Bina Shah February 1, 2003
#46 Posted by ferozk on February 5, 2003 9:38:47 pm
Re: Stuka # 44
No, it does not justify the act. I was not seeking a justification of the act, but an examination into what causes it. A more acute question is not whether this is right or wrong, but why does this behavior occurs.
The ``why`` is never answered and that is a problem, because, whether we agree or disagree with the causes, the causes, which led to this behavior have to be understood in order to address this problem. It is very to easy to rationalize an opinion or a answer to this problem, but that not suggest an understanding. Rationalization does not always led to reason and the reasons, in this case, have to be acknowledged and understood, before we can think of solving this phenomena.
Ciao
No, it does not justify the act. I was not seeking a justification of the act, but an examination into what causes it. A more acute question is not whether this is right or wrong, but why does this behavior occurs.
The ``why`` is never answered and that is a problem, because, whether we agree or disagree with the causes, the causes, which led to this behavior have to be understood in order to address this problem. It is very to easy to rationalize an opinion or a answer to this problem, but that not suggest an understanding. Rationalization does not always led to reason and the reasons, in this case, have to be acknowledged and understood, before we can think of solving this phenomena.
Ciao
#45 Posted by dullabhatti on February 5, 2003 8:34:04 pm
==============================
If there is one thing I have seen in life and business on a personal basis, and international politics and conflict on an academic basis, it is:
Every man (or woman) for himself/herself and survival of the fittest. The weak will be conquered, ruled, occupied, killed. And the strong will be able to get away with murder. If you cannot stand up for yourself, if you cannot defend yourself against a hostile takeover in business or a military occupation in politics, if you yourself aren`t strong, then it doesn`t matter how moral your cause is, you will never win.
=======================================
Jathedaar sahib, did not some one say the same thing long time ago? :-)
If there is one thing I have seen in life and business on a personal basis, and international politics and conflict on an academic basis, it is:
Every man (or woman) for himself/herself and survival of the fittest. The weak will be conquered, ruled, occupied, killed. And the strong will be able to get away with murder. If you cannot stand up for yourself, if you cannot defend yourself against a hostile takeover in business or a military occupation in politics, if you yourself aren`t strong, then it doesn`t matter how moral your cause is, you will never win.
=======================================
Jathedaar sahib, did not some one say the same thing long time ago? :-)
#44 Posted by stuka on February 5, 2003 7:47:21 am
FerozeK:
I was being sarcastic. I do not think Pakistan has oppressed its citizens to the extent that they need to blow themselves up. I do believe that if the culture of death becomes glamorous, emotional people will blow themselves up.
Do I think Israel ahs a lot to answer for? Yes. Do I think it justifies blowing up innocent citizens sitting in a cafe reading a paper? No.
I was being sarcastic. I do not think Pakistan has oppressed its citizens to the extent that they need to blow themselves up. I do believe that if the culture of death becomes glamorous, emotional people will blow themselves up.
Do I think Israel ahs a lot to answer for? Yes. Do I think it justifies blowing up innocent citizens sitting in a cafe reading a paper? No.
#43 Posted by ferozk on February 4, 2003 9:01:47 pm
Re: Stuka # 36
To quote you...
``After all, the Pakistani government must have done something truly horrible to these people to make them lose all sense of hope.``
Yes, and the same applies to the Palestinians. It is called a lack of political representation, lack of economic empowerment, lack of justice, lack of basic rights - life, liberity and security from harm. The government of Israel has a lot to answer for its policies. Suicide bombings are a recent phenomena. Israel was created in 1948. Israel and its Arab neighbors fought three wars; 1956, 1967 and 1973. Why was there no suicide bombings in the past, why now? If it was a religious obligation as claimed by some, then why it did become a common occurance only in the last decade? Where did the idea of jihad come from; where was it resurrected? Was it religious or politically motivated?
Stuka, you also said in the context of Pakistan, ``It is easy to condemn such terrorism but law enforcement is not enough; the demands of these suicide bombaers should be met to prevent terrorism in the future.``
Does this not apply to the Israel government also?
Yes, Stuka, you are right, when you suggest that it is easy to condemn terrorism. That is the problem. We condemn terrorism, but we do not seek or are not interested in finding what makes these people blow themselves up.
Why?
It is time the world moves beyond the rhetoric of its hypocricy!
Ciao
To quote you...
``After all, the Pakistani government must have done something truly horrible to these people to make them lose all sense of hope.``
Yes, and the same applies to the Palestinians. It is called a lack of political representation, lack of economic empowerment, lack of justice, lack of basic rights - life, liberity and security from harm. The government of Israel has a lot to answer for its policies. Suicide bombings are a recent phenomena. Israel was created in 1948. Israel and its Arab neighbors fought three wars; 1956, 1967 and 1973. Why was there no suicide bombings in the past, why now? If it was a religious obligation as claimed by some, then why it did become a common occurance only in the last decade? Where did the idea of jihad come from; where was it resurrected? Was it religious or politically motivated?
Stuka, you also said in the context of Pakistan, ``It is easy to condemn such terrorism but law enforcement is not enough; the demands of these suicide bombaers should be met to prevent terrorism in the future.``
Does this not apply to the Israel government also?
Yes, Stuka, you are right, when you suggest that it is easy to condemn terrorism. That is the problem. We condemn terrorism, but we do not seek or are not interested in finding what makes these people blow themselves up.
Why?
It is time the world moves beyond the rhetoric of its hypocricy!
Ciao
#42 Posted by AAmir on February 4, 2003 3:39:07 pm
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#41 Posted by stuka on February 4, 2003 11:14:18 am
Aamir: I was referring specifically to suicide bombings. Usual lawlessness does not warrant the same amount of sympathy, yet suicide bombing is held up as something really special. There have been suicide bombings in Karachi in the last 6 months. Why are they not looked upon with the same amount of sympathy and understanding that is extended to similar bombings in Israel or India?
#40 Posted by stuka on February 4, 2003 11:14:18 am
Aamir: I was referring specifically to suicide bombings. Usual lawlessness does not warrant the same amount of sympathy, yet suicide bombing is held up as something really special. There have been suicide bombings in Karachi in the last 6 months. Why are they not looked upon with the same amount of sympathy and understanding that is extended to similar bombings in Israel or India?
