The Tyson Who Didn't Fight Lewis

re: The land of the ``impure``
Chowk`s mullah would have us believe that India is a bad place and Pak is a paradise.
Let us see what others are saying about Pakistan:
1. A Sindhi Pakistani`s take on future of Pakistan:
``Should Paksitan be broken up?``
http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/res/breakup.html
Excerpts:
``Dissolution of Pakistan will largely bring things back into their natural national and ethnic boundaries. The Pushtun areas of Pakistan belong with the newly liberated Afghanistan. Kashmiris in India already enjoy numerous unique protections, e.g. against encroachment by migration from other parts of India. A unified Kashmir will be able to negotiate ways of maintaining its identity in India. Distinct ethnic regions in the Pakistani occupied part of the former kingdom of Kashmir, such as Baltistan and Gilgit, could enjoy greater autonomy.
A successor Pakistani Punjabi state would be far easier to contain. Bounded within plains that are easy to penetrate and police, stripped of 80% of the resources now consumed by its military, it would be far less menacing. Ironically, freed of its militaristic pretensions, it could enjoy greater economic growth and prosperity in the long run by embracing a more peaceful ideology.``
This is a Pakistani who is advocating the dissolution of Pakistan. Not even Dilip D`Souza or that other commie woman (of GOST fame) would write advocating dissolution of India.

2. The classic Jim Hoagland article. He says Paksitan is the most dangerous place on earth.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8422-2002Oct24¬Found=true

Excerpts from the above article:
``Pervez Musharraf`s Pakistan is a base from which nuclear technology, fundamentalist terrorism and life-destroying heroin are spread around the globe. American and French citizens and Christians of any nationality, including Pakistani, are indiscriminately slaughtered by fanatics as occasion arises. This nuclear-armed country is in part ungoverned, in part ungovernable.``

3. Pakistan`s contribution to world peace:
I need not elaborate on this. I have posted many links to the support of terrorism by the Paki elite and Army junta, including ISI. Pakistanis being implicated in terrorist plots the world over is a testimony to the peace-loving nature of Pakis.

4. Judicial system in Pak:
Lest we forget, let us revisit the horror that was perpetrated upon
Sarwar, a 29-year-old mother of two, was seeking a divorce from her violently abusive husband. She was killed in broad daylight by her kith and kin in her lawyer`s office.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/pakistan020805_honor.html
The question is: where are the killers of Sarwar today?

5. More honor killings in ``the land of pure``:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/pakistan020805_honorcases.html
Case studies: (i hope YLH, studying Law in Pak now, is taking notes)

a) June 22, 2002: A tribal council in the village of Mirwali in the eastern Pakistani province of Punjab rules that Mukhtaran Bibi, a 30-year-old woman from the impoverished Gujar tribe, be gang raped as punishment for her younger brother`s alleged affair with a woman of the landed Mastoi tribe. Witnesses say after she was publicly gang raped, Bibi was forced to walk through the village naked. Bibi`s brother has denied having an affair with the woman and has told a special anti-terrorist court that he was sodomized by some members of the Mastoi tribe and then accused of having the relationship as a cover-up.

b) May 16, 1999: Adbul Ghaffar and his wife Shabana Bibi are abducted at gunpoint from a sessions court in Punjab by a group of about 16 armed men, several of whom were reportedly identified as belonging to the woman`s family. Ghaffar and Bibi were allegedly married against their families` wishes and Bibi`s family had filed an abduction charge against Ghaffar. The couple was waiting inside the court to provide documents and statements that they were legally married when the abduction occurred, according to witnesses, in broad daylight in the presence of dozens of passively watching security officers. The couple has since been missing.

c) May 1999: In Britain, the Nottingham crown court sentences a Pakistani immigrant and her eldest son to life imprisonment for murdering the woman`s daughter, 19-year-old Rukhsana Naz, a pregnant mother of two children, in Derby in March 1998. Naz had reportedly ``dishonored`` her family, who lived in Britain, by having a ``sexual relationship outside marriage.`` Prosecutors told the court the brother strangled his 19-year-old sister while her mother held her down.

d) March 1999: Sixteen-year-old Jamilla (last name not known) was shot dead after a tribal council ruled that she had dishonored her tribe and passed a verdict calling for her death. According to reports, Jamilla had been repeatedly raped by a local official, but when her uncle filed a complaint with the police, the girl was arrested and turned over to her tribe who then put the matter up before a tribal council.

