The Unmaking Of Gujrat

Talking about the muslim heart.
I just fail to understand what these muslim guys and gals want out of life.wherever in the world they are not in a majority they fail to adjust and live with others.now everybody but the muslim could not be at fault for this right?
Take muslim minorities with christians.USA, Russia,France,former Yugoslavia.They are just not willing to live in peace.no sir, we cannot live with kafirs can we?we want our own damn islamic republic or a kinghdom or dictatorship which would be even better.
Muslims with jews.Better not talk about it.
Musims with hindus.India has been ravaged by their rampant population explosion, backwardness and a rigidity to change.
now it seems they have a spat coming up with buddhists in sri lanka and china.
they had already displaced the zoarastrians from iran ages back.
what next?
Beware, the Lapps of finland.do not allow muslims into your midst or we could see some kind of terrorist activitity in scandidavia too!!!

Ref ali87 #261

That part about ``...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long.... `` is a quote from rsaxena. I was responding to his post by quoting him first.

When are you going to learn to read?

#248 by harimau on December 22, 2002 9:33am PT
...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

So your Idea of free will and democracy similar to the reaction of pakistan in the case of bangladesh...

Great!!

Your Idea of treason is similar to the medvial age where the kings held areas wether people liked it or not.

If APHC asks for the blood of the likes of you then they are entirely justified.

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rsridhar miaN:

uzzrey gunaah bud tur uz gunnah...

``where I am concerned, Hindutva goons get nothing except the noose or hard labor for life.`` -- not the muslims -- rsridhar miaN

rsridhar # #
After reading just a little of the Concerned Citizen`s Panel Report on the post-Godhra riots, where I am concerned, Hindutva goons get nothing except the noose or hard labor for life.

re:#255 by AmericanExpress
I have, in my earlier post, alluded to a research study that shows riots do not happen when the 2 communities forge a close relationship at work place. No political party can succeed in creating riots if the 2 communities have already forged a close nexus.
Hindus in India are by and large peace loving. Riots like Gujarat have happened since 1947. What makes Gujarat different is that, for the first time, a fundamental ideology has been used crudely and openly to garner votes.
You depict the same mentality as the muslims in India when you say this is muslim vs hindu equation. If it is so, there is not much hope for the muslims. The debate ranging among the hindu community is : what is the real meaning of secularism? BJP has given its own meaning and calls secularism of Congress, practised so far, as pseudo-secularism. Increasing number of hindus are now taking the BJP view. Congress, which had been a safe haven for minorities since independence, has failed today. The question to ask is: why is this happening? Has all this something to do with the general image of muslims the world over? Why are increasing number of average, peaceloving hindus hating muslims?

Instead of saying what i have said, i will paste Dr Rafiq Zakaria`s views from his book ``Communal Rage in Secular India (Popular Prakashan, Mumbai)`` which i read in Arvind Lavakare`s column in Rediff(url: http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/17arvind.htm).
His views on ``what the Indian muslims must do`` are as follows:
Beginning of quote:

1. ``Muslims must try and become an integral part of the mainstream... they must whole-heartedly co-operate in enriching composite nationalism which continues to be our pride... they must get out of their ghetto mentality, break the barriers of alienation and generate a harmonious environment.``

2. ``They should do some introspection and ask whether they have genuinely tried to contribute to the strengthening of Hindu-Muslim relations since Partition. The answer will be no.``

3. ``Indian Muslims must open their eyes to the ground reality that an increasing number of Hindus have begun to hate them... This is not confined to a small section; it has infected the rich as much as the poor; men as much as women; the young as much as the old; even children are no longer free from it.``

4. ``This is the ugly reality that Muslims have to face in today`s India. They have to do their best to bring about a change in the hostile attitude of the communal Hindus towards them. This is as much in their interest as that of the nation. Muslims continue to live in a make-believe world of their own. Their leaders waste their energies in playing games, whipping up emotions, and bringing more trouble to the ordinary Muslims.`
`Their self-serving leaders, with utter disregard to the aftermath of Partition, remained oblivious to their miserable decline and continued to behave with incredible arrogance, exhibiting a sense of false bravado by their loud utterances; they take out protest marches at the slightest pretext, hold demonstrations, shout slogans, demand justice and fair play but all this never gives any relief to the community... They fail to understand that by voicing meaningless grievances, asking for unrealistic rights, wailing, fretting and fuming, the leaders may gain some publicity but the community loses a great deal. They quote the Constitution and demand the implementation of this provision or that, guaranteed to the minorities but none of it gives Muslims the required protection; even democracy is ranged heavily against them because under it numbers count.``

5. ``Have these leaders and their hold on different sections of Muslims ever been tested? Have their credentials been verified? Their uncompromising and rigid attitude on every occasion has only weakened Hindu-Muslim relations further.
Instead of coming out openly against Pakistan and taking a strong stand against the jihadis, these so-called guardians of Indian Muslims spend most of their time in running their own political shops to buttress their communal leadership.
None of these leaders visit villages so they are unaware of the fallout of their actions on the poor and hapless who live in the remote parts of the country.``