#39 Posted by stuka on February 4, 2003 11:14:18 am
Nasah: The reverse could also be true then. Maybe Sharon is the fifth columnist planted by Hamas and Islamic Jihad to prevent secularization of the Palestenian people.
#37 Posted by AAmir on February 4, 2003 10:37:51 am
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#36 Posted by stuka on February 4, 2003 9:36:03 am
I believe that there have also been some suicide bombings in Karachi. Instead of calling it terrorism, why is the Pakistani government not doing more to find out what motivates such people? After all, the Pakistani government must have done something truly horrible to these people to make them lose all sense of hope.
The Pakistani establishment must do some introspection to understand the root causes of such suicide bombings and give a reason to hope and live for the future to the would be terrorists. It is easy to condemn such terrorism but law enforcement is not enough; the demands of these suicide bombaers should be met to prevent terrorism in the future.
The Pakistani establishment must do some introspection to understand the root causes of such suicide bombings and give a reason to hope and live for the future to the would be terrorists. It is easy to condemn such terrorism but law enforcement is not enough; the demands of these suicide bombaers should be met to prevent terrorism in the future.
#35 Posted by nasah on February 3, 2003 10:08:01 pm
Hamas is a FIFTH COLUMN planted by the likudi Israelis among the moderate secular Palestinians –
Sharon goals and Hamas goal are ONE and the SAME -- no statehood for Palestinians
Is Sharon afraid of Yasin – absolutely not -- Yasin is his friend -- Sharon`s sworn enemy is Yasser Arafat a secularist moderate -- not Yasin the Islamist extremist.
have you ever heard Sharon`s diatribe -- against Hamas or Yasin -- because he knows Hamas guarantee that Sharons `Judea an Smaria` will never become -- a free Palestinian state -- an Independent Palestine --
Sharon is hell bent on destroying the Palestinian Authority -- because it is that institution and its head -- that he despises the most -- because he is scared stiff of both.
On the Palestinian side – in creating a total chaos and lawlessness -- Sharon`s ally Yasin -- is also hell bent on destroying Palestinian Authority -- he has turned the territory into a totally unaccountable, ungovernable piece of sh#t –
And Yasin is doing it -- through his pathetic, self-destructive, immoral, irreligious, unislamic, totally Satanic concept of -- “martyrdom operations”.
If there are TWO absolutely immovable, irrefutable TRUTHS -- about Israeli-Palestinian conflict resolution – they are as follows:
There is no POWER on earth or in heaven that will ever succeed in providing the Palestinian people with an Independent Palestine -- in the West Bank and Gaza – as long as that crummy concept of “Suicide Bombing” continues.
There is no POWER on earth or in heaven that will ever succeed in --denying -- the Palestinian people an Independent Palestine -- in the West Bank and Gaza – as long as their fight is political -- directed against the the evil occupation – not against the innocent common people.
The Palestinian State is as inevitable as -- the day after the night -- it has TO BE -- if not today -- TOMORROW -- it WILL BE --
despite the TWO MONSTROCITES doing their best to prevent it –
the one from the Israeli side -- Sharon -- and the other -- from the Palestinian side -- Yasin.
hasan
Sharon goals and Hamas goal are ONE and the SAME -- no statehood for Palestinians
Is Sharon afraid of Yasin – absolutely not -- Yasin is his friend -- Sharon`s sworn enemy is Yasser Arafat a secularist moderate -- not Yasin the Islamist extremist.
have you ever heard Sharon`s diatribe -- against Hamas or Yasin -- because he knows Hamas guarantee that Sharons `Judea an Smaria` will never become -- a free Palestinian state -- an Independent Palestine --
Sharon is hell bent on destroying the Palestinian Authority -- because it is that institution and its head -- that he despises the most -- because he is scared stiff of both.
On the Palestinian side – in creating a total chaos and lawlessness -- Sharon`s ally Yasin -- is also hell bent on destroying Palestinian Authority -- he has turned the territory into a totally unaccountable, ungovernable piece of sh#t –
And Yasin is doing it -- through his pathetic, self-destructive, immoral, irreligious, unislamic, totally Satanic concept of -- “martyrdom operations”.
If there are TWO absolutely immovable, irrefutable TRUTHS -- about Israeli-Palestinian conflict resolution – they are as follows:
There is no POWER on earth or in heaven that will ever succeed in providing the Palestinian people with an Independent Palestine -- in the West Bank and Gaza – as long as that crummy concept of “Suicide Bombing” continues.
There is no POWER on earth or in heaven that will ever succeed in --denying -- the Palestinian people an Independent Palestine -- in the West Bank and Gaza – as long as their fight is political -- directed against the the evil occupation – not against the innocent common people.
The Palestinian State is as inevitable as -- the day after the night -- it has TO BE -- if not today -- TOMORROW -- it WILL BE --
despite the TWO MONSTROCITES doing their best to prevent it –
the one from the Israeli side -- Sharon -- and the other -- from the Palestinian side -- Yasin.
hasan
#33 Posted by Romair on February 3, 2003 8:31:34 pm
If there is one thing I have seen in life and business on a personal basis, and international politics and conflict on an academic basis, it is:
Every man (or woman) for himself/herself and survival of the fittest. The weak will be conquered, ruled, occupied, killed. And the strong will be able to get away with murder. If you cannot stand up for yourself, if you cannot defend yourself against a hostile takeover in business or a military occupation in politics, if you yourself aren`t strong, then it doesn`t matter how moral your cause is, you will never win.
So step one in any struggle is to make yourself strong. There is no point in fighting someone, if you cannot win - regardless of how much you have been wronged.
It doesn`t take a genuis to see that the Palestine cause is correct and moral. Someone came and took their land. Plain and simple. Doesn`t matter how the Israelis did it, doesn`t matter if they think God gave it to them, it is wrong. But yelling, screaming and telling this to the whole world is not going to solve the problem for the Palestinians.
Israel is far far stronger than people realize. It hasn`t even unleashed a fraction of its firepower at the Arabs. People tend to state that Israel, Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons. That is like saying Shoaib Akhtar, and two school kids who play cricket are fast bowlers.
If one studies Israel`s arsenal of missiles and nuclear weaponry, they will realize that it is second only to the USA and USSR. It is decades ahead of Pakistan and India. They can target the capitals of every Muslim country in the world, other than perhaps Indonesia (and that is a big perhaps). Israel`s Air Force is larger than Pakistan`s and carries more firepower than India`s. Israel has a multi-billion dollar hi-tech armament exporting industry.
