Creation of Hindu ’madrasas’
Rasheed Talib December 26, 2002
#59 Posted by Pankaj on December 28, 2002 12:37:39 pm
Romair#58
``There are two very interesting aspects of the policies presented on these websites: these groups have very progressive policies for India - women`s rights, technology, self-reliance, peasants rights etc. Much of this goes against the official caste system that is part of Brahmanism, hence I don`t think these parties can really be called Hinduvta, in that sense, i.e. true Hinduvta parties would want shudars to remain shudars.
``
This is a common mistake that people not familiar with the complexities of Indian polity make. If you want to derive a true understanding of RSS you will have to read ``We or Our Nationhood Defined`` by Veer Savarkar, the father figure of Hindutva. Also what you state is completely wrong that the Hindutva parties would like Sudras to remain as sudras. Infact they would strive for exactly the opposite. Savarkar, himself an agnostic, was aware that the weakness of the Hindu society arises from its caste system. He, therefore was dead against it. He wanted to fashion the Hindu society along egalitarian lines by uniting ALL the Hindus under one common banner. That is why you find BJP faring bad in the highly casteist and rural society of Bihar while it achieves tremendous success in the relatively urban, casteless and egalitarian society of Gujrat. The ``cultural nationalism`` that BJP espouses is originally his idea. Thus RSS is a sort of political movement that aims to create a Hindu Rashtra not a Brahmanical Rashtra. By ``Hindu``, Savarkar meant anybody who identified himself with Hinduism. In spirit, it is a great movement for Hindus and it has the capability to absorb the progressive Hindu thoughts.
Its major weakness is its ``negativism``. Its stand on the Hindu unity is great, but the purpose of this unity is destructive, i.e. persecution of minorities based on a shared feeling of historical injustice against Hindus. Had this unity been for a more constructive purpose, for instance like a religious reform movement of Vivekananda or Dayanand Saraswati, it would have worked wonderfully to revitalize the Hindu society and convert it into a modern progressive force. Instead RSS chose to unite the Hindu society for a destructive purpose by erecting walls of hatred. It capitalises on the sense of insecurity among Hindus. The tragedy is that most of the other parties except BJP in India want to divide the Hindu society to further their own party interests. You are right in one aspect- because of this ``nagative`` purpose RSS has degenerated into a vindictive party that could destabilise the Indian polity by internal strifes. The Hindu society needs another Vivekananda to soothe Hindu psyche, to reassure it and lead it towards a progressive future. If one wants to direct the immense energy released from Hindu-unification towards a constructive purpose of reformation and progress, he will have to appeal to the civilizational consciousness of the Indians. I doubt the so called ``secular`` politicians of India who are too busy playing their ``caste-cards`` to fragment the Hindu society can do that. The anger and frustation generated by these casteist policies is sure to force people to side with RSS sooner or later and that may not be good for India. To successfully oppose RSS, we need a truly anti-caste, secular organization that aims to promote harmony between the various sections of Indian society by reconcilation and direct their efforts towards economic progress and prosperity.
``There are two very interesting aspects of the policies presented on these websites: these groups have very progressive policies for India - women`s rights, technology, self-reliance, peasants rights etc. Much of this goes against the official caste system that is part of Brahmanism, hence I don`t think these parties can really be called Hinduvta, in that sense, i.e. true Hinduvta parties would want shudars to remain shudars.
``
This is a common mistake that people not familiar with the complexities of Indian polity make. If you want to derive a true understanding of RSS you will have to read ``We or Our Nationhood Defined`` by Veer Savarkar, the father figure of Hindutva. Also what you state is completely wrong that the Hindutva parties would like Sudras to remain as sudras. Infact they would strive for exactly the opposite. Savarkar, himself an agnostic, was aware that the weakness of the Hindu society arises from its caste system. He, therefore was dead against it. He wanted to fashion the Hindu society along egalitarian lines by uniting ALL the Hindus under one common banner. That is why you find BJP faring bad in the highly casteist and rural society of Bihar while it achieves tremendous success in the relatively urban, casteless and egalitarian society of Gujrat. The ``cultural nationalism`` that BJP espouses is originally his idea. Thus RSS is a sort of political movement that aims to create a Hindu Rashtra not a Brahmanical Rashtra. By ``Hindu``, Savarkar meant anybody who identified himself with Hinduism. In spirit, it is a great movement for Hindus and it has the capability to absorb the progressive Hindu thoughts.
