Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome

Dear Chowkwallahs,

I had absolutely no interest in starting a debate on Jinnah nor did I start one... I am only giving an alternative view to the one given by P-Mishra in #21. I am no believer in ideologies one nation or two nation or whatever... I believe only in Democracy, peace, stability and Good Economics.... In my own view South Asia should break up even further into smaller Republics, but I shudder to think what upheavel that would create.

The way P-Mishra addresses me is indicative of his lack of self respect, not to mention his coverup of the fact that he can`t really come up with a scholarly response... but Clearly P-Mishra knows something the historians didn`t know for he is adamant on proving something that can`t be proved atleast by facts of History... P-Mishra knows something the First Indian constituent Assembly didn`t know because in 1948 that body in which were present men like Nehru, Azad and Patel, passed a resolution paying homage to the life and times of Quaid e Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah...

And he definitely knows something more than Sarat Chanderbose, brother of Netaji and pres of the forward bloc of the Congress who said: ``Mr.Jinnah was great as a lawyer, once great as a Congressman, great as a Leader of Muslims, great as a world politician and diplomat, and greatest as of all as a man of action. By Mr. Jinnah`s passing away, the world has lost one of the greatest statesmen and Pakistan its life-giver, philosopher and guide.``

Too bad Mr.Bose (and pioneering members of the Indian Parliament) didn`t have the clarity of vision that P-Mishra has exhibited when he(P-Mishra) claims that ``history will always link the murders of direct action day with him``... yes indeed History written by psychopaths of Mr.Mishra`s persuasion will always link them together.. How reliable that might be I don`t know... for after all Mr.Mishra has accused me in the past of being sectarianist for taking pride in the success of Rana Bhagwandas a fellow Pakistani on the Supreme Court Bench. Nothing exemplifies Mr.Mishra`s skewness more.

And what of simple metaphors... for Jinnah even the chaos of civil disobedience was abhorrable, so when he finally forged a pistol he was referring to the Gandhi style civil disobedience that ML would now take up... Gandhi referred to his self as the general and his followers as troops.. can one then argue that he too wanted to wage wars?

Rsaxena mentions the wonderful and heartwarming gesture b/w our two cricket teams... too bad he couldn`t take a leaf out of their book... for nothing could stop him from taking personal pot shot in #72.. ah well that is typical ... .

And its always some excuse for Veeresh... if you mention a western Author, he is always on Pakistani payroll, if you mention someone like Arundhati Roy she is just an anti-national communist, and now Khushwant Singh has joined this list... he is a white supremecist, terrorist, Islamic fanatic and an anti-national communist all in one... It seems that these names are reserved for any Indian who doesn`t harbor some anti-Pakistan feelings as Veeresh.


Sameerjb,

I almost completely agree with you (except on the counts of Nehru-Gandhi-Jinnah) ... your idea is not a new one ofcourse... Sir Fazle Hussain, Sikandar Hayat and others believed in this idea... and it found enough expression in Jinnah`s 14 points...

Subcontinent`s unity lay in the diversity of its peoples and that is where both Indian Nationalism and Muslim Nationalism went against the grain of the people... these two ideas were exploded in stages... hence 1947 was stage 1 and 1971 was stage 2... if Pakistan wants to avoid stage three it has to become more federal and less centralized... more liberal and less ideological.
-YLH

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............ jay, if you are not careful they will come and lock you up in a pink padded cell with your soul mate from our corner of hell - urstruly ....... get a grip on yourself - have some idlee or coconut curry....... better yet, have some taudi - they tell me it is the only good thing that ever came out of india ...........

amit #98: You are right. What have we achieved in the last 56 years except poverty, injustice and hate by staying in the mode of independence movement. Kashmir is a non-issue except for the spillover from independence movement.

The ogre let loose by the independence movement is alive, well and kicking. How can we blame anybody or Gujratis when supposedly educated people behave like jerks and displaying tunnel vision, when it comes to pissing matches? Thes topics, as hamidm stated, should have been buried long time ago. They belonged to another time and proven to be both dangerous and useless ideals in modern times.

The dynamics of the ideals in the absence of checks and balances and rule of law took undesired turns, which should have been known to the parties and their leaders who created an atmosphere of unrealistic and irrational dimensions of their ambitions turned ideals. They were political leaders like any other politicians, perhaps slightly better in few aspects.

Like seers, their sayings have become more important than deeds. Hrdly any day goes by when nobody mentions about a speech in Pakistan Legislative assembly in 1947 or Pakistan resolution of 1940.

The big casualty at chowk of this tunnel vision and hate is disappearance of ladies participarion. Out of 101 posts, only sadna participated actively and scout showed her anger for the never ending crap in the name of Gandhi-Jinnah-Nehru and Islam-Hinduism. I have come up with a simple formula to judge the importance of any topic at chowk. If it turns off desi ladies, then it is horse puckey. It is not worth wasting time in reading or writing.

Everybody should look at the list of interactors and count number of posts by female participants and then look in the mirror. Hopefully they will be ashamed of themselves.