No doubt terrorism is from both sides. It is always more from the occupying army than from the occupied civilians - due to the larger firepower of the occupiers. And there are countries that have won their independence through attacks on civilians of the occupiers - Algeria comes to mind, Bangladesh comes to mind also. Nehru wanted a militant struggle in India, etc.
However, in all those cases, the occupiers were from a distant land. In the Palestinian case, the occupiers live on the same land, and have no where else to go. The occupiers will obviously not give it up, even if they could be forced to do so. They will fight till the death, and will unleash all their nuclear might, before being defeated, i.e. they are in a state of MAD with the whole Arab world.
Palestinians need to get their own act together before they do anything else. Fifty years of fighting has only gotten more land for Israel and not for them. And they need to realize that it is survival of the fittest. In this world, might is still right, and right is still not might (unfortunately). No one has nor will they listen to the moral claims argument, even though it is accurate - least of all Israel and USA.
The PLO needs new leadership. I think they should appoint a Christian as the head of the PLO. Many people don`t realize the fact that the Christian Arabs are on the receiving end of the Jews also, and want an independent Palestine. A Christian leadership of the PLO will put organizations like the Christian Coalition in the USA and the US Christian population in a moral bind. A maulvi getting beat up by a Jewish soldier (which happens), on US television, is one thing. A Christian priest getting beat up by a Jew (which happens also), on US national television, is a completely different can of motzah balls.
The PLO then needs to work out a long-term (planned out over decades) agenda of slowly building up their strength - in Arab countries, in the USA, in Europe etc. They need to slowly start isolating Israel in a planned manner, much like Israel has done to them. They need to stop relying on Muslim countries for support. These countries can barely take care of themselves, and the Palestinian leadership has itself never spoken up much for their causes. Why would they speak up in a practical manner for Palestinian causes. When India parked its army on Pakistan`s borders, not a single Muslim nation made any noise - the Palestinians actually sent a delegation to Vajpayee during those days.
Very few countries have lost a freedom struggle if they have the following four things going for them: 1) They are recognized as the occupied (and hence the moral owner of their land) by the world 2) They have individuals amongst them who are willing to die for there freedom struggle 3) They have a geographically continguous country ready to provide them with full support. 4) They are the overwhelming majority in the land they are a part of. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Algeria, USA, India and Pakistan (had the British not left voluntarily) etc. are good examples. The freedom struggles have taken time, and many precious lives, but eventually the occupier has lost.
Palestinians have the first two in their favor, but they do not have the last two. Hence, their freedom struggle has only resulted in their lands being even more occupied then when they started.
Everyone has to fight their own battles (unfortunately). And one the greatest qualities of a good leader is to know when to strategically withdraw from conflicts, in which he/she is losing, and rebuild. The Palestinians need to carry out a strategic withdrawl from their conflict with Israel.
Every man (or woman) for himself/herself and survival of the fittest. The weak will be conquered, ruled, occupied, killed. And the strong will be able to get away with murder. If you cannot stand up for yourself, if you cannot defend yourself against a hostile takeover in business or a military occupation in politics, if you yourself aren`t strong, then it doesn`t matter how moral your cause is, you will never win.
So step one in any struggle is to make yourself strong. There is no point in fighting someone, if you cannot win - regardless of how much you have been wronged.
It doesn`t take a genuis to see that the Palestine cause is correct and moral. Someone came and took their land. Plain and simple. Doesn`t matter how the Israelis did it, doesn`t matter if they think God gave it to them, it is wrong. But yelling, screaming and telling this to the whole world is not going to solve the problem for the Palestinians.
Israel is far far stronger than people realize. It hasn`t even unleashed a fraction of its firepower at the Arabs. People tend to state that Israel, Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons. That is like saying Shoaib Akhtar, and two school kids who play cricket are fast bowlers.
If one studies Israel`s arsenal of missiles and nuclear weaponry, they will realize that it is second only to the USA and USSR. It is decades ahead of Pakistan and India. They can target the capitals of every Muslim country in the world, other than perhaps Indonesia (and that is a big perhaps). Israel`s Air Force is larger than Pakistan`s and carries more firepower than India`s. Israel has a multi-billion dollar hi-tech armament exporting industry.
No doubt terrorism is from both sides. It is always more from the occupying army than from the occupied civilians - due to the larger firepower of the occupiers. And there are countries that have won their independence through attacks on civilians of the occupiers - Algeria comes to mind, Bangladesh comes to mind also. Nehru wanted a militant struggle in India, etc.
However, in all those cases, the occupiers were from a distant land. In the Palestinian case, the occupiers live on the same land, and have no where else to go. The occupiers will obviously not give it up, even if they could be forced to do so. They will fight till the death, and will unleash all their nuclear might, before being defeated, i.e. they are in a state of MAD with the whole Arab world.
Palestinians need to get their own act together before they do anything else. Fifty years of fighting has only gotten more land for Israel and not for them. And they need to realize that it is survival of the fittest. In this world, might is still right, and right is still not might (unfortunately). No one has nor will they listen to the moral claims argument, even though it is accurate - least of all Israel and USA.
The PLO needs new leadership. I think they should appoint a Christian as the head of the PLO. Many people don`t realize the fact that the Christian Arabs are on the receiving end of the Jews also, and want an independent Palestine. A Christian leadership of the PLO will put organizations like the Christian Coalition in the USA and the US Christian population in a moral bind. A maulvi getting beat up by a Jewish soldier (which happens), on US television, is one thing. A Christian priest getting beat up by a Jew (which happens also), on US national television, is a completely different can of motzah balls.
The PLO then needs to work out a long-term (planned out over decades) agenda of slowly building up their strength - in Arab countries, in the USA, in Europe etc. They need to slowly start isolating Israel in a planned manner, much like Israel has done to them. They need to stop relying on Muslim countries for support. These countries can barely take care of themselves, and the Palestinian leadership has itself never spoken up much for their causes. Why would they speak up in a practical manner for Palestinian causes. When India parked its army on Pakistan`s borders, not a single Muslim nation made any noise - the Palestinians actually sent a delegation to Vajpayee during those days.