Its major weakness is its ``negativism``. Its stand on the Hindu unity is great, but the purpose of this unity is destructive, i.e. persecution of minorities based on a shared feeling of historical injustice against Hindus. Had this unity been for a more constructive purpose, for instance like a religious reform movement of Vivekananda or Dayanand Saraswati, it would have worked wonderfully to revitalize the Hindu society and convert it into a modern progressive force. Instead RSS chose to unite the Hindu society for a destructive purpose by erecting walls of hatred. It capitalises on the sense of insecurity among Hindus. The tragedy is that most of the other parties except BJP in India want to divide the Hindu society to further their own party interests. You are right in one aspect- because of this ``nagative`` purpose RSS has degenerated into a vindictive party that could destabilise the Indian polity by internal strifes. The Hindu society needs another Vivekananda to soothe Hindu psyche, to reassure it and lead it towards a progressive future. If one wants to direct the immense energy released from Hindu-unification towards a constructive purpose of reformation and progress, he will have to appeal to the civilizational consciousness of the Indians. I doubt the so called ``secular`` politicians of India who are too busy playing their ``caste-cards`` to fragment the Hindu society can do that. The anger and frustation generated by these casteist policies is sure to force people to side with RSS sooner or later and that may not be good for India. To successfully oppose RSS, we need a truly anti-caste, secular organization that aims to promote harmony between the various sections of Indian society by reconcilation and direct their efforts towards economic progress and prosperity.
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#58 Posted by Romair on December 28, 2002 10:54:58 am
There are some interesting websites that every South Asian should visit. They are:
www.bjp.org (The official BJP site)
www.vhp.org (The official VHP site)
www.rss.org (The official Rashtrya Swayamsevak Sangh site)
www.shivsena.org (The official Shiv Sena site)
www.bajrangdal.org (The official Bajrang Dal site)
www.narendramodi.org (The official site of Gujrat CM Modi)
The reason I want to encourage people visiting these sites is to get better informed - not to put down India or to indulge in attacks and counterattacks. I went through some of these sites and the policies of these parties became quite clear. They are quite straightforward on what they want for India and the best way to expose it to everyone is to quote directly from their site:
For those who don`t know, RSS is a parent group. Underneath it, it has various different wings and alliances that handle various different areas - BJP is the political wing, VHP is the religious wing. RSS also acts as an umbrella alliance for groups like Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal.
These groups together are currently running India. Their sister branch BJP has been elected into power again and again through free and fair elections. BJP looks towards the RSS for organizational direction and towards the VHP for religious direction. In essence, BJP has to perform within the loose boundaries laid out by the RSS and VHP.
There are two very interesting aspects of the policies presented on these websites: these groups have very progressive policies for India - women`s rights, technology, self-reliance, peasants rights etc. Much of this goes against the official caste system that is part of Brahmanism, hence I don`t think these parties can really be called Hinduvta, in that sense, i.e. true Hinduvta parties would want shudars to remain shudars.
The other strking feature is that when it comes to Muslims, all progressive polices go out the door. Muslims, as you will see in the quotes below, are the cause of most Indian problems, according to these own websites.
Due to the above, I don`t think these parties are Hindu nationalist parties (with Hindu meaning the religion), they are anti-Muslim parties and pro-India parties (with India being equated with Hinduism).
Following are some interesting quotes from these websites:
BJP
----
``Majority of the Muslims of India are converts to that faith from Hinduism through force of circumstances. They are still Hindu in many essential ways and, in a free, prosperous, progressive India, they would find it the most natural thing in the world to revert to their ancient faith and ways of life.`` (According to BJP, this quote is from Gandhi http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``The RSS, along with millions of people, did not approve of Gandhiji`s Muslim appeasement policy - starting with support of the Khilafat movement - but it had the greatest respect for the Mahatma. (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``Ayodhya united the people.`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``The BJP is not going to be apologetic or ashamed of its agenda and the Gujarat experiment shall be replicated in all the States before the next elections to reach the target of 300 seats,`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``We are not going to be on the defensive any longer. If anything is wrong, it is minoritism`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``The founding of the BJS in 1950 by S.P. Mookerji was largely caused by the merciless persecution of Hindus in East Pakistan and the inept handling of their case by the Indian government.`` (http://www.bjp.org/pomi.htm)
RSS
-----
``The R.S.S. stands for the spread of Hindu culture`` (http://www.rss.org/organisation.htm)
VHP
-----
``Hindutva and nationalism in Bharat are synonymous....
