Creation of Hindu ’madrasas’

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Rasheed, this was an excellent article. It doesnt matter which religion or country follows this madrassa model. Filling students minds with feelings of superiority over others, blaming others, and fanning anger against them will always have the outcome that it had in Germany.

Stuka,

``...How about banning the liberal arts from the Indian curriculum? The only people who study arts are losers basically. They can all be sent into Business and Commerce streams, and the intelligent ones go for tech based majors...``

Oh yeah, it takes a great deal of intelligence to pry a rupee out of someone`s hand by paying someone else one third a rupee to produce something the first person wants....and if we werent all around, goddess knows what you would decide what culture is....let me guess; a big dollar sign statue that you would kiss and prostrate yourself beneath...

........ it is a fact that nobody, other than the lunatic mullah, would send their child to a madrassa if they had a choice ........people are not stupid - they are just too damn poor ..........everyone in pakistan wants to send their kids to an ``english-medium`` school so that they can do their ba and get job as a clerk in the secretariat and support them in their old age ............ the only people who send their kids to madrassas are those who don`t have a choice ......... there are no schools in the villages and the unwashed masses in the cities cannot afford the 500 a month or more that these so-called english medium schools want to teach them the rudiments of reading and math ............

.......... in the city there is a ``computerized`` english medium school at every corner and in every galli that is full of children struggling to make it .........tuition centers are running two and three shifts and charging upto 3000 a month per subject to help these kids prepare for various exams ........ pre-schools, like roots, are charging five year olds 4000 a month for half a day ........ there are waiting lists to get into any half-way decent school ( unless you qulaify for the army public schools )..........and these are not the ``high-brow`` schools like beacon house, city school and forebles - these are schools with names like sufa academy, radiant way, afzal grammar, brookfield academy, khaldoonia academy - schools run by housewives and unemployed clerks with mas in english ............ the middle class spends more on tuition than on rent and it is killing them ..............it is not unusal for someone with three kids and a twenty thousand rupee salary to spend as much as six thousand a month on school fees and tuitions and get behind on rent ........

............and who is to blame? .......... it is the government`s responsibility to provide education for the masses - this is one area that cannot be left to the private sector ............ the private sector can only provide five beacon houses at one end and five thousand madrassas at the other .............

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Interesting observations, which prove that there is not much of a difference between the hypocricy of religiously dominated schools in Pakistan and India teaching a myth of inflated superiority.

Re: Amit # 3

Agreed; that there is no scope for these people in India, along the reasons you have suggested.

One question though. Once they are educated in the mantra of RSS and are taught to believe in the invincibilities of their mythology, what happens when these graduates of ``saffron schools`` enter the work place and find themselves to be economically challenged? They were taught to believe in their own fallacies and taught to believe an educational program, which has no revalance to the real world. The problem is that when they try to enter the work force and are denied entry, is that not going to breed frustration with all its myraid consequences?

The real problem with the religious schools, in Pakistan, is not so much the issue of external financing, but a lack of viable employment opportunties, specically for people who are educated in religious schools, which do not, in a realistic sense, teach and prepare their students for the reality of the world. Educating them is not the problem, but the problem is what to do with them once they enter the job stream. Since they have no sellable job skills and their education is more theoretical than practical, they will never succeed in the real world. This lack of jobs, a pessismistic future without no hope in sight ultimately, fuels frustration and this frustration is directed at the society, which forms their immediate environment. This gives way to polarization and this polarization creates socio-economic fissures in the society. These fissures result through the duplication of the education system based on the wealth distributions in the society. The rich are able to afford schools for their children, which prepare them for the ``real world`` and the poor are forced to send their children to schools, which create a surplus of viably uneducated, resentful and economically frustrated work force due their instructional methodolgies, which being religiously based are more dogmatic and less open to scholarly skepticism.

In Pakistan, the phenomena of increasing madrassas can be attributed as the failure of the state to provide equitable education to its citizens. The levels of religious extermism in Pakistan are more attributable to the sense of economic frustrations than they are a result of Saudi Arabia`s Wahhabi domiated and funded financing of Pakistani madrassas. The religious and secular polarization in Pakistan resulted from the fact that the goverment, though encouraging maddrassa education, failed to provide a mechanism, which would have intergrated the graduates of these religious schools into the economy of Pakistan.

India, also, has the potential to face similar problems and given the Indian committments towards modernization, globalization and the liberalization of its economy, India has to balance these issues and decide on them. As India goes ahead with its policies of economic liberalizations, it will open its domestic market to international and domestic competion and the global market of today is interested in a work force, which is educated in the technologies/skills of tomorrow and not in the mythology of a ``glorious past``.