Very few countries have lost a freedom struggle if they have the following four things going for them: 1) They are recognized as the occupied (and hence the moral owner of their land) by the world 2) They have individuals amongst them who are willing to die for there freedom struggle 3) They have a geographically continguous country ready to provide them with full support. 4) They are the overwhelming majority in the land they are a part of. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Algeria, USA, India and Pakistan (had the British not left voluntarily) etc. are good examples. The freedom struggles have taken time, and many precious lives, but eventually the occupier has lost.
Palestinians have the first two in their favor, but they do not have the last two. Hence, their freedom struggle has only resulted in their lands being even more occupied then when they started.
Everyone has to fight their own battles (unfortunately). And one the greatest qualities of a good leader is to know when to strategically withdraw from conflicts, in which he/she is losing, and rebuild. The Palestinians need to carry out a strategic withdrawl from their conflict with Israel.
#32 Posted by Romair on February 3, 2003 8:31:34 pm
If the Palestinians are intelligent, they will appoint Hannan Ashrawi as their leader (I am speaking as a distant viewer, not knowing the exact details, and hence not as an expert). She is a Ph.D in English from the University of Virgina (I think). She speaks and argues beautifully well (unlike Arafat, who is a bumbling idiot when it comes to debating). I have seen her hold her own against any pro-Israeli commentator in the USA. She writes well, and her book(s) is a must read. She is a woman. And most of all, she is not a Muslim. That last part will give her the most points in the USA.
I have seen so many young Palestinian-Americans, in their twenties and thirties, debate their cause so eloquently on TV, but I have yet to see any official leaders of Palestine say something without putting his foot in his mouth (except Ashrawi, who makes up for all of them).
I had co-written an abstract for a book my friend is writing. And in that book, the leader of the Palestinian struggle is actually a Christian female Palestinian.
I have seen so many young Palestinian-Americans, in their twenties and thirties, debate their cause so eloquently on TV, but I have yet to see any official leaders of Palestine say something without putting his foot in his mouth (except Ashrawi, who makes up for all of them).
I had co-written an abstract for a book my friend is writing. And in that book, the leader of the Palestinian struggle is actually a Christian female Palestinian.
#31 Posted by hawkeye on February 3, 2003 8:31:34 pm
There is no excuse for suicide bombings. It gives a putrid name to the word freedom struggle. Anyone who gives justification for it , I think needs to have his/her family, friend blown to simtherines to realize what crap they are talking about. pakistan was born not through suicide bombings but through a struggle ont he highest political level.
The Palestians and Arabs need to to learn to be civil, and as for us emotionally labile pakis, islam is not synonomous with arab and neither are they our brothers.....I can assure you no arab thinks a pakistani to be his brethern.
So here is how it is.....we support injustice everywhere, wheather it be the holocoust or todays Palestine, we do not need to however charge ourselves up to the point of selfdestruction. We have too many of our problems, the one we thankfully dont have is that of not being free. So lets make use of this, and not stand aroudn and wait for the rest of the muslim world to help join hands and move ahead together....total crap...islam has been defaced beyond recogniton by us muslim brethern ..... god have mercy on our ignorant souls......damn u man how can anyone out up a rationale for suicide bombing!!
The Palestians and Arabs need to to learn to be civil, and as for us emotionally labile pakis, islam is not synonomous with arab and neither are they our brothers.....I can assure you no arab thinks a pakistani to be his brethern.
So here is how it is.....we support injustice everywhere, wheather it be the holocoust or todays Palestine, we do not need to however charge ourselves up to the point of selfdestruction. We have too many of our problems, the one we thankfully dont have is that of not being free. So lets make use of this, and not stand aroudn and wait for the rest of the muslim world to help join hands and move ahead together....total crap...islam has been defaced beyond recogniton by us muslim brethern ..... god have mercy on our ignorant souls......damn u man how can anyone out up a rationale for suicide bombing!!
#30 Posted by Studebaker on February 3, 2003 5:48:13 pm
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#29 Posted by Asaleh1 on February 3, 2003 12:04:34 pm
Its interesting to see how the Israeli have rationalized their response to Suicide bombers that they get people to remove their clothes before they can pass the checkpoint.
And the Americans have taken a lesson from the byegone Germans and the Russians by imposing the fingerprinting routine for visitors from overseas.
And the Americans have taken a lesson from the byegone Germans and the Russians by imposing the fingerprinting routine for visitors from overseas.
#28 Posted by pmishra2 on February 3, 2003 9:39:03 am
amit #19
I am glad you note the pragmatic offer by Barak which was refused by Arafat. But that will not be mentioned in the article. Notice instead the ludicrous insistence that suicide attacks are the norm for frustrated people (NOT !). There is no attempt to understand the monumental lunacy of Arafats refusal or how that ultimately led to Sharon being considered a ``moderate`` by israelis.
Why? Because the palestinian case has been transformed into a really noble thing. A jihad against the infidel !! Much more exciting and worthwhile ! Blowing up civilians is OK too according to these ``thinkers``. After all, a just cause....
Therefore, practical reality has nothing to do with it anymore. As long as the Saudis are willing to pay for martyrs and not for setting up IITs in palestine (ok, PITs) , there will be more and more. Instead of territorial compromise we have a clash of civilizations.
Eerily reminiscent of our own Indo-Pak Kashmir story isn`t it? A small indian minority group wants more autonomy and flexibility. But why deal with it like that? Murder and violence is much more exciting in the pursuit of some unrealistic dream of teaching the kafirs a lession....
I am glad you note the pragmatic offer by Barak which was refused by Arafat. But that will not be mentioned in the article. Notice instead the ludicrous insistence that suicide attacks are the norm for frustrated people (NOT !). There is no attempt to understand the monumental lunacy of Arafats refusal or how that ultimately led to Sharon being considered a ``moderate`` by israelis.
Why? Because the palestinian case has been transformed into a really noble thing. A jihad against the infidel !! Much more exciting and worthwhile ! Blowing up civilians is OK too according to these ``thinkers``. After all, a just cause....
Therefore, practical reality has nothing to do with it anymore. As long as the Saudis are willing to pay for martyrs and not for setting up IITs in palestine (ok, PITs) , there will be more and more. Instead of territorial compromise we have a clash of civilizations.
Eerily reminiscent of our own Indo-Pak Kashmir story isn`t it? A small indian minority group wants more autonomy and flexibility. But why deal with it like that? Murder and violence is much more exciting in the pursuit of some unrealistic dream of teaching the kafirs a lession....
