Gujrat - The Verdict Of God

And what is the biggest democracy in the world?

Where all the citizens have an equal opportunity to be killed!


Ah, but the equation, the mathematics, breaks down here: some have a higher opportunity to be killed than the others.

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#6 by UmerMurtaza on March 16, 2003 2:39am PT
Look people,

I gotta agree with Harimau. India is a secular country to the max. It kills everyone: Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, Hindus... it doesn`t discriminate.

Ha ha. Couldn`t resist.

Hey, here`s another joke: What do you a call a country with a population problem?

The biggest Democracy in the world.

Boom boom!

Umer M

Tipu:

``You are right Rajiv Gandhi should not have played to extremists on both sides.But you wiill agree Rajiv did that more to keep both the Hindu & muslim vote ``

Exactly. The secularists themselves never remained secular. They pandered to the Muslim fundamentalists on Sha Bano, and then to make up, allowed the Shilanayas at Ayodhya. That is the root of the divide, because themoment you start pandering to religious sentiment, there is no end to it.

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#46 by tahmed32 on March 20, 2003 7:00am PT

Looks like my post got your goat this time. Talk some sense man.

Tipu I agree with you. Tell me something, in your opinion, if the Muslim leadership had not pressurized the Rajiv Gandhi government to dismiss the supreme court ruling to dismiss the Shah Bano case, would Hindutva not have recieved the passive support it got.

Let me explain the last statement. There is a certain percentage of Hindus who hate Muslims. Those are outside the pale. The majority of Hindus, while not actually hating Muslims, feel like they had it coming. Do you think the latter Hindus were affected by the Shah Bano case?

btw, take your time and reply, but be careful about typos and such, otherwise your post becomes unreadable.

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#43 by Tipu on March 19, 2003 9:10am PT

I WOULDN`T AGREE WITH YOU THAT FEB 2002 GUJriot WAS LIKE MUMBAI ,BHOPAL ,BHAGALPUR ,ALIGARH OR ANY OTHER OF THOUSAND COMMUNAL RIOTS IN iNDIA SINCE INDEPENDENCE .THIS gujjuRIOT WAS THE FIRST TIME BOTH CENTRE &* STATE JOINED TO BLAME THE VICTIM(JAFFRI ETC.)

GUJJUriot was first time used to consolidate a quasi political cum extremists bjp with its looong tail of bajrang dal ,vishwa hindu parishad,rashtrya sewa sangh,shiv sena ,hindu maha sabha ,old jan sangh ,etc.etc.

The hatred against muslim was MANUFACTURED to garnish vote for BJP and the end result PROVES the motive & culprit UNDOuBTEDLY !!!!!!!!

My dear friend,

Nowhere did I justify the carnage that occured in Gujarat.

Everybody says you have to analyse two events of Godhra and post Godhra mutually separately. But the fact is that general population did not react that way...they indeed took the event of Godhra as almost declaration of war and went out and unjustfiably killed innocent muslims. It might not be convincing to you or me but whatever happened did happen because of reasons and Godhra was just the last straw in my opinion. These reasons or events which in certain people`s mind do justify the carnage in Gujarat shall be meanigfuly studied and understood or else we face the chance of history repeating itself.

harish_hyd #45 Like a 4 hour bollywood tragi-comedy-romantic-gangster movie, you are funny only when you dont intend to be funny.
Now run along and brag about your prithvi missiles and the sayings of General Padhamanbhavanrajagopalansrinivasanharishhydin and his million man army with Field Marshall Romair. And try not to wet your pants with joy at not having to report to INS agents.

#39 by tahmed32 on March 19, 2003 8:06am PT

(is that why you call yourself ``hyd``)

Honestly, as an Indian, I don’t think I have anything to hide. I don’t think the INS will ever knock at my doors and suspect me of being a terrorist, or even ask Indians en masse to register with the INS. OTOH, you, because of your nationality, could easily be suspected of being a terrorist, and spirited away to Guantanamo Bay. Is that why you call yourselves “t”ahmed?

[In the US you dont have mobs attacking minorities while the police look the other way and while the provincial chief minister celebrates this as an act of revenge. So spare me your morality. If you want to move yourself up a notch on the morality scale, I think you should see what this article is about (India`s in-border weaknesses) rather than trying to pass attention to ``across the border``.]

If you’re so convinced the US is so moral, why do you whine when you have to queue up at the INS registration centers to get yourselves registered and fingerprinted? Why do you mourn the loss of freedom when you’re being herded into the INS registration centers, interrogated, suspected of being terrorists and treated like sh*t?

[As for attacking Pakistan, you get carried away by your own rhetoric. It is not morality, but lack of military capability, that prevents India from doing that. If you dont believe me, read the newspapers of last year on how a million man Indian army marched up to the Pakistan borders and a couple of missile tests threw the cold water of reality on India`s BJP chauvinists.]