6. ``Indian Muslims must now see the light of day and move in a different direction which will take them forward and not backward. They must discard their worn-out prejudices and outmoded habits and adjust themselves to the requirements of the changing times. They must give up asking for doles which will only cripple them. In order to survive, they must learn to stand on their own feet. For the fact is that they have no true friends; many of those who show them sympathy or consideration are not sincere. They do so only to obtain some electoral gain. This has been proved time and time again.``

7. ``Muslims rely on India`s commitment to secularism, but it has not proved to be of much help. Nor have Muslims of other countries ever come to their rescue.``

8. ``To succeed, Indian Muslims must boldly come forward to undergo an all-round transformation in their style of functioning. If they neglect or fail to do so…they will be ruined.
They will succeed if parents shed their old habits, give up their outdated notions, and encourage and help their sons and daughters to get the best of education. Merit alone will give them reward; they must never seek patronage.``

9. ``Indian Muslims must disown the bigotism which has made Muslims pariahs everywhere. They must... give to the non-Muslims the assurance that their religion stands for `live and let live.` The orthodox clerics who shut themselves from the world must not be allowed to lock the Muslims.`
`They must, without compromising the Quranic injunctions, agree to the introduction of certain much-needed, essential changes in their Personal Law, particularly the enactment of monogamy. There is, in fact, enough scope under the Shariah to amend the laws relating to marriage, divorce, dower and even maintenance... .Ijtihad, (independent thinking) which was freely used by the classical jurists in the past, needs to be exercised by the present generation much more today.``

10. ``The issue of Babri Masjid must be amicably resolved; instead of talking it over with responsible elements among the Hindus, confrontation was adopted to press the point. This gave rise to more hatred against the Muslims. ... What have the Muslim leaders really gained by mounting agitation after agitation?
The controversy on the singing of Vande mataram by Muslims is also meaningless. It was sung by all Muslim leaders, belonging to the Congress, during the freedom struggle... Those Muslims who do not want to sing it, may not but they must stand up when it is sung as a mark of respect to an anthem which has a hoary past and is declared as a national song in the Constitution. Why add hurt to an already worsening inter-communal relationship?``

11. ``Hindus are piqued by the fact that Muslims are multiplying fast, much more than Hindus. The Census figures, decade after decade, confirm it... communal Hindus are, by and large, convinced that polygamy results in an increased rate of growth of people. It is, therefore, not in the interest of Indian Muslims to persist with it... Then there is the question of family planning, on which much of our progress depends; it cannot be denied that Muslims have not taken to it as seriously as the Hindus; this has to be corrected... .There is no truth in the allegation that Islam prohibits family planning.``

12. ``There must be a real awareness among Indian Muslims that they have to gird up their loins and prepare for reconciliation with Hindus on the basis that each respects the religious and cultural conventions, traditions and sentiments of the other.``
End of quote.

All that is pretty soul searching, isn`t it? When i see Shahi Imam addressing a huge gathering and preaching hatred, i get the feeling that muslims, instead of forging ties with the majority, are heading for a confrontation with them.
Sridhar

re:#245 by sadna
Sadna,
I agree with the spirit of your letter. Yes, the fundamentalists need to be crushed. But, how do you crush them when they are gathering in numbers every day? Their new slogan is terrorism. Very crudely, Modi sought to equate terrorism with Musharraf and by implication, all muslims in the subcontinent. When day in and day out common man sees pictures of terrorism on TV, Modi`s task becomes all the more easier. How does one confront such a man?
You have to bring him to a different plane where he is ineffective. Whatever ways are available to strengthen secularism should be tried.
Giving up claim of Babri masjid by muslims will not embolden fundamentalists. It will throw them completely off the track. The fund of good will that will pour out will immensely benefit muslims and secularism. In military parlance, this is a kind of ``tactical retreat``.
Having said all that, i do not for a moment, think this is going to happen. Babri masjid is an emotional issue with muslims and they are not going to give it up. The big question is: are they serving any good cause by just prolonging a fight that has no end in sight? I still think my idea is better.
Sridhar

re:#246 by ferozk
I do not think all this in terms of muslims versus hindus. This is secularism vs fundamentalism. Muslims are not fighting hindus. Their fight is against some fundamentalist hindus. There is a huge difference between the two.
India is not a Nazi country tho` we have to tolerate nazi- like characters like Modi. Muslims in India are not facing a holocaust. The last time i checked, they still have all their fundamental rights intact. How they exercise these rights will determine their future and the future of secular India. My contention is, instead of making it into a hindu vs muslim thing, muslims in India should reach out to secular hindus, christians, sikhs, etc and confront this new monster with all strength.
Sridhar