#27 Posted by rozaiba on February 3, 2003 7:51:14 am
americanexpress #14:
struggles are also fought in the propoganda arena. expecially now, suicide bombers create little sympathy in places that matter. due to the opposing side`s mastering of propoganda, such brutality justifies harsher brutality.
strategy i suppose should take into account present day realities- and they are that sharon doubled his popularity in last week`s elections. i`m no political strategist, but in the absence of any chivalrous stance being taken by the arab brothers after seeing their palestinean brothers get killed, one can be forgiven to conclude that these suicide bombing tactics are all wrong. who do they appeal to? sure you and i can say `oh, they`re brave men and women`. what does that achieve? but i don`t even sympathise anymore because i find such appeals superficial to take up.
are you and i willing to join them in their voilent struggle? or are you and i just clapping as because suicide bombers provide good entertainment for us? on the other hand, wouldn`t we more likely join them if they persisited with such non violent means such as sit ins, and marches and civil-disobedience tactics around the world? that would appeal to me. it would appeal to hundreds of times as many people.
struggles are also fought in the propoganda arena. expecially now, suicide bombers create little sympathy in places that matter. due to the opposing side`s mastering of propoganda, such brutality justifies harsher brutality.
strategy i suppose should take into account present day realities- and they are that sharon doubled his popularity in last week`s elections. i`m no political strategist, but in the absence of any chivalrous stance being taken by the arab brothers after seeing their palestinean brothers get killed, one can be forgiven to conclude that these suicide bombing tactics are all wrong. who do they appeal to? sure you and i can say `oh, they`re brave men and women`. what does that achieve? but i don`t even sympathise anymore because i find such appeals superficial to take up.
are you and i willing to join them in their voilent struggle? or are you and i just clapping as because suicide bombers provide good entertainment for us? on the other hand, wouldn`t we more likely join them if they persisited with such non violent means such as sit ins, and marches and civil-disobedience tactics around the world? that would appeal to me. it would appeal to hundreds of times as many people.
#26 Posted by ferozk on February 3, 2003 6:43:42 am
Re: Amit # 19 & tahmed32 # 17
I agree with both of you and the points, which you have made.
My only worry is that this sensible solution, as suggested by both of you, will not work till the Israelis are also made to realize their policies are proportionally increasing the spirial of violence. Pressurizing the Palestinians to agree to stop the levels of violence, without asking Israel to do the same, will only led to a Palestinian appeasement of the Israeli policies. The Palestinians cannot be reasonably asked to stop the violence if Israel is allowed to commit violence at will. Israel also has to be asked to stop using violence as a means to settle a political problem. In both cases, for the Palestinians and the Israelis, the ends do not justify the means!
This is where the perceptional inequities of the crisis becomes a stumbling block to an effective solution. It is this lack of an even handed approach to the problem, which breeds anger, resentment, and frustration all echoing the calls for revenge. This in turn creates an instinctive dislike for Pax Americana and in return, the American failure to understand the basic causes of this crisis and its consequences, prompts it to punish the world for its own ignorance! On the other hand, any criticism of the Israeli policy is seen in the colors of anti-Semitism by the Jewish state and as Amit suggested cogently, world`s guilt assoicated with the Holocaust is used to deflect any criticism of Israel. Pity!
Ciao
I agree with both of you and the points, which you have made.
My only worry is that this sensible solution, as suggested by both of you, will not work till the Israelis are also made to realize their policies are proportionally increasing the spirial of violence. Pressurizing the Palestinians to agree to stop the levels of violence, without asking Israel to do the same, will only led to a Palestinian appeasement of the Israeli policies. The Palestinians cannot be reasonably asked to stop the violence if Israel is allowed to commit violence at will. Israel also has to be asked to stop using violence as a means to settle a political problem. In both cases, for the Palestinians and the Israelis, the ends do not justify the means!
This is where the perceptional inequities of the crisis becomes a stumbling block to an effective solution. It is this lack of an even handed approach to the problem, which breeds anger, resentment, and frustration all echoing the calls for revenge. This in turn creates an instinctive dislike for Pax Americana and in return, the American failure to understand the basic causes of this crisis and its consequences, prompts it to punish the world for its own ignorance! On the other hand, any criticism of the Israeli policy is seen in the colors of anti-Semitism by the Jewish state and as Amit suggested cogently, world`s guilt assoicated with the Holocaust is used to deflect any criticism of Israel. Pity!
Ciao
#25 Posted by jay on February 3, 2003 6:43:41 am
FBI in Pakistan
A news item in your daily (Jan 24) says the FBI is now going to keep track of three million Pakistanis. Doesn`t this also mean that the FBI`s departure from Pakistan will be delayed by half a century or even by a longer period?
The question is: to whom amongst us is such an exercise and FBI`s long-term presence acceptable?
Z. A. Kazmi
Karachi
///the above is from dawn of today. I am happy to know that at least FBI believes in my assertion, the output from the 200,000 madrassa are the key factor, irrespective of whether they have received arms training or not. It is that urge to become a shaheed is the key factor, once being primed with this world view, it just a matter of time. 3 million jihadists, well one has to think of economics of sending them to heaven.
A news item in your daily (Jan 24) says the FBI is now going to keep track of three million Pakistanis. Doesn`t this also mean that the FBI`s departure from Pakistan will be delayed by half a century or even by a longer period?
The question is: to whom amongst us is such an exercise and FBI`s long-term presence acceptable?
Z. A. Kazmi
Karachi
///the above is from dawn of today. I am happy to know that at least FBI believes in my assertion, the output from the 200,000 madrassa are the key factor, irrespective of whether they have received arms training or not. It is that urge to become a shaheed is the key factor, once being primed with this world view, it just a matter of time. 3 million jihadists, well one has to think of economics of sending them to heaven.
#24 Posted by jay on February 3, 2003 6:43:41 am
HOPE OF PAKISTAN,
Today there is an explosion in pak oil HQ. Last week, for the first time gas pipe lines were blown up, precisely when pakistan was offering iran india pipe line.
At last the jihadists are expressing their political opinion, first pakistan has to become a true jihadic country. They are talking about making friday holiday. No talk about investments, trade nothing.
It is time for pakistanis to forget about one sleach and focus on the substantive infrastructure built by Zia.
