Creation of Hindu ’madrasas’

These attempts at ``saffronization`` of Indian education are doomed to fail. The reason is purely economic, since such students will not be able to compete and prosper in the Indian economy. Pakistan has Saudi and other external funding available to support its madrasa and mullah culture. India does not have the financial means nor does it have any external benefactors to support a similar industry of brainwashed fanatics. Of course, our RSS types will try to mimic Pakistan in this regard but they have no chance of widespread success.

``Is this the sort of education we Indians want in our school system?``

No, Absolutely No.

The author wrote:

``Need one say any more about the Pakistani concept of science or, for that matter, about Dr Joshi`s vision of education in India?``

I have no idea why the author chose to talk about pseudo-science Pakistani-style when comparing it to an RSS run `madrasa`. A likely analogy is that both are recruiting grounds for millitants, so why the focus on Dr. Hoodboy`s thoughts on ``Islamic science``? This, even when ``Islamic`` science (or rather the nonsense Dr. Hoodboy labels as ``Islamic science``) isn`t taught in your typical militant-run madrasa.

sample comments from a Pathetically Proud Indian

i AM outraged. chee chee. how can you mention our INDIA and _pakasthaan_ (all lowercase!) in one breath?

now i`m so so secular na. but godhra was an outrage and all the rest is politics only. these badmash pakis are taking full advantage of it, like flies. and yet they have no democracy and did kargil to us. but we are secular and proud hyenas and therefore lick our chops.

[400 cut-and-paste lines establishing my genuinely secular and upper-caste-condescending-muslim-coddling-indian-unity-insecure-Gandhian credentials]

Ooh and our temples being attacked in broad daylight only by parvej mooshie .... arff, arff, yelp, yelp, squeal, sqeal

-signed, etc.

murli (OR murlia) mahaan

[sadly, this is the kind of base discourse one tends to see from `neighbors` on this forum]

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Amit,

Actually, the support that the saffron brigage receives will most likely come from groups in New York City. There is a significant number of affluent conservative Hindu Indian communities that support some of the principles that are outlined in this article...

How about banning the liberal arts from the Indian curriculum? The only people who study arts are losers basically. They can all be sent into Business and Commerce streams, and the intelligent ones go for tech based majors.

Amit:

``These attempts at ``saffronization`` of Indian education are doomed to fail. The reason is purely economic, since such students will not be able to compete and prosper in the Indian economy. ``


Ummm, no. If the Indian middle class movews towards rapid saffronization, as is happening in India nowadays, the warped education of Hindutva is reality. Idiots like Joshi want to teach astrology as a science. That is more dangerous to India than a dozen nukes. The Indian middle class is moving steadily towards becoming mindless religious robots if I am to go with the increased presence of religion in the masses. What they need is one solid gaand pey laath to wake them up.

The only hope I have is that we Khatris and non Brahmins have such contempt for Pandits that we don`t mind making them Bhikaris, unlike Islamic countries where they hold the maulvi in high esteem. If the Indian people could vote out a government because Onion prices were high, I have hope for them.

Well done!
What isn`t new; the indoctrination of eco/soc/pol/rac marginalised people/youth, the fundo dismissal of secularist ideology (I can think of two interactors who use the phrase ``Maculay`s children`` regularly), the revision of history...there are undeniable parrallels here btn Indian and Pakistani fundos...

The middle class Hindu, in my opinion, suffers from a large inferiority complex on several counts: having been ruled by firangs for so long, being in a technologically backward and poor country, poor in sports, academics, everything, and having a history of being ruled by muslim invaders who destroyed Hindu temples and were generally detrimental to the caste groups that make up today`s Hindu middle class.
To this, the Hindu middle class person reacts in two ways:
- Build up / glorify the past - with truth, half-truths and falsehoods; believing the past was a kind of a golden age till the invaders destroyed everything.
- Take their anger out on the muslims. Of course they cannot take it out on anybody else - the brits packed their bags and left long ago.
Glorifying the past is an activity that several groups have indulged in. Some upwardly mobile castes in South India that were pathetically poor some generations ago, have reinvented themselves as having been landlords or army generals or rulers... The situation is the same for muslims too, who like hindus have also been left behind by the forward march of the west. You can find any number of articles on the net regarding how everything is in the quran, the golden age of muslims, when they led inventions and discoveries and so on.
Even learned journalists indulge in this. The basis for all this, in my opinion, is an inferiority complex.