re:#244 by nasah
BJP has milked the Babri Masjid issue to the last drop. There is nothing in it for BJP anymore, politically speaking. That is why, Babri masjid was a non-issue during Gujarat elections. BJP has found a better and more potent (and by implication, a more fundamentalist) slogan viz terrorism. It is equating Islam and muslims with terrorism, all in one sweep.
Whereas common man is unaware of the political brinkmanship at the highest level (note how, after condemning Modi, Vajpayee attended his swearing in ceremony), he is easily swayed by communal rhetoric.
Babri Masjid is not functioning as a masjid anymore. No namaaz has been held there for quite sometime. The matter is with court but court is unlikely to give a clearcut verdict in favor of muslims. It is hard for any court to decide on such matters. At best, the decision will be a compromise, leaving both sides unhappy.
This was the reason why i said it would be a good idea if muslims can give up their claim on the mosque. A fund of goodwill that will come out of this single decision will help the cause of secularism much more than anything else i can think of.
Sridhar

http://www.flonnet.com/fl1926/stories/20030103004811600.htm
If we still condone Modi and VHP after reading this, then we are not human.

The BJP/VHP etc are really very clever. If they want to only unite all Hindus, across caste barriers, I would not mind. But their campaign is against Muslims. What Indian Muslims need is their own Sangh Parivar that has grassroots organisation and committed cadres, that will work for their welfare and mobilize them peacefully. No amount of whining or becoming a votebank for the Congress or Mayawati or Mulayam will work.

``It will be a huge loss to India, Hindus and Hinduism if Indians, Muslims and Hindus agree to any settlement which gives VHP goons and their violent extortionist tactics an legitimacy(over the state) as representatives of Hindus, legitimacy which I as a Hindu have certainly not granted them.``(sadna)

Bless u betee -- jeetee raho!

Ref rsaxena #197

[...it`s about time...one of the pigs is quite funny...after the death sentence was announced, he said ``If asking for liberation for Kashmir is terrorism, then I`m a terrorist.``....boohoo, someone cry him a river...

...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

{Three Sentenced to Die for Indian Parliament Raid

NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- Three Indian men were sentenced to death Wednesday for their role in a deadly attack on Parliament that brought India to the brink of war with Pakistan.} ]

The Anti-Hindu published an editorial deploring the death sentence, completely forgetting the fact that the last time we kept people in prison as opposed to sending them to their 72 houris, we had a plane hijacked and a passenger killed and several million dollars ransom paid.

It is time to kidnap that kokscuker N. Ram and hold him hostage till the guys who conspired to shoot up the Parliament are released. If the latter doesn`t happen, my suggestion would be the swift sword of death for N. Ram.

``That is the beauty of facism and facists that they blame the victim for being victimized and ask the minority to make the majority feel protected! A pure Orwellian delight!`` (ferozk)

most aptly put --- feroz miaN

rsridhar #240
Yielding to VHP mob violence on ANY issue is like yielding to jihadis in Kashmir, a lose-lose proposition which solves nothing and only invites future grief.

Yielding to jihadis in Kashmir for example, would grant violent Islamism legitimacy as representative of Muslims aspirations, it would grant legitimacy to the use of indicriminate hate and violence, it wouldnot put an end anything, rather it would set the the stage for much worse to come from adversaries we ourselves would have strengthened. Ms. Gandhi`s wanting to save Bhutto and his country a shred of honor and dignity in 1971 is a good example of which has incurred a running cost of many Indian lives and solved nothing.

Similarly the goons of Hindutva organisations cannot be given legitimacy, they need to be crushed or moderated. They donot talk only of Ayodhya, they talk of other places too, 20,000 is the number I think. They `reclaimed` a number of places in Gujarat during the riots and for example yesterday they tried to create a fuss at Qutb Minar.

It will be a huge loss to India, Hindus and Hinduism if Indians, Muslims and Hindus agree to any settlement which gives VHP goons and their violent extortionist tactics an legitimacy(over the state) as representatives of Hindus, legitimacy which I as a Hindu have certainly not granted them. It will put Hindus and Muslims at further risk from a strengthened Hindutva movement. VHP goons represent only VHP as an organisation which owns land around the disputed site and they have no right to claim more than that. We have to wrest Hindu causes from the VHP not yield to them simply because they are willing to kill large numbers of people.

As for Modi, he is reported to have a very dictatorial style of functioning, it will be interesting to see how he manages to keep 126 MLAs happy for 5 years. As for pogroms, well in Kerala and WB CPM has held on to its vote base for many years by use of very similar tactics of grassroots intimidation, also there are Naxalite armed groups operating in a number of areas, N Ram runs a whole national newspaper sympathetic to the Chinese cause :) and we are not rushing to fly the red flag on Red Fort.

Indians must not lose nerve. We have to outlast these crises by imposing moderation on career extremists on either side. Meanwhile we must aim to create a split in the BJP, thats what I am thinking.