Today there is an explosion in pak oil HQ. Last week, for the first time gas pipe lines were blown up, precisely when pakistan was offering iran india pipe line.
At last the jihadists are expressing their political opinion, first pakistan has to become a true jihadic country. They are talking about making friday holiday. No talk about investments, trade nothing.
It is time for pakistanis to forget about one sleach and focus on the substantive infrastructure built by Zia.
#23 Posted by jay on February 3, 2003 6:43:41 am
Pakistani student detained in US
By Our Correspondent
SAN FRANCISCO, Feb 2: A Pakistan student with a valid visa was arrested at the Houston airport while returning after vacations. Ms Samina Faheem, National Coordinator of American Muslim Alliance , a leading organizations of American Muslims with about 100 chapters in 34 states, said that Mr Ahsan Farooq, who was enrolled at the Tomball Community College, Houston, Texas, was detained while returning after vacations.
///so much of talk about the suffering of the muslims, not even a single article to denounce jihad and kafir killings.
By Our Correspondent
SAN FRANCISCO, Feb 2: A Pakistan student with a valid visa was arrested at the Houston airport while returning after vacations. Ms Samina Faheem, National Coordinator of American Muslim Alliance , a leading organizations of American Muslims with about 100 chapters in 34 states, said that Mr Ahsan Farooq, who was enrolled at the Tomball Community College, Houston, Texas, was detained while returning after vacations.
///so much of talk about the suffering of the muslims, not even a single article to denounce jihad and kafir killings.
#22 Posted by tahmed32 on February 3, 2003 6:43:41 am
amit #19 I think the point you make about the ends not justifying the means is not only morally sound, it also is a good guide for practical actions. And the reason for the latter is that the ``ends`` to which someone is focussed are not the only option, and alternatives - often far better in the long run - are available. In case of palestine this means that palestinians should think of substituting confrontation with israel `` (and ``confrontation`` itself means different things to different palestinians I am sure), with a different ``end``, namely the ``educational and economic betterment``. This means required for this end (i.e. development resources) are available in abundance and do not require making enemies or violence of any kind.
Land is increasingly irrelevant as a factor of production anyway, while knowledge is increasingly relevant.
Land is increasingly irrelevant as a factor of production anyway, while knowledge is increasingly relevant.
#21 Posted by tahmed32 on February 3, 2003 6:43:41 am
American Express #18 I agree with you that both Israel and Pakistan should remain separate states. However, I think it is academic to say, as you do, that both share the same (religious) basis for creation and that is why both have a ``right``. However, the reason I agree is because these states are already there. Any attempt to undo either of the two states would cost human life. And the life of a single human being is worth more than any political boundary. Political boundries may peacefully dissolve through the willingness of populations concerned (as is happening in Europe). But it is criminal, I think, to try to change them through violent means. Since there is nothing sacred about nation-states despite all the bs that one reads on chowk between ``Indian`` and ``Pakistani`` patriots. And there is plenty sacred about human life.
#20 Posted by Urstruly on February 3, 2003 6:43:40 am
Excellent reportage Bina.
I don`t think anyone, including religion, is in a position to give sanctimonious shitt to Palestinians about whether suicide bombings are moral or not. It is not a failure of Palestinian morality, it is a failure of us as human beings for we are responsible for their misery.
#19 Posted by amit on February 2, 2003 11:25:18 pm
Re:tahmed32#17
I think Palestinians need to realize that ends do not justify the means, irrespective of how legitimate their objective is. Setting off suicide bombs in populated cafes and causing civilian deaths is no way to achieve any kind of political goal. It cheapens the struggle and creates a demonic image that the Israelis have successfully exploited. So the Palestinians need to stop using these means, not as a strategic cease fire, but as a fundamental change in strategy.
What is really tragic is that the Palestinians actually have a very strong case. They have lost most of their original country, become refugees and are occupied in the small amount of land that they inhabit. Their conditions would have generated a lot of sympathy in the west, were it not for the collective guilt felt by the west about the holocaust against jews. The determination to see Israel survive and succeed comes from this guilt, which currently outweighs the sympathy for Palestinians. So, the best the Palestinians can hope for is that both Israelis and Palestinians are viewed with the same level of sympathy. Essentially that means, settling for a compromise, along the lines proposed by Barak and Clinton. If the Palestinians are smart, they can get quite creative in this matter. For e.g. get their own state on West Bank and Gaza and demand a ``green card`` for living and working in Israel, in exchange for permanent peace.
I think Palestinians need to realize that ends do not justify the means, irrespective of how legitimate their objective is. Setting off suicide bombs in populated cafes and causing civilian deaths is no way to achieve any kind of political goal. It cheapens the struggle and creates a demonic image that the Israelis have successfully exploited. So the Palestinians need to stop using these means, not as a strategic cease fire, but as a fundamental change in strategy.
What is really tragic is that the Palestinians actually have a very strong case. They have lost most of their original country, become refugees and are occupied in the small amount of land that they inhabit. Their conditions would have generated a lot of sympathy in the west, were it not for the collective guilt felt by the west about the holocaust against jews. The determination to see Israel survive and succeed comes from this guilt, which currently outweighs the sympathy for Palestinians. So, the best the Palestinians can hope for is that both Israelis and Palestinians are viewed with the same level of sympathy. Essentially that means, settling for a compromise, along the lines proposed by Barak and Clinton. If the Palestinians are smart, they can get quite creative in this matter. For e.g. get their own state on West Bank and Gaza and demand a ``green card`` for living and working in Israel, in exchange for permanent peace.
#17 Posted by tahmed32 on February 2, 2003 3:04:37 pm
Bina: I think we Pakistanis should have nothing to do with the Palestinian politics. They (Israelis and Arabs) have been killing one another for fifty years, and they will keep on doing so until one of two things happens: (a) One side militarily prevails and the other side is defeated - this is not going to happen from all indications. The whole thing is a military stalemate - the only likely thing militarily is that the Israelis throw all the palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza. They are capable of doing that militarily, and the Arabs are incapable of stopping them. But Israel cant go further than that, I think, even if it wanted too. And the Arabs simply lack the capacity to do anything more than murder civilians. (b) The Arabs come to their senses, and realize they have been banging their heads against a brick wall. And also realize that there is enough room in the middle east for both arabs and israel. What is driving the palestinians is frustration, anger, pride. Not rational calculations.