Mr Rasheed Talib
Sorry this is a long reply. I happen to be in wholehearted agreement with what you identify as being the dangerous elements of the `saffronization` of education.

Its quite obvious that such indoctrination is a calculated ploy for mass mobilization for the political benefit of the Hindutva movement and that it poses a very real threat to the secular polity of India.

You are absolutely right when you quote `All religions profess peace and love - yet they have been responsible for most of the bloodshed throughout the ages.`

The Middle Eastern conflict in the Holy Land is intractable precisely because of the steady indoctrination over past centuries among large sections of the world`s population about the historicity and `geographicity` of various religious myths. We certainly donot want such conflicts in India.

I have some comments on what you quote from Ms Sengupta`s NYT article about the shishu mandirs run by the RSS.

``But, as part of the extra-curricular routine, the students are ‘regaled’ (her word not mine) with tales of brave Hindu warriors and saints, besides being encouraged to participate in quizzes in which questions and answers focus on the ‘ravages’ wrought by Muslim rule in India with particular reference to Emperor Babur`s alleged role in the demolition of the Hindu temple at Ayodhya - the source, you will recall, of the violent communal strife of the 1980s caused by the demolition of Babur’s mosque``

I too read Somini Sengupta`s article and in my humble opinion, she erred in her reportage in using too broad a stroke of her brush. Her article occupied almost a full page, if I remember right and this all -important paragraph you quote, with the real meat and cause of concern for all rightthinking Indians, instead of being expanded upon with more relevant material(as you have done), was hidden in a larger article whose slant was that all `Hindu-specific` education is bad. A photograph accompanying the article was captioned something like `child studying under a picture of Hindu goddess Durga pictured killing a demon`.

I believe Ms Sengupta`s slant was misguided because its too late to make a case against religion-specific education in India. This is so because (for example) generations of Indians have studied in Christian missionary schools all over India with just such a religious slant for its religious adherents. Christian children are taught to consider Christ and elements of his divinity as historical fact and to answer questions about religiously-significant incidents from the scriptures as if they were history. I as a Hindu, have also studied for 2 years under pictures of St George killing the dragon, also of Christ on the cross and the Virgin Mary as I know many many children have. Is Ms. Durga worse than Mr. St George? (I personally didnot have any objection because I happen to have a soft corner for all mythological figures and mythological tales )

For RSS Hindus to mimic the perpetuation of `dogma` as fact and in addition a hatred against the `other` in their schools is a relatively newer trend. As a Hindu I oppose this and see this sort of mass indoctrination as a threat to the essential pluralism in Hinduism and to the pluralist polity in India. IMHO, the catch is, this issue cannot be raised or addressed in isolation of what else happens in India.

The problem is Christian and perhaps Muslim missionaries have already been operating for decades in the regions where the RSS is now made its presence felt. I have never travelled on train in India without running into groups of Christian novices, nuns and fathers travelling from Kerala to the remotest parts of N.India and the N. East to man the schools and institutions run there.

Recollect that the Pope comes to India and speaks of `harvests of faith`, and Pat Robertson says something similar almost daily when he asks for funds on his Christian Broadcasting Network. He talks of how Hindus are ignorant devilworshippers living in darkness and are headed for hell. He has made such speeches to stadiums full of people in India too. Is this not incitement of hatred against the `other` too?

I live in S. India and we get an evangelist cable TV channel here on which one gets to see `miracles` being performed regularly(miraclenet TV or st). A typical miracle I see is how a man who has been blind for 20 years, says `Jesus` as a white man instructs him to do and hey presto the blind man gets back his sight. A woman has been deaf in one ear for 12 years has `Jesus` said into the deaf ear by the same white man, and lo and behold, she gets her hearing back. Next is a lame man(you get the point). There was a post-Independence Indian consensus to fight superstitious Hinduism and rid society of social evils accruing from such superstition including black magic/quackery and to develop a scientific and rational outlook as you mention, so I wonder where does this evangelist program fit into this consensus?