Teaching religious education or political/historic mythology in either India or Pakistan is not the problem; the problem is how these gradutes of such inclined educational institutions can be seamlessly adjusted into the larger national, and in toto, the international economy, without creating serious problems, which have the potential to create adverse ripples across the society.

Hence, can this happen in India? It is too early to predict, but the probabilities should not be discounted. India has the added advantage and the benefit to learn from Pakistan`s experience in this regard. Pakistan thought it had the luxury to discount the consequences and failed to realize its long term implications and the end result was foreordained. It is a folly to suggest and say, ``that it cannot happen here``, because that smacks of a false sense of arrogance and arrogance usually leads to regret later on.

Ciao

Rasheed,

This is another of those disgraces to what ever be the reasearch you are doing and the institution that supports it. No one would care a damn about the madrasa education in pakistan, if it were not for the jihadic element of it. It is the madrasa that sent pakistanis in their thousands to afghanistan, to chechniya and kashmir.

Ig you are looking for kudos from the paksistanis, this is no doubt an easy way of getting it. In pakistan religious education of the madrasa is synonimous with terrorism. There is no such notion of a hindu jihad, nor the ummah or the TNT. When hindu temples were demoslished in allegedly spontaneous response to babri masjid, indian govt did not care, it was an internal matter for pakistan, to prove that there is no ummah idea among the hindus.

It is the notion of ummah and jihad that is central to madrasa, no other aspect of islam counts. First learn about pak madrasa, look out for the activities of ita product, their achievements, not the so called book thay pretend to be learning. Focus on the outcome, that could be something new for your research.

Unjust decision



I condemn the decision given by an Indian court to executethree alleged accomplices of those who attacked the Indian parliament on Dec 13 last year.

I think it is unfair to execute them on the charge that they helped the attackers who were shot dead during the attack.

UZAIR MEHDI LAKHANI

Karachi

Rasheed,

The above letter is from dawn of today. Pl do a researc on why the editors of dawn found it important to print it, why is this pakistani concerned about the execution of indians,...goes on. You are also with the same mind set, why is it relevant to compare the hindu schools with that in pakistan... Must have missed the train to pakistan.

...oh give it up...madrassahs have no equivalents....WHEN YOU SEE INDIANS FLYING PLANES INTO BUILDINGS IN OTHER COUNTRIES WE CAN DISCUSS THIS...

...in the meanwhile,


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...?artid=32448004

MUMBAI: What`s making the likes of Bill Gates, Rajat Gupta, Victor Menezes, and Vindi Banga gather in Silicon Valley in the second week of January? Some of the world`s highest-flying professionals are coming together to promote a brand — and no, it`s not a new, new, geeky thing.

It`s 50 years old, but this is the first formal attempt to create and promote awareness about the Indian Institutes of Technology, put together by IIT`s mega-watt celebrity alumni.

Says McKinsey`s Rajat Gupta, an alumnus of IIT Delhi, ``Brand IIT in general has lagged behind the quality of the alumni and it is time to correct this discrepancy.``

It`s perhaps most fitting that the 50th anniversary of the first IIT — IIT Kharagpur, which was set up at an erstwhile prison camp — should be celebrated in Silicon Valley, with American TV`s 60 Minutes and the world`s richest man in attendance.

After all, the IITs have produced the likes of Victor Menezes, vice-chairman of Citibank, Rajat Gupta, managing director of McKinsey, Kellogg Business School`s Mohanbir Sawhney, venture capitalist Kanwal Rekhi, Vinod Khosla, Former US Airways chief Rakesh Gangwal, MS `Vindi` Banga, chairman of HLL, Nandan Nilekani of Infosys... the list could go on. Not to mention that the Silicon Valley IIT alumni association can probably muster much larger numbers than Kharagpur`s.

``While an IIT is among the top five global educational institutions, an MIT or a Stanford are better recognised brands,`` says Silicon Valley-based Dilip Venkatachari, president Cashedge and a 1981 batch IIT Madras alumnus, who is one of the main co-ordinators of the event.

An aberration which the organisers of the IIT 50 hope will be corrected in the years to come. BusinessWeek, in a cover story, called IITians the ``hottest export from India.``

IIT50, largest event ever staged by all IITs under a common aegis over the 17th and 18th of Jan is an attempt to convert the success of IITians into lasting benefits and mindshare for the IITs themselves. Says NR Narayana Murthy, chairman Infosys and a speaker at IIT50, ``Brand promotion is important for every institution, including the IITs.``

Mr Narayana Murthy will share the podium with the likes of Bill Gates and John Hennessy, president of Stanford, among other guest speakers and alumni across all IITs.

