Stop Indian Atrocities in Kashmir

Cipram # 181, For every dispute, there are basically two options. You can either fight it out and move on, or learn to live with it which is also known as co-existence. With huge military infrastructures on both sides of the border, bound to lose their justification for existence after kashmir is no more a dispute, hopes of sustainable solution to this problem are really very little.

What is needed is the WILL to solve the problem.

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dialogue # 179

sorry you need basic law and order based on something similar to Anglo-Saxon system for any society to function Large parts of India enjoy it. For example Karachi enjoyed excellent law and order till Gen Zia created the MQM. Karachi and Lahore contribute disporportionately to the number of educated Pakistani expatriates in the West.

NWFP of Pakistan has excellent law and order system. It is just based on some medieval legal code which is completely unsuited for the current times

bbabu #178, I think we find it difficlut to replicate good things across borders - although the hate and mistrust have easily been shared with fairly similiar intensity and coverage.

I wonder though if everything like law and order and industry and so on have ot be in place as a pre-condition for having world class academic institutions, what good are such institutions. We need quality educational and specially management institutions, so we can manage law and order and industry and public services at an internationally compareable level. Not the other way around?

dialogue # 176

There are multiple ways of looking at it

1. Contrast the offers to IIM-A grads to the market in USA.

2. Let us see how we can create IIM-A in my home town or home country.

3. As far as ``The number of foreign placements IIM-A graduates get is usually equal to that of all the other IIMs put together.``

Maharastra and Gujarat have been one of the most advanced industrial states - especially privately owned industry. Till recently manufacturing in private sector was most lucrative job market for MBA grads. Ahmedabad is in Gujarat.

4. A lot of things are not replicable in every society. There are cultural factors behind development.

To create IIM-A you need government funding (Bangladesh might not have any), livable urban setting (read no Delhi, Mumbai, karachi), private industry in the vicinity for support and to hire your graduates (no Kerala/West Bengal), merit based admission policy (read no TN), educational advanced culture (pathans/baluchis/sindhis/north east India need not bother) and reasonable law/order situation (no Kashmir/Karachi/Peshwar).

As you see there are very geographical areas that meet all of those criteria.

ali87 #174, I feel what you said in your post about ``. I fact they are not to blame at all. An unknown entity on a personal level to most. ``

It is probably true that people form their opinions about other people through the news andinforamtion they recieve. It is high time that we use this information to project a true and balanced image of Pakistan.

At the same time, information of Indians and Pakistanis and hindu/Muslim about each other is almost nonexistent or very distorted. This is reflected in the state of our relations - non existent and distorted. one wonders who benefits from maintaining these distances.

No one is leaving this subcontinent. We cannot fight ot out? Why than are we not preparing to co-exist? What can be done about it?

Tayyab Rashid

Dear bbabu: Your post # 173, I am not sure how one is supposed to respond to such posts or may be you were just trying to make a point. At the same time, I am very pleased with the kind o fjob offers recieved by the graduateing class.

What has been achieved at IIM-A might have some lessons for Pakistan. The practices from across the border are relevant for us in Pakistan because the operating environment and challenges to institutional performance are very similiar.

However, in your post ``The number of foreign placements IIM-A graduates get is usually equal to that of all the other IIMs put together.`` How does one explain that?

If what IIM-A achieved is not replicable even within india with compareable success, one wonders what is behind these achievements. Is it something other than good management? Because good management practices are often relicable.

Your # 187 in response to ali87 ``Most of the Pakistanis I have met in the USA are ordinary people more concerned with their economic survival. ``


Economic survival is not the focus in pakistan. It is economic growth which is sustainable and connected with the people of the land.

It is this focus which will lead to a solution of Kashmir.

ali87 #174

``Strange as it may sound that an average indian on the web(Read middle class well educated Indian)thinks exactly that ``people in Pakistan seriously spend their time planning ways to do a ``pincer movement`` ````

Most of the Pakistanis I have met in the USA are ordinary people more concerned with their economic survival.

I can state with confidence that there are people in the Pakistani establishment who spend all their time scheming against India. It is not that they will ever achieve their aims. It is more like it is a cover for other activities and agendas unrelated to India they might have. The same is true for a few in the Indian establishment.

#153 by tahmed32 on March 11, 2003 6:37am PT

Strange as it may sound that an average indian on the web(Read middle class well educated Indian)thinks exactly that ``people in Pakistan seriously spend their time planning ways to do a ``pincer movement`` ``



On my recent trip to India I heard story from a Retd army Intelligence Officer about how they had captured a young pakistani boy of 16 smuggling guns into India a decade back near the time of Eid. He told me the story of how he revealed that Indian Muslims are being suppressed and cant practice their religion in freedom and then was taken taken to the Masjid for Eid namaz by a muslim colonel. Later on he refused to belive that it all happened and accused the army of staging the Eid namaz.