As for corporate religious institutions intruding into public affairs, unfortunately that is already a reality. For instance, I can recall at least 2 instances I know of secondhand in Kerala (Kerala is one of the most secular and religiously accomodative states in India) where a person agreeing to ally himself with the Church got assistance from the church organisation to settle a land title dispute while in contrast Hindus in the area had to struggle on their own individual basis against their opponents, the bureacracy and the legal system. In one case it was a local RSS group which finally stepped in to help the Hindu litigants. How does the Indian secular consensus address this?

Caste discrimination and the inhuman treatments of Dalits is cited as a reason for conversion and I donot disagree with this as a very good reason to convert. But there are many instances where conversion has not changed the socio-economic standing of Dalits. Regarding Hindu mythology, Dalit activist Kancha Ilaiyah in `Why I am not a Hindu` sees as a Dalit-discrimination metaphor the alleged Hindu racist preference for the white cow over the black buffalo(which I see no evidence of, the God of Dharma Yama rides a black buffalo and many principal Hindu dieties are said to be darkskinned), but does he know if the whites contributing to the spread of Christianity among Dalits in India are willing to accept that Jesus might not have been white-skinned and blue-eyed but been of a more swarthy Middle Eastern race ? From some arguments that I have heard on the topic, many donot.

My point simply is, the Hindu caste system, Hindu mythology and imperfect societal consensus against untouchability cannot for eternity be made the justification of many practices and trends in nonHindu India which are decidedly `nonsecular` in tendency.

There are many underlying assumptions needing reexamination about the corporate propagation of religious narration and dogma as well as social reform, and focussing solely on the religious, social and political aspects of trends in Hinduism while of UTMOST urgency, will not alone suffice.

Re comparison with Pakistan is concerned, as far as lumpen mobilization/indoctrination is concerned I agree totally with your equivalence and comparison. Hordes of close-minded sociopaths taught to hate others and ready to destroy civil society to uphold seemingly religious causes held to be of `higher` priority is certainly the common link here as is the obfuscating pseudo-science practice of passing off concepts in ancient texts as deductive and reasoned scientific theory.

But let me point out a contrast too, here. In Pakistan, it is NOT an option to consider Muhammad the Holy Prophet as a historically or religiously insignificant figure nor can the events associated with him be considered nonhistoric/nonsignificant. There are laws and punishments prescribed against this deemphasis. Even those who assume office have to swear on the finality of the Prophet and those who hold passports have to sign an undertaking to this effect.

PS: A personal question, are you related to one of chowk`s very respected interactors :)?

``But, as part of the extra-curricular routine, the students are ‘regaled’ (her word not mine) with tales of brave Hindu warriors and saints, besides being encouraged to participate in quizzes in which questions and answers focus on the ‘ravages’ wrought by Muslim rule in India with particular reference to Emperor Babur`s alleged role in the demolition of the Hindu temple at Ayodhya - the source, you will recall, of the violent communal strife of the 1980s caused by the demolition of Babur’s mosque. (Incidentally, I have often wondered since whether this deed, as an act of religious vandalism with the additional cost of the loss of innocent lives, can be characterized as different from the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddha statues by Taliban fanatics in Afghanistan 20 years later?).``
Er, Rasheed, Babri masjid demolition did not happen 20 years ago in the 1980s as you say, but only ten years ago, on Dec 6, 1992.

