

Now you know why I don`t believe in newspaper reports.

Ref 12-Head #161

[Vote for bigotry
Arab News Editorial 16 December 2002

If the election that has just taken place in Gujarat, where the BJP has been re-elected by a landslide, had happened in Europe or elsewhere in the West, there would be an international outcry, with demands for a boycott of the country and that something be done about it.]

Wow! That explains why the Arabs don`t bother with elections! They want to avoid the international botcott that might arise out of their human rights practices.

ew #202
As far as I know there has been mention of only arrests in the Ehsan Jafri/Gulberg? society case. I have not seen any mention in the press of forensic investigation like in the Godhra case, nor attempts by the state to arrive at an authoritative description of the sequence of events, except during in the period just after the incident.

Unless the press pays attention, those who are really guilty will not be arrested, and those arrested will not be proceeded against with sufficient vigor much less convicted. Contrast this with the Godhra case which is already so advanced in court that you are able to quote testimony of witnesses. I don`t know if the difference is POTA process vs ordinary judicial process.

The judicial `enquiry` the Gujarat BJP mentions talks of only Godhra, not post-Godhra if I am not mistaken.

If an ordinary citizen like me is thoroughly outraged at this contrast, where the heck is the outrage in the so-called pseudo-secular media?

Another example of how justice will not be done is that though there have been arrest in connection with Naroda-Patia, one of the women named as participating/inciting the mobs in Naroda-Patia, a VHP activist has been elected MLA.

I agree all this pseudo-secular (from a `secular` point of view) handwaving by people like Arundhati Roy serves India ill. She(like many others) would rather take an opportunistic dig at her political opponents than uncover the truth.

stuka #204
From what little I know, Jaswant Singh`s fallout with RSS is more due to Reliance vs. anti-Reliance backroom politics of Delhi than any other issue. Influence of Reliance is one open-secret most people don`t seem acknowledge. Will Reliance allow Gujrat to go to the dogs when they have two huge investments there?
regards

[ #203 by AmericanExpress on December 18, 2002 1:52pm PT
...
About Arundhati Roy she was incorrect in Jaffris daughters murder b/c that was information given to her.She is not a reporter even though she can be called free lanced writer .She has feeds & incorrect feeds are expected to be challenged that doesnt make her LIAR or any other writer who is OPEN to correction as Arundhati proved her self to be.
The story of pregnant woman has been checked & found to becorrect.It may not be Jaffris daughter or not even Saeedas case but atleast one such case happened by my reading of various sources & can dig it up if you want . ]

Yes but her description of these crimes were as if she knew. She writes in the same language as if she is a serious journalist who has confidence that her facts are right. There is nothing wrong writing about events which you have learned second hand, but then you will write with caution and you will impress on the minds of reader that events being described are learnt second hand.

[Communal riots in India is not uncommon .Even if we forget Godhra ,Ahmedabad since 1967 is repeatedly in the news .The fact that even in 47 & up untill 67 Gujrat was one of the safest for muslims.Taking ascending militancy i would give more benefit of the doubt to Muslims of Gujrat than `Godhra caused Post Godhra Carnage .2000 people died `......Godhra just may have been engineered.If you think politicians would not risk 58 lives ,in the equation of loss & gain many a gujju easily would spend 58 for humungous profit of 2000! ]

Exactly like 9/11?

-ew

AlephNull:

I am aware of Jaswant Singh not being a member of the RSS. However, in terms of ideology, he is close to the RSS and in public life has defended them. His fallout with the RSS has been recent, that too because of Sudarshan`s inclination towards Swadeshi and Jaswant Singh`s preference for a free economy. This dichotomy towards economic policy has strained relationships between the BJP and the RSS since the 90s.

As far as Jaswant Singh`s worldview is concerned, he is closely aligned with the RSS. Your assertion that the RSS is suspicious of his commitment is absolutely correct, but compare him to the VHP leaders and you will see what I mean.

Stuka #200

{Currently, there is a power struggle going on in the BJP. Jaswant Singh, Advani, Vajpayee, ``the seniors`` all owe allegiance to the RSS. These are the ideology driven intellectuals. }

Stuka, Jaswant Singh may be something of an intellectual, but AFAIK he not only has never been an RSS member but has been in the bad books of the Nagpur crowd, to the extent that they nixed his name as Vajpayee`s choice for Finance Minister in 1998. Vajpayee himself has been under periodic attack from the Parivar`s right wing, presumably for being insufficiently committed to their cause. Not sure how this affects your claims of a current power struggle, though.

[ #179 by sadna on December 17, 2002 7:42am PT
...
In summary, inflammable liquid was spilled near seat 72(one end of the coach near one pair of open doors), the end adjoining S7. Thats where the fire began and spread towards the other end of the coach.