I started wondering if Indians are aware of that they think of pakistanis is in a similar manner. I fact they are not to blame at all. An unknown entity on a personal level to most. All that a person knows about pakistan is usually in relation to some issue with the border, kashmir or terrorists, or some militant organisation in Pakistan. Nothing else ever gets reported nor have people access to anything else in other contexts like travel, study, business etc.

In response to the suggestion that backoffice jobs are not a way to measure the country`s progress. It is true but it improves the lives of a lot of people

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IIM-A graduates bag 36 foreign jobs


Ahmedabad, March 18

The 2001-03 batch of the Indian Institute of Managament-Ahmedabad (IIM-A) bagged 36 foreign placements, the same as last year, with the highest offer of US Dollar (USD) 82,000 per annum (p a) from Capital One and an average salary of USD 75,000 p a, little lower than that of last year.

The highest domestic offer of Rs 14 lakh p a came from McKinsey to three students.

The average domestic offer to the other 145 students was Rs 6.2 lakh p a which was higher than the last year`s average of Rs 5.9 lakh p a.

Briefing newspersons in Ahmedabad on Monday about the week-long campus placement which concluded on Sunday, IIM-A director Bakul Dholakia said that 184 students getting 231 offers during campus placement was an encouraging sign, especially in the wake of companies downsizing globally.

It was also encouraging for the Institute to go ahead with increasing the size of the 2003-05 batch to 250-300, he said.

He pointed out that the apparent fall in the salary offered for foreign placements was somewhat misleading as there were students who got up to USD 115,000 p a during lateral placement (those having work experience).

Then, the many of the last year`s foreign recruiters did not turn up this year.

The number of foreign placements IIM-A graduates get is usually equal to that of all the other IIMs put together.

Moreover, there were six new foreign recruiters this year, namely Citigroup Asset Management, ABN Amro, Merril Lynch, Morgan Stanely, Olam International and National Kidney Foundation (Singapore).

Prominent among other companies were Lehman Brothers, Goldman Sachs, HSBC International, Boston Consulting Group, PwC, Tata Strategic Management, Hewitt Associates, HLL, P&G, Colgate Palmolive, GlaxoSmithKline, Coca Cola, Pepsi, ICICI Bank, Kotak, Roulac, Crisil, Congnizant, TCS, HCL Tech, Wipro, Polaris, Mphasis, Federal Express, GE Capital and Tata Adminstrative.

Significantly, the entire process of campus placement is managed by students themselves and the exercise begins months before.

There were 22 students who got offers even before campus placement but 18 of them accepted other jobs during the last seven days.

Every country has its own set of bigots. Even most good decent folks have prejudices. The point of article 168 is to point out differences in Pakistani society based on where one gets educated. I am sure India has its own fault lines even though there are no where as extreme as Pakistan`s.

Pakistan cannot afford to fight India without help of an outside power like USA, China or Gulf Arabs even if Pakistanis wanted to. I wanted to point out the asymmetry. The question of should can be addressed by Pakistanis alone. You are right nations have choices. The choices are quite stark.

Indian record on minorities is quite good compared to multi-ethnic states like Indonesia, Burma, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Nigeria, Ethoipia, Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Iran, Tanzania, post-apartheid South Africa, Malaysia have had comparable or better success than India.

back office operations create jobs, hope, livelihoods and opportunities for Indians especially the younger generations. it has created pollution, water shortages and traffic problems in indian cities. everything considered
back -office jobs create far less pollution than manufacturing jobs. Worst case they have given Indian elites 2 decades of breathing space to fix problems in Indian society.

sustainable development is another isssue. heck you can create a forum to address those issues.

Attaitude change: INDIA AND PAKISTAN as opposed to India OR Pakistan

1. Thanks bbabu. If the purpose of your post # 169 is to point out that pakistan has problems of intolerance, I stand wit you.

2. In your post # 168 ``Pakistan can fight with India provided some wealthy benefactor like USA, Gulf states finance them. No..`` I believe the question is not if Pakistan can fight or not!!! The question is should Pakistan fight India? Or for that matter, should Pakistan fight at all? I think new Pakistan stands for peace and Human rights and friendship. This is a proactive response to the problems of poverty and intolerance which efect quality of our lives.