They say a fool does the same thing as a wise man, but only after much time and suffering. With no disrespect meant for the palestinians, I think therefore that (b) is what will happen sooner or later.
If the Pakistan government really cares for the sufferings of the palestinian people, it would seek to promote (b), rather than encouraging palestinians to continue their senseless course of action. Unfortunately with friends like those in Pakistan and in Arab countries, the palestinians do not need any enemies.
They say a fool does the same thing as a wise man, but only after much time and suffering. With no disrespect meant for the palestinians, I think therefore that (b) is what will happen sooner or later.
If the Pakistan government really cares for the sufferings of the palestinian people, it would seek to promote (b), rather than encouraging palestinians to continue their senseless course of action. Unfortunately with friends like those in Pakistan and in Arab countries, the palestinians do not need any enemies.
#12 Posted by Ansari on February 2, 2003 6:12:21 am
cheese,
``no efforts made in this vein..why bhai?``
that would make sense, you see. we can`t have that happening, silly girl!
``no efforts made in this vein..why bhai?``
that would make sense, you see. we can`t have that happening, silly girl!
#11 Posted by i-am-the-cheese on February 2, 2003 5:02:46 am
attended one of her lectures yesterday...i thought karmi wasnt a particularly powerful orator but what she had to say made sense... suicide bombing is tragic, she said repeatedly... instead of being labelled monstrous and horrific every time it happens, why dont the people with so many eons old civilizations try figure out in all their wisdom why its happening? no efforts made in this vein..why bhai?
#10 Posted by Ahmadzai on February 2, 2003 5:02:46 am
I would just like to point out that Palestinians term themselves as Arabs and always appeal to Arab unity raher than Muslim. This is because both Muslim and Christian Palestinians are fighting for their just cause alongside each other. Hence, bringing religion would be detrimental to their cause.
I just wanted to mention this because Pakistanis castigate Palestinians on their lack of support for a `Muslim` Kashmir in turn for Pakistan`s support for them.
Again, Palestinians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris need to fight for their cause on diplomatic and media front, as most of the wars are being fought and won in these arenas these days.
I just wanted to mention this because Pakistanis castigate Palestinians on their lack of support for a `Muslim` Kashmir in turn for Pakistan`s support for them.
Again, Palestinians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris need to fight for their cause on diplomatic and media front, as most of the wars are being fought and won in these arenas these days.
#9 Posted by ferozk on February 2, 2003 5:02:46 am
Re: Bina
Jihad is not going to solve the Palestinians` problem. If one moves beyond the emotional appeal to the problem, it soon becomes clear that root of the problem is multi-natured. There is no legitimate representation of the Palestian cause; there is the acute frustration from the Israeli occupation; there is no economic hope for the territories; there is the feeling of being ignored by the world and being the orphans of the Muslim world.
Israeli policies are not without blame and Ariel Sharon`s policy towards the problem is only increasing the cycle of violence. The need is to end the violence, but for that to happen the methodology of jihad, as a political leverage, has to be discarded. Isreal has to deal with the immediate and pressing problems of the territories and both sides have to realize and admit that violence is not the answer to their problems. The daily humilatations of the Palestinians has to end, otherwise a new generation will simply adopt anger and resentment as an expression of their frustrations. Both the Palestinians and the Israelis have to start the slow process of re-humanizing each other and stop demonizing each other. Empathy for the other`s legitimate concerns will have to be created and more than, a level of tolerance will have to found, which allows meaningful dialogue which addresses the causes of this problem. Like another crisis, in another part of the world, the solution does not lie with the politicans, but with the ordinary people. Politics is a part of the problem in the region and not a solution, but ironically this a political crisis and it will be only solved through secular politics.
Violence has to be rejected in its totality and in all its manifestations, regardless of its justifications.
Ciao
Jihad is not going to solve the Palestinians` problem. If one moves beyond the emotional appeal to the problem, it soon becomes clear that root of the problem is multi-natured. There is no legitimate representation of the Palestian cause; there is the acute frustration from the Israeli occupation; there is no economic hope for the territories; there is the feeling of being ignored by the world and being the orphans of the Muslim world.
Israeli policies are not without blame and Ariel Sharon`s policy towards the problem is only increasing the cycle of violence. The need is to end the violence, but for that to happen the methodology of jihad, as a political leverage, has to be discarded. Isreal has to deal with the immediate and pressing problems of the territories and both sides have to realize and admit that violence is not the answer to their problems. The daily humilatations of the Palestinians has to end, otherwise a new generation will simply adopt anger and resentment as an expression of their frustrations. Both the Palestinians and the Israelis have to start the slow process of re-humanizing each other and stop demonizing each other. Empathy for the other`s legitimate concerns will have to be created and more than, a level of tolerance will have to found, which allows meaningful dialogue which addresses the causes of this problem. Like another crisis, in another part of the world, the solution does not lie with the politicans, but with the ordinary people. Politics is a part of the problem in the region and not a solution, but ironically this a political crisis and it will be only solved through secular politics.
Violence has to be rejected in its totality and in all its manifestations, regardless of its justifications.
Ciao
#8 Posted by rozaiba on February 2, 2003 5:02:45 am
yeah naqshbandi,
where does it say that that region is cursed with everlasting jihad?
americanexpress:
the Prophet once said `war is strategy`. strategy is the important word. adopting violence without any strategy is stupidity and deserves to fail. what were the words of ol man bala...something like apni taqat pay naaz hai nadanoun ko...what strength?
palestiine cause as you say has dwindling support. and naturally so. without public support, nothing can be achieved. non violent methods are the way to go- they`ve shown to work- in america, in india, in south africa. there are thousands of jews in israel who support peace but hesitate to actively pursue it due to the fear of being compromised by the stupidity of the violence prone palestineans.
i know little about history. but in modern history, apart from Cuba, has any country ever achieved true independence through a violent revolutionary struggle?
where does it say that that region is cursed with everlasting jihad?
americanexpress:
the Prophet once said `war is strategy`. strategy is the important word. adopting violence without any strategy is stupidity and deserves to fail. what were the words of ol man bala...something like apni taqat pay naaz hai nadanoun ko...what strength?
palestiine cause as you say has dwindling support. and naturally so. without public support, nothing can be achieved. non violent methods are the way to go- they`ve shown to work- in america, in india, in south africa. there are thousands of jews in israel who support peace but hesitate to actively pursue it due to the fear of being compromised by the stupidity of the violence prone palestineans.
i know little about history. but in modern history, apart from Cuba, has any country ever achieved true independence through a violent revolutionary struggle?
