French Fries vs Freedom Fries

friend #64

You are trying to awaken somebody who is pretending to be asleep. He knows very well that he has no case based on the full and actual text of the resolutions. The best he can do is studiously ignore you and pretend that you don`t exist, as he does with most everyone who asks him inconvenient questions.

Romair #62
``Let me put your statement to the test: If tomorrow Bush started bombing India, stating that India has WMD (which it does), is in violation of UN resolutions (Kashmir resolutions), and has killed its minority communities (Gujrat, Kashmir), would you still trust Bush equally?..``

Romair, you have been asked several times- read text of UN resolutions on Kasmir. It is Pakistan that is in violation of these resolutions, not India.

If you feel otherwise quote the text of resolution that India has violated.

Romair,

Aw cmon...
you TOTALLY misunderstood me.
I was trying to tell you how MOIS thinks an average American Jew THINKS...I dont have the wisdom to tell you whether his logic is right or wrong..
I was being cynical...I cant stand it when you get on a ``moral`` pedestal:)

Here:
{{OK OK its Holy for Muslims too---but if all you pious monotheists believe that you are the children of the same God; you guys behave just as badly as us pagan idol worshippers! What the F*CK happened to sharing?! Oooh yes! its ALWAYS the fault of the Jew or the Jew-loving Christians! Muslims are NEVER to blame; is it?! }}

Thats for you ``washed`` muslim intellectuals who protest silently & in a ``dignfied`` manner in your armchair about the bs thats going on in the name of Islam. And let the record show that as a hindu I blame muslims for making some of the idiots in my religion militant . I tell you...these Hindutva idiots are acting like...gasp! ..muslims!!!:)


Ofcourse, from a MORAL standpoint, what Bush is doing is indefensible!---from the standpoint of EACH & EVERY RELIGION ON EARTH...including us indecent horrible kafir hindoos.

I believe the operating phrase in American pop philosophy is ``NO SH*T SHERLOCK!!!`` Believe me, many of the guys in the US, who are anti-war are Jews & Christians too.

So, yes, from one viewpoint I COMPLETELY agree with your post #62.
So, get off your moral pedestal & talk like a ``normal`` human being; not like the frikking Pope...or I`ll continue to tease you...After all, international policy is not shaped, let alone ``made`` on Chowk.

I dont completely agree with you re Serbia, though. ALL Serbians are NOT responsible for the genocide...just as ALL Pakistanis are NOT responsible for the massacres in East Pakistan....& ALL hindus are not responsible for Kashmiri muslims killed (or vice versa). So atleast we have to mourn for the innocent Serb civilians & the innocent Iraqi civilians killed in the first gulf war.

OK, having said that, here`s my cynicism...about religion...among other things. As much as Bush is a demon in the eyes of millions around the globe; he (& his cohorts) are trying to counter that by saying they are pious Christians & Jews too. All the GOOD in the 3 great monotheistic religions in the world is frequently abandoned by the adherents of the religions. Yup, you got an open book test & failed! Then you wonder why God sometimes doesnt hear you?! Our Hindu gods on the other hand are fallible:); ergo, hindus dont know any better:)

OBL HAS made it a ``Clash of the Civilisation``. He drew ``first blood``, acc to Americans (ofcourse they feel that their pro-Israel policy is right).

Here`s my personal philosophy...I`m not preaching to anyone---this is what I feel for my OWN self. And yes, its shaped by my ``super-ego``...ie the sum of my experiences of being born in a devoutly hindu brahmin family, with a VERY strong Gandhian political family (my grandpa, esp), went to school in a Jesuit school in Bombay & spending 20 yrs treating & learning about the human mind. The last 10 years, treating ``NORMAL`` American human beings in pvt practice.

God & Satan are part of the same ``force`` (ala George Lucas:)). There cant be an ``up`` without a ``down``. And sometimes what is ``bad`` to some living creatures, can be ``good`` to others. The same rule can be applied to civilisations. Dominant civilisations soar towards the sun in their sense of ``righteousness`` & then come crashing down. Who told you life was ``fair``.?!

Currently GWB thinks he is on a ``Crusade``. Here`s how he spins it --``its NOT a Christian Crusade...its a ``jehad`` of liberation of the ``poor, oppressed, unwashed, masses in Iraq`` ! See how sensitive the Bush administration was when an overenthusiastic Marine raised the US flag in Iraq! It was immediately pulled down. Just Propaganda?

