Our Master Jallaludin Rumi

Jafri has written a beautiful piece. There is something that needs clarification though.
He says, ``Mavlana Rumi probably never believed in Shams death and therefore went two times to Damascus in search of him. It is said that once a person came to Mavlana and told him that he had seen Shams. Mavlana gave away his cloak to him upon which his son said that this man is lying only to make you happy. At which Mavlana said, “I have given away my robe for a lie, I would give my life for the truth.”
Well, Mevlana did in fact believe in Shams` death. Had he not believed that, why would have he said so to his son. He knew very well that Shams was no more alive. But his love for Shams did not allow Rumi to imagine him dead. That is the only reason that made him give away his cloak.
As for sending men to Damascus, it was not after Shams had been killed. He found out that Rumi`s disciples were extremely unhappy with him for having changed their master, a religous scholar of high standing, into a dervish who spet his time in singing and dancing like a mad man. Shams was forced to disappear for quite a while, which made Rumi miserable. On hearing that Shams had been seen in Damascus, he sent people to bring him back. Shams returned and again the two great Sufis were together only to be separated by Shams` death.

urstruly #42 I see you fell for it: I slipped that bit in about the verse to see how serious you are about understanding the Quran. Since if you were serious, you would not have replied this post which essentially says ``aha! you cant find the verse, so come back and talk to me when you find it``. Rather you would have tried to find it for yourself (since you have a copy of the Quran at home I am sure, and since I have no reason to spend my time providing you with adult education on the Quran), or at least focussed on the substance of what I wrote. But you took the loophole out rather than face the reality, which is that you and naqshbandhi have no clue what the Quran is all about even though you may have recited it a zillion times in Arabic.

: I am quite sure that there is a verse to this effect in the Quran

Thank you for your reply. Whenever you find time please find that verse. I will keep on reminding you.

urstruly #39 You said that what I wrote may be ``opinions and not reason`` and you ask me to show how it is based on the Quran. Fair enough. I will cut and paste what I wrote on #31 and show how it follows directly from the Quran:
I wrote : ``Your distinction between hadith qudsi and hadith nabawi challenges the integrity of the Quran.``
The reasoning here is as follows: If the Quran needs to be supplemented by the word of ``walis`` and suchlikes, then clearly it represents only a part of what was revealed to the Holy Prophet. And yet the Quran claims to reflect all that was revealed to the Prophet: I am quite sure that there is a verse to this effect in the Quran, but to locate the exact verse I would have to look it up which I am not inclined to do right now. Also, nowhere does the Quran provide even a hint that there may be other parts of the divine message that were conveyed to the Prophet that it (the Quran) does not contain.
I also wrote was: ``I as a muslim (that is, based on my reading of the Quran) believe that the Holy Prophet faithfully communicated what everything that was divinely revealed to him.``
The reasoning here is as follows: A messenger is expected to deliver the complete message. If for any reason he fragments the message, he would be expected to at least indicates where the remaining fragments are to be found.
I wont even get into the question of ``walis`` and pirs and maulvis and their followers. Suffice it to say: The Quran says that on the Judgement Day God will ask each individual ``Where are those men you look up to for guidance?`` (or words to this affect). The walis and maulvis wont be around to save their pious followers, per our muslim belief. They will be too busy saving their own hides.

What utter nonsense!!
This Talha Jafri should be stoned to death!! for making such blasphmous remarks.

++After Mavlana Rumi’s meeting with Shams, Mavlana said this about him “Today I have seen the God I have worshipped all my life in human form” and at another place he said that Shams was no ordinary beggar he looked, he was an educated and well off Chemist who had left his profession in search of the divine truth.++

NO ONE CAN SEE GOD!! Only our beloved Prophet (PBUH) saw him, after that no one else saw him.

This Jafri character is a hindu fashist who is trying to confuse our people.
Do not listen or pay attention to him. You will all burn in hell if you do. I command all true Muslims on Chowk.com to banish this infidel. He is a shaitan coming to confuse our people. He deserved death by stoning!!

I believe he is probably a hindu brahmin (BJP-RSS) in disguise. Go back to india you scoundrel!! We will certainly get you there!!