Since the fire started on the S7 side, the conclusion one can draw is that passengers couldnot use the doors on that side even though both the doors were open. On the opposite side(near S5) there was only one door open. Thats the side on which most passengers died. The coach was also heavily stoned from outside. ]

sadna, thanks for posting these links.

I am just copying last 2 paragraphs from last link:

``After inflammable material, most likely petrol, was poured inside the coach, the fire started raging from near seat number 72, which was nearest to the door. Not less than 60 litres of the inflammable material was poured into the coach, before setting it on fire.``

I am trying to do no analysis of these words. Just wanted record it on chowk pages because someone (I think urstruly) said no inflammable material was poured into S-6, which is obviously not true.

[The amount of detail about this incident which is available in the media is in stunning contrast to the total absence of detail available about the subsequent instances of Hindu mob violence, esp against Ehsan Jafri. Thats something which is totally beyond understanding and casts doubts on even the English language press.

It was one thing to keep mute to allow passions to die down and prevent further loss of life, but after these elections, such media silence will only become another reason for murderers and rapists to walk free. ]

I agree but you should not content just finding material on web to arrive your conclusion. There may be completely innocuous reason why detail is missing on web. Some of the Indian newspapers may not have storage resource to maintain archives online. If a story was published simultaneously in print also, it would be available from back issues office of the newspaper.

We certainly do not need journalists like Arundhati Roy. She gave an account of how Ehsan Jafri`s daughter was stripped and burnt alive and then later admitted that it was an error, because the daughter was not even in India! She did tender an apology but her credibility would become tarnished for ever. In another piece called ``Democracy`` she writes opening paragraph which follows:

``Last night a friend from Baroda called. Weeping. It took her fifteen minutes to tell me what the matter was. It wasn`t very complicated. Only that Sayeeda, a friend of hers, had been caught by a mob. Only that her stomach had been ripped open and stuffed with burning rags. Only that after she died, someone carved `OM` on her forehead.``

About this story I read somewhere that she wouldn`t provide information about Sayeeda to police even after requested. I can understand that she would not give her friend`s or any other source`s identity. But why not identity of person killed?

We do not need this type of journalists. We do not need cut-and-paste typist babus for journalists working from comfort of their air-conditioned offices. We need foot soldiers of journalism who go out and gather information from primary sources even at great risk of their lives.

-ew

Sadna:

Very much the latter interpretation. I would not be surprised to see the RSS go the way of the Hindu Mahasabha, the original ideological fountainhead of the ``Sangh.``

Veer Savarkar, Godse et al were all Hindu Mahasabha members, supported by Hegdewar`s RSS. Currently, there is a power struggle going on in the BJP. Jaswant Singh, Advani, Vajpayee, ``the seniors`` all owe allegiance to the RSS. These are the ideology driven intellectuals. The middle rung BJP, the prominent ones are Katiyar, Togadia etc. They owe their allegience to the VHP, not the RSS.

The Sangh Parivar may be one, but the center of power is shifting.

stuka #185
Could you elaborate? Since you bring it up, Narendra Modi a former RSS pracharak is so-called `OBC`. And how about all those brahmin Acharyas something-or-the-other roaming around as VHP members? And the fact that in central Gujarat, there was for the first time a heavy involvement of Dalits and Adivasis in the violence?

Unless you mean the caste terms `generically` and not literally , ie, the VHP is more profit-motive-oriented noncerebral Hindutva while the RSS is more ideologically-oriented intellectual Hindutva.

...it`s about time...one of the pigs is quite funny...after the death sentence was announced, he said ``If asking for liberation for Kashmir is terrorism, then I`m a terrorist.``....boohoo, someone cry him a river...

...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

{Three Sentenced to Die for Indian Parliament Raid

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 6:28 a.m. ET

NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- Three Indian men were sentenced to death Wednesday for their role in a deadly attack on Parliament that brought India to the brink of war with Pakistan.}

American Express 154
``Would TRILLIUM tell them first not to talk of GODHRA .AND before causing carnage 2000 humans STOP BRIDEBURNING & WEEP FOR THEM FIRST.``

Amex -
You bet we have to talk about Godhra.
We`re in agreement more than you know, but there are a few statements to be made which remain unrecognized:

1. Ghodra is part of a two-headed and head-splitting cycle of violence shared by Pakistan and India.
2. Ghodra is another atrocity of an ongoing religious war shared by Pakistan and India.
3. Bride Burning is a cultural problem shared by Pakistan and India.
4. Pakistan and India share strongly patriarchal societies.
5. Opposing extremist religious elements are shared by Pakistan and India and passively supported by the majority.
6. India and Pakistan claim, theoretically, democratic principles and `protection` for religious minorities.
7. Pakistan and India both have political systems governed by religious majorities.