3. The point I was trying to get across in the above article was that Pakistan needs to and is tryin gto reinvent itself? Change at the national and international level is sweepig the world. Nations have a choice..choice is not whether to change or not. The choice is whether to manage change or not? When nations chose to proactively manage change, it becomes positive change i.e., growth. When nations chose to passively handle change, it tends ot become -ve change.

4. I can give examples of intolerance from india. But rather than trying to annoy you, I chose to make some friends across the border. I chose to be happy with your growth. We (Ind&Pak) share this nook of the planet. And the only future worth living for our future generations will have to be a shared future. (not to say that we have to agree on every thing- actually far from it - too much agreement will make life boring ;-))

5. Problems of intolerance (as you pointed out madrassahs etc) in Pakistan can be handled. These problems should be handled. but we cannot rid our society of Intolerance by being intolerant.

6. I still feel this life can be made worth living in the subcontinent.

7. If transferring back office ops to india is being translated as growth, iam sorry to hear that. Measuring our progress on the established parameters is good. But it would be nice to every once in a while reevaluate relevance of the parameters themselfves. India has a strong spiritual and human perspective, and as such you are positioned uniquely to lead the world in this kind of re-evaluation.

8. With all the love and respect for the americans, I do not think what US is pursuing is sustainable development or development at all. More prozac and liquor is trying to tell us something.

9. Humanity will have to rethink its definition of growth - very soon. Removed from human good and well being, man continues to search for peace in ever more vulnerable earth.

10. What did Gandhi have to say about it?

Attaitude change: INDIA AND PAKISTAN as opposed to India OR Pakistan

1. Thanks bbabu. If the purpose of your post # 169 is to point out that pakistan has problems of intolerance, I stand wit you.

2. In your post # 168 ``Pakistan can fight with India provided some wealthy benefactor like USA, Gulf states finance them. No..`` I believe the question is not if Pakistan can fight or not!!! The question is should Pakistan fight India? Or for that matter, should Pakistan fight at all? I think new Pakistan stands for peace and Human rights and friendship. This is a proactive response to the problems of poverty and intolerance which efect quality of our lives.

3. The point I was trying to get across in the above article was that Pakistan needs to and is tryin gto reinvent itself? Change at the national and international level is sweepig the world. Nations have a choice..choice is not whether to change or not. The choice is whether to manage change or not? When nations chose to proactively manage change, it becomes positive change i.e., growth. When nations chose to passively handle change, it tends ot become -ve change.

4. I can give examples of intolerance from india. But rather than trying to annoy you, I chose to make some friends across the border. I chose to be happy with your growth. We (Ind&Pak) share this nook of the planet. And the only future worth living for our future generations will have to be a shared future. (not to say that we have to agree on every thing- actually far from it - too much agreement will make life boring ;-))

5. Problems of intolerance (as you pointed out madrassahs etc) in Pakistan can be handled. These problems should be handled. but we cannot rid our society of Intolerance by being intolerant.

6. I still feel this life can be made worth living in the subcontinent.

7. If transferring back office ops to india is being translated as growth, iam sorry to hear that. Measuring our progress on the established parameters is good. But it would be nice to every once in a while reevaluate relevance of the parameters themselfves. India has a strong spiritual and human perspective, and as such you are positioned uniquely to lead the world in this kind of re-evaluation.

8. With all the love and respect for the americans, I do not think what US is pursuing is sustainable development or development at all. More prozac and liquor is trying to tell us something.

9. Humanity will have to rethink its definition of growth - very soon. Removed from human good and well being, man continues to search for peace in ever more vulnerable earth.

10. What did Gandhi have to say about it?

if the survey is true it is interesting

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On February 22, 2003, sectarian terrorists gunned down nine people in Malir, Karachi. The victims were Shia seminarians from Gilgit. The next day, a Shia procession staged protests in Karachi and attacked two restaurants with American franchises. This was in consonance with the Shia seminarian belief that America was responsible for the killing of the Shia in Pakistan and Afghanistan. (This belief makes the Taliban allies of the United States. The Taliban, who thought America was on the side of Iran, discovered Iranian weapons caches in Mazar-i-Sharif with Marg Bar Amrika written on the boxes.)

In the week that followed there were violent Shia demonstrations in Gilgit, a northern city already transformed into a cauldron of Shia-Sunni terrorism since the Islamisation of General Zia. After months of low-intensity sectarian strife, Pakistan was treated to another war of the madrassas. Are the madrassas responsible for the spread of extremist religious belief in Pakistan? Most Pakistanis think not. Yet the general narrowing of the Pakistani mind coincides with the rise of the madrassas and the induction into jihad of a particular brand of believers whose madrassas have come to dominate the country.

