A Chance Remark

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The first thing I want to know is the meaning of word ``Harimau``. This name sounds like one of the tribal attrocities that you have mentioned in your article. Don`t worry, there are wierder Muslim names that exist eg. the name Kalbe Hussain, which means `the dog of hussain`. But the name that out classes all wierd names, even Harimau and Kalb, is the name of one Sri Lankan foreign minister of `70s. His name was Lamootri Padh. God! his mother must really hate him. I hated this name because my father and uncles used to call me `oye lamootri pad` when they used to feel very affectionate. I would through tantrums but that usually made them love me even more. In my younger brother`s word, I used to think that it was better to be a dog than a little one. But anywho..

The second thing I want to know is how many Hindus want to know my opinion on this write up. Please raise your hands, because I do not want to spend countless hours to type posts when no one really reads them....raise your hands.

Couple of thoughts after reading this article.

Can you have a religions withour rituals or for that matter without Icons?Even Islam which propounds to most anti ritual and anti Icon has to have them.

The author talks a lot about the word ``Hindu``. Well the word did not exist in India until Muslim Invaders came. To me Hindu should denote all religions or philosophical schools that started east of River Indus. In my mind all religions including Sikhism, Jainism, Budhism are Hindu. I believe the stress should be on the personal relationship with the deity and it is no ones business to criticize any rituals or practices if it does not hurt any one. One person`s ritual and belief can be another`s blasephemy or superstition. The great aspect of the Indic religions or Hinduism is that it can let ``everyone do their own thing``. When you start looking down upon someone`s rituals or beliefs, you have started fossilization of thought.

Very cool. I will read this again. South Indianor rather Tamil culture is a bit exotic to me as I have never had an opportunity to visit Tamil Nadu. Closest I came was reading Malgudi Days.

Interesting and informative article. Yantric raises the question of whether a religion can be free of rituals - my view is that there are three levels of comprehension of any religion:
Level 1: Belief. Belief in there being a Greater Consciousness underlying the universe.
Level 2: Ethics. Distinguishing between right and wrong (the concept of the Judgement Day in Islam), and living one`s life accordingly.
Level 3: Rituals. At this third level religion - any religion - becomes almost indistinguishable from superstition.

I also think it is true to say that in terms of Levels 1 and 2, all religions are essentially saying the same thing. At Level 3, of course each religion differs. Indeed, if there were no Level 3, there would be no distinction either between ``Brahmanic hinduism`` and ``nonBrahmanic or tamil`` as the article seems to indicate. Indeed, there would be essentially no difference between any sect of Islam either, or any branch of Christianity, or between any of the world`s relgions. So, get rid of rituals (aka superstitions) in all religions, and we all follow the same simple yet profound religion.

I am sure this conclusion will offend many ardent religious chauvinists on chowk, but there were are.

harimou,

my first reaction when I realised that it was YOU who wrote this article; I had my sword out to slash it to pieces....but as i read it, i --gasp--actually found it...ooooh this is very hard for me..um..ok..not bad; not bad at all....

just one thing...if your relationship with your pious muslim driver is decent--it doesnt mean you are not rss...advani has muslim friends & servants that he likes too, you know...,

atleast you have the balls, this time, to acknowlegde the crap that goes on in the name of the hindu religion...i respect that..

Good and informative indeed :)
Regards.

Urstruly # 2, please continue to provide us `orrible `indoos and others with your opinion, and please continue to accept the fact that the right to not agreeing with your opinion has nothing to do with whether one reads and / or reacts to them. Or sometimes even understands your point of view. The amount of research I have done on `indoos, Urstruly, is a tribute to some of your views, so please appreciate that some good comes out of your writing, thank you.

Harimau, on the article and to your knolwedge, these dark, short Tamil speaking folk, Hindoos, Muslims, Christiians et al, whether in India or Malaysia or Singapore or elsewhere, do they have political vote bank basis film stars or basis religious leaders?

tahmed32 # 6, there is a fourth phase, I think, which could probably be called ``sustainability``, where rituals start dominating. The older the religion, the more elaborate and essential the rituals. Which is why, again, we `orrible `indoos score.

...you thought chowk was the best place to put this article?...

Very good and informative article. Man, you write better than ylh.

What can I say about holy? There isn`t anythig holy because holiest of the holy itself is a medocre abstract thought that was resisted by most as long as they could sustain resistance.

Local/ native religions are like cultures or part of the culture. They do not have and do not need beliefs to go with them. At that level rituals are more like festivals like Tamil or Shinto rituals. Unfortunately the simlicity and open endedness of such practices also make them vulnerable to vultures - the missionaries, Muslim, Christina and Brahmin proselytizers and invaders.