But that ``spin`` is no different from what the British believed--that British law, justice, democracy, (freedom!!) & other civilised institutions was the hallmark legacy of the British Empire. Big powers get so sanctimonious that they actually start believing some of their bs!

Right now the criticism in America is muted because deep down inside Americans-jews & gentiles, black & white fear ``their way of life`` being altered by terrorists; more than they fear death. If the war in Iraq gets bogged down & the body bags start rolling in, I`ll assure you, Americans THEMSELVES will oppose the war.

So, in a way, you are right. The ``compassionate conservative`` is more CONSERVATIVE than COMPASSIONATE, right now. Thats how a giant behaves when some mystical idiot in a cave kicks him in the nuts.

The world is now getting divided into pro-US & anti-US factions. Which side is right? Thats where the big ``G`` word comes in...& you & I dont have the wisdom to judge; He does & He ultimately prevails. In the same vein OBL believes ( & will become a martyr for it) that he is right...

Yup, both these guys believe God is on THEIR side.

Incidentally, my wife believes that God is on the side of the hindus; cos as indecent as we are, at least we recognise that there are ``Goddesses``:)...some of them evil; like Kali, but Goddesses nonetheless...goddamnit!.

In the meantime, I`ll support my President & Hinduism, like a ``good lil confused hindu American`` & if he`s wrong I`ll scream at him like a good lil American:)...

Shankar #61: You are slowly starting to get confused, and are trying to find answers where no answers exist. Everything you state points to, ``two wrongs making a right.`` The Jews have suffered greatly, but does that give them right to make others suffer? They should be the most sensirtive towards others` sufferings. Arabs have agreed to share land with them. It is Israelis who are not even willing to give them the West Bank or tiny Gaza. Nor are the willing to make them the part of their country.

Mark my word, the Israelis are acting in a highly idiotic manner. It will hurt them in the long run. They have made lifetime enemies of neighboring Muslim and Christian Arabs who never harmed them. Infact Arab Muslims treated them far better than European Christians did. They are getting the US involved in wars, which will engulf the whole world. Sooner or later the Arabs will come out of the third world. At that time, they will look for revenge against Israel, for all the damage Israelis have directly or indirectly done to them. What will happen then?

Israel has a right to take out its anger against Germans. It has no right to take out its anger against Palestinians.

Could you tell me why Iraqis were not, ``liberated`` in 1991 by the USA, and why Saddam wasn`t removed. And why was the Kuwaiti al-Sabah put back into power. Based on this how can you state that you trust the Americans to bomb any country they want. Let me put your statement to the test: If tomorrow Bush started bombing India, stating that India has WMD (which it does), is in violation of UN resolutions (Kashmir resolutions), and has killed its minority communities (Gujrat, Kashmir), would you still trust Bush equally? Or do you have different standards for Indians and Iraqis.

``Romair-- first start demonstrating against DICTATORS like the Saudi royal family, Mushy, Mubarak, Khamenei etc etc.``

I belive it is Bush who supports Saudi monarchy and Mubarak. I have written against them, from day one. Infact, those two form the basis of my stand against US hypocricy.

Khamenei is not a dictator by any means. Please stop listening to US propoganda. He is infact a reformer. He is trying his level best to bring Iran back to a moderate middle path, after the extremism of the Shah and Ayatollah. He is democratically elected, as well. You are brainwashed if you think he is a dictator.

Musharraf was a dictator. But so was Nawaz and BB. He was a much better dictator than those two. Thus not only me, but all of Pakistan supported him when he came into power. If anything Pakistan has been far more open and moderate under him than under NS and BB. I supported him for three years, as did a majority of Pakistan. Now Pakistan is slowly returning to democracy. So what is wrong with having supported Musharraf. He has killed far less people than Bush or Sharon. Most of all he has killed far less people (zero) as compared to, ``democratic`` Vajpayee and Advani (two thousand in Gujrat, equal amount in Ayodhya, and tens of thousands in Kashmir).

The true dictators in the Muslim word are all the leaders supported by the USA. They are infact kings, which is worst than being a dictator: Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc.

It is no coincidence that the more democratic Muslim countries (malaysia, turkey, pakistan, iran) have all voted against the USA. While the only Muslim countries supporting the USA are the ones with monarchies.

