Islam in Crisis (Part2)

ferozk,

#55

Outstanding post!

When I read posts re Islam as interpreted by you, tahmed et all, your religion impresses me to no end. I`m glad at the way you addressed mohar---your self identity, self esteem is the product of the teachings of your parents, teachers, ``church/mosque`` etc etc. In other words your/our superegos shape our ``ego``. DOESNT MATTER what ``other people`` think of you!-be that person a ``true`` muslim or a bigotted idol worshipping kafir.

{{Mohar11, who died and made you my judge, jury and excutioner?}}

I havent read mohar`s ``accusations`` ...but it doesnt matter...in my life`s experience, the people who are the LEAST qualified to judge others, tend to do a heck of a lot of judging...& very LOUDLY, at that! You are too polite; I would have said ``Who fu*king died & made you God?!`` :))

So when a hindu bigot like harimou or a muslim bigot like Waqarali mian (btw, has he dissappeared, again?) dislike me cos of who they think I am; I take great pride in telling myself ``Jeeze, if these buttheads turn out to be right & their souls go to ``Heaven``, I`ll GLADLY burn in ``Hell`` in everlasting damnation``!!... I mean, I`ll GLADLY go there hopping & skipping, barefooted, over burning coals, with an idol of penis god tucked under my left armpit & chomping at a cholesterol laden big Mac in my right hand. BTW, I`ve heard there`s an ``all-you-can-eat`` free buffet ...all the Chinese food & dal bhaji you can stuff in your inflamed red-hot stomach...EVERYDAY! in Hell.

One more thing, please tell hamidm that the beer in Hell is boiling hot & sipped like chai ...& fois gras can only be slathered on a piece of idli before its consumed. Cant help it, Hell is for invited guests ONLY! No cynical Islamists looking for free drinks allowed!

cnn reports latest violence in karachi:

8 shites killed by sunni extremists(ofcourse, it is not pogrom(it is called
sectarism as per praful bidwai, uncle mushy...)) if muslims kill fellow muslims, then god help other non-muslims.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/22/pakistan.mosque.ap/index.html

...here we go again...this has all been said before on chowk, by all of you in fact...don`t you all get bored?...