Generally speaking, I strongly believe we Indians (both Hindus and Muslims) need to acknowledge the truth regarding muslim invaders destroying Hindu temples. This is a historical truth. We need to acknowledge it, and get past it. If the pseudo-seculars try to brush it under the carpet, then the Hindu extremist who raises this issue gains credibility for speaking the truth, while secularism suffers.
This is similar to the American history, where both whites and blacks acknowledge that the evil of slavery was practised, but now both are committed to equality.
In addition, Indians (of all castes) need to acknowledge the evil of casteism and the horrors perpetuated on dalits and other lower castes over the ages - I bet they were more terrible than any muslim invasion.
The point is Muslims, Hindu upper-castes, different linguistic groups and religious sects have all committed atrocities in the past over other groups of people in India. No group is `clean`, with the exception of dalits who have perennially been at the receiving end. We need to acknowledge what has happened, make remedies if possible, and move forward to a harmonius society. Not acknowledging past wrongs will not make them go away. Instead, it only aggravates the sense of being the `victim`, infuriates the regular, `normal`, secular Hindu and pushes him/her towards the extremists.

...in the meanwhile,


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...?artid=32448004

MUMBAI: What`s making the likes of Bill Gates, Rajat Gupta, Victor Menezes, and Vindi Banga gather in Silicon Valley in the second week of January? Some of the world`s highest-flying professionals are coming together to promote a brand — and no, it`s not a new, new, geeky thing.

It`s 50 years old, but this is the first formal attempt to create and promote awareness about the Indian Institutes of Technology, put together by IIT`s mega-watt celebrity alumni.

Says McKinsey`s Rajat Gupta, an alumnus of IIT Delhi, ``Brand IIT in general has lagged behind the quality of the alumni and it is time to correct this discrepancy.``

It`s perhaps most fitting that the 50th anniversary of the first IIT — IIT Kharagpur, which was set up at an erstwhile prison camp — should be celebrated in Silicon Valley, with American TV`s 60 Minutes and the world`s richest man in attendance.

After all, the IITs have produced the likes of Victor Menezes, vice-chairman of Citibank, Rajat Gupta, managing director of McKinsey, Kellogg Business School`s Mohanbir Sawhney, venture capitalist Kanwal Rekhi, Vinod Khosla, Former US Airways chief Rakesh Gangwal, MS `Vindi` Banga, chairman of HLL, Nandan Nilekani of Infosys... the list could go on. Not to mention that the Silicon Valley IIT alumni association can probably muster much larger numbers than Kharagpur`s.

``While an IIT is among the top five global educational institutions, an MIT or a Stanford are better recognised brands,`` says Silicon Valley-based Dilip Venkatachari, president Cashedge and a 1981 batch IIT Madras alumnus, who is one of the main co-ordinators of the event.

An aberration which the organisers of the IIT 50 hope will be corrected in the years to come. BusinessWeek, in a cover story, called IITians the ``hottest export from India.``

IIT50, largest event ever staged by all IITs under a common aegis over the 17th and 18th of Jan is an attempt to convert the success of IITians into lasting benefits and mindshare for the IITs themselves. Says NR Narayana Murthy, chairman Infosys and a speaker at IIT50, ``Brand promotion is important for every institution, including the IITs.``

Mr Narayana Murthy will share the podium with the likes of Bill Gates and John Hennessy, president of Stanford, among other guest speakers and alumni across all IITs.

The scale and importance being attached to the event can be seen by the fact that the directors of all the seven IITs (Kharagpur, Madras, Bombay, Kanpur, Delhi, Guwahati and Roorkee), are flying in for the occasion, and discuss their collective vision for the IITs.

And while it may be some time before Brand IIT acquires its rightful place in the pantheon of haloed academic institutions, there is no doubting that this January will see the congregation of some of the best and the brightest that India has produced to chart the course of Brand IIT.

...oh give it up...madrassahs have no equivalents....WHEN YOU SEE INDIANS FLYING PLANES INTO BUILDINGS IN OTHER COUNTRIES WE CAN DISCUSS THIS...

Unjust decision



I condemn the decision given by an Indian court to executethree alleged accomplices of those who attacked the Indian parliament on Dec 13 last year.

I think it is unfair to execute them on the charge that they helped the attackers who were shot dead during the attack.

UZAIR MEHDI LAKHANI

Karachi

Rasheed,

The above letter is from dawn of today. Pl do a researc on why the editors of dawn found it important to print it, why is this pakistani concerned about the execution of indians,...goes on. You are also with the same mind set, why is it relevant to compare the hindu schools with that in pakistan... Must have missed the train to pakistan.