``The patriotic Hindus all over the world aspire to construct a magnificent temple at Sri Rama Janma Bhumi in Ayodhya in accordance with the model approved by the revered saints.....
``Secessionist demands and propaganda in Kashmir or anywhere else in the country, or indulging in violent activity will be ruthlessly repressed.....
``The status of second official language accorded by certain states to Urdu in foreign script will be withdrawn.....
``The distorted presentation of modern, social and cultural history of Bharat will be re-written by honest, patriotic and learned historians and archaeologists. The teaching syllabus shall be accordingly reformed.``
Bajrang Dal
--------------
``Muslims are trying to enforce Islamic laws in India and going as far as murdering our women but when Hindus fight back, this is termed as Hindu militancy/extremism......
``While the world is being terrorized by Islam, PBS has gone into recruiting more terrorists for Islam. Seems that PBS supports terrorism indirectly. It is in the best interest of all citizens of the U.S.A. to stop funding PBS``........
``We are now assured that Muslims will not harm any Hindus
in Gujarat via their terrorist tactics! We will see to it that the flag of Hindutva protects each and every Hindu women and child from the barbaric Muslims! The Islamic murderers must understand that things have changed and are going to continue to change throughout India. Muslims must decide how they want to live in India.........
``Hindus in India are waking up to the fact that Hindutva is the only answer to Muslim barbarity in Bharat........
``VHP has decided that it will try to back Muslims into Hinduism. However it is not a new idea for this religious organization. A special wing ‘Dharma Prasar Vibhag’ is doing hard to fulfill this mission........
(http://hinduunity.org/index.html)
Shiv Sena:
------------
Interestingly, the Shiv Sena site is the only site that does not openly say anything against Muslims.
---------------------
I am not a secularist (nor am I a religionist). Hence, the fact that all these organizations go against secularism does not bother me. I think the concept of secularism and religion are masks behind which people hide to commit all kinds of crimes. The brainwashed secular or religious cadres only concentrate on secularism or religion and follow these organization in their crimes.
Hence I will always oppose both secular or religious organizations if they are not humane, i.e. I oppose Turkish and Saudi govts. equally.
However, the RSS and its children organizations are not proposing religion for the right reasons. They are promoting it for the wrong reasons. The fact that they are so egalitarian on all issues related to the Hindu population, but completely opposite for Muslims is even more dangerous. There sites are filled with very progressive policies for all sects of Hinduism (in essence they are not promoting a Brahman agenda) or hate-filled policies against Muslims.
The above would be alright for India if it was a completely Hindu state. But it isn`t. What in the world is India going to do with its 140 million Muslim population and 25 million Christian population (interestingly these sites don`t seem offended by Sikhs - even though the birth of Sikhism by Guru Nanak (who was a Hindu) was against the Brahman system in place in India).
I would suggest to our Indian friends that they stop worrying about Pakistan. If the above websites are anything to go by, India, in another ten years will have far more domestic issues to worry about than Pakistan. The RSS policies will create a prosperous and powerful Hindu class and a completely scared, frustrated, and sidelined Muslim population.
www.bjp.org (The official BJP site)
www.vhp.org (The official VHP site)
www.rss.org (The official Rashtrya Swayamsevak Sangh site)
www.shivsena.org (The official Shiv Sena site)
www.bajrangdal.org (The official Bajrang Dal site)
www.narendramodi.org (The official site of Gujrat CM Modi)
The reason I want to encourage people visiting these sites is to get better informed - not to put down India or to indulge in attacks and counterattacks. I went through some of these sites and the policies of these parties became quite clear. They are quite straightforward on what they want for India and the best way to expose it to everyone is to quote directly from their site:
For those who don`t know, RSS is a parent group. Underneath it, it has various different wings and alliances that handle various different areas - BJP is the political wing, VHP is the religious wing. RSS also acts as an umbrella alliance for groups like Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal.
These groups together are currently running India. Their sister branch BJP has been elected into power again and again through free and fair elections. BJP looks towards the RSS for organizational direction and towards the VHP for religious direction. In essence, BJP has to perform within the loose boundaries laid out by the RSS and VHP.