Feroze asks:

````How can we better ourselves, when we assume that we are prefect from birth and there is nothing for us to improve upon? Is that not arrogance? ````

Yes Feroz -- we the Muslim have a perfect Religion -- a perfect Prophet --a perfect Book -- and a Perfect God -- perfectly unchangng and perfectly immutable for --ALL TIMES TO COME -- Eternity -- Infinity

And believe me it`s NOT -- pure arrogance -- it `s Pure Pyote

Ferozk #55

Now that mohar11 has clarified.

``In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think!``

Ferozk, you should read(or watch) the play by Arthur Miller, the Crucible about the Salem witch hunts which he was inspired to write during the McCarthy period. Its eerie to see playing out in an unconnected time and situation exactly the same situation that we (on the subcontinent) have become very familiar with these days, namely hypocrites wielding the moral authority of religion to denounce and punish others, a moral authority which was never theirs in the first place.

Umer Murtaza: I have said many times that Islam`s crisis or fall does not matter to me but Muslims are people including all of my family members and most friends and Pakistan and Panjab. I am concerned for them and wish them best.

Saminashah: I agree with your post. The first step is separation of religion from community and collective affairs like development, social justice, politics, education etc. That is what I meant by reducing enthusiasm for spiritual diffusing into practical to the extent of becoming sole determining factor - call it a clogged filter or a clogged sieve.

The diffrence between FerozK and moe is that he questions Islam whereas I challenge it on comparative basis with the collective knowledge and wisdom from anywhere and everywhere. I also refuse to accept revelations and cognitions at par or above knowledge and wisdom.

I also do not consider solitary contemplations, meditations in caves or under tree or top of Mount Sinai or hanging in the well upside down for three days or holding breath for 15 minutes underwater or standing forty days on one foot in the icy waters somewhere in the foothill of Himalaya as superior service to humanity than a person who is directly contributing to humanity by working and doing rational things for normal living and those whose work has contributed towards uplifting living conditions.

Ferozk 55

``I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that and having me killed. ``

It is sad, very very sad.

Even a professional pakibasher has a code of conduct, I will never again lump you with the ilks of tahmed.

Wish you the best

regards

Jayaprakash.

#55 by ferozk
//... I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that.....Islam suggests that knowledge must be gained at all costs and how can knowledge be gained without asking questions//

Hey Feroz ! relax man - I am on your side. Boy! you TOTALY MISUNDERSTOOD my post #41. Blame it on my lack of writing proficiency. I was just being sarcastic in first part of my post #41.

I am not a mullah. I am actually a Kufr. I myself have been branded as Islam-hater, by closet-mullahs crawling here in chowk, for raising questions related to Islam. I suspected that`s mainly because I am Kufr. So, I was quoting you to show how liberal muslims like yourself also taking a similar stand. I was making the point that questioning Islam is NOT same as hating Islam.

I know - as far as Mullahs and closet-mullahs are concerned - liberal muslims like yourself are as bad as Kufrs like me - probably worse. That`s why - in this great debate for rescuing the soul of Islam from clutches of mullahs and jihadis, I have thrown my lot on your side.

I agree with you 100% - that we reserve the right to question everybody, everything under the sun : Gods, sons of gods, prophets of gods, god-men, holy books, korans, bibles, geetas, everything. That does NOT make us hate-mongers. Ranting and raving apologists crawling here in chowk cannot suppress our rights to speak out.

++++

//...I have been called a kufr by my wife in an open court, because my mother was born to Parsi parents and my deceased father was called a Hindu...because we, as a family, do not wear our religion, Islam, on our sleeves//

I understand your pain. The rot in Islamic societies has gone deeper than many realize.

Sameer,

This is genuine curiosity: why are you so interested in the affairs of Muslims (let nature and survival of the fittest seive through those that are worthy of surviving - whilst the chhaan bura remain back) when you have chosen to leave that fold completely.

The reason why I say this is because most people who leave whatever faith or system of belief are usually `lazy` or have a `don`t give a $hit` attitude towards their previous faith. You are not exhibiting that behaviour and I`m just interested to know why.

Thanks
Umer M

Feroz and Sameer,

While I would hazard that neither of you two would completely agree with each other, there are a few principles in your posts that are speak of a more open and reformed Islam:
1. Broader, more progressive and private definitions of Muslim identity.
2. Interdependence with other religious and secular systems in its scholarly, scientific and spiritual disciplines.
3. An emphasis on tolerance and coexistance
4. Separation of religious and political movement
5. An non religious and systematic response to poverty, illiteracy, pop. control, civil anarchy.

How could one bring about these reforms in Pakistan?

harimau #53 The Sultans of Delhi may have been inequitable to hindus, as you say. But then, history is full of man`s injustice (and indeed cruelty) to man (and women and children). Should one then repeat history, inflicting injustice or cruelty when we get the opportunity? Gandhi said (I think) that if we took an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind. And as Jesus said, let he who is innocent cast the first stone.
As mankind progresses further and further away from its animal past, the wisdom behind such views becomes increasingly apparent. As for the Sultans of Delhi, if they were unjust to hindus perhaps one of my ancestors was among those hindus too!! The point is: you cant move in the direction of the future while trying to steer based on the road you see in the rear view mirror.
On the two nation theory: I think the experience of Pakistan in mixing religion with politics is an argument AGAINST, NOT FOR, the separation of religion from politics. Pakistan has lost econmic ground and become politically unstable as a result of this mixing of politics and religion. Why would India not pay the same (and indeed heavier cost, given the much greater population diversity) cost if it were to move away from secularism?? I think India is better off seeing where the progressive nations of the world are headed today, rather than trying to do what these nations have been steadily moving away from over the past few centures.