The scale and importance being attached to the event can be seen by the fact that the directors of all the seven IITs (Kharagpur, Madras, Bombay, Kanpur, Delhi, Guwahati and Roorkee), are flying in for the occasion, and discuss their collective vision for the IITs.

And while it may be some time before Brand IIT acquires its rightful place in the pantheon of haloed academic institutions, there is no doubting that this January will see the congregation of some of the best and the brightest that India has produced to chart the course of Brand IIT.

``But, as part of the extra-curricular routine, the students are ‘regaled’ (her word not mine) with tales of brave Hindu warriors and saints, besides being encouraged to participate in quizzes in which questions and answers focus on the ‘ravages’ wrought by Muslim rule in India with particular reference to Emperor Babur`s alleged role in the demolition of the Hindu temple at Ayodhya - the source, you will recall, of the violent communal strife of the 1980s caused by the demolition of Babur’s mosque. (Incidentally, I have often wondered since whether this deed, as an act of religious vandalism with the additional cost of the loss of innocent lives, can be characterized as different from the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddha statues by Taliban fanatics in Afghanistan 20 years later?).``
Er, Rasheed, Babri masjid demolition did not happen 20 years ago in the 1980s as you say, but only ten years ago, on Dec 6, 1992.

Generally speaking, I strongly believe we Indians (both Hindus and Muslims) need to acknowledge the truth regarding muslim invaders destroying Hindu temples. This is a historical truth. We need to acknowledge it, and get past it. If the pseudo-seculars try to brush it under the carpet, then the Hindu extremist who raises this issue gains credibility for speaking the truth, while secularism suffers.
This is similar to the American history, where both whites and blacks acknowledge that the evil of slavery was practised, but now both are committed to equality.
In addition, Indians (of all castes) need to acknowledge the evil of casteism and the horrors perpetuated on dalits and other lower castes over the ages - I bet they were more terrible than any muslim invasion.
The point is Muslims, Hindu upper-castes, different linguistic groups and religious sects have all committed atrocities in the past over other groups of people in India. No group is `clean`, with the exception of dalits who have perennially been at the receiving end. We need to acknowledge what has happened, make remedies if possible, and move forward to a harmonius society. Not acknowledging past wrongs will not make them go away. Instead, it only aggravates the sense of being the `victim`, infuriates the regular, `normal`, secular Hindu and pushes him/her towards the extremists.

Mr Rasheed Talib
Sorry this is a long reply. I happen to be in wholehearted agreement with what you identify as being the dangerous elements of the `saffronization` of education.

Its quite obvious that such indoctrination is a calculated ploy for mass mobilization for the political benefit of the Hindutva movement and that it poses a very real threat to the secular polity of India.

You are absolutely right when you quote `All religions profess peace and love - yet they have been responsible for most of the bloodshed throughout the ages.`

The Middle Eastern conflict in the Holy Land is intractable precisely because of the steady indoctrination over past centuries among large sections of the world`s population about the historicity and `geographicity` of various religious myths. We certainly donot want such conflicts in India.

I have some comments on what you quote from Ms Sengupta`s NYT article about the shishu mandirs run by the RSS.

``But, as part of the extra-curricular routine, the students are ‘regaled’ (her word not mine) with tales of brave Hindu warriors and saints, besides being encouraged to participate in quizzes in which questions and answers focus on the ‘ravages’ wrought by Muslim rule in India with particular reference to Emperor Babur`s alleged role in the demolition of the Hindu temple at Ayodhya - the source, you will recall, of the violent communal strife of the 1980s caused by the demolition of Babur’s mosque``

I too read Somini Sengupta`s article and in my humble opinion, she erred in her reportage in using too broad a stroke of her brush. Her article occupied almost a full page, if I remember right and this all -important paragraph you quote, with the real meat and cause of concern for all rightthinking Indians, instead of being expanded upon with more relevant material(as you have done), was hidden in a larger article whose slant was that all `Hindu-specific` education is bad. A photograph accompanying the article was captioned something like `child studying under a picture of Hindu goddess Durga pictured killing a demon`.