There is a limit to how much of a benefit of a doubt one can give to someone. Even if the USA attacks a country, after having supported dictators, it is given the benefit of the doubt by its citizens. Have you ever asked yourself why the populations of 190 out of 192 countries in the world are opposing the USA? I am not the only person who distrusts Bush. Can you point me to any other issue (any one issue) where the populations of 190 out of 192 countries agree? If you cannot, then maybe your point of view in trusting Bush has some holes.

In regard to Serbia, the Serbs were carrying out a genocide of the Bosnians and Kosovars. They had to be stopped. I supported thier being stopped. I supported the first Gulf War against Iraq also, because Iraqi was the guilty party. If today US or UK took on Turkey to stop it from attacking Kurds, I would support the US also.

You need to stop looking at human rights as a Muslim/ Christian thing. It should be looked at as a wrong or right thing. I could care less what religon Iraqis or Americans are. If today Iraq attacked its Assyrian Christians, I would support the Christians. If Pakistani Muslims attacked a Bhuddhist Sri Lanka, I would support Sri Lanka.

I cannot speak out against every idiotic and evil US foreign policy action. However that does not mean I should not speak out against as many as I can.

Romair,

Nice to see you back! I was kinda missing our ``good natured`` debates:)

Firstly, my comments are based on what I percieve as ``blunt truth``...maybe thats not quite the right phrase I have in mind...

Maybe its cos in the 20+ yrs of seeing patients in emotional distress, I`ve heard a negative view about ``life`` in general, repeatedly--& I`ve become very cynical in my personal philosophy-- although, with enough optimism of the basic ``goodness`` of mankind --- that I believe, (slowly, painfully perhaps), the ``good`` side of human beings eventually prevails over the bad.

I was a psychiatrist from 82-90 in NY. If you are a non-Jewish doctor in a NY hospital, you are in a minority!:) Consequently, I`ve worked with a lot of Jews & seen a lot of Jews as patients. The fathers of Psychiatry (both biological & analytical) are Jewish. Jews, in general, dont have hang ups about going to psychiatrists:)

I`m aware that tahmed frowns upon people who ``type cast``; because prejudice is a human failing---not just a ``white man`s`` failing....I agree that its not right to typecast a whole community; especially if you dont understand them. Knowledge is the only ``pill`` for prejudice (dad, thankyou for teaching that to me).

But let me stick my neck out a tell you what the ``dominant discourse`` (politically & philosophically), of American Jews I`ve met...Is it a ``scientic`` opinion?--NO--its purely an anecdotal opinion.

Jews, in general, are extremely decent, honest, hard working, upwardly mobile people. They place a tremendous emphasis on education & actively participate & push their kids to be even more successful than their parents. They have a keen knowledge of money, accounting & business. They came penniless to America & now have risen to the upper echelons of success in this country. As far as I`m concerned, they`ve EARNED it.

It has been the success of Jews that have made them targets of prejudice & hate. I believe they have EARNED that success by sheer hard work, a strong faith in God & persevierence. I feel (& the Jews I`ve talked to have confirmed) that it was because of their success that the Christian majority in Europe persecuted them. That hatred was refined to such an extent that it culminated in the Holocaust.

I dont think non-Jews, esp Arabs, appreciate the psycholgical impact that the Holocaust has had on ALL Jews...no matter where in the World.They have this terrible sense of insecurity---that ``tomorrow`` they could be ``thrown out`` or persecuted AGAIN. If it happened in Germany, it can happen in America too. I`ve talked to Holocaust survivors---many of them & their descendants have felt that their faith in God was tested in a manner that NO OTHER people have been tested. In fact, many became atheists or agnostics & it gave rise to Existential philosophy among European intellectuals..

That OJ Simpson`s lawyer--I forget his name--said ``the Holocaust stands on its own...`` It caused some controversy (cos many non-Jews feel that life has been unfair to them too). I dont want to debate if thats RIGHT or not---but let me tell you what I have learnt from Jews: NOBODY, but NO other human group has been rounded up, crammed into cattle carts & sent into chambers of execution---men, women, babies, old, young---didnt matter---all that mattered was they belonged to the ``wrong`` religion. That is a crime against humanity that has NO EQUAL.