We do not believe you Sufi scoundrel!!!

Aise shaitan ko to hum bina bhoone hee kha jaaenge!!

tahmad32

I apologize for my harsh tone but I really did not understand your logic in post # 31. What you are saying in that post may be regarded as your opinions and not reason . Since you said in that post that you formed your opinion based on the study of Qura`n, I asked you to show me the reasoning through Qura`n. And if your reasoning is not based on Qura`n then you must say so. And if it is only an opinion then you should also say so without bringing the Qura`n in. As for opinions I can opine without spending a dime that earth is flat or Roman Empire never existed - my opinion might be of immense value to myself but without reason it amounts to nothing to anyone else. I am looking forward to your reply.

``So, if by ``Truth``, you mean insights then I am with you. But I will not go any further and I reject any man`s (or his followers) claim to have special mystical knowledge of things``

yup thats kinda like what i meant, though probably there is much more to what i am thinking
. and the point where u wont accept any man`s claim for mystical knowledge is ure point of view. WE differ only here.
Diverse opinions, are good for us as a whole. ;)

I have not said anything about anyone living in sin - that is not my business, nor of any interest to me. Our muslim belief (per the Quran, not per some Wali or Maulvi) is that it is for God, not man, to decide on such matters on the Judgement Day. Nor am I generalizing anything about 1 billion muslims - i am not in the business of generalizing anything about any community.
What I am saying relates to those who believe in hadith, and I have presented my reasoning on how belief in hadith by definition indicates a lack of faith in the integrity of the Quran and a questioning of the diligence with which the Holy Prophet carried out his task of conveying the divine message in a coherent manner via the Quran. You, like Naqshbandi, have avoided the reasoning presented there. You can avert your eyes to reality and to logic. You can run and seek refuge in the fact that there are many, many more people like you who believe in hadith. However, no one said that there is a shortage of irrational, slavish-minded, and/or hero-worshipping individuals among muslims. You can take refuge in their ranks, or you can use the mind God gave you and think for yourself.

talha #32 I am with you when you say we should respect men of learning. I should add that this is true not just for muslims (as you indicate) but for all progressive societies throughout history (Plato`s name still rings a bell through the millenia, and yet the rulers of his day are forgotten).
I disagree when you say that some men know the ``Truth``. Only God knows the ultimate Truth, and any man who claims otherwise is claiming divinity, and any man who accepts this claim is accepting this claim of divinity. So, if by ``Truth``, you mean insights then I am with you. But I will not go any further and I reject any man`s (or his followers) claim to have special mystical knowledge of things.

Tahmad32.... I am sorry but my reading of the Quran makes it clear that all that was to be revealed to the holy prophet is there in the Quran. And this point makes perfectly good sense when one understands exactly what it is that is revealed in the Quran: the Quran indicates (to those of us who believe in it) that one should have faith in one`s own eyes and ears ...............So, the Quranic message clearly calls for me to have faith in my God given faculties, in my common sense, and to thus go about living my life.
Those who believe in hadith seek to replace this message with relying upon the words of ordinary men. .

Please enlighten us how you have reached to that conclusion, with proper refernces to Qura`n, we, all 1 billion of us, might all be living a life of sin; you can save us.

Naqshbandi #33 I see that you avoid the serious issues I had raised with your line of thinking in my post #31, and instead try to steamroll your way through with more of the same, sprinkles liberally with ``Allahhu`s`` and other incantations. You are only deluding yourself, not impressing me. Islam is a code of conduct and character building, not a set of mindless magical incantations.