There are two very interesting aspects of the policies presented on these websites: these groups have very progressive policies for India - women`s rights, technology, self-reliance, peasants rights etc. Much of this goes against the official caste system that is part of Brahmanism, hence I don`t think these parties can really be called Hinduvta, in that sense, i.e. true Hinduvta parties would want shudars to remain shudars.
The other strking feature is that when it comes to Muslims, all progressive polices go out the door. Muslims, as you will see in the quotes below, are the cause of most Indian problems, according to these own websites.
Due to the above, I don`t think these parties are Hindu nationalist parties (with Hindu meaning the religion), they are anti-Muslim parties and pro-India parties (with India being equated with Hinduism).
Following are some interesting quotes from these websites:
BJP
----
``Majority of the Muslims of India are converts to that faith from Hinduism through force of circumstances. They are still Hindu in many essential ways and, in a free, prosperous, progressive India, they would find it the most natural thing in the world to revert to their ancient faith and ways of life.`` (According to BJP, this quote is from Gandhi http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``The RSS, along with millions of people, did not approve of Gandhiji`s Muslim appeasement policy - starting with support of the Khilafat movement - but it had the greatest respect for the Mahatma. (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``Ayodhya united the people.`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``The BJP is not going to be apologetic or ashamed of its agenda and the Gujarat experiment shall be replicated in all the States before the next elections to reach the target of 300 seats,`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``We are not going to be on the defensive any longer. If anything is wrong, it is minoritism`` (http://www.bjp.org/history.htm)
``The founding of the BJS in 1950 by S.P. Mookerji was largely caused by the merciless persecution of Hindus in East Pakistan and the inept handling of their case by the Indian government.`` (http://www.bjp.org/pomi.htm)
RSS
-----
``The R.S.S. stands for the spread of Hindu culture`` (http://www.rss.org/organisation.htm)
VHP
-----
``Hindutva and nationalism in Bharat are synonymous....
``The patriotic Hindus all over the world aspire to construct a magnificent temple at Sri Rama Janma Bhumi in Ayodhya in accordance with the model approved by the revered saints.....
``Secessionist demands and propaganda in Kashmir or anywhere else in the country, or indulging in violent activity will be ruthlessly repressed.....
``The status of second official language accorded by certain states to Urdu in foreign script will be withdrawn.....
``The distorted presentation of modern, social and cultural history of Bharat will be re-written by honest, patriotic and learned historians and archaeologists. The teaching syllabus shall be accordingly reformed.``
Bajrang Dal
--------------
``Muslims are trying to enforce Islamic laws in India and going as far as murdering our women but when Hindus fight back, this is termed as Hindu militancy/extremism......
``While the world is being terrorized by Islam, PBS has gone into recruiting more terrorists for Islam. Seems that PBS supports terrorism indirectly. It is in the best interest of all citizens of the U.S.A. to stop funding PBS``........
``We are now assured that Muslims will not harm any Hindus
in Gujarat via their terrorist tactics! We will see to it that the flag of Hindutva protects each and every Hindu women and child from the barbaric Muslims! The Islamic murderers must understand that things have changed and are going to continue to change throughout India. Muslims must decide how they want to live in India.........
``Hindus in India are waking up to the fact that Hindutva is the only answer to Muslim barbarity in Bharat........
``VHP has decided that it will try to back Muslims into Hinduism. However it is not a new idea for this religious organization. A special wing ‘Dharma Prasar Vibhag’ is doing hard to fulfill this mission........
(http://hinduunity.org/index.html)
Shiv Sena:
------------
Interestingly, the Shiv Sena site is the only site that does not openly say anything against Muslims.
---------------------
I am not a secularist (nor am I a religionist). Hence, the fact that all these organizations go against secularism does not bother me. I think the concept of secularism and religion are masks behind which people hide to commit all kinds of crimes. The brainwashed secular or religious cadres only concentrate on secularism or religion and follow these organization in their crimes.
Hence I will always oppose both secular or religious organizations if they are not humane, i.e. I oppose Turkish and Saudi govts. equally.
However, the RSS and its children organizations are not proposing religion for the right reasons. They are promoting it for the wrong reasons. The fact that they are so egalitarian on all issues related to the Hindu population, but completely opposite for Muslims is even more dangerous. There sites are filled with very progressive policies for all sects of Hinduism (in essence they are not promoting a Brahman agenda) or hate-filled policies against Muslims.