Once a famous Zen master, Suzuki was asked about his belief and theology of his religion. His answer was that belief or theology has nothing to do with true religions. A true religioin can noever be a universal with fixed belief, theology and fixed rituals. Best religions are local religions based on local myhts woven into local language and local culture.

The meaning of religion originally was to understand the reason for being through connecting to ancestors and following rituals means to belong to your father and forefathers. The meaning of soul also meant having the same soul as your ancestors. What we have now are transnational packaged products with centuries of bloody marketing behind useless junk such as salvation, soul, theology and beliefs. Therefore participating or watching Bharatnatyam as religious ritual is better than having weird belief systems backed by equally weird theologies or killing chickens and sheeps or hyming other people`s myths as truths or kidnapping little girls in the name of religion even in places like Salt Lake City or James Jones and Quresh or mullahism.

Really enjoyed reading this article--very well written and a valuable source of information about life in South India. Ah, but how proud we are of being whatever.

Your driver sounds a lot like a typical Pakistani driver :)...do give him my salaams and tell him that most of the bad guys over there hold very similar views. The problem is that they dont get a chance to share those views, the bad guys are much more famous.

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I was first shocked to see the author`s name...

I tried to read this article but gave up after reading the first two sentences. All those hate-filled and filthy posts danced around my eyes. I felt as if I was being served a steak by a waiter who never washes his hands and who smelt of excrement. I felt like vomiting. That`s such a shame because it`s probably a good artcle which I will never read. I`m sure I`m not the only Chowkie who feels that way.

Good article, harimau..enjoyed reading it.

harimau

Good article. But you let your wellknown prejudices against certain communities pass off as truth here in your drawing a distinction between `Brahmin Hinduism` and `messy ritualism of others`. You make yourself a posterboy for Pakistanis, though, congratulations on the upgrade.

The words Hinduism and Hindu was not used by the ancient Brahmins.

The Bhagavad Gita 5:18 says for example ``Only those who see with equal vision the Ultimate Truth in a brahmana endowed with Vedic knowledge and humility, in a cow, in an elephant, in a dog and in a member of the dog-eating community are learned in genuine wisdom``

And Siva and Parvati donot belong only in temples, or only to some Hindus or only to Hindus, they and their essence belong to anyone who wants to own them. Its not for any Hindu to pronounce which manifestation of God belongs to him.

Secondly Brahmins were themselves leaders, performers, custodians of rituals and much criticised for this when they became too rigid, too elaborate or ostentatious or used these as instruments of wielding power.

By the Buddha too, for example. And among others Kabir, who complained a lot about the ritualism of Brahmins. He even complained about the ostentiousness of the akhaadas of sadhus attending the Kumbh Mela in his time, what do people seeking the God within want with noisy processions of grand chariots and firing cannons?

In later times, Swami Vivekananda when he visited approx 100 years ago called Kerala a `madhouse`, due to the weird restrictions of caste. For example only a Namboodiri Brahmin could carry a palm leaf umbrella! in a land of two monsoons, and he could excommunicate those who violated the closest distance specfied in feet that certain communities were allowed to approach certain other communities!

IMO, so your distinction between `neat and clean Hinduism of Brahmins` and the `messy ritualism of others` doesnot hold good.

Since Hinduism is widely called a `way of life` and I would also say `a marketplace of ideas/gods`, all one can do is keep persuading people to dispense with the wierder aspects of worship. Drawing a line of exclusion around God or sacredness doesnot make any sense in Hinduism.

Lastly its best to distinguish between religion and plain politics. Every time Mayawati is criticised for anything, whether corruption, birthday bash at state expense or poor governance, she says `this criticism is nothing but the `Manuwadis` doing what they have done throughout history aka trying to suppress my community`.

Harimau

The similarities between different religions never cease to amaze me.

greater the poverty and deprivation, greater the seach for God and spirituality. High religion factor in South Asia Vs religion being a non-issue in Sweden, Switzerland etc.

Brahinical Hinduism Vs Radical Islam

Normal liberal Hinduism Vs Sufism in Islam

Tribal cultures getting mixed up with faith - Saudi culture of 600 AD being taken as a part of Islam.

But some features in Islam make me very uncomfortable:

(a) Permission to keep slave girls and get legal children out of them.
(b) Woman`s testimony is half.
(c) Daughter gets half the property.
(d) Woman can not lead the prayer.
(e) If you divorce your wife, she can not marry you unless she goes through `Halala`. Halala means that she has to not only marry another person but has to consumate that marriage before she can marry you again.
(f) and some more.

A preacher will give you a logic to all the above but it is not convincing.