Status of Hadith and the Importance of Hadith
All things which Allah revealed to Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) are of two types. The first is through the Mala’ik, meaning Jibreel (AS) which we call Wahi-Jalee . Jalee means open (revelation) through the Angel. And these revelations together are called Qur’an Majeed. The second type is when Allah speaks directly to the qalb (heart) of His Rasul (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) without the Angel and it is called Wahi-Khafee and this is the form of the Hadiths. Whatever Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) said was, in fact, from Allah, because Allah says in Holy Qur’an:

``He does not speak from his hawaa (desire); it is nothing except Wahee revealed to him.``
[Surah an-Najm 3-4]
Tafsir - This means that whatever comes on the tongue of Sayyidina Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) whether speaking to his wives, the Sahabi, or others, all is from Allah. Hazrat Abdullah bin Umar (Radhi Allahu Anh) used to record every word of Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam). Some people advised him that he should not record everything that he said because Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) may say this in a state of happiness or sadness and they should not be recorded. But, Hazrat Ibni Umar (Radhi Allahu Anh) did take their advice and he ceased to record everything that Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) said in his presence by pen and paper. So, he went to Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) and told him that people had suggested to him to stop writing everything that the Rasul (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) had said, so he asked if he should continue. And his answer was that Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) pointed with his finger to his mouth and said, ``I swear by the One who gave me life that whatever comes from my mouth is nothing but Haqq, no matter what state I am in.`` Hadith Sharif is very important because Sayyidina Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) gave permission to record the Hadiths. This means that he gave an order to Ibni Umar (Radhi Allahu Anh) and the order of the Holy Nabi (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) is Fardh. This Hadith is in the Sahih Ibni Dawud. [Arabic p. 514]

Hazrat ‘Ali bin Abu Taleb (Karam Allah Wajhu) had a book in which a few Hadiths of Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) were recorded in which there were a few examples of diyat (compensation) (If a man kills someone deliberately, Qisas can be required [Fardh]. If they request money, this is Badila Suhas, or blood money. If someone is accidentally killed, Qisas is nor Fardh, but diyat becomes Fardh. Diyat is a fixed amount; 100 camels for a male and 50 camels for a female or a monetary equivalent. But can be remitted). This book (Sufu Waraqa) was kept in the sheath of his (Radhi Allahu Anh) sword; This was only a few pieces of paper, not like the books today; so in that book, he wrote that if a person has a lot of credit and he has not returned the money to the creditor and the creditor insists on getting his money, then if a Muslim assists him, it explains the reward he will receive. It was also written in this book that if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, then Qisas is not due. From this, we have proof that the Sahabi Ikram (Radhi Allahu Anh) used to record Hadith of Sayyidina Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam). [Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. I, p. 21]

Al-Hadith is the commentary and explanation of Al-Qur’an al-Majeed. From the Holy Qur’an, which says:


``We have revealed the Qur’an to you that you may comment on it an explain it.``
(This ayat explains the necessity for al-Hadith). For this reason, the Sahaba found it important to narrate Hadiths as they are the explanation of the Holy Qur’an.
...the Hadith have been recorded in all periods of the Sahaba (Radhi Allahu Anh), Tabi’een, and Tabat-Tabi’een. And to believe in the Holy Qur’an without accepting the Hadiths makes one a Kafir, because Allah says you should explain the Holy Qur’an to the people. And if the Hadith is not the explanation of the Holy Qur’an, then where is the explanation? All Hadiths given were from Sahih al-Bukhari.

In the Qur’an al-Majeed, Allah Ta’ala says that we must perform Hajj, Salaat, and so forth, but it is not mentioned HOW to do these acts. This if found in Al-Hadiths. That person who does not believe in Hadiths, but believes in Holy Qur’an will find it impossible for him to practice the ‘Ilm in the Holy Qur’an without the guidance of the Hadiths.


http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hadith/ilm_hadith.html

#28 by tahmed32
Every man is not a Sufi, but yes it can be said that every seeker of the ``Truth`` is a sufi.

``By all means learn from sufis, but dont think that they are infallible or in possession of any more knowledge than you have at your fingertips``