The above would be alright for India if it was a completely Hindu state. But it isn`t. What in the world is India going to do with its 140 million Muslim population and 25 million Christian population (interestingly these sites don`t seem offended by Sikhs - even though the birth of Sikhism by Guru Nanak (who was a Hindu) was against the Brahman system in place in India).
I would suggest to our Indian friends that they stop worrying about Pakistan. If the above websites are anything to go by, India, in another ten years will have far more domestic issues to worry about than Pakistan. The RSS policies will create a prosperous and powerful Hindu class and a completely scared, frustrated, and sidelined Muslim population.
#57 Posted by arjun_m on December 28, 2002 10:13:58 am
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#56 Posted by Ashok on December 28, 2002 10:13:58 am
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#55 Posted by Ashok on December 28, 2002 10:13:58 am
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#54 Posted by Ashok on December 28, 2002 10:13:58 am
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#53 Posted by bbabu on December 28, 2002 7:54:24 am
to pakistanis on chowk
there is 2 huge differences between VHS/RSS/BJP and Taleban/Jamaat types. The RSS/VHP/BJP are not in any way restricting the political and economic freedoms of vast majority of Hindus (at least the forward/backward castes if not SC/ST). The Taleban/Jamaat agenda followed in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, tribal belt of Pakistan severely restricts the political, economic and social freedoms of Muslim majorities they represent. It leads to economically vibrant India versus a laggard Pakistan.
The second is that BJP/RSS/VHP actions are restricted to India. Lot of Islamic types cross borders causing major international problems and inviting nasty responses like the US air strikes in Afghanistan.
#52 Posted by jay on December 28, 2002 7:54:24 am
``In Pakistan, the phenomena of increasing madrassas can be attributed as the failure of the state to provide equitable education to its citizens. The levels of religious extermism in Pakistan are more attributable to the sense of economic frustrations than they are a result of Saudi Arabia`s Wahhabi domiated and funded financing of Pakistani madrassas. The religious and secular polarization in Pakistan resulted from the fact that the goverment, though encouraging maddrassa education, failed to provide a mechanism, which would have intergrated the graduates of these religious schools into the economy of Pakistan``
above is from post 15 of ferzok, the writings of a typical closet jihadist. What he fails to mention is that the madrasa were set up specifically by the military to create taliban, to support the doctrine strategic depth by creating a ``friendly` islamic state in tune with the pak values. A large part of the madrasa producta also are absoebed into the pak military.
Having set up the madrasa for a specific purpose, it is pathetic to see an educated pakistani complain that the madrasa products are not trained. They are trained in hatred of the kafirs, they then seek out the ``non-innocents` in kashmir, kenya, chehniya, you name it.
It is also well known that once a paki become a shaheed, the so called welfare organisations provide support for the family, and considering the strong family values, madrasa education is a good econom,ic investment for the family.
200,000 madrasa will not flourish in pakistan if it were a total useless entity for the pakistanis. It is tme that people like ferzok come out and tell the world about the reality in pakistan, rather than providing a white wash in modern economic jargon that has not much relevanct to the pak society. For once why cant you write about the economic benefits to a shaheed family.
above is from post 15 of ferzok, the writings of a typical closet jihadist. What he fails to mention is that the madrasa were set up specifically by the military to create taliban, to support the doctrine strategic depth by creating a ``friendly` islamic state in tune with the pak values. A large part of the madrasa producta also are absoebed into the pak military.
Having set up the madrasa for a specific purpose, it is pathetic to see an educated pakistani complain that the madrasa products are not trained. They are trained in hatred of the kafirs, they then seek out the ``non-innocents` in kashmir, kenya, chehniya, you name it.
It is also well known that once a paki become a shaheed, the so called welfare organisations provide support for the family, and considering the strong family values, madrasa education is a good econom,ic investment for the family.
200,000 madrasa will not flourish in pakistan if it were a total useless entity for the pakistanis. It is tme that people like ferzok come out and tell the world about the reality in pakistan, rather than providing a white wash in modern economic jargon that has not much relevanct to the pak society. For once why cant you write about the economic benefits to a shaheed family.