Ideology of ‘exclusion’ and madrassas: According to a report by Islamabad’s Institute of Policy Studies, Pakistan has 6,761 religious seminaries where over a million young men are taking religious training. The Ministry of Religious Affairs has given out similar numbers in its report. But Herald (November 2001) says: “According to the Interior Ministry, there are some 20,000 madrassas in the country with nearly 3 million students”.

In 1947, West Pakistan had only 245 seminaries. In 1988, they increased to 2,861. Between 1988 and 2000, this increase comes out to be 136 percent. Deobandi seminaries account for 64 percent of the total followed by Barelvi at 25 percent. Only 6 percent are Ahl-e-Hadith.

According to a 2002 report of the International Crisis Group, there are around 1.5 million pupils being trained in 10,000 seminaries in Pakistan. The report came to the conclusion that the Pakistan government had failed to carry out reform of its madrassas under the UN Security Council resolution 1373. The Deobandi dominance of the madrassas is ominous because the Deobandis are traditionally anti-Shia and their influential Sipah-e-Sahaba party has called for the ‘official’ reduction of all Shias to non-Muslims. An offshoot of Sipah-e-Sahaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, has been killing Shias in Pakistan.

While the worldview of the average Pakistani is close to the thinking of the clergy in Pakistan, sectarianism is not widespread in Pakistan. Sectarian killings are a set-piece war within Pakistan, which most Pakistanis and the government view with incredulity, often seeing a ‘foreign hand’ behind it. There is a general belief that the Pakistani people are not narrow-minded, views expressed in the Urdu press notwithstanding. The narrow view of the world springs from the process of nation building undertaken from 1947 onwards with the help of textbook indoctrination and the official media.

A corollary of this worldview is ‘exclusion’ and intolerance of minorities. The Shia community in Pakistan is a ‘potential’ minority and can be viewed as a victim of the ‘exclusion’ embedded in state ideology that is still not ‘fully enforced’. Hindu, Christian and Ahmedi minorities are already targets of this process of ‘exclusion’, while the ‘exclusion’ of the Shia community is not yet supported by an insufficiently ‘ideologised’ average citizen. People have often wondered about the views nurtured by the madrassas in Pakistan about the minority communities, but no concrete research had been available.

Measuring militancy and intolerance: This now stands changed somewhat after a survey conducted by scholar Dr Tariq Rehman and carried in Dawn (February 23, 2003) as “Tolerance and militancy among schoolchildren”. Carried out in December 2002 and January 2003, the survey was based on a sample of 488 students from Class-10 and 192 teachers at Urdu-medium, English-medium and religious schools or madrassas.

On militancy, the question framed was, Should Pakistan take Kashmir from India in an open war? 59% of Urdu-medium school students said no, 64% of English-medium school students said no, and 59% of madrassa students said yes. On whether Pakistan should take Kashmir through jihadi organisations, the response from Urdu- and English-medium students was no by 45% and 60% respectively. On the question whether Pakistan should support cross-border infiltration into Kashmir, Urdu- and English-medium students said no by 75% and 72% respectively while 54% of madrassa students said yes.

Dr Rehman judged ‘tolerance’ by asking whether Ahmedis should be allowed equal employment opportunities in the workplace. Surprisingly, given Pakistan’s almost primordial hatred of the Ahmedis, Urdu- and English-medium students replied yes by 46% and 65% respectively (Urdu students saying no by 36%), while madrassa students said no by 82 percent! To the question whether Pakistan should give equal rights to Pakistani-Hindus in all jobs, Urdu- and English-medium students said yes with 47% and 78% respectively (Urdu ones saying no by 42%), while madrassa students said no with 76%. To the question whether Pakistan should give equal rights to Pakistani-Christians in all jobs, Urdu- and English-medium students said yes by 65% and 83%, while madrassa students said no by 73%. To the question whether Pakistan should give equal rights to women, Urdu- and English-medium students said yes with 75% and 90% respectively while madrassa students said no by 77%.

Some unexpected findings: Dr Rehman was able to draw the following conclusion from the above survey: “This survey, though non-random and only conducted in cities, tells us how polarised we are as a society. The madrassa stream, which comes from very impoverished sections of society, thinks so differently from the westernised elite that they live in different worlds. It is good to know that most young people do not want a war in Kashmir but the young Islamists do support it. Moreover, most of our young people are biased against minorities. They do not want them to be treated as equal citizens. Those who do support equal rights for them, students of elite English-medium schools, are alienated from Pakistani culture and are full of contempt for their fellow citizen in the Urdu-medium schools and madrassas.