Yeah, Amex, we have to talk about a lot of things, but the focus here seems to be beating the same Dead Horses of Godhra, Kashmir, Babri Mashid, ad infinitum, ad nauseum... at least centuries of ammunition, and now, with nuclear weapons. Political leaders who`ve brazenly and irresponsibly ignored its people`s need for infrastructure and social justice, are now to be trusted with nuclear weapons by the rest of the world. Right....

Re: Godot # 188

Yes, I have been a member of this community since 1998 and what was once a noble idea is just another misguided dream.

Ciao

It is ridiculous how hindu apologists all over india are implying that muslim massacre in Gujarat was carried out by some miscreants who have no connection with hindus. The popular argument seems to be suggesting that the RSS gangs are only a tiny fraction of hindus and are outcasts therefore worthy of being ignored. It is time to have the spine to say the truth. The reality is that the hatred for muslims is so deeply entrenched in the hearts of hindus that it only needs a small trigger to unleash.
Hindus have seen again and again that whenever there is a cricket match between pakistan and India in Indore ( or wherever in India ) there is a huge muslim youth rooting for the paki team. They have seen year after year that they cannot take out Ganesh procession in some areas in their supposedly ``free`` country while the yearly moharram procession passes of peacefully. They have seen again and again that when hindu muslim riots break out it is almost always the knife wielding muslim youth that begins the bloody carnage on unsuspecting drivers and city bus passengers in muslim localities. They have seen that muslims ghettoize themselves in to exclusive muslim neighborhoods. They have seen that muslims always complain about unfair treatment at jobs while not making any real efforts towards education. They have seen that muslims multiply like crazy and muslim sons have a standard profession of either motor cycle mechanic or a cycle repairer or a butcher at a local meat shop. They have seen that muslims really don`t have any real emotional attachment to the land that they live in while unfailingly demanding all the privileges that the land has to offer. They have seen that muslims are demanding a seccession of kashmir based exclusively on the religion and nothing else. They have seen their sons body bags coming out of Kargil mountains and thousands of kashmiri hindus killed or evicted from their ancestoral land of kashmir. They have seen that nomatter how big the appeasement may be they have to always hear the complaints from muslims.

Things don`t happen in thin air. The hatred has been brewing in hindu hearts for decades and it has shown it`s ugly head in Gujarat.

Shah ( # 189 ) :


And smartie Chap Sri is a Jew ,Christian,British,American,Dalit ,OBC (who knows he may be ilegitimate too)Serbs ...what not to know that


A classic ``expected`` answer from a Muslim apologist. Instead of answering to the point, totally deflect the topic even to the extent of questioning my legitimacy/ existence. A totally cheapest of the cheap tactic. Dear friend, if you have any questions regarding my identity, you can look up my posts on Chowk for the past 3 or 4 years. I think you will find one of my posts seriously bashing brahmins. I am a dalit from india and proudly tell it to anybody who asks me about my roots.

PS: Does your thickhead ever wonder that why dalits had so much anger on muslims in Gujarat. Now don`t give me the standard bull that hindus tricked them in to it. That suggests that dalits are these dumb idiots who can`t figure out things for themselves ( and very racist argument too ).

Harpo,

Throw a few tomatoes and rotten eggs for me too will ya!

MBenzEnglish, I happened to check your profile and saw NOT to my surprise that out of 18 posts 5 of your posts were rejected. I started reading the 13 published, but this strange thing happened, my head started spinning and I got the headache of my life. Anyways bro whatever you`re smoking, share man!

Urstruly #163. I was debating whether or not to educate you on the origins of the 12 o` clock joke. It has something to do with Nadir Shah, Abdali...heroes of yours are they? Anyways, I decided NOT! No sense in debating with a moron.

Farzana,

Like always, you’ve stroked the flames. And you make it sound like the blaze will continue for a longer time.

Some Indians on this board need to seriously look at their outbursts toward you. When there is a tragedy it has to cause introspection at least. Not these outbursts of finger pointing at others. Even if others intentionally start to mock.

Even though Pakistan has had it’s share of sectarian crimes, what seems like happening in Gujrat sounds far worse. Maybe cause the scale is larger or that we’re actually seeing the fascist Hindus go for the kill and succeeding in the name of democracy. The fascists have the state machinery at their disposal to wreck havoc with lives. And no one can stop them. Not even the secular credentials of the state. BJP is a fascist fundo fuks paradise!


PS) Modi looks like the twin brother of a serial killer in Lahore who a couple of years ago was caught having kidnapped over 100 kids, sodomized them and then diluted them in acid. The resemblance between Modi and the serial killer is striking in more ways then one!