#51 Posted by jay on December 28, 2002 7:54:24 am
Islamic law divides the world into dar al-Islam (abode of Islam) and dar al-harb (abode of war—that is, of non-Muslim rule). Most modern branches of Islam stress the inner, spiritual jihad. But Islamic law also states that all nations must surrender to Islamic rule, if not its faith. Until that time, all adult, male, and able-bodied Muslims are expected to take part in hostile jihads against non-Muslim neighbors and neighboring lands. The Qur`an (Koran) states that those who die in this type of jihad automatically become martyrs of the faith and are awarded a special place in heaven.
For Muslims, there exist two kinds of non-Muslim enemies: kafir (nonbelievers in Islam) and ahl al-kitab (people of the book). Kafir, such as Buddhists and Hindus (see Buddhism; Hinduism), must either convert to Islam or face execution. Once converted to Islam it is a capital offense to renounce the faith. People of the book include Jews, Christians, and followers of Zoroastrianism. These people need only submit to Muslim political authority to avoid or end a jihad. They may keep their original faith, but their status becomes dhimmi (a “protected” non-Muslim) and they must pay a prescribed poll tax.
Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
If what is above is jihad, ferzok, please revaluate the role of madrasas. They have non of the modern economic objectives in the islamic republic of pakistan. The products of madrasa integrate to the religious function primarily, and the economic benefits are the loot they bring home, dont forget the days of gazxnavi.
For Muslims, there exist two kinds of non-Muslim enemies: kafir (nonbelievers in Islam) and ahl al-kitab (people of the book). Kafir, such as Buddhists and Hindus (see Buddhism; Hinduism), must either convert to Islam or face execution. Once converted to Islam it is a capital offense to renounce the faith. People of the book include Jews, Christians, and followers of Zoroastrianism. These people need only submit to Muslim political authority to avoid or end a jihad. They may keep their original faith, but their status becomes dhimmi (a “protected” non-Muslim) and they must pay a prescribed poll tax.
Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
If what is above is jihad, ferzok, please revaluate the role of madrasas. They have non of the modern economic objectives in the islamic republic of pakistan. The products of madrasa integrate to the religious function primarily, and the economic benefits are the loot they bring home, dont forget the days of gazxnavi.
#50 Posted by mbenzenglish on December 28, 2002 7:54:23 am
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#49 Posted by rsaxena on December 28, 2002 7:54:23 am
re: ferozk
{Could you please explain, how you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis? }
A) the indian economy has outpaced pakistan`s despite being so much larger and more complex - pakistan is now a poorer nation than india
B) india still has democratic institutions, even if they are not perfect - every foreign nation in the world acknowledges that, other than pakistan of course
C) all the gloom and doom pakis jump up and down about is somehow missed by foreign investors who continue to pour investments into india - that tells me the gloom and doom is little more than wishful thinking by pakistanis
D) indian citizens are not on the list of terrorist suspects in the west - pakistanis are
E) bigotry is not institutionalized in the indian constitution like it is in pakistan (remember, no non-muslims in high offices) - just go ask the muslim president and christian defense minister in india about that...gujarat is something that could have happened in any country - no minority burns a train of the majority and gets away with it...it`s not right, but no one said human beings were perfect...a godhra in pakistan would`ve been followed by riots 10 times worse...
F) however small, india has made a positive contribution to the world with its software exports and IIT CEOs - what has pakistan contributed lately other than terrorism and the taliban?
G) an indian graduating from a top college in india (no matter how poor he is) can apply for jobs at any big investment bank, consulting firm, or technology company you can think of...his counterpart in pakistan does not have the option since those companies simply don`t exist there....
H) india`s literacy rates are higher than pakistan`s, particularly amongst women - maybe that is why all of the above exist...
I) indians screwed up by electing one modi - pakistan has a hundred of them...and by the way, americans keep electing trent lott to the senate, despite his record of bigotry going back to the early 80s...shall we throw american democracy to the dustbin too?..
{Could you please explain, how you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis? }
A) the indian economy has outpaced pakistan`s despite being so much larger and more complex - pakistan is now a poorer nation than india
B) india still has democratic institutions, even if they are not perfect - every foreign nation in the world acknowledges that, other than pakistan of course
C) all the gloom and doom pakis jump up and down about is somehow missed by foreign investors who continue to pour investments into india - that tells me the gloom and doom is little more than wishful thinking by pakistanis
D) indian citizens are not on the list of terrorist suspects in the west - pakistanis are
E) bigotry is not institutionalized in the indian constitution like it is in pakistan (remember, no non-muslims in high offices) - just go ask the muslim president and christian defense minister in india about that...gujarat is something that could have happened in any country - no minority burns a train of the majority and gets away with it...it`s not right, but no one said human beings were perfect...a godhra in pakistan would`ve been followed by riots 10 times worse...