“Perhaps what is most disturbing is that madrassa students should be so militant, so intolerant of minorities and from such poor families. Is it because we have let down the poor so badly that they have turned to the religious seminaries? Is our indifferent, alienated English-speaking elite living blithely on borrowed time? Are we about to witness the revolt of the dispossessed using the idea of religious superiority? Will this revolt turn Pakistan into an intolerant state on the warpath against everyone else? And if this happens, can Pakistan survive?”

Perhaps one can also say that the Urdu-medium school opinion too is alienated from that in madrassas. It is also alienated, very surprisingly, from the state that has apostatised the Ahmedis and points to the failure of the policy of state indoctrination. The fact that a majority of the Urdu schooled did not support either the war on Kashmir or cross-border infiltration denotes their alienation from the state in its ‘deniable’ policy on Kashmir. What is most interesting is that the general tenor of response from the Urdu-medium students goes against the worldview of the Urdu press in Pakistan. It should give pause to the military leadership and the civilian politicians presumably working on the basis of what they think is the worldview of the people of Pakistan.

English-medium schools may be in denial of Pakistan’s ideology but they are the most tolerant. This should give pause to the liberal elements in Pakistan supporting the closure of ‘elitist’ English-medium schools or bringing them under state control. While there are few takers for the policy that madrassas should be brought under state control, there is overwhelmingly liberal support to the proposal that English-medium institutions be brought under state control. Those who favour the removal of English as the official medium of communication should note that tolerance in Pakistan is certain only in English-medium schools and that Urdu-medium schools are tolerant to a certain extent but definitely more tolerant than madrassas. If Dr Rehman sees Pakistan’s survival in tolerance, then English-medium elitism is right for us. The Urdu-medium school trend against ‘exclusion’ should also be encouraged.

Failure under Resolution 1373: The Brussels-based International Crisis Group is headed by former president of Finland Martti Ahtisaari and counts Jordan’s Prince Hassan bin Talal among its members. It is influential in the formulation of policy in the European Union and the United States. Its report “Pakistan: Madrassa, Extremism and the Military” (2002) concludes as follows:

“It is doubtful whether the military government (in Pakistan) has the intent or the will to set Pakistani society on a sustainable course that would lead to political pluralism and religious tolerance. On a key test – reform of madrassas, Pakistani religious schools that breed extremism of many hues – the military government thus far has acted weakly. Madrassas provide free religious education, boarding and lodging and are essentially schools for the poor. About a third of all children in Pakistan… attend madrassas. These seminaries run on public philanthropy and produce indoctrinated clergymen of various Muslim sects. Some sections of the more orthodox Muslim sects have been radicalised by state sponsored exposure to jihad, first in Afghanistan, then in Kashmir. However, the madrassa problem goes beyond militancy.

“Over a million and a half students at more than 10,000 seminaries are being trained, in theory, for service in the religious sector. But their constrained worldview, lack of modern civic education and poverty make them a destabilising factor in Pakistani society. For all these reasons, they are also susceptible to romantic notions of sectarian and international jihads, which promise instant salvation. The Musharraf government has pledged, as many previous Pakistani governments have done, to change the status of madrassas and integrate them into the formal education sector. It has also pledged to reform the madrassa system as part of its anti-terrorism actions in fulfilment of UNSC Resolution 1373. However, these pledges have not been backed by decisive action or a credible plan to remake the system within a reasonable timeframe.”

dialogue # 166

Middle class has been mediocre because of the license raj and vestiges of the caste/class system. As those break down over time Indian middle classes will do well and excel. Look no further from the massive shift in back office operations to India.

There is nothing wrong in India co-operating with USA on matters of mutual interests. The same is true for Pakistan.

Okay I should be more careful about generalizations.

Pakistani behavior has an impact upon Hindu-Muslim relations in some areas in some Northern and Western India. Kashmir is a mess. Beyond that most problems in India are self-inflicted and self-imposed.

India can grow despite tensions with Pakistan. The performance of the Indian economy in the 1990`s was an ample proof to it. Pakistan can fight with India provided some wealthy benefactor like USA, Gulf states finance them. No such money has been forthcoming these days.

Do not get me wrong. India-Pakistan peace is good for both sides. It don`t think it prevents India from making progress on all fronts. It seems to hobble Pakistan. Something Pakistanis have to ponder.

hi bbabu:
Your Post 164 ``I really don`t care. I don`t think most middle class Indians care. The abdul is a bigger threat to the people who finances and arms them.

Are you sure you are not confusing middle class and mediocre class?