History Rehearsing: Dark Ages of Islam

good self-reflection

if more muslims do such self-criticism, it will help them get out of the mullah-imposed moral blockades.

Mr Nadeemkhan,

I do not get you? Now this query and comments are disorganised you have so thoroughly confused me that I am not able to understand your position? Are you Hindu or Muslim. Pakistani or Indian. Islam lover or Hater. You seem some type of Muslim equivalent of Fundamentalist Protestant Black Christian. Problem with Hindu as religion but Proud of some mythical ancestry of Indu and Proud of Islam but problem with Arabia and Syed. And positively hostile to Bengalis and South Indians. (Come to think of it there are South Indians and North Indians the only East Indians are what we are called in America and West Indians actually a little East of that led till recently by one BrianLara). If I have one fear in Life is the South Indians and the Gujjus and Maharashtra and South MP and Orissa will Secede from India an we would be left with the northern badlands. Agreed there is one problem with Bengalis that they elect Commies but thats different.

Now let anyone call himself Sayeed how does it matter. Jats are physically big people the only people of this size in Gujarat are Patels, durbars, Thakore and OBC Rajputs. Gandhi was a Baniya and the only Kshatriya Banias are Marwaris. We have Hindu Punjabi Gandhi`s though the only ones I have met are Khatris not Jats. And I am sorry Gandhi was as tall as a 12 yr old Jat. So it is difficult to imagine him let alone call him one.

BTW one could understand your dislike of Bengalis for secession but what in the world have southerners done to you. Also Tipu Sultan unlike his father was a mass murderer so how can you call him a hero unless converting people by sword is your idea of being a hero or because the people he mass murdered were Tamilians and Coorgis and Kanndigas and Malyalis all South Indians whom you hate so much?

Also Aryan Invasion theory has been broken and what was supposed to be Indus Valley may well turn out to be Saraswati Valley initial data points to that?

Sir jee:

i am not struggling by any means; I said I was sorry to belittle others religion and that is the extent of my apology...

Jat and Gujjars are more readily assocaited with Punjabis than Sindhi or Pahans.. I have quoted a reliable source which establishes Gandhi as a Jat sub-caste...u have to come up with an equally good source ro be quier..there is a gentleman in faisalabad pakistan who claims to be a gandhi jat and I am sure there are more in east punjab if one waw to ask them..1883 was not the kind of year tha Gandhi was an household name...Gujraati is not a caste as is Punjabi or Sindhi...think about it

re:#80 by nadeemkhan
Khan Miyan,
I see you struggling in a quicksand and slowly going down. Gandhi was a punjabi! And now this pearl, ``By punjabi I mean the Indus valley civilization... punjbis being the dominant``
At least, you are making some Indian punjabis on chowk happy i hope. But please stop making an A$$ of yourself.
Sridhar

By punjabi I mean the Indus valley civilization... punjbis being the dominant...Gujrati is not a caste as Sindhi or Punjabi is not...There are Balochs in unjba that congregated in this area when anarchy was the order of the day..similarly in Sindh, there are Baluchs, and Punjabis....Mahras and Jatois...

It was presumptious on my part to declare Gandhi a Punjabi, maybe an Indu and not Hindu is in order..there is a difference between the inhabitants of Indus valley and Hindus ( primarily due to the color of their skin) Hundus or Hindis as referred to by Persians are people of dark color..

why would would elevn percent of Punjabi based Jats returned as Gandhi in 1883, long before Mahatama (sic) Gandhi was to to take the mantle...
none of the Gandhi lovers and the great Sayyeds have bothered to answer that?

re: hindu ki aulad

thanks for enlightening me, especially enjoyed the janj breaking part.

Honourless Syed is away with the fairies.What I would like to know about the rest,who seem to be sane, is how you know about the sex life of Hindus when most of you seem to hardly know any of them.
Nadeemkhan,Gandhi was a Gujarati and a bania.Why don`t you read The Story of My Experiments with Truth,it might stop you from making embarassing mistakes like that?
I can`t believe Pakistanis,not only do you pretend you know more about Indian food than Indians,you try to make it look like you know more about Gandhi than Indians do.I had every little bit of his biography drilled into my head as a schoolgirl.
Tipu Sultan was not only Indian,he was South Indian-yes,from invader stock,but so are most people,including Indians, in some way or the other.
When you find nothing of substance to say,all you can think of is meaningless vitriol.What`s wrong with you guys,think of imaginative abuse if you`re going to use it.Why bring down the level of the debate if you have nothing to say?Stand near the Wagah border and scream instead.But I forget that most of you are too comfortably rugged up in the West,taking the abuses Westerners throw at you everyday, to bother about travelling the long road to Wagah.Why bother?

In resp to nadeemkhan
Well nadeemkhan if you read my post closely it will answer all the questions that you have posed, its a matter of looking for them. Concering tipu sultan, well his genealogy is rigorously authenticated, and he is very far from being a punjabi. He in fact is one of the ``INVADER`` type muslims, from Makkah. Now if he is from Makkah, then it defuncts your theory of all Muslims claiming to be of arab descent, where in fact they are children of converts. Now another important flaw in your argument is that you say if we are born and bred in the subcontinent, then we should stop looking for our ancestors in arabia, well in that case tipu sultan and his father were born and bred in the deccans, then why should we look for his ancestors in punjab, where his great grandfather spent some time of his life. Now to the matter of Syeds, yes there are several fake ones, but that doesnt mean all are fake, there have been several notable Syeds, whose genealogies are unquestionable, and in one of my posts in chowk, i have given several examples, if required i can provide them again.

r.a.janjua:

do u know your history before you can question someones elses...Janjuas of the salt range were the Rajputs of Bhatnair who were kicked out of their kin as no lands were available for them to rule...they settled in Malot, a place about 30 km of Choa Saidan Shah and about 20 km of Kalar Kahar...the Rajput kings ruled till the time Shahabuddin Ghouri came around and defeated Ghaggars and Rajputs...the Rajput King in defiance to his change of faith. i.e from Hindu to Muslim broke off the traditional Janj, the necklace worn by Rajuputs, and hence were known as Janjuas, or the ones who broke the Janj...the janjuas and the chaudries of Chakwal were amongs the foremost who presented cash and kind to Babar once he was in Kalar Kahar...