temporal #45: A billion or more than a billion does not matter. It is not a question of any danger of Muslims disappearing from the face of the earth. The fact is that Muslims are undergogs in every conflict they enter against rest of the world. It is a pretty sad commentary on the plight of a large group of people differentiated by religious practices fromt he rest.

This is not the first time Islam is in crisis. They have been through crisis many times and came out every time falling backward to the basics, dogma and orthodoxy. The Wahabi movement came out of Arab crisis of losing political dominance to Turks. The Syed Ahmed Barelvi and Shah Ismail came out of the crisis of faltering Mughal empire. The deobandism came out to stop indianization of Muslims and converting back, few to Hinduism and large number to Sikhism. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Shibli Nomani came out to cope arrival of British and Shibli bhai won over Sir Syed in general and later Ali brothers of Khilafat Movement.

That is what I do not trust finding solution from within as Shariati, Iqbal, Soroush and Hussein Nasr are proposing. This tendency can only change by outright defeat and not micromanaging crisis. Why can`t Muslim learn from Francis Bacon, Descartes or Emanuel Kant instead of relying exclusively on desi and Iranian religious scholars.

The Islamic crisis is so profound even in places like Indonesia where a tiny 3 percent Chinese control 75 percent of the economy. Same is true in Malaysia. Are you suggesting to Indonesian and Malaysian to read and follow Shariati, Iqbal, Soroush and Nasr instead of just learning from their neighbors - the Chinese population?

How can one blame colonialism and imperialism etc for having 5.3 children per mother? How can they blame anybody but themselves to spent lifetime saving in one shot of going to Mecca from all over th world and coming back with some holy water and dates after spending equivalent of 2-3 thousand dollars? Who is to blame when lower middle and middle class families spent 6-8 thosand rupees for killing a goat and not using it to improve the living standard or buying consumer durables.

Muslim must totally ignore all these Islamic liberation theologians and reformers. Instead they must lower the enthusiasm for religious practices and instead of reinventing green color Islamic wheel, learn from the worldwide examples of successful people and much admired scientific and rational plilosophies.

Embedded in relying on Islamic liberation theologian is the assumption that Islam is a superior religion and can become a leading light to the world if followed with modifications. First of all it is a fantasy, second rest of the world has proven more successful without it and thirdly the rigidity of belief stemming from unadultrated words of god.

Nothing short of realization by Muslims that Islam is contributing to their decline would do the job. Resisting the world with proven underdog status must be the last thing on their mind. Yet, the success of MMA in Karachi of all places depicts the resilience and resistance mindedness of Muslims after losing in Afghanistan. Instead of live and let live, the Islamic motto is `live like Taliban or die`.

Afghanistan experience should have opened the eyes next door by abandoning MMA. How can any woman vote for MMA preaching Taliban style government? What did Pakistan get by following Islam more and more. We got more and more population, more and more drug and Kalashnikov culture, more and more madrassah and jihadi culture, more sectarian violence. All this in exchange for place in heaven on judgement day, perhaps.

Muslims can not be oscillating between five blind ulemas (one dead, one in prison and three alive in Gaza, Indonesia and Algeria. Add noe more one-eyed jack Mulla Omar to make them six) and five liberation theologians (two dead, one near death and two living in the comfort of the west). Learn from the world experience and not just Islamic experience just as most knowledge is learned from common wordly non-Islamic knowledge. What would be Islamic Chemistry, Physics or Biology? Same is true about Humanities, Economics and Sociology. This is the pot where the soup and meat is. Islamic theologians, liberation or orthodox are stirring empty pots. No matter how Quran is interpretted, it would have no bearing on the outcome of Muslims unless they adopt the well researched and realtime tested non-Muslim modelities.

Re: Mohar11

I am simply stating that Muhammad was a man and during his life time, he always claimed that he was a messenger of God and not a god. The pope`s decisons are considered infallible, but does that make them right? The doctrine of infallibility is a human concept and is not to be found in nature. Man, by defination, is flawed and such, all his creations are not perfect. Islam suggests, and please correct me if I am wrong, that salvation lies in bettering ourselves as human beings. How can we better ourselves, when we assume that we are prefect from birth and there is nothing for us to improve upon? Is that not arrogance?

I do not hate Islam, though it is so easy to silence me by saying that and having me killed. Where is the tolerance in Islam then, which Islam claims as a religion? Muslims, in the recent past, have condenmed more Muslims as non-belivers than they have converted non-believers to Islam. You can kill me easily by suggesting what you did, but will you have agreement to your logic by silencing dissent? No, you will simply have my dead body and not my consensus to your viewpoint. Are you going to kill everyone, who disagrees with your believes? Are you and your religion that insecure and fearful? Are you yourself fearful of the truth and do not wish to discover it lest it upsets your false assumptions?

If you wish, please go right ahead and kill me by twisting my words, but killing me is not going to stop the pursuit of knowledge and questions and if you fear questions being asked, then you have misunderstood the message of Islam, which suggests that knowledge must be gained at all costs and how can knowledge be gained without asking questions?

You yourself stated that to question Islam is have the mullahs ``pounce`` on the questioner. Are you not doing the same to me by pouncing on me for questioning things about Islam? Are you a hypocrite with a faith in hypocricy of double standards. Islam`s greatest contribution to human development, in my view, is the concept of social justice. How are the Muslims going to implment this social justice, when they profess a believe in hypocricy grounded in a moral apartheid?