#6 Posted by jay on February 1, 2003 11:19:37 pm
Bina,
The problem with the palestinians is that the society does not tolerate multiplicity of views. No one in palestine can say that terrorism should stop and hope to see another sun rise.
All of the muslims complain about islam being portrayed badly, the fact is that the world is against only one aspect of islam, the jihad, the idea that every muslim has to search for the non-innocent kafir and kill him.
So many muslims keep ta;lking about what jihad is, it is the fight against the internal eveil blah blah..no one dares to say what it is not.
The day a muslim country, for that matter aly muslim leader dares to say that, no jihad is not killing of kafirs...it would be a new day for islam.
Even on the anonymity of chowk, no pakistani dares to say what jihad is not, the simple fact is that ISI will be after them.
The problem with the palestinians is that the society does not tolerate multiplicity of views. No one in palestine can say that terrorism should stop and hope to see another sun rise.
All of the muslims complain about islam being portrayed badly, the fact is that the world is against only one aspect of islam, the jihad, the idea that every muslim has to search for the non-innocent kafir and kill him.
So many muslims keep ta;lking about what jihad is, it is the fight against the internal eveil blah blah..no one dares to say what it is not.
The day a muslim country, for that matter aly muslim leader dares to say that, no jihad is not killing of kafirs...it would be a new day for islam.
Even on the anonymity of chowk, no pakistani dares to say what jihad is not, the simple fact is that ISI will be after them.
#5 Posted by Ras on February 1, 2003 11:19:37 pm
SALAM AND SHALOM
This illusion of peace will not be easy
Like the one before Europe developed a late guilt
After the “Final Solution” on helpless Jews
And before the demonizing in the Western Press
Of followers of another monotheistic faith
Who choose to call the same God “Allah”
To hide the anger and memory of genocide
Committed by another people who are forgetful
A once wandering people of the Torah
Ironically practice today a policy of Apartheid
And fight battles in the town where Jesus
Brought peace and spread love to the soul of man.
Not to rekindle our already many biases
At the Al Aqsa Mosque or the Wailing Wall
One could only have hoped that the landless Palestinians
Would get a much better deal from a people who
Remained thirsty, many centuries
For a place of their own
But the tanks rolling through Ramallah hint otherwise
Hope keeps us going, as heavy hearts wish for solutions
Hesitant handshakes, children playing, wishing together
But who can change the direction of this hostile wind?
And calm the rage of landless generations as
Their young without dreams become human bombs
Where Salam and Shalom now must coexist.
By
Ras H. Siddiqui
This illusion of peace will not be easy
Like the one before Europe developed a late guilt
After the “Final Solution” on helpless Jews
And before the demonizing in the Western Press
Of followers of another monotheistic faith
Who choose to call the same God “Allah”
To hide the anger and memory of genocide
Committed by another people who are forgetful
A once wandering people of the Torah
Ironically practice today a policy of Apartheid
And fight battles in the town where Jesus
Brought peace and spread love to the soul of man.
Not to rekindle our already many biases
At the Al Aqsa Mosque or the Wailing Wall
One could only have hoped that the landless Palestinians
Would get a much better deal from a people who
Remained thirsty, many centuries
For a place of their own
But the tanks rolling through Ramallah hint otherwise
Hope keeps us going, as heavy hearts wish for solutions
Hesitant handshakes, children playing, wishing together
But who can change the direction of this hostile wind?
And calm the rage of landless generations as
Their young without dreams become human bombs
Where Salam and Shalom now must coexist.
By
Ras H. Siddiqui
#4 Posted by PaagalInsaan on February 1, 2003 8:09:20 pm
Dear Naqshbandi,
Can I know where Allah said that and the precise words, please?
Can I know where Allah said that and the precise words, please?
#3 Posted by rozaiba on February 1, 2003 4:40:49 pm
struggles are an admirable thing.
however, civil disobedience - non violence techniques should be adopted.
however, civil disobedience - non violence techniques should be adopted.
#1 Posted by Naqshbandi on February 1, 2003 4:40:24 pm
thank you Bina for this important and powerful post :-)
Apart from the Guardian and the Independent (especially Robert Fisk`s excellent articles) the majority of the British media is also terribly biased towards the Israelis and any criticism of Israel is immediately brandished as anti-Semitism; the result is that most people here have no clue about the terrible situation the brave and noble Palestinians are enduring. Their struggle for liberation is definitely a jihad and it is a constant shame on the leaders of the Muslim lands that not one of them is doing anything to help our Palestinian brothers and sisters gain their land back and their freedom. I met a person from their and he said that although the Muslim governments don`t help much the peoples of the countries help a lot via monetary contributions and he singled out the Saudis for special praise saying they `give too much!`. He also told me that almost all Palestinians support Hamas` veiwpoint and not the PLO who are discredited...
Allah`s Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said that the people of that region will be undergoing jihad until the Day of Judgement and we know that the whole area is sacred. May Allah grant them freedom soon.
Amin.
Again thanks for highlighting this Palestinian sister`s book--where can one buy it from? What is it called?
Apart from the Guardian and the Independent (especially Robert Fisk`s excellent articles) the majority of the British media is also terribly biased towards the Israelis and any criticism of Israel is immediately brandished as anti-Semitism; the result is that most people here have no clue about the terrible situation the brave and noble Palestinians are enduring. Their struggle for liberation is definitely a jihad and it is a constant shame on the leaders of the Muslim lands that not one of them is doing anything to help our Palestinian brothers and sisters gain their land back and their freedom. I met a person from their and he said that although the Muslim governments don`t help much the peoples of the countries help a lot via monetary contributions and he singled out the Saudis for special praise saying they `give too much!`. He also told me that almost all Palestinians support Hamas` veiwpoint and not the PLO who are discredited...
Allah`s Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said that the people of that region will be undergoing jihad until the Day of Judgement and we know that the whole area is sacred. May Allah grant them freedom soon.
Amin.
Again thanks for highlighting this Palestinian sister`s book--where can one buy it from? What is it called?
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