I feel sick to my stomach after reading these comments here. All of you are wondering that how all that is hapening could happen, but have you all seen onto yourselves. Have you ever wondered how much hate you guys and gals have toward each other. Shame on all of you...
You think you can ever solve this problem of hate killing by hate, no way. you are the problem yourself. I am a new comer to Chowk, but it seems like I wont be able to stay here longer, `cos you people make me sick and make me believe that there is no solution to the Pakistan India problem as long as a single Pakistani or Indian is alive.
I hope for a peaceful future, but realistically speaking I dont see one in near future...

Harpreet, #176

Yes, Harpreet, just like you, I will defend a friend what come may. Having said that, I will start condemning Urstruly for his off-the-cuff remarks the day hateful posts by Hindus are condemned at Chowk.

As you have noticed, thanks to mostly Hindu posters, Chowk has failed as a civil gathering. They have polluted an otherwise noble attempt to discuss serious South Asian issues. It is a sad commentary on the Hindu civilization, as represented at Chowk. Little these Hindus know that they represent the mindset of their civilization at Chowk. Gujrat has proven, and perhaps now entire India is going to prove (I`m hoping not), how ``civil`` the ancient ``civilization`` is. We at Chowk have already experienced that.

You are a very noble, decent, and a thoughtful person. I consider you a good friend. And I will defend you what come may. Here`s to your health.

Btw, that little story of yours is not offensive at all. It just goes to show how sick a person can get in his hate.


Feroz, #175

Dear friend,

Well said. However, no matter how ``fascinating`` the study of hate is, there is nothing fascinating about the damage it does to those who are victim of it.

As for Chowk becoming a place to post hate rather than using this site to bridge the gap and developing an understanding and friendship between two people...well, you have been around at Chowk long enough to have seen it all and know how great and noble an idea it was, which in fact worked quite wonderfully in the beginning...alas...


pmishra2, #174

And sort of like Abraham Lincoln providing Martin Luther King a certificate of freedom...

You get the idea. The one thing that is most amusing about you is the clarity and consistency of your silly statements.

Btw, I am totally flattered that you give so much weight to my certification. And you are right about me. I am no slouch.


Lucy, #171

Lucy dear (yes, you are a sweetheart even if you don`t like me...and no sarcasm intended),

In fact, yes I did register. Willfully and gladly, I made the INS completely and thoroughly investigate me even though I had been an American citizen for a very long time. I make sure that I tell everyone I come from Pakistan. In my very Waspish Company, I am probably the only Pakistani, and everyone who knows me knows that, including the CEO who asked me very curiously where I was from.

I am a model American citizen. I represent everything that is good about Muslims and about America. This country loves people like me. You know, a very wise man from deep American South who had traveled the world over and knew me quite well once told me, and I quote, ``I wish all immigrants to this country were like you.``

Hope this satisfies your query.

Love ya sweetie,

Godot

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I really don`t have time for a lengthy post so I will make this short. I would a like a honest answer from muslims here ... If hindus hate you, dalits hate you ( include me ), other backward castes ( OBCs ) hate you, sikhs hate you, Serbs hate you, Russians hate you, jews hate you, british hate you ( remember Oldham ? ), americans hate you then there may be something fundamentally wrong with the way muslims conduct themselves OR do you guys say that the fault lies with everyone else but muslims.

- thanks for thoughtful answers
Sri

None of you understand the true significance of the BJP victory in Gujarat. It is not the victory of the Hindu over the Muslim or the communal over the secular.

The election results signify the ascendancy of the Baniyas of the VHP over the Brahmins of the RSS.

...why are so many pakistanis gloating over gujarat...it`s like a bunch of makkhis hovering over a dead bird....

Shah

{{If Congress learns that one lesson, then something worthwhile will have come out of this appalling result. India needs an opposition party that works. At the moment it does not have one. Congress — in many people’s minds, still tainted by corruption and wedded to red tape and government control — is the nearest thing to an institutionalized political vacuum that India has ever seen. It has to start coming up with coherent ideas and a leader who is not just keeping the seat warm until her children are ready to take over. Otherwise, the BJP will continue in office no matter how much violence it stirs up}}

- That will never happen while the spawn of the devil Sonia Gandhi has her talons on the steering wheel, condemning India to a slow death all for the sake of keeping her wretched brood in power. For her and her cabal, India only exists to be ruled by their family for eternity. The Congress party is the natural home for the eunuchs of India, and they all surround and supplicate the Gandhi family like a bunch of slavering sycophantic leeches. Yes, thats right, after sixty years of independance, great writers, academics, great minds, nobel winning scientists, innovative business leaders, commited social activists, one billion people, the Congress party has been unable to unearth a single leader of vision or talent that is better suited for the job t