Mohar11, who died and made you my judge, jury and excutioner? Whether I am a bad Muslim or a good Muslim is for Allah to judge and not you! Who gives you the right to judge another Muslim and is it not this hypocritical assumption, which leads to intolerance within Islam, because we have created a distinction of ``good Muslims`` and ``bad Muslims``. I have been called a kufr by my wife in an open court, because my mother was born to Parsi parents and my deceased father was called a Hindu because she did not think that his name was Islamic or Muslim, and because we, as a family, do not wear our religion, Islam, on our sleeves. Allah knows the truth and that is all I care, regardless of what the world opts to believe or not to believe.

I am Muslim by birth and Islam resides in my heart and I do not need a ``good conduct`` certificate from my fellow Muslims to be considered as a Muslim! As a Muslim, I try to be honest to the message of Islam and not to practice it as a ritual to balm a gulity conscience. In finality, I will be judged by Allah and it is His verdict, on my status as a Muslim, which is final and binding and not your personal opinions about the virtues of who is a Muslim and to decide what they should think! I will also tell you and your ilk something else. The world does not hate Islam or its followers, but it does dislike them for their act of hypocricy in the name of Islam.

So, please twist my words as a pretext to silencing my questions by killing me if you wish, because as a Muslim I believe that the real life starts in the hereafter and this life is a but a preparation for the hereafter. By having me killed for questioning Islam, you will simply be sending me to my God sooner than I had anticipated and for that, I will be eternally in your debt. Thank you!

Ciao

Ref ana_dobarah #49

[last night i watched a 45-minute film called `Gujarat--A Laboratory of the Hindu Rastra.`` It was quite revealing in terms of the BJP, the Hindu priests that defended the carnage in Gujarat, and what their vision for India in the not-so-distant future is.]

It is always possible to selectively quote from speeches to make Gujarat into an Orwellian dictatorship. The pseudo-secularists of the Congress Party and their hangers-on in the Press and mass media are afraid that their message of vote-bank politics does not have a future in India. If the vote bank is Muslims against individual castes amongst Hindus, these people believe they can win the elections. What they are afraid of is that Hindus of all castes are sick and tired of this bullcrap and have decided that they are Hindus first and last. This they cannot stomach and hence the daily drumbeat of Op-Ed articles against all of BJP, not just against Gujarat and Narendra Modi. The more they do this, the more the Hindus are convinced that the Indian government is mollycoddling the minorities.

Urstuly probably can list the number of dead in communal riots in India since 1950. You will find that there have been more riots and more killed under Congress rule than under BJP.

[perhaps no one in India will give a ## about this either,...]

Except the apologists of the Nehru-Gandhi family. So long as the message is bash-the-BJP, you can be sure that a whole lot of people are going to say, ``Screw them all``.

[...and unfortunately, due to its content, a whole lot of people won`t be able to see it. The filmmaker is on tour right now in the US.]

There is very little political censorship in India so the filmmaker can definitely screen it here. If not, you can always get an anti-BJP TV station to air it by getting the film transmitted through satellite from the US.

Ref tahmed32 #39

[I find you last sentence somewhat confusing: ``We do have professional agents provocateurs in the Bajrang Dal, VHP, etc. But then, they are doing what they are doing ``to protect Hinduism``. Do you think only Islam can be in danger and needed a separate country to protect it? ``
It seems to me that you do not consider these professional troublemakers (excuse me, my French is a bit weak) to be mere criminals, but merely ``protecting hinduism`` and therefore are convinced that their actions are justified. Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of what you wrote.]

I meant that that in Bajrang Dal and VHP there are people who deliberately bait Muslims. Their slogan is ``Hinduism is in danger in India``. Their slogan is a mirror image of the pre-1947 All-India Muslim League and thus their justification for demanding a ``Hindu nation`` in India.

On the other hand, if historically the Sultans of Delhi and other localities had treated all their subjects equitably, the VHP & Company wouldn`t have a valid argument.

All those who continue to justify the Two-Nation Theory and the creation of Pakistan should at least accept that the arguments of the VHP are as valid as those of the Muslim league.

Or, if they find the shoe pinches, they still need to continue wearing it since they were the shoemakers to begin with.

Romair`s reply (#11) shows what`s wrong with Muslims:

1. An abiding desire to promote a Muslim nation and model where none exists. There is no Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist world, but somehow Muslims keep referring to Muslim world and ummah (nation). Ironically, the most eager to flee from their native Islamic countries for better life in the infidel West, Muslims nevertheless harp endlessly on the theme of Islam and Muslim nation as their guiding philosophy, superior to all others.

2. Constant reference to education per se as the cause/solution of Muslim`s backwardness. Education, as imparted in Muslim countries, is a menace rather than a solution (read Pervez Hoodbhoy`s acticle on this). Take Romair himself. Presumably, he rates himself as educated, as solution rather than problem. But, then, he presents Malaysia as a potential model Islamic state and does so without saying why. It is clear that he knows little or nothing about Malaysia (except that KL has a modern skyline and Malaysia`s per capita income has risen significantly) and does not even care to give us any reason why he thinks Malaysia is such a good country. He has no clue that the West is not all about skylines and per capita income. It has to do with equality before the law, free press, free judiciary, checks and balances, minority rights, equality of the sexes, all of which are not only conspicuous by their absence in his dear model Malaysia but are as far removed from Islamic countries as hell is from heaven.