e) January 6, 1999: Ghazala (last name unknown) was reportedly set on fire by her brother in Joharabad, Punjab, on suspicion of having an affair with a neighbor. Local media reports said the charred and naked body lay unattended on the street for two hours as nobody wanted to get involved in the incident.

f) August 1998: Zarina and her alleged lover Suleiman were shot dead by her three brothers in a village in the northern Pakistani district of Larkana. In an interview with a local paper, Zarina`s mother was quoted as saying: ``There is no grief in honor, it was right to kill them. They [her sons] saw them together and they killed them.``

g) April 6, 1992: Samia Samar was shot dead in her lawyer`s office in Lahore. Samar was seeking a divorce from her violently abusive husband, but her family was against it. A month after fleeing her native Peshawar for Lahore, she agreed to meet with her mother at her lawyer`s office. Her mother arrived with an uncle and another male who pulled out a gun, put it to Samar`s head and shot her dead.

6. Status of women in Paksitan:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2002/pakistan04172002.html

7. Status of journalists in Pakistan:
A short answer: worse than a stray dog. Read the following for the long answer:
http://www.cpj.org/attacks01/asia01/pakistan.html

Excerpts:

``In March, Shakil Shaikh, chief reporter for the English-language daily The News, was abducted around midday by a group of five unidentified men riding in a jeep. His captors bound and blindfolded him, and then beat him for several hours, saying, ``You write too much. Now you will not write anymore.``

``Rajiv Chandrasekaran, a U.S. citizen who works for The Washington Post, reported from Pakistan for a couple of months without serious incident. But when his visa came up for renewal toward the end of November, authorities simply delayed processing it. When the visa expired, officials ordered him out of the country, citing unspecified ``security implications.`` Philip Bennett, the Post`s assistant managing editor for foreign news, protested the government`s action, calling it ``unexplained and unjustified.``

``On June 3, police in Abbottabad registered a case against Yousaf and two editors at the Urdu-language daily Mohasib, charging them with blasphemy

The charges arose from a May 29 Mohasib article titled ``The Beard and Islam,`` by Yousaf, a well-known poet and author. The article contested the view of certain Muslim clerics that a beardless man cannot be a good Muslim. The piece also criticized the exploitation of religious faith for personal gain.``

Chowk`s mullah has nothing much to rave and rant about. Pak lost the last vestige of dignity when it lost a game of cricket to its arch-rival, India. Now, all that the chowk mullahs can do is to point out to India`s shortcomings. Ponder for a moment. The mullah, even while criticising India in his post # 34, quotes home ministry sources in India. That surely testifies to India`s free press. Besides, he is worried about D`souza`s safety. Only in the last 2 years, 2 high profile journalists from Pakistan (one being Sehbai of SATribune fame) have migrated to US due to discrimination in Pak. Need i say more?
Sridhar

#79 Urstruly


Here is my ten point program for friendship with you. Once you agree to this we are going to be the best possible friends. See, I am such a generous person !!! I respect you and wish you well.

(1) You and your family will serve me hot meals at the following
times: 8AM, 1PM and 7PM. Sometimes I may need a snack at 4PM. All of this food must be prepared and served at your home.

(2) I may bring between 2-10 friends with me for these meals. No advance notice will be given.

(3) I would like to use your bank account for money. At the minimum there should $10,000 US or equivalent available AT ALL TIMES. I should be able to withdraw upto $25,000 per week.

(4) I will need my car cleaned on a weekly basis. This must be accomplished on a weekday as you will be busy with other choires on the weekend. Please arrange to have you or your family clean my car on a weekday evening between 7 and 10PM.

(5) I will require entertainment at your home on the weekend. Permissible items include light comedy, serious drama, skits, skecthes, etc. These must take place for at least 1 hour; every weekend there must be a minimum of two such events.

(6) I generate approximately 10Kgs laundry per week. You and your family (or their agents -- look how kind I am !) will be responsible for washing my laundry. Whites MUST be separated from others and bleached.

(7) My home must also be cleaned regularly. You and your family (or an agent appointed by you --- look how I am overflowing with affection and gentleness!!!) will be completely responsible for keeping my home cleaned. It MUST be cleaned at least once a week. The cleaning must include washing out all bathrooms, kitchen floor etc.

I look forward to your response. As soon as you agree, I will be ready to be your best friends.

#83 InYourFace

I have no problem with LK Advani`s good ideas. For example, Advani has said that there is a need to improve internal security in India thru better policing and intelligence. I think this is an excellent idea. I support it strongly.