F) however small, india has made a positive contribution to the world with its software exports and IIT CEOs - what has pakistan contributed lately other than terrorism and the taliban?
G) an indian graduating from a top college in india (no matter how poor he is) can apply for jobs at any big investment bank, consulting firm, or technology company you can think of...his counterpart in pakistan does not have the option since those companies simply don`t exist there....
H) india`s literacy rates are higher than pakistan`s, particularly amongst women - maybe that is why all of the above exist...
I) indians screwed up by electing one modi - pakistan has a hundred of them...and by the way, americans keep electing trent lott to the senate, despite his record of bigotry going back to the early 80s...shall we throw american democracy to the dustbin too?..
#48 Posted by temporal on December 28, 2002 7:54:23 am
#47 by ferozk
good questions…don’t hold your breadth for genuine answers…at best you will get knee jerk replies and programmed raw replies through their reliable and courteous plants…;)
#42 by Romair
[…Why in the world does any critique on anything wrong with India, by Indians, have to include something wrong in Pakistan?…]
---because despite different flags, passports and outward appearances deep down we are the same …
your friendly next-door isi/raw double agent
...t
good questions…don’t hold your breadth for genuine answers…at best you will get knee jerk replies and programmed raw replies through their reliable and courteous plants…;)
#42 by Romair
[…Why in the world does any critique on anything wrong with India, by Indians, have to include something wrong in Pakistan?…]
---because despite different flags, passports and outward appearances deep down we are the same …
your friendly next-door isi/raw double agent
...t
#47 Posted by nasah on December 27, 2002 11:45:18 pm
``Why not just say, ``Hey India should not saffronize its educational system, because it is wrong - with no mention of Pakistan.`` (Romair)
No -- it`s entirely proper to mention Islamist Monkey of Pakistan --
because --
what Hindutva MONKEY sees Hindutva MONKEY does....
No -- it`s entirely proper to mention Islamist Monkey of Pakistan --
because --
what Hindutva MONKEY sees Hindutva MONKEY does....
#46 Posted by ferozk on December 27, 2002 11:45:18 pm
The problem with pathological hate is that it cannot be reasoned with, specially when hatred is justified for the sake of hatred itself. Hate; to suffer from hate and to believe in hatred blinds the person and makes their opinions/views subjective. Hate is an emotional state of mind, which clouds the judgement and hinders effective reasoning.
I have some questions for the Indians on this thread, if they wish to answer them.
Please go right ahead and hate Pakistan and hate Muslims, but please consider this fact.
Are you prepared to pay the price for your choice?
You can hate Pakistanis and Pakistan`s Muslims, and when you demonize the Muslims and use anti-Muslim sentiments to increase your vote bank, why are you punishing your own citizens who happen to be Muslims?
If you claim, as some of you have in the past, that Indian Muslims have more rights than minorities in Pakistan, how does this act of yours, fueling anti-Muslim feelings squares with that claim?
You can hate Pakistanis and Pakistan, but what have you gained if in the process of hating Pakistan, you end up destroying your own country? Are you so blinded by your pathological hatred for Pakistan, Pakistanis and Muslims that you cannot see the results wrought about by your intentions and actions?
You claim that unlike Pakistan, India is a secular nation and if that is true, since when did secular India started to tolerate the insidious influence of religion in politics, specially if religion is used politically to win elections?
You claimed that Pakistan was mixing religion with politics and was a theocratic state. Is India also becoming a theocratic state since it started to mix religion with politics?
You claimed that minorities in Pakistan have to prove their loyalities to the state. Are you not doing the same with your minorities, when you question them and equate anti-Muslim sentiments with a with strong national security, like Modi did in the recent Gujrat elections?
You claimed that the Pakistanis, who were responsible for sectarian violence against minorities were aided and protected by the state and never punished.
Have you in India punished the people, who were responsible for killing the thousands of Sikhs after the assassination of Indra Ghandi?