You seem to be much in the same mould as most Pakis that believe in the ``1 Paki= 10 Hindus`` theory. So Mr. “t”ahmed, it is you who has to wake up and smell the coffee. If you remember, the same media that you so often love to quote carried Gen. Padmanabhan`s interview in which he clearly said that the Indian Army was prepared to absorb a Pakistani nuclear strike, and still go ahead. No one, not even your so called best friends, China believed that the Paki Army would last the Indian blitz (please do a google search for more info on that). That`s why when Mushy rushed to Beijing at the height of the confrontation to seek China`s help in the event of a war, he was politely told by the Chinese to solve all outstanding disputes with India through negotiations.

In the past 6 years, India has acquired the latest, state-of-the-art defense hardware like the Sukhois, the Krivak class frigates, the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, developed and deployed the Agni and Prithvi class missiles, developed the supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, negotiated the purchase of Arrow radars and reconnaissance aircraft from Israel. OTOH, except for the obsolete No dong missile it had bartered from North Korea in exchange for providing nuclear technology which in turn is stolen too, and the Agosta class submarines, Pakistan’s acquisitions were zilch. Pakistan was struggling to procure spares for even its F-16s, touted as the PAF’s showpiece. As for the missiles, Pakistan had tested them quite a few times much before the Indian Army was actually mobilized, so who were you trying to surprise? Colin Powell, Richard Armitage, and Ari Fleischer (Bush`s spokesman), clearly described later how they had averted a certain war. So your `lack of military capability` argument goes out of the window. I know you’re a retired brigadier’s son, so you might be excused if you believed in this myth, but please don`t try to sell this crap to others, not even your to your fellow Pakis. They won’t be amused.

stuka #41 It is indeed true that political leaders are not as stupid as many of the joe schmoes one finds on chowk, and generally make decisions based on cost-benefit analysis. Trouble is, their cost-benefit analysis is geared to the following bottom line: does this help me retain/extend my political power. Once this bottom line is met, they then focus on the next consideration: promotion of their personal prejudices. This then becomes government policy, which in turn is properly cloaked in propoganda.
Jow schmoe then writes posts on chowk parroting his or hers respective government propoganda lines, with eyes tightly closed against reality.
(The above has come to be known as the Tahmed Theory of Everything You Wanted to Know About Chowk Warriors But Were Afraid to Ask).

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TAhmed:

``It is not morality, but lack of military capability, that prevents India from doing that. ``

Most people tend to realize that at a fundamental level but lose sight of that fact in their emotional state. When I was in India, conversations revolved around America`s double standards in fighting terrorism in Afghanistan but not ``allowing`` India to fight Pakistan.

I got blue in the face saying that ``Idiots, America does not encourage an Indo-Pak war because it does not want craters where Delhi and Karachi stand.`` Beyond that, India does not need anyone`s permission to fight. It does not do so simply out of it`s pwn calculation of costs and benefits.

harish_hyd #37
The Pakistani Army is too busy looting its own people to fight or too afraid to fight at the borders and has fostered fanatic jihadis and underworld dons like Dawood Ibrahim to be their proxies to strike inside India instead.

Its only ostrich Pakistanis who fail to realise the danger in their national dependence on fanatics and criminals as instruments of policy. IMO, it will take only one major terrorist attack in India engineered by JeM/LeT or Dawood Ibrahim to bring us back to the brink of war and it willnot matter whether US did something similar before or not.

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harish_hyd #37 When you write ``India can put this menace of cross-border terrorism to an end forever even now.``, you demonstrate not just a short memory but also a need to hide (is that why you call yourself ``hyd``?) from reality. India, my friend is not the US, neither morally nor militarily nor culturally.
In the US you dont have mobs attacking minorities while the police look the other way and while the provincial chief minister celebrates this as an act of revenge. So spare me your morality. If you want to move yourself up a notch on the morality scale, I think you should see what this article is about (India`s in-border weaknesses) rather than trying to pass attention to ``across the border``. Learn from some of the other Indian posters on chowk who are obviously more enlightened on issues of morality than you are.
As for attacking Pakistan, you get carried away by your own rhetoric. It is not morality, but lack of military capability, that prevents India from doing that. If you dont believe me, read the newspapers of last year on how a million man Indian army marched up to the Pakistan borders and a couple of missile tests threw the cold water of reality on India`s BJP chauvinists. So, wake up and smell the coffee. Dont live in a dream world like your BJP chauvinists.

Some good points you have made there Partha.

But I would rather appreciate if you will go one steo ahead and declare this as not particularly relevant to Gujarat only but shortcomings of a system in general for the entire nation. More often that not this kind of disasters happen in our nation and we the common man are left with this bitter feeling that the systm could have handled the situation more aptly.

Carnage in Gujarat `was` more of a action-reaction phenomenon...and not just for the beginning. A lot of the stories of muslim retaliations though very minor in magnitude were circulated and infact reported by the media.