Ladies used to participate actively and still do on meaningful topics. Same goes for the institutions and other activities in subcontinent. If women are outside religion heirarchy, clergy, jihad, madrassahs, sangh parivar, fundamentalism, bureaucracy, politics, military, intellectuals, white collar workers or labor force of any kind, then those areas are representative of male chauvinism or horse puckey. The independence movement was totally a male chauvinistic affair.

Yes, we need a totally new progressive and secular vision that is in the service of people before serving countries, nations, politicians, military,............

...how ironic that a$$holes in gujarat are having street fights again while the indian team that won today has hindus, muslims and sikhs playing...

IMPORTANCE OF HISTORY,

Those who wants to forget are the ones waiting for the history to repeat itself. It is the awareness and rejection of nazi history that is guiding germany. Imagine a scenario where the pak view of history is changed, TNT is treated at par with nazism and the man behind it is given the same olace in history as that man with funny mush, it would have been a different pakistan.

Every legislative change in pakistan is consistant with that world view emerging from the founding theory of pakistan. Why no one talks about what every pakistani has to sign and declare before getting a passport. Pl spare me the evils of zia line, since zia there had been three so called secular governments in pakistan, and several dictators, mushy who has changed the constitutuion so funadamentally cannot dare to change the attacks on other religions and the reason is simple, the people of pakistan believe in the founding ideoligy of pakistan, TNT.

It is time that the pakistanis accept the role of history, and those who wants to avaoind talk of history are only supporters of the jihadic turn of pakistan.

NON MALIGNED NEWS,

The news of terrorist attacks on the US consulate in karachi when mushy finished the meeting of non-aligned nations where he expounded the concept of root cause. The following are thestatements issued by the pak delegation.

Mushy- `` there are US troops in pakistan, they are occupying several air bases. Recently a pakistani was taken to the uS and killed. Seceral of afghan and yemeni honoured guests to pakistan have ended up in gundanamo bay. FBI is operating freely in pakistan. Pak people are strugleing for freedom, to everthrow the occupation forces. I have to dig deep to find the roots of the attack in karachi, it may or may not be terror, it could even be legitimate freedom struggle which pakistan supports politically and diplomatically``

Romair, the amnesty rep for pakistan `` Every one knows that pak consulate is heavily guarded, no one can enter it which suggets that there could human rights violations taking place. Other wise why reporters are not allowed, why UN observers are not allowed. The attack could be ligitimate expressions of the people whose rights have been violated``

YLH the pak historian- `` after reading all the books of wolpert, ayesha jala and kushwant sing, I am convinced that direct action as called by the leader means that any one in the direct line of sight can be killed. The freedom fighters were attacking the US garrison and the pak police where in the direct line of fire, and that is OK.``

Maulana tahmed..`` the people in the US consulate were kafirs and those protecting them are also non-innocents by induction. Killings are religiously OK``.

Re:sameerJB#91
Sameer, I am also completely fed up with this Jinnah, Gandhi, ONT, TNT nonsense. We need some new ideas in the subcontinent. The 1Billion plus population should be able to figure out a reasonable way to coexist. Here are my criteria for a better future -
1. Completely give up the objective of redrawing maps. That will never happen when two sides have nukes
2. Completely give up on transfer of people. The last time we did this, it resulted in a holocaust
3. Focus like a laser beam on economic relations. Indo-Pak synergy can exploit tremendous economic opportunities like energy pipelines, trade between central asia, south asia and southeast asia, attracting foreign investment, collaboration on IT etc.
4. Hammer out a reasonable solution on Kashmir. Given that Kashmiris have their own government and they control the land, surely we can work out some compromise, where everyone in India and Pakistan have equal access to Kashmir for tourism, pilgrimage etc.
5. Absolutely clamp down on all forms of religious extremism in both coutntries. All this jihad, Ram temple stuff should be a bad dream
6. Teach a balanced history in both countries
7. Free flow of information, books, cultural exchanges etc. Impose code of conduct on media to prevent demagouging of issues

nasah #83
I don`t think the HP election quite compensates for the `Gujarat anamoly`.

Firstly, HP doesnot have many Muslims, so the Gujarat/Modi-patented Hindutva hate machine had no `fuel`.

Secondly, `secularism` and `pluralism` have to be the universally accepted bottomline in every Indian election tussle, not something whose current `market` value fluctuates from election to election. This result is good, soon after Gujarat, but we are not there yet.

`` I think most of them don`t have very `happening` lives in any case so all they do every day, day in and day out, is write hate messages to each other. Maybe it makes them feel full-filled, satisfied, superior``


Hmm, I thought it was just time pass. I guess I am not getting my money`s worth as I don`t really feel fufilled. Satisfied maybe, but not fulfilled..or superior for that matter!!

:)

more carap from Mullah Urstruly

``The way the things are going, I see another Pakistan emerging from the womb of Hindustan. The division in 1947 was never fair......the unjust re-occupation of Kashmir, Junagadh, and Hyderabad by Hindus, right after the formula of partition was agreed upon, has spurred the wheel in a certain direction, and that direction is the emergence of another Pakistan. ``

These Mullahs who are sons of pigs act like pigs themselves..keep on eating and eating and fattening themselves on the blood of us Kafirs.