When an 80 yr old woman showed me a wrinkled forearm with a number tattoed on it & told me that her entire family was wiped out & she was kept alive as a whore for the SS guards; cos she was pretty---trust me; I cried like a baby in my office, while she looked at me with a vacant expression.

I dont have the WISDOM to debate whether other crimes against humanity (like slavery, ethnic cleansing, other genocides etc etc) are equally evil....I guess only a Spirit as wise as Allah can tackle such controversial issues.

But as far as a Jew is concerned, the Holocaust stands on its own. Deep down (psychologically), a gora who isnt ``anti-Semitic`` accepts it as true. Jews played a very prominant role in the Civil Rights & anti-Vietnam war movements in America. Believe it or not, many of the anti-Iraq war demonstrators in the US are Jews. So I dont they are advocating for ``special`` treatment.

However, Jews also realised that after WW2, nobody wanted them & many of the ``original European Israeli settlers`` were refugees going from country to country--only to be treated ``respectfully`` as ``unwanted``. So, psychologically, they consider the ``holy Land`` theirs---right, wrong or indifferent. With single-minded determination they have become a very powerful political group in the US--because to them its a question of SURVIVAL.

It didnt help when Israel was being formed, Arabs were OPENLY calling out for their destruction & fought several wars with that in mind. Jews have NEVER shed the Masada complex---in fact, it strenghtened after the Holocaust.

The Peace process, which started with so much enthusiasm, fizzled out. The problem is that Jews dont TRUST Arabs. In fact, they have some problems with the issue of trust with most gentiles. I personally feel that Arafat`s hands are dirty even when he`s taking the high road. Thats not to say I support Sharon--2 wrongs dont make a right. But Goddamnit! have you seen the size of Israel?! Jezuz. H. Christ, its a tiny sliver of land....compare that with the ``living space`` Allah has provided the generously fertile true believers!

OK OK its Holy for Muslims too---but if all you pious monotheists believe that you are the children of the same God; you guys behave just as badly as us pagan idol worshippers! What the F*CK happened to sharing?! Oooh yes! its ALWAYS the fault of the Jew or the Jew-loving Christians! Muslims are NEVER to blame; is it?!

THATS the ``dominant discourse`` Americans have been hearing on the ``Islamic street``. As a group, moderate muslims either dont vocally demonstrate against the bs thats going on in the Islamic world, or give silent approval to their unwashed screaming brothers.

But when ``innocent muslim civilians are being killed``; you wail FOUL! Hey, NOBODY can morally defend a notion of killing ``innocent civilians``!

All 3 religions have been given an open book test by God Himself & all of you frikking monotheists ( as a group) are failing miserably! Who says you cant mix politics with religion?! Whether you like it or not, it ALWAYS has been inseparable....esp now that ``MORALITY`` in politics is being questioned!

Personally, I think God Himself is DISGUSTED with all his disciples & has turned His back on the Holy Land. I mean; I can understand if us idol worshipping pagans & ``non-believers`` behave like Neanderthals---we werent ``taught`` any better!:)...but YOU--as a group; were!
OK OK--enough sermons!!:))

When God doesnt intervene; Might BECOMES Right!!

So, if the Islamic World becomes militant, the Judeo-Christian American world will become even MORE stubborn! & they WONT apologise!
Why do you think Bush et all, think ``shock & awe`` is ``justified``?!. George Bush prays to God just as much as pious muslims pray to Him!
Thats what terrorism does to the ``victim`` of terrtorism! The ``victim`s`` mind becomes more ``righteous``. As far as Bush is concerned, there is a very real threat that Saddam & Al-Qeeda will join hands in the future. If the rest of the world doesnt want to believe America; screw them!

What is the role you ``moderate muslim intellectuals`` played?
There wasnt a PEEP from you when the US bombed the heck out of Serbia!! Werent ``innocent`` Serbian civilians being killed?!
All Serbians should be held responsible for what Milosovic & his thugs did to muslims?
Now if THAT isnt hypocrisy, I dont know what is?!!

Yeah, the pious French & Germans tried to intervene peacefully in Yugoslavia! I dont have to tell you the MESS they made!
Hey, when it suits the Islamic world, call in the Marines!---you forgot to thank them; though!
But when the shoe is on the other foot; you shout MORALITY!!

I`m going out on a limb and stating that, like everybody else, I dont like the fact that Iraqi civilians are being killed