So Mr. R.A.Janjua go and figure who is who?

So am I Naqashbandi bhai, it was a certain statement by someone which go me all fired up and I ended up disrespecting a religion..something that I despise myself...I am sorry to all who I have offended with my callous remarks about their dieties...

But as far as Tipu Sultan, Gandhi, and Sayyeds, I stand by my words and I would ask my detractrors to contact me personally than via Chowk

Whilst I am guilty of being insenstive to Hindu sentiments, for which I have apologized in my last post, none of the so called intellectuals have yet responded to my post about Gandhi being a sub-caste of Jats and Jats and Gujjars being the original tribes who ousted the Darvadians from Indus valley...

Now this Mr. Janjua, a descendant of a convert himself is trying to sound so articulate...For history of Janjuas please refer to me in private and I will tell you all about it...

As for Honorable_Syed and his contention of deen being jeopardized if we were to find our fathers in the sub-continent has not addressed the common adage of the mid 19th century about the Weaver and Sayyed...200 years later who is a Sayyed and a Julaha, only All Mighty can tell...

As for Ferzok, he has to sell his letters to make a living otherwise why would he pretend to be a liberal when he is an autrocrat in his on own home...

And as for Q.Isa Daudpota, his present occupation with and education system what people call the ``poultry farm`` of children says it all... why would a Physicist would like to associate himself with a feudal educational system that teaches children the capital of US before the meaning of Islam...
I may sound a bit off the wall, but then the truth hurts

And so it does for the Janj breaking Janjuas, and the well placed Daudpotas...

re: 51

your great-grandfather was most probably a hindu banya also - you think your ancestors had no sense of honor, dignity or chivalry? they learnt it after conversion to islam? - and who do you think defeated the sikh army in the 1840s, pathans?

rsaxena/rsridahr--I **personally** have not said anything offensive about any of the hindu deities so i was enraged when rsaxena insulted our beloved Prophet alayhisalatuwasalam.

**

Brother Nadeem--that is the reason the Qur`an sharif tells us not to insult the deities of other religions even if they are pagans because then they will insult Allah and His Beloved sal allahu alayhi wa sallam back and nauzubillah nauzubillah we might be held responsible.

**

Once a woman and her lover were in bed when suddenly her husband came back. He started beating the sh1t out of lover with punches left and right. The woman got out of the bed and started yelling: ``khoob mar salay ko, dosroN ki maaN behN ko jhansa de ker izzat loot`ta hae``.

After a while the husband got tired but lover still had energy left so now lover started beating the shi1t out of her husband throwing punches left and right. She was still watching and started yelling: ``na harami khood kuch karta hae na kisi aur ko karnay deta hae. Mar khoob mar harami ko``.


Lets see how this fight develops. Thus far 1:1.

re: your various stupid posts
I do not know where you live but i can safely guess that it must be somewhere in Pakistan near the Afghan border. That is where they peddle the stuff that you are smoking now.
You are so deluded and as someone nicely put it, in a ``ghetto`` of your own making.

``...and it is no wonder that while the rest of the mankind is talking of super computers and space you and you kin still worship the genital of a man that you call a god...``
Since you sound like a rabid mullah, i will not waste my time trying to explain my religion to you. Did you know that India builds supercomputers? How could you? You need to stop smoking the ``stuff`` and smell the SHIT in your Sherwani. That will wake you up. And talking of Space, India is sending indigeously built satellites into space and has made a name in ``remote sensing`` capabilities.
India`s Supercomputers:
http://www.pcquest.com/content/Supercomputer/102051008.asp
Excerpts:

1. ``It is not that supercomputers are the domain of only the affluent nations. India has a fair number of supercomputing installations engaged in everything from aircraft and missile design to weather forecast to academic research. More than that, many of these are home-grown designs of high-performance clusters.``

2. ``The most famous of the made-in-India supercomputers is the Param (Parallel Machine) from C-DAC. But the Param is not the only supercomputer to be built in India. There are at least three other independent efforts at building supercomputers that have been successful. There is the Flosolver (now the SuperSolver) from Hindustan Aeronautics, Bangalore; the Anupam from BARC Bombay; and Anurag from DRDO, Hyderabad. And all of them taken together, along with the few commercially-available supercomputers, should add up to at least thirty to forty supercomputer installations in the country.``

Architect of PARAM supercomputer says: India can simulate ``nuclear explosion`` using supercomputers:
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0698/0011.html
Looks like worshippers of Monkey God and Penis God are way ahead of the betel nut chewing, scrotum scratching mullahs.
Sridhar

re:#65 by m_souza
In more than subtle ways, Indian culture is finding some acceptance in USA. I watched ``Dilwale Dulhaniyan le jayenge``, a Bollywood movie that has a hero who is muslim in reality and with most conversation in easily understood Urdu. Ismail Merchant (another muslim) was the guest who introduced these movies. The movie easily straddles West and the East. TCM channel is showing Hindi movies as a celebration of Bollywood Classics every Thursday night. And more and more Americans are learning the name of these movies.
What does it all tell you?
In today`s times, when one religion is saying it is O.K to kill others, where exclusivity is the norm, where only certain ideas are right and the rest, wrong, India seems to show a common path. And one can see a glimpse of that in these movies, where the Western and easten values integrate effortlessly. When did you last hear a Shankaracharya saying movies are bad or how we should dress etc? Did you not hear what mullahs are doing in NWFP in Pakistan? Posters of models are being torn down or blackened. Shariat law going to be enforced soon.