Both Kingdoms, Hyderabad and Jungadh, were Hindu majority areas. The Nizam of Hyderabad should forever be grateful to Hindus that his family was allowed to live in India after what the Razzakars did to Hindus.

The great Hypocrite Urstruly talks of Human rights, whereas these Mullahs conveniently define Non Muslims as Non Humans. He talks of the injustice of Kashmir while demanding the right to rule over Hindu majority areas in Junagadh and Hyderabad.

Plug your ears against the rhetoric of the Mullahs of Lashkar e Taiba and assorted Urstruly types and keep your swords sharp.

Waisey this is a good article. My previous post was aimed exclusively at Urstruly the Mullah who keeps harping on Junagadh and Hyderbad but studiously manages to avoid the basic question that how could Pakistan ask for Kashmir, Junagadh and Hyderabad and yet call itself principled?

I also agree with hamidm. No matter who started Two-Nation and One-Nation theories, they are not just irrelevant but bad too. They were bad because they overshadowed and supressed real issues as well as real nationalism of various subcontinent nations. One wanted to unite diverse nations and other wanted to breach each and every nation of subcontinent. It divided Bengali, Sindhi, UPite, Panjabi and other nations.

One nation theory was the creation of Christian missionaries who created Congress in ordwer to soften any possible resistance movement, just as the purpose of conversion to the religions of ruling elites in the history was to soften any possible resistance from masses. In the end, it remained true to its purpose and British packed their bags with minimum sacrifice of material or life plus continued sucking up to Liz II as commonwealth head.

Muslim League was also created for the same purpose to keep a check on Congress. The earliest proponents of separate Muslim nation, like Bala Lahori, were more anglophile than average folks.

Except for UP and Bengal, people were not enthusiastic about the hoopla of One and Two nations BS and were coerced into taking sides with the help of all gutterial(?) means.

French west Africa, British east and south Africa and Spanish south and central America did not go the subcontinent way to have one or two nations although Spanish speaking world had lot more in common than Panjabis and Bengalis.

Now nations like Balochis and Tamils have to contribute to the mother countries defenses when they are not threatened by anybody. Balochistan is more part of middle east and Tamil Nadu more of a southeast Asian nation. Islamabad and New Delhi should not be anything more than Strosssberg (sp?).

The freaks obsessed with limiting the discussion between Gandhi and Jinnah or Hindu and Muslims are either ignorant or hypocrite. That is not the peoples` history. It is history of the elite who have always exploited the situation to their advantage. No ML or Congress leader was killed during the partition riot. In fact they became rich overnight by grabbing the properties of departing people. The Chaudhries of Gujrat is the most well-known example of it. History repeats itself! The person responsible for the murder of more than 2000 Sikhs following assassination of Indira Gandhi is the Indian equivalent of the Chaudhry of Gujrat.

The Islamic fundamentalism suncontinent style, sangh parivar, BJP, JI, Jehadis, Modi, madrassahs are the legitimate children of the independent movement. Nehru, Jinnah and Gandhi were stupids, if they did not envision the extension of their super egotistical policies. They might have been ambitious idealist but knew nothing about the dimensions of ambitions. The periphery of their ambitions would turn out to be stronger than the core of their ambitions. That makes whole exercise irrational and emotional.

If Bengalis and UPite were so interested in independence, they should have fought for themselves without dragging rest of the apolitical poor people into it. Before the trio of sissys, Panjab tried for independence on its own under Ghadarites and failed. The sissy trio refused to help them. Now they presided over their fate on table to divide, separate electorate and communal rioting. The people who would pee in thier pants even thinking about fighting and hurting British were the bravest communal killers belonging to Congress and Muslim Laegue.

Saddam is hated because he has killed more of his own people than enemies. Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah presided over the killing of more people of subcontinent than killed in all the Indo-Pak wars and communal rioting in India and Pakistan since then.

They fought to inherit the history of Mughal empire and British Raj than anything else. They should not restricted their ambitions to where they belonged instead of trying to win the support of people who did not care and had no opinion about them.

Subcontinent would have been better off without Gandhi-Nehru-Jinnah, Congress and Muslim League.

re: jay #80

...come on, at least leave this match out of your obsession with jihad...winning and losing cricket matches is just a game, not real life...

...i thought it was a nice gesture that the two teams decided before the match to lineup, shake hands, and exchange official team ties...

Hor choopo TNT da ganna. Neither One nation, nor two nation; it is fractured nation because of the hangover from independence movement.

Violence breaks out after India`s World Cup win over Pakistan

Violence has erupted in India after the Indian cricket team defeated Pakistan in their World Cup match.

Several shops and vehicles have been burned and at least one person injured in Gujarat.

Rioting was reported in at least six neighbourhoods in Ahmadabad, the region`s largest city.

One man was sent to hospital after being stabbed, say police.

In Vadodara, police shot tear gas shells in three areas to disperse rioting mobs after three cars and a restaurant owned by a Muslim man were set alight.

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