I learnt my maths from a maths teacher not from my French teacher. Likewise a Buddhist doesnt go to MIT or Waterloo to learn his ``subject`` he goes to a teacher/guide who knows the esoteric aspects of Buddhism, who has gone through that spirituality and has NOT merely talked of it.
Dont tell me u were born with ure knowledge. Everyone acquires it from someone.From whom and how do u learn to achieve Divine nearness ?
I know of a Sufi who was a student of Dalai Lama and many other traditional teachers, they all learn from one another. The aim is to learn the Truth, its a hadith (not quoting exact words here) that knowledge is like a lost camel for a believer, reclaim it where ever u find it.
The point is to recieve the Knowldge from where ever it comes, provided its the Truth.
Yeah but all this doesnt mean that u and I are in anyway lower beings. We all have the capabilty to become ``teachers``.
Why people like Rumi are shown respect is only because its a mulsim tradition from the times of the Prophet(PBUH) to show respect to the learned. Why wouldnt i respect a person who loves all humans and their Creator? A person with whom if i sit only for a moment brings peace to my mind, this is just one minor reason people love their Spiritual guides.
Its not only Rumi who should be respected but also scholars and Scientists(we harldy have any these days). Unfortunately this tradition is forgotten in most Islamic societies.
Peace

urstruly #29 you write ``Hadis-e-Qudsi by definition are revelations just as Qura`nic verses``
I am sorry but my reading of the Quran makes it clear that all that was to be revealed to the holy prophet is there in the Quran. And this point makes perfectly good sense when one understands exactly what it is that is revealed in the Quran: the Quran indicates (to those of us who believe in it) that one should have faith in one`s own eyes and ears and common sense; to remember why God created man (i.e. to learn about His creation, in other words to gain knowledge); to treat all men as equals and to avoid hero-worship of any kind; and certain important values like living in peace and with forgiveness, being honest and just.
So, the Quranic message clearly calls for me to have faith in my God given faculties, in my common sense, and to thus go about living my life.
Those who believe in hadith seek to replace this message with relying upon the words of ordinary men. Too often I have heard the followers of hadith tell me ``I know it does not make much sense, but that is hadith, so what can I do?`` To these people I say: if you do something that does not make sense, or something that violates your sense of right and wrong, or indicates lack of compassion, or lack of respect for life, then by definition you are violating the message of the Quran. You are using the hadith as an excuse to avoid standing up to conventional wisdom that has been drilled in your mind since childhood.
So, you are welcome to believe in hadith. That is your choice. I consider it a violation of the integrity of the basic message of the Quran to substitute my common sense with hadith of any kind. It is this substitution of common sense with hadith that promotes the lack of rational thinking that has made muslims the world over among the most backward on earth in terms of education, political and social development.
Naqshbandi #30 Your distinction between hadith qudsi and hadith nabawi challenges the integrity of the Quran. I as a muslim (that is, based on my reading of the Quran) believe that the Holy Prophet faithfully communicated what everything that was divinely revealed to him. If I accept your distinction, then the implication is that the Holy Prophet did not faithfully do his job as messenger, and so the Quran is deficient. And requires the assistance of walis and suchlikes who claim the Prophet fragmented his communication and told them some things he did not put down in the Quran.
Please reflect upon this. I know it will be hard for you to accept this since you are so deeply steeped in hadith and walis and so forth. But perhaps one day many years from now you will understand what I am trying to explain to you.

Thanks Urstruly bhai :-)

***
tahmad: this is for you:

``The difference between Hadith Qudsi and Hadith Nabawi is that while Hadith Nabawi are sayings of the blessed Prophet Sallallahu `alaihi wa Sallam, Hadith Qudsi is what Allah has communicated to him through revelation, inspiration, or in a dream, and the beloved Prophet has then communicated it in his own words. The Qur`an is of course superior to Hadith Qudsi because besides being revealed, it is Allah`s own Word.``

(http://www.iqra.net/Salawaat/majmuah/majmuah5.html

tahmad # 27

You have selectively quoted Naqshbandi to twist the meanings of what he means. You selected Like Allah says in the hadith to spin, whereas what Naqshbandi has written is Like Allah says in the hadith ``qudsi`` . There is hell lot of difference between two statements. Hadis-e-Qudsi by definition are revelations just as Qura`nic verses but when editing and collating of Qura`n and Hadith were being done under the supervision of Holy prophet (pbuh) he instructed to keep certain verses separate from Qura`n and include them in Hadith. A collection of such Ahadith is called Ahadith-e-Qudsi.

Now with this information you might be able to appreciate what he has written. Please at least read history of compilation of both Qura`n and Hadith before issuing your fatwas like jahil mullahs whom you abhore so much.