Over the centuries, Hindu thought process has assimilated the best. It has also been carrying some bad baggage which it is trying to shed but that is another story. But ``Sanatana Dharma`` has never stood in the way of free thought and material progress. While talking about highest goal of life, it also talks about mundane matters. Of what use is a religion if all it does is to give rise to rabid preachers who spread hatred against other people like the mullahs are doing today. They do it in the name of their religion.
We, as Indians took to secularism, democracy, and more recently free-market, all western concepts and moulded them to our way of life. Our religion did not pose any hinderance to this. Look at the Islamic nations who are struggling with the concept of democracy and how Islam is unable to reconcile to the very idea.
We need to celebrate our religion, which to me is not a religion at all but a Spiritual free market. Religion binds you to certain dogmas. Spirituality is free of all dogmas. When i read some posts from Pakis criticising Hinduism, i only pity them. They need to introspect about themselves. It is they who are under a microscope today.
Those in Chowk who make fun of our Gods do not understand that they are making fun of themselves. They have been left far behind in the race.
Sridhar

re:#64 by Naqshbandi
You get what you give. You give some respect to our feelings, then we will respect your`s. So far i have steadfastly avoided criticising your Prophet or your religion. Such a conviction comes from a deeper understanding of Spirituality and the realisation that religion is just a guide map and there are different paths to the same God. When you guys realise that, perhaps you will also respect my religion. We are not here to prove my religion is better than yours. We are all on the same boat here.
Sridhar

#64 by Naqshbandi on June 15, 2003 4:27pm PT
rsaxena you hindu c**ks**ker--if you ever said that in front of me i would cut out your filthy tongue! How dare you insult our Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

------

rsaxena...


This chowk..whose title is ``At chowk all are welcome to read write and think``
here I have come across the filthiest things written about Hindus...hindu Gods..hindu women and no one censors them. The chowk staff nevers censors it.

I personally feel Hindus should not interact with Muslims at chowk. This chasm and gap between the minds of the two is too wide to be filled. Should stop visiting chowk.
Anyway, I will.
(now the muslims will write..okok get lost..who wants u to write)

In resp to nadeemkhan:
``Honorable_Syed: It is about time that we stop looking for our fathers in Arabia and Persia. There is a famous saying: ``I am a julaha (weaver) this year, if crops do well I will be Shekh next year, and if the prices are right a Sayyed the year afer``. It is an historical fact, if you want I can send you the references..

Shaik Wali Mohammad may have been from Arabia, but his prodigy was born and bred here in the sub-continent and he ended up in Sub-continent, making him an Indian (not Bharatian) and not an Arab.. ``

Well brother you are the one who went ranting about the ancestory of Tipu Sultan (Foolishingly claiming Tipu sultan is a punjabi), and you were absolutely wrong, to the extent that peple will make fun of you, if you utter this in public. As to your comment of tipu sultan being an indian, again it`s important that we expand it a little more and call Tipu Sultan a Muslim Indian, there is a definite distinction, and the fact that his ancestors were from Makkah, prevents the hindus from bragging about these ``so called conversions`` as well. We as Muslims have to stop discriminating amongst ourselves, because when we Muslims came and conquered ``Hind``, we brought with us the most egalitarian religion that exists, and when many of the hindus, esp the lower castes saw the beauty of our deen, they embraced Islam and continue to do so, because they got all the rights which hinduism prevented them from having. And the rasool e kareem Muhammad saws strictly forbade us from tribalism and racism, as this will take us back to the days of the jahilliyah.

As to your comment of us stopping from looking for our ancesators in arabia, well we as Syeds can`t because of the obligations our deen imposes on us, i.e. no zakaat, etc.. Hence our ancestory is extremely important as it affects the practise of our deen.

naqshabandi

...you little jehadi cockroach, why is it ok for you to write stuff like the post below from nadeemkhan but when someone slaps you back, you want to blow something up?...you should be locked in a box and handed over to rumsfeld and ashcroft...

#50 by nadeemkhan on June 14, 2003 11:46am PT

``No wonder you Hindus, despite of centuries of co-habitation have failed to recognize the strength of Muslims...and it is no wonder that while the rest of the mankind is talking of super computers and space you and you kin still worship the genital of a man that you call a god...no wonder...it is all that vegetables and saphron that you consume that taint your rational thinking...maybe, and just maybe one of these days, when you realize that human body parts are not worthy of worship,``

rsaxena you hindu c**ks**ker--if you ever said that in front of me i would cut out your filthy tongue! How dare you insult our Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

Gandhi was actually chinese...-:))) Haven`t you people heard of Gan-ji or in Japan Mei-ji rebellions? Dhoti is actually modification of kimono, so is sari whereas shalwar originated when people have to run instead of walking and ride on horses. The pants came out of people who have to run faster, and still running faster....underwears were invented by ??? pretending hiding something they ain`t got...........::))

[It does not matter who Tipu Sultan`s ancestors were but they took pride in calling themselves Afghans and history books also refer to them Afghan rulers of Mysore. Same is true about Siraj ud Daula. Persians usually looked down upon Persian speaking Afghans through long history and both Mir Jafar and Mir Sadiq happened to be of Persian ancestry.]

I think nadeemkhan is confusing bakra with bakri. The bakra in Panjabi songs such as ``putt jattaN de banaunday bakray`` is not the male counterpart of Gandhi`s companion....::))))

Ferzok=F.R.Khan?

Are you trying to secure brownie points for poor rating of you ``original`` article?

Regarding Gandhi ethnicity: Please note the people who displaced the Darvadians, the South Indians that rsaxena so proudly mentions, were Aryans, Jats (the tillers) Gujjars (the graziers), Brahmins and Rajuputs were the offsprings of a structured society that replaced Darvadians in the Indus Valley. (Read unabridged version of Gita). These two tribes moved northwards and eastwards. The Gujjars found in Swat valley as as much Swatis as the next person and the Jats in Gujarat are as much Gujrati as the Patels living there. In the census conducted by British Raj in 1883, and results published by Sir Denzil Ibbeston, K.C.S.I, eleven percent of all Jats living in Punjab( United Punjab that is, with parts of Haryanan, NWFP) declared their sub-caste as Gandhi.

Honorable_Syed: It is about time that we stop looking for our fathers in Arabia and Persia. There is a famous saying: ``I am a julaha (weaver) this year, if crops do well I will be Shekh next year, and if the prices are right a Sayyed the year afer``. It is an historical fact, if you want I can send you the references..