I believe Ms Sengupta`s slant was misguided because its too late to make a case against religion-specific education in India. This is so because (for example) generations of Indians have studied in Christian missionary schools all over India with just such a religious slant for its religious adherents. Christian children are taught to consider Christ and elements of his divinity as historical fact and to answer questions about religiously-significant incidents from the scriptures as if they were history. I as a Hindu, have also studied for 2 years under pictures of St George killing the dragon, also of Christ on the cross and the Virgin Mary as I know many many children have. Is Ms. Durga worse than Mr. St George? (I personally didnot have any objection because I happen to have a soft corner for all mythological figures and mythological tales )

For RSS Hindus to mimic the perpetuation of `dogma` as fact and in addition a hatred against the `other` in their schools is a relatively newer trend. As a Hindu I oppose this and see this sort of mass indoctrination as a threat to the essential pluralism in Hinduism and to the pluralist polity in India. IMHO, the catch is, this issue cannot be raised or addressed in isolation of what else happens in India.

The problem is Christian and perhaps Muslim missionaries have already been operating for decades in the regions where the RSS is now made its presence felt. I have never travelled on train in India without running into groups of Christian novices, nuns and fathers travelling from Kerala to the remotest parts of N.India and the N. East to man the schools and institutions run there.

Recollect that the Pope comes to India and speaks of `harvests of faith`, and Pat Robertson says something similar almost daily when he asks for funds on his Christian Broadcasting Network. He talks of how Hindus are ignorant devilworshippers living in darkness and are headed for hell. He has made such speeches to stadiums full of people in India too. Is this not incitement of hatred against the `other` too?

I live in S. India and we get an evangelist cable TV channel here on which one gets to see `miracles` being performed regularly(miraclenet TV or st). A typical miracle I see is how a man who has been blind for 20 years, says `Jesus` as a white man instructs him to do and hey presto the blind man gets back his sight. A woman has been deaf in one ear for 12 years has `Jesus` said into the deaf ear by the same white man, and lo and behold, she gets her hearing back. Next is a lame man(you get the point). There was a post-Independence Indian consensus to fight superstitious Hinduism and rid society of social evils accruing from such superstition including black magic/quackery and to develop a scientific and rational outlook as you mention, so I wonder where does this evangelist program fit into this consensus?

As for corporate religious institutions intruding into public affairs, unfortunately that is already a reality. For instance, I can recall at least 2 instances I know of secondhand in Kerala (Kerala is one of the most secular and religiously accomodative states in India) where a person agreeing to ally himself with the Church got assistance from the church organisation to settle a land title dispute while in contrast Hindus in the area had to struggle on their own individual basis against their opponents, the bureacracy and the legal system. In one case it was a local RSS group which finally stepped in to help the Hindu litigants. How does the Indian secular consensus address this?

Caste discrimination and the inhuman treatments of Dalits is cited as a reason for conversion and I donot disagree with this as a very good reason to convert. But there are many instances where conversion has not changed the socio-economic standing of Dalits. Regarding Hindu mythology, Dalit activist Kancha Ilaiyah in `Why I am not a Hindu` sees as a Dalit-discrimination metaphor the alleged Hindu racist preference for the white cow over the black buffalo(which I see no evidence of, the God of Dharma Yama rides a black buffalo and many principal Hindu dieties are said to be darkskinned), but does he know if the whites contributing to the spread of Christianity among Dalits in India are willing to accept that Jesus might not have been white-skinned and blue-eyed but been of a more swarthy Middle Eastern race ? From some arguments that I have heard on the topic, many donot.

My point simply is, the Hindu caste system, Hindu mythology and imperfect societal consensus against untouchability cannot for eternity be made the justification of many practices and trends in nonHindu India which are decidedly `nonsecular` in tendency.

There are many underlying assumptions needing reexamination about the corporate propagation of religious narration and dogma as well as social reform, and focussing solely on the religious, social and political aspects of trends in Hinduism while of UTMOST urgency, will not alone suffice.

Re comparison with Pakistan is concerned, as far as lumpen mobilization/indoctrination is concerned I agree totally with your equivalence and comparison. Hordes of close-minded sociopaths taught to hate others and ready to destroy civil society to uphold seemingly religious causes held to be of `higher` priority is certainly the common link here as is the obfuscating pseudo-science practice of passing off concepts in ancient texts as deductive and reasoned scientific theory.

But let me point out a contrast too, here. In Pakistan, it is NOT an option to consider Muhammad the Holy Prophet as a historically or religiously insignificant figure nor can the events associated with him be considered nonhistoric/nonsignificant. There are laws and punishments prescribed against this deemphasis. Even those who assume office have to swear on the finality of the Prophet and those who hold passports have to sign an undertaking to this effect.

PS: A personal question, are you related to one of chowk`s very respected interactors :)?