Did the state of Gujrat not aid the people, who killed Muslims in Gujrat riots by its inactions and did its failure to stem the violence not protected perpetators from accountibility?
You claimed that Pakistan`s state institutions were responsible for their failures to stop sectarianism and were being politized. Were the state institutions in Gujrat not guilty of a similiar act?
You claim that you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis.
Could you please explain, how you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis?
Ciao
I have some questions for the Indians on this thread, if they wish to answer them.
Please go right ahead and hate Pakistan and hate Muslims, but please consider this fact.
Are you prepared to pay the price for your choice?
You can hate Pakistanis and Pakistan`s Muslims, and when you demonize the Muslims and use anti-Muslim sentiments to increase your vote bank, why are you punishing your own citizens who happen to be Muslims?
If you claim, as some of you have in the past, that Indian Muslims have more rights than minorities in Pakistan, how does this act of yours, fueling anti-Muslim feelings squares with that claim?
You can hate Pakistanis and Pakistan, but what have you gained if in the process of hating Pakistan, you end up destroying your own country? Are you so blinded by your pathological hatred for Pakistan, Pakistanis and Muslims that you cannot see the results wrought about by your intentions and actions?
You claim that unlike Pakistan, India is a secular nation and if that is true, since when did secular India started to tolerate the insidious influence of religion in politics, specially if religion is used politically to win elections?
You claimed that Pakistan was mixing religion with politics and was a theocratic state. Is India also becoming a theocratic state since it started to mix religion with politics?
You claimed that minorities in Pakistan have to prove their loyalities to the state. Are you not doing the same with your minorities, when you question them and equate anti-Muslim sentiments with a with strong national security, like Modi did in the recent Gujrat elections?
You claimed that the Pakistanis, who were responsible for sectarian violence against minorities were aided and protected by the state and never punished.
Have you in India punished the people, who were responsible for killing the thousands of Sikhs after the assassination of Indra Ghandi?
Did the state of Gujrat not aid the people, who killed Muslims in Gujrat riots by its inactions and did its failure to stem the violence not protected perpetators from accountibility?
You claimed that Pakistan`s state institutions were responsible for their failures to stop sectarianism and were being politized. Were the state institutions in Gujrat not guilty of a similiar act?
You claim that you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis.
Could you please explain, how you are better than Pakistan and Pakistanis?
Ciao
#45 Posted by rasheedtalib on December 27, 2002 11:11:39 pm
This is brief response to Romair`s #42 comment of Dec 27 to my article on the Hindu madrasas of Dec 26, 2002:
This is an immediate reaction to your excellent comments on my article. I have not been able to take in all of them. But for the moment, I would say that your point about us Indians being obesssed with Pakistan is well taken. In the present case, I was trying to depict concretely for my Indian readers the horrible future awaiting us if we ``go down the slippery slope`` and become ``a mirror image of Pakistan``. Also, that it is not entirely a coincidence that our present eductiaon system has produced the brightest I-T whiz kids in the world. Incidentally, as I pointed out in my piece, Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy is a well-respected, though dissenting. member of Pakistan`s scientific establishment.
This is an immediate reaction to your excellent comments on my article. I have not been able to take in all of them. But for the moment, I would say that your point about us Indians being obesssed with Pakistan is well taken. In the present case, I was trying to depict concretely for my Indian readers the horrible future awaiting us if we ``go down the slippery slope`` and become ``a mirror image of Pakistan``. Also, that it is not entirely a coincidence that our present eductiaon system has produced the brightest I-T whiz kids in the world. Incidentally, as I pointed out in my piece, Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy is a well-respected, though dissenting. member of Pakistan`s scientific establishment.
#44 Posted by sadna on December 27, 2002 9:05:46 pm
rsridhar #35
The author says ``Apart from the standard educational syllabus..``
meaning that Vidya Bharati schools teach the `board` or government-prescribed syllabus. Its the extracurricular learning which the author is talking of on one hand. On the other, the attempts of Hindutva ideologues to change parts of the government-presribed syllabus itself. Primary and secondary education is a state subject, btw.
The author says ``Apart from the standard educational syllabus..``
meaning that Vidya Bharati schools teach the `board` or government-prescribed syllabus. Its the extracurricular learning which the author is talking of on one hand. On the other, the attempts of Hindutva ideologues to change parts of the government-presribed syllabus itself. Primary and secondary education is a state subject, btw.
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