Shaik Wali Mohammad may have been from Arabia, but his prodigy was born and bred here in the sub-continent and he ended up in Sub-continent, making him an Indian (not Bharatian) and not an Arab..

Ferzok: I know what a ghetto is, and I would rather live in a ghetto than a world governed by moderinists who are considered by their respective populace as incorrigibly corrupt and hopelessly incompetent. It is no wonder that the followers of Jinnah, Nehru, Kamal, Suakarno, moderinsts in their own might, gave way to the followers on the horseback, BJP and MMA rose from the ashes of Indira Gandhi, Shastri, and relatively unknown and unaccounted for moderinists in Pakistan. The failure of these leaders to alleviate the one problem haunting the masses of sub-continent-poverty, gave rise to religioius fundamentalism...who offered scapegoats, divine intervention and absolution...the modernists meanwhile brushed these relgious zelaots as being trivial..However, the time was on their side and first the BJP and now MMA have surfaced as a force to reckon with...

#56 nb

The last of our heroes was Ashoka the Great, who was truly the son of soil...the Scythians, the Greeks, the Arabs,the Afghans, the Moguls, and Brits were all conquerers and not one of us. Chandar in Sanskrit and Mahtab in Persian means the same, yet the Muslims would name their children Mahtab, and Hindus Chandar. Neither would dare to cross the ``religous`` line. Persian was as much an Indian language as Sanskrit have been...

Shivaji was not a hero by any means; he introduced a novel way of taxing his subjects that was unheard of before his time...he would abandon his areas and its inhabitants, burn crops and grain depots, and leave the inhabitants starving and helpless to face the wrath of Aurangzeb`s advancing armies...

re: nadeemkhan # 50

Does the word ``ghetto`` mean anything to you?

You are mentally living in one, in case you did not notice it!

Ciao

Yeh sab kya ho raha hai?
On one hand you have nadeemkhan going off about Gandhi being a Punjabi and a Jat.How did an introspective article give rise to posts like this?I would recommend Liberty and Death by Patrick French for you;the first chapter is Two Men From Gujarat-one of whom is a certain former inhabitant of Malabar Hill,related to Nusli Wadia,the second,of course is Gandhi.They spoke to each other in Gujarati....Don`t call him Mahatma if you insist,it`s not like it matters.The poor man got abused from both sides.nehru was a Brahmin but that doesn`t mean you just ignore him.
What has South and the Bengali babus to offer? other than famine, intrigues, conspiracies, and deceits
I get your point.The only worthwhile people on the planet are Pakistani Punjabis and Sindhis.High time the others got the point too.The Bangladeshis got the point and pinged off,I admit with a little help,but once they had seen the light,I doubt anything could have stopped them.They didn`t want to hold Pakistan back from being a world superpower.Very considerate of them too.
Stop attacking Shivaji all the time,he did what he neded to protect his land.Why is guerilla warfare holy when the Taliban uses it against the Russian army yet you call Shivaji a thief for doing the same thing?Shivaji and Rani Lakshmibai are the only Hindu heroes that you know of,that doesn`t mean they are the only ones,period.I refuse to give you a history class-you are not willing to learn anything that contradicts your theories.
How was Rajiv Gandhi`s assassination bravery?that too Hindu bravery?
Pakistanis have this obsession with banias being devious and cunning.Like all good businessmen,including most Punjabis I know,some banias are.One the other hand,some are,shall we say,simple.Your statement is typical of seeing yourself as a victim,being taken advantage of by less principled people,in your case,Hindus.It didn`t happen like that.The British had help from all religions and all parts of society-they colonised minds so well that most of the colonised didn`t realise it was going on.The British did look down on banias but then the British looked down on all natives,with a few exceptions who were considered honorary Englishmen,and even then they were pointed out as examples of how civilising British influence was.Or are we going to hear that your great-grandfather was best friends with the Governor of Punjab 100 years ago and it was a truly equal relationship?I`ve only read extracts from Niall Ferguson`s new book but I think you might find it interesting,once you`ve finished catching up with irrelevant bits of information such as Gandhi`s ethnicity.
Rail on about Sunnis and Shias all you want but try not to make such big mistakes.
The unfortunate author of this article is trying to bring your attention to some problems Islam faces NOW and the parallels it has in history.It`s much easier to go off on a tangent and abuse your neighbour than take a long look at yourself.And don`t say Indians need to do that too.We`re masters of analysing and criticising ourselves to death.
Studebaker/Tipu,what are you so upset about?I can see you feel misunderstood and hurt but please don`t just go off at people.What did all that mean?

what were you smoking when you wrote this?

re: nadeemkhan


{will appreciate the finer things in life like a well done beef steak or a widow opting for a husband and not a pyre... }

...when will you learn to appreciate the beauty of not flying planes into buildings, blowing yourself up, not having honor killings of women, and finding a prophet other than a pedophile who got it on with a 9-year-old?...

re: nadeemkhan

{What has South and the Bengali babus to offer? other than famine, intrigues, conspiracies, and deceits }

...the ``south and bengali babus`` in the past 4 years have won a nobel prize and started indian IT companies whose combined market capitalization is more than that of pakistan`s entire stock market...

...what have you accomplished in that time?...a few suicide bombings, expertise in terrorism, a military coup, implementation of sharia in NWFP, and getting on the FBI`s most watched list...

..congratulations....muahahhhahah

it is humming, not the bird

There is a hum going on in pakistan, one can hear it every where, where pakistanis are. It was heard in NWFP last week when a bus load of police cadits were blown up. It was the last sound heard by the french engineers. Omar sheikh was ferreted out by the pakis after a hijack to put the last hum to the ears of daniel pearl. Kashmiri pundits have escaped from kashmir so that they can sleep easy with out the hum. Yes pakisrtanis are humming, the ones that stream out of the madrassas are humming louder, k..ill...kill...k..i..l..l.

In resp to brother nadeem khan,
Brother, i respectuflly disagree with you, as you have gotten a lot of things mixed up, regarding Muslim history in the subcontinent. Let me first clarify to you as to the acnestory of Tipu Sultan.

SHAIK WALI MUHAMMAD belonged to a respectable family of Mecca. He was well placed in life. But and suddenly things changed. The Shaik`s business failed and he found it hard to keep up position. So he decided to migrate to some other land with his wife and children he came to Baghdad and settled there. Here also he met nothing but disappointment at last he decided to go to India.
A month later the Shaik was in the Punjab. Here he feared better. However the Shaik was not very satisfied and he migrated to Gulbarga.
At Gulbarga the Shaik did very well and he decided to make it his hometown. His grandson Shaik Fateh Muhammad was a promising youth. This young man succeeded in getting a good rank in the army of the Maharaja of Mysore. After the Shaik`s death the family moved into Mysore State.
FATEH MUHAMMAD rose to a high rank and became a well-to-do man. He had a son Haider Ali by name. The boy was only five years of age when Fateh Ali was killed in a battle. The little boy suddenly found himself fatherless. Before long he began to feel the sting of poverty. The comforts of early childhood were gone. He was not even sent to school. In fact he never learnt how to read and write. His mother wanted him to learn a trade. She wanted that he should add a little to the family earnings.
Haider Ali how ever wished to be a soldier. He had a great liking for the profession of his father. When Haider Ali took him to Serangapattam. Here the youth got military training. His rare ability soon attracted notice. Nand Raj, the Brahman Wazir of the Maharaja was much impressed by Haider Ali and gave him a high rank in the army. The wise Wazir was quick to see the unusual military talent of the young man. He wanted to make this talent an asset for his government.
Haider Ali married two wives. In 1753 the second wife bore him a son. The boy was named Fateh Ali Tippu Sultan. Tippan was the name of a well-known Muslim saint of South India. The little boy was named after him.

And brother, Gandhi was a gujurati, and not a punjabi.

Gandhi punjabi??!!
heard of Infosys?

All will be well soon.

Sharia in the Frontie etc....


Ras

All will be well soon.

Sharia in the Frontier etc....


Ras

Mr. Saxena:

It is you who is making an ass, and not in the proverbial sense or the one which appeared in Shrek, your post suggests that you are an ass in the real sense...

Qatar and UAE are being run by desposts, supported by US, just like the kings of Saudi Arabia...if it was a Shia Sunni affair, Iran would been the front line Shia state to offer assistance to US to dismantle the miniority Sunni regime in Iraq...

Simply because you have managed to log in to Chowk longer than I have does not mean that you have can think with you real head rather than your actual head which is much smaller...

No wonder you Hindus, despite of centuries of co-habitation have failed to recognize the strength of Muslims...and it is no wonder that while the rest of the mankind is talking of super computers and space you and you kin still worship the genital of a man that you call a god...no wonder...it is all that vegetables and saphron that you consume that taint your rational thinking...maybe, and just maybe one of these days, when you realize that human body parts are not worthy of worship, you will appreciate the finer things in life like a well done beef steak or a widow opting for a husband and not a pyre...

think about it saxena..

Hezbullah is Shia and Islamic Jihad is Sunni, yet they are both Palestinians and Muslime and therefore have a common cause...

Saxena sb: to understand Muslim way of thinking you have to believe in what they believe life after death...not the reincarnatin as your kind believe...the only time you kind have demonstrated any courage was when they blew off Rajiv Gandhi, other than that Hindus have nothing to show for as far as chivalry or bravery is concerned...Marhattas were the thieves who had the advantage of the hill where they could retreat every time Aurgangzeb invaded their stronghold...and Hindu Banya, even by British accounts, was more interested in making money during the troubled times of mid 1800`s rather than taking sides with its kith and kin...Brits held you in contempt all throughout their `occupation` of this land yet they pampered you because Hindus were easy; and could be bought off compared to their Sikh or Muslim counterparts... Rani of Jhansi and Shivaji are your only heroes...Gandhi was jat by caste and a punjabi...nehru was brahman whose ancestors have lived on alms for as long as one can remember...
so dont tell me what to do..

Mahatma (if you insist) Gandhi, a jat of Punajbi persuassion liberated the Darvidians of South, the mongrels of UP, MP and AP, and paved the way for Northerns, Pakistanis included, to demand their separate homeland...

Tipu Sultan, the hero of Deccan, was a descendant of Punabi father, who had migrated from Chiniot years before his and Subuktigian`s birth

Guru Nanak was a punjabi so was Ranjit Singh the one and only Punjabi ruler of Punjab

What has South and the Bengali babus to offer? other than famine, intrigues, conspiracies, and deceits

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re: nadeemkhan

{the Shias and Suunis of Iraq has demonstrated for the rest of the world that in the hour of despair Muslims are a singular force and not divided as the West or Hindus would like everyone to believe... }

...then why was the US given military bases in Qatar and the UAE to launch attacks on iraq?....please don`t make an ass of yourself...better to remain quiet...

why studebaker; is it the car that was destined to be written off by the historians as an automoble which was not safe?

#43
What? Grow up and eat oysters, it would release you ``tension``!

studebaker:

Why do all non-muslims find it conveniet to dissect Muslims...BBC and CNN did that, the Hindus do that, and so does rest of the world...A muslim is a muslim and Shia and Sunni do not matter when it comes to confronting the invader, infidel if you may... the Shias and Suunis of Iraq has demonstrated for the rest of the world that in the hour of despair Muslims are a singular force and not divided as the West or Hindus would like everyone to believe...

this artice is plain gibberish, insult on intelligence, piece of story-telling and does not deserve the space it has recieved.

what happened with mr amir is that this idea spooked up in his mind and then he streched all facts to somehow align them with his idea. september 11th was a act of 20 individuals, it was not act of all 57 muslim states. how can he equate action of two dozen individauls with a community of 1.2 billion.

Amir states `` 1991, in a fit of anger, the President of the United States, supported economic sanctions on Iraq``. What should not be dragged in this discussion is first gulf war. a muslim state was invaded by another muslim state, that was no crusade, it was saddam`s lack of common sense.