Murli Manohar Joshi has proposed to upgrade most of the RECs to IIT level. I think this is an excellent idea. He also wants History books ``not to offend`` people. I think this is a bad idea.

I disagree with the BJP`s temple-obsession. I agree with their approach to opening up the economy.

What you are suggesting is that we should reject everything come from a source, because there are issues with that source. I would say this is not reasonable even with extremists like Bukhari or Thackeray. Even they make suggestions that can be helpful.

Instead, we need to have a centred view of things that are based on facts and logic. One that understands that all politicians behave a certain way, all journalists have certain biases etc. These are humans not gods!

Similarly with Dilip`s writings; he wrote an excellent article which I support. It does not mean that I support every article he ever wrote or will write. It is ridiculous to take such an approach and leads nowhere. Good ideas and insights arise from many sources.....

RSaxena:

``....in new york city, we have a dilip d`souza named al sharpton...the similarities between the two are uncanny... ``

Really??? Is there a physical similarity?? Where did you see this guy? I mean the author, not Sharpton. Big Al`s lost some weight by the way.

Dilip #64

Though you stood shy of uttering the ``K`` word in this context, yet your reply is acceptable to me. You are on right track.

By the way, I didn`t write my last post to win an argument from you. As my posts at tens of other boards at Chowk may suggest that I am impartial to the idea of an independent Kashmir or a Pakistani Kashmir. India may very well keep the Kashmir that it has. I just wish that it stops murder and rape of Kashmiris using the state aparatus. On more than one boards I have suggested that the ace to solve the Kashmir issue is up India`s sleeve. Some of the suggestions that I have made are:

1. India must declare absolute amnesty to all freedom fighter groups with absolutely no strings attached. Who doesn`t want to live in peace.? This action will help separate those who want peace from those who dont.

2. India must formally apologize to all Kashmiris for inflicting so much misery and pain to its people using state aparatus.

3. India must specifically apologize to all victims of rape by its army and law enforcement agencies.

4. India must establish rape crisis centers all around Kashmir to provide releif to the rape victims. Hindu social workers, preferably women, from mainland India must come to Kashmir to heel the emotional wounds that these unfortunate women have suffered.

5. India must establish special victim units to provide relief to the orphans and widows of those Kashmiris whose fathers and husbands died fighting for freedom of their homeland.

6. India must immediately abolish the draconian law such as Disturbed Area act of 1990, which gives absolute authority to Indian Army to murder or rape any one without impunity.

7. India must give Kashmir a special economic rebuild package, for the next ten years to cover all the loses that Kashmiris have suffered at the hand of state apparatus.

8. All the illegally established torture cells, interogation canters must immediately be shut down all acreoss Kashmir.

9. The death squads of Indian Army who hunt for freedom fighters, and set the villages abalze when can`t find them must be called off.

10. International Human rights orgs must be allowed into Kashmir to monitor all these actions.



This is my agenda regarding Kashmir. Now please tell me how it is going to make India weak? On the contrary it will make India strong. Economically, it is lot cheaper than keeping a 700K strong army practically sitting at every household in Kashmir. This is human agenda. Some parts of it can be acted upon by the consciencious citizens of mainland India, without government`s help. But as journalist and a human rights activist, your best course of action should be to spread awareness, I have great confidence in human conscience. People can change the world.

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re sobia

(this article is totally exposing saxena and troupe...for all their talk of tolerance, secularism blah blah blah, )

....secularism and tolerance work both ways dear...secularism does not mean a minority burns a train load of the majority and expects not to incite retaliatory violence and riots...you needn`t look farther than the LA riots to understand the inflammatory nature of minority-majority dynamics even in secular countries....

...of course i wouldn`t expect you living in pakistan to understand the concepts too well...

re pmishra

{I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written. }

...why?..how can one give credibility to a piece of writing knowing it comes from someone who has a one-track agenda and is more likely than not to be presenting a one-sided view?...that is like asking iraqis to believe a CNN report...

#78 by pmishra2 :

``I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written.``

It doesn`t matter because Dilip D`Souza has no credibility. Just like L. K.Advani doesn`t have any credibilty when he tries to moderate his views on hindutva (for eg. LKA aplogised for gujrath).

Majaority of Indians don`t care what the likes of dilip, farzana, praful bidwai, pankaj mishra or roy have to say.

I wish they learn to gain some trust ... because they do have a point to make and I glad that Indian newspapers are stillpublishing them.