Over the last 10 odd years, all attacks on american lives and interests have been carried out by al-qaeda. Be it the bombing of american embassies in africa, blowing up american ships in yemen to the september 11th, these were all actions of al-qaeda. So to me this is not a crusade, it is war between america and al-qaeda.

Mr Amir writes ``It was a call marked by ambiguous, barely legitimate, holy language, ``Fi sabillillah`` (For God!); and it energized the demure landscape of the Muslim world. Businessmen, ex-army generals, media moguls, and the destitute picked up their lives and pressed their anger against the West``. I am not sure which world is he living in but on planet earth nothing like this happened. People all over the world, including muslims, watched the afghanistan war on TV, sipped some tea and went to sleep. There were some protests but that is it.

Comparing present scenario to tenth century crusade is as absurd as suggesting Iraq war was for WMD`s.

well done, keep it up!

Gee, macgupta ... what the hell does Apple Macintosh got to do with waiting for a Sallaudin??!! Life`s not ALL cyber, y`know.

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Chowk Editors!

Bravo! Simply loved the new style and the upgrade! Chowk has finally discovered the secret and that is, beauty lies in simplicity and simplicity is the hallmark of elegance!

Re: Tipu

What are you talking about? LOL

Ciao

[An Islamic Scholar, Allama Javid Ghamidi from Pakistan pointed out that today’s Muslim must be as a hummingbird, sucking the nectar out of the flower of the West, while ignoring that which it considers poisons, to take back to its nest. ]

The hummingbird-flower analogy like crusade-current is also overly simplisitic because flowr in this case is not a static receptor. Hummingbirds are allowed to suck the nectar because it benefits flowers too. Muslim hummingbirds on the other hand hate the flowers, some like cursing as Zeba Khan in another article and some like crushing it. In this case, flower controls its destiny much more efficiently and would not like its nectar to be sucked by haters. Muslims stand no chance of learning while hating and taking it back to the nest. It is likely to produce two extremes, those who learn nothing while hating and those whose loyalties will be with the flower and nectar. The said scholar in the quote himself sucked the nectar from Pakistani flowers as Hamidi and changed to Ghamidi. Shame on him for even telling anything to Pakistanis. The suckers who even did not like khuda hafiz, azaan and wuzu should go suck the nectar of the sand and camels.

very good and thought provoking.i always wonder how and why muslims lost grip over knowledge.some days back while studying world history(s.s frey)i was almost taken to tears
when.i


read the chapter``rise of islam``the author praised muslim conquerers not only for their rapid expanisionism but also for their keen interest in knowledge .he aruged no other force ever before influence the world of literature,art and experimental sciences like that of muslim.he also agreed that many of the greats treaties of the ancient world of GRECE,pERSIA,INDIA,ROME AND ELSE WHERE CAME to them by muslim scholars and scribs.the great monuments and architecture structure of the iislamic world are familiar to many.thedome of the ROCKin jerusalam,the first and one of the most unique of islamic monument:Taj mahal inAGRA,the great mosque of Isfahan,with its majistic ayvans and soaring minarets.these construction and infinite number of others exemplify the magificence and artistry of islamic civilization and culture. they are instantlly recognizable the world over,wether as monuments to a glorious past,objects of beauty and curiosty or achitectural and structureal wonder.
i simply fail to understand that why muslim then lost all interest in science,culture and literature etc.this enigmatic tragedy has always baffled me and to my mind.there is no answer except that the fall in science was a natural follow up of o their failure in politics.thence i assume as conclusion that with the cpllapse of their political system,and state institution scientific course automatically suffered a set back,in others words a sound political system is thus necessary for the progress of other institution.
i pray to allah to give strength,courge,wisdom and leaders to pull them out of this dark tunnel.every one sholuld keep the world history in on``s home library and make sure every child read it.

#32 by macgupta on June 11, 2003 6:02pm PT

you will be be refered to the other more....

...putrid burgers.


:))

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Macgupta #32

Your may be aware of it, but origin of the word mac is from scotland and means son of. There fore the original Macdonald must have been son of donald. Usually the legitimate sons carried the fathers` name and the byeblows carried the mac.

Off-topic, but macgupta is Mac as in ``Apple Macintosh``. Nothing to do with putrid burgers.

Dear Chowk Staff

I looooooooooved the new look.

hamidm

I think you should change the company you keep. If you keep on hanging out with the people who pee in the streets you wont be able to see the humingbirds.

HUMMING BIRDS AND VULTURES

``What image billboard defacing and other such acts of coercion and vandalism are creating for Pakistan is evident from a Faisalabad report which says that a Dutch firm has decided to wind up business here and leave.

The firm said it had found conditions in Pakistan unbearable. ``

aBOVE IS FROM DAWN OF TODAY, the response to the sharia law introduction in a province of pakistan.
``Now is the time that Muslims must become that hummingbird. Muslims must look into the methods that Europe employed in combating fanaticism, while making sure that it is staying true to its own Islamic roots. It is, indeed, quite a challenge. The burden of persuasion is on them. ``

Above is the hope iof the author. Ameer, I am Afriad to say that the muslims of pakistan are no humming birds, they are the vultures, picking the bones of dead taliban, trying to revitalise it. Pakistan is a country created for islam, and it has to be the purest form, right from the book, a recreation of arabia of 7 th centuray, complete with the desert vultures. In the deserta of arabia, there were no humming birds, they belong to the tropical regions.

urstruly,

you say, ``The humingbird analogy is correct and this phenomenon is happening since the mid 70s when the educated Muslim class started migrating to West. ``

......... where? when? and how?............. the so called muslim educated class that is migrating to the west is not doing anything extraordinary except holding down humdrum jobs as engineers designing mounting brackets for starter motors in detroit ....... either that, or they are collecting unemployment, ssi, welfare, food stamps and generally taking advantage of everything the infidels have to offer even as they curse them and make a fool out of themselves by lining up for prayers in public parks, community centers, airports and office buildings ............. they exist on the fringe of society, taking advantage of everything it has to offer and giving back little in return ..........they bring all their bad habits from ``back home`` without picking up any good ones from their hosts .......... they park in fire lanes and given the chance would pee in the street ............ so what is it that they are learning in the west? .......... and even if they are learning something, i don`t think they are taking it back with them.......... burning bill boards and beating unveiled women is not something they learned during devil`s night in detroit ............maybe it is .............

Why doesn`t the author interact? It is terrible to see such great articles getting hijacked by imbiciles and hindus.

I do not agree with Ken Ringles` thesis and his comparisons are sophomoric but there is no argument that the two civilizations are in collision course. The humingbird analogy is correct and this phenomenon is happening since the mid 70s when the educated Muslim class started migrating to West. The 9/11 has only provided the necessary catalyst to accelerate the process. Now the world has changed considerably from the middle-ages. So the tactics of middle-ages have lost their efficacy as well. That is the reason the recent middle-ages style invasion of Muslim lands by United States and West is being frowned upon by rest of the civilized world.

I agree with Ameer`s alternatives. I think these alternatives will finally prevail. The integrated economic forces that unite the world today will force the extremists on both side to re-asses their respective positions sooner than. Since United States and West are the stronger party its better for them to revert to the fold of civilazation first to preserve their credibility.

Tipu: Allcomments.

Is there any logic in them?

#21 by Tipu on June 11, 2003 9:45am PT

.. what bought that on!!???

#22 by sadna on June 11, 2003 9:55am PT

..Islam is THE perfect religion, Muslims are THE perfect people.

a number of muslims on this board have pointed out many shortcomings of muslims.

..for sectarian differences, misreading of scriptures is responsible.

YOu mean to say that people are saying reading (or misreading in this case)is done by others ie not muslim people?

... If raped women are sent to jail for adultery, no need to change the law or introduce safeguards, because lack of ideal Islamic society is responsible

.. a number of muslims on this board have talked about the need to indroudce safegaurds.

You have an amazing talent to contradict yourself in one single post.

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sameer #11
``Muslims need to defeat the enemy within ``

Which enemy? Islam is THE perfect religion, Muslims are THE perfect people.

For what Muslims do(including killing others) - someone else is responsible. For Talibanic barbarity, the US is responsible, for sectarian differences, misreading of scriptures is responsible, if women are not allowed to vote or work, tribal culture is responsible. If raped women are sent to jail for adultery, no need to change the law or introduce safeguards, because lack of ideal Islamic society is responsible - for this lack of mandatory daily prayers and full Sharia is responsible - for that US-stooges are responsible. For poor economy - the US is responsible, the prevalence of interest is responsible.

For what Muslims think, someone else is responsible. If a Muslim hates America - the US is responsible, if one Muslim thinks the other Muslim is not equal to him, Hindus are responsible, if Muslims look down on nonMuslims, nonMuslims `s very existence or their religions are responsible. Kumbh Mela is a mass sexual orgy and goddesses are naked - and 72 houris are not accepted by Hindus in lieu of the goddesses- that the root cause of Muslim problems on the subcontinent.

EVEN for what a Muslim says(or posts on chowk), someone else is responsible. Muslims themselves are NEVER responsible - there is no enemy within its all enemies outside.

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#15 by Inquirer on June 11, 2003 7:56am PT

I do have hope for both.

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The religion has to be kept as a personal fuzzy guide to meet our spirtual needs.

Any religion that attempts to implement its original scripture word by word will immediately fall into a dark age. And its people will be engulfed in a total chaos and confusion.

Faith is blind without any logic. God, Allah, Bhagwan, Power are the different names of the same unknown.

#11 by sameerJB on June 10, 2003 10:33pm PT

sorry to disappoint you sadnas range of deities are quite extensive. She is not of the same mould as you.

I know the americans are working very hard. partying hard, watching hours of productive television very hard. golfing very hard and compared to that the farmer in both sides of the punjab is sipping lassi while frolicing with the madiens.

The crusades had nothing to do with religion. The crusades were intended to end the muslim monopoly on the spice trade. It was the same basic desire that would make Columbus sail westwards to find a route to the Indies, which would allow the Europeans to by-pass the muslim lands and avoid paying taxes to them, they transported their spices across the muslim land.

Religion was merely used to sanction an armed aggression and to reconcile the notions of greed and murder, with the prohibitions of the commandments, the notion of ``jus bellum`` - a just war was created by Pope Urban II. In a speech to the Christians at Clermont, France, in 1096 AD, Urban II urged to free Jerusalem not to liberate it from the non-Christian yoke, but to increase the power and influence of the Catholic Church. The doctrinal divide in the christian church had already occured with the christian church breaking into two groups: the church in the west came to be known as the Catholic Church. The word ``catholic`` comes from the Latin and means universial. Like wise, the church in the east came to be known as the Eastern Orthodox Church - in Greek, the word orthodox means ``true believer``.

The original appeal for the crusades was made by Pope Urban II on the petition of the Byzantine Empire, which was being threatened by the Seljuk Turks. The Seljuks had conquered Palestine and from there, were making inroads into the the territory of the Byzantine empire. Urban II hoped that by helping the Byzatine defeat the Turks, he could reinstate the influence of the western church over the entire christiandom.

Two points need to made here, for reasons of historic clarifications. The word ``crusader`` comes from the Latin word, ``cruciata`` - the cross. The people who joined the First Crusade wore a fabric with a cross on their armor and hence, came to be known as the crusaders. Secondly, the area/land of Palestine was named such by the Romans, when they expelled the Jews from Judaea and destroyed the Temple of Soloman around 78 AD creating the Jewish disapora.

The Massacre of Jerusalem in the First Crusade was not limited to Muslims, but Jews and Christians were also killed by the Crusaders and the most tangible outcome of that crusade was the establishment of the trade routes between the Middle East and the Italian city-states of Naples, Venice and Florence. It would be these trade links that would usher in the economic prosperity of the Italian city-state of the pre-Renaissance period. Again, the crusades were more political then they were religious and their politics stemmed from the attempt by the Catholic Church to limit the feudal wars of Europe, by identifying the crusades with the ``Peace of God``.

The crusades were about cementing the role of the Catholic church over the power structure of feudal Europe and it is not a coincidence that the last crusade was fought in 1295 AD and with the end of the crusades, the decline in church power was commeasurate with the rise of the nation states in Europe in the fourteen century.

People, it is never about religion! Religion is the opium of the masses, because once drugged to its halucinations, people stop thinking and stop asking questions, making it easy for those in power to remain in power!

Ciao

SameerJB: You are right. The biggest threat faced by Muslims is from Islam itself. They should liberate themselves from the cult-like dogmas propagated in 7th century tribal Arabia. Reform or perish.

Ameer Afraid: Your analogy of the current terrorism with the Crusades is nothing but an attempt to justify Islamic violence against the West. Humanity is supposed to have progressed much more since the Crusades.

I do not agree that the current Muslims terrorism is a protracted battle against the West. The terrorists and supporters are already on the run. The US-led West is disproportionately strong militarily and has a strong politically will to crush terrorism.

#, 12 macgupta:

I am an immigrant to US, but I totally agree that the first generation Indians and Pakistanis have to die out before common appreciation, understanding, and accomodation would arise among the descendants of Indian Subcontinents. I am willing to bet you are a young Hindu who was born/grew up in US/Canada. This is already showing up in interreligious marriages. I am encouraged by your last name and happy that you are a Hindu. Remember, you donot have to follow any religious leader to be a Hindu.

As for India and Pakistan, your statement stands: ``The dark ages will be permanent.``

The dark ages will be permanent. unless you guys learn to approach others in the spirit of ecumenism and tolerance.

sadna: Totally agree with your reply, particularly the opening statement, ``the stated aims of evangelist Christians and Islamists are identical - political and religious overlordship over the whole of humanity in service of a deity who is purportedly vindictive towards `nonbelievers```.

Not only for the sake of a diety, but a diety who was a big failure despite all eggorts for almost 1500 years until Roman emperor Comstantine converted and then Muslims helped the cause of diety until Spanish took over and helped the diety cause in Americas in rutterly uthless manner. Catholic Christinaity also played significant role in Veitnam against the vietnamese people.

Inquirer:
The Eveangelic Christians deeply infiltrated the democracy movement in China all the way to leadership position with Evangelical handlers sitting in Hong Kong manipulating the whole movement until it was crushed by chinese leadership. Had it succeeded, the door to salvation of chinese souls would have been wide open with red carpet treatment.

According to most historians, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called western religions whereas Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confusanism and Shinto are called eastern religions. Just like Muslims, Christians are also found deep in the easy all the way to Philippines.

Tha analogy with crusades does not hold because Muslims are damn weak with total GDP less than France, besides other players are also interested in playing the game on world stage besides Muslims and the west. Muslims need to defeat the enemy within before taking on the enemies outside. The enemy inside is Islam as it is playing out at individual and collective levels.

You can not compete in this world with fart breakng ablutions and roughly 2-3 hours per day spending on non-productive religious practices while rest of the world is extending their productive hours to almost 24 hours a day. Muslims could only be competitive, if all the functions of individual and collective lives are taken over by robots and people have plenty of time for ablution, adhan, praying, fasting, zikr, chilla, maarfat, tilawat, hajj, shariat, tareeqat, fiqah and what not.

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I agree with Maharana #6- the stated aims of evangelist Christians and Islamists are identical - political and religious overlordship over the whole of humanity in service of a deity who is purportedly vindictive towards `nonbelievers`.

Add to this the relevance of Jews in both mythologies and in the conditions for the second coming in both faiths.

Thus unless evangelist Christians and Islamists are hypocrites and donot believe their own mythologies(in which case the sooner this blasphemy is exposed to the world the better), there can be no compromise between them- only temporary territorial adjustments marking time in a continuous war till Armageddon.

By the rest of the world which will be watching from the sidelines, the price to be paid for this conflict will be less, the sooner these two groups finish off each other - perhaps the sooner they hasten their resp. Armageddons/Qiyamats through mutual nuking.

7 by Inquirer on June 10, 2003 2:27pm PT

welcome back

#4, sameerJB: I agree that a certain cooperarng spirit is required to accept the analogy. You did not have to bicker about the Eastern and non-Eastern though. Your point about Deng Xiao Peng etc. is not clear to me but I agree that the Muslims have to overcome their masjids and their profiteers - monetary or otherwise.

#6, Maharana: Did you have to adopt this cantankerous approach? In order to preclude the discussions from deteriorating to low levels we not only have maintain the decorum but also emphasize understanding rather than cheap excitement of mutual recriminations.

Wow!!! That was an amazing example of piercing intellectual display.

Wonder when the three sons of Abraham will stop the ranting of ``I alone .....``. Perhaps after complete mutual destruction. Hopefully then mankind will not take the same path again. Till then lets atleast enjoy this sport of bloodbath while calling ourselves more civilized than our opponent. I guess our minds are so seized by this culture, that a recourse to seeking happiness ( a common human denominator I suppose) has long been buried under the jealous monotheism of abraham.
Adios

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Fnatabolous!

Clean bowled!!!!

Crusades
Christianity was leading
christians were on the bandwagon to their demise
Islam was leading
Muslims were on the bandwagon to their demise

Now
west is leading
christianity is on the bandwagon for a free ride
Islam is leading
Muslims are on the bandwagon to their demise

Islam is not eastern religion and Muslims are not easterners.

This article makes sense if the assumed parameters are accepted without questioning, like Muslims as one homogeneous group due to civilization and west also one christian group.

Muslims are in no position to spoil the party of their sister religion, the way Deng Xiaoping and Li Peng spoiled the crusaders celebration of christian millenia in Tian-an Man square while taking free ride on the west`s bandwagon. Had it succeeded, Muslims would be in lot more trouble than now - squeezed from both sides.

Muslims need to defeat Islam the way christians defeated christianity during enlightenment an scientific revolution centuries.

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Ameer Afraid:

You have produced a remarkable analogy!