Dilip,

You didnot answer my question in #14 in about your opinion about the CPM bandh earlier this week in Kerala? The genesis of the bandh was this. There was a demonstration, the demonstrators killed a policeman, were going to kill another, so the police opened fire and demonstrators got injured. So the CPM called a bandh to protest police action.

On bandh day, my family members had to take the risk of driving across town so that my nephew would not miss his 12th board exams. Have you ever been in a CPM bandh ? I have, on one occasion during a work assignment when we had to be ferried in a Indian Navy vehicle with armed escort so that we could attend to our jobs.

Some months ago there was a demonstration iin front of the secretariat demanding to free Madani, prime accused in the Coimbatore blasts case, I beleive. Apparently this demonstration was to remind UDF of its election promises in this connection. Well, many cars were destroyed in this demonstration and people were hurt.

Any comments on all this?

I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written. Doing so distorts the issues and allows us to get involved in very generic bashing of each other. We then end up wasting a lot of time while we bash ``left-wing p-secs`` or ``right-wing fascists``. Both are negative constructions that are useful only for bashing and for avoiding real discussion.

I think this is an excellent article. It is factual, to-the-point and reports things as they happened. We need to learn from it. The use of intimidation and violence by the VHP is something that must be challenged and confronted by the state and all people. The VHP did not invent mob violence (growing in Calcutta I saw plenty of mob violence ---- aided and abetted and rationalized by the CPI(M) and their lackeys) but they are certainly using it to further their agenda.

Dilip # 68, my point is this:- when an Indian politician goes to (say) UK, s/he answers questions about India. When a British politician comes to (say) India, we ask her/him questions mostly about India.

Take a close look at this phenomena.

We have, by the way, more Church of England worshippers in India than in UK, the only country with more is Ghana. So would Indian media question the British Government, on behalf these people, about, say, the increasing threat to Church of England in UK, and what the UK Government plans to do about it?

As desis, and here for once Indians & Pakistanis seem to ride together, our media still engages itself on ``suitable`` issues.

For example, on another thread somewhere, somebody has quoted PERC as ranking India as the 2nd most corrupt nation, and it is pride of place in the Indian Express. Fair enough, but do we carry out a cursory check on the background of PERC?

#68 by Dilip on March 12, 2003 11:22pm PT

I didn`t specifically answer your question only because I thought after reading my reply, it would be pretty obvious to you. However since you claim you didn`t, I would advise you to please read it once agin. And what about that article of yours on rediff on the Bombay riots of 1992-93 that I referred to in my post? I think it is pretty specific and not as meaningless as you`re trying to say it is. How come you conveniently chose to remain silent on that one?

//...the reason no country gives a rat`s ass about it is that in no country does a minority burn a train load of the majority and not expect things to get ugly...get it?... //

this article is totally exposing saxena and troupe...for all their talk of tolerance, secularism blah blah blah, what it really boils down to is that they can look at pakistan and other countries, point fingers and get all holier than thou but when it comes to their own country, they wear a blindfold and say things like why should anyone gives a rat`s ass...tsk...pathetic..maybe u guys should really stop worrying so much about pakistan and handle your own selves first..and don`t give me any talk about how much better you are and all that jazz...not interested.

Dilip:

In my book, the bad guys are: Modi, Thackerey, Tagodia, Arundhathi Roy, Praful Bidwai, Dilip D`Souza, Farzana Versey, Pakaj Mishra etc.

Don`t be lulled by false sense of moral superiority. All of you have no morals ... just agendas.

I used to read your columns regularly ... liked your idealism, your passion for justice. Over the time I realized that your ideals are not universal and your sense of justice is selective. Yet, people like you are needed in India. You tell the world about Modi types. Also, we need people like Rajiv Srinivasan (I am sure you know of him .... your colleague at Rediff) who expose the likes of you who ignore the conversions by seduction and bribery but target IDRF because they are educating some tribals, OR the likes of Farzana who ignores the fact some of our kids are shaking their heads while reciting words in some foreign languages, but get all bent out of shape if some other kids start reciting some slokas.

More ``freedom struggle`` thanks to our friends across the border. We need to understand that we are dealing with a culture that is unable to distinguish between mass murder of civilians and its own islamist fantasies. At some point we need to return the favor, preferably at the highest level of the mullahs (and their families) and the military (and their families). I think this time is starting to come closer.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2845945.stm

Kashmir bus blast kills four


The attack took place at a busy bus stop
Police in Indian-administered Kashmir say at least four people have been killed and 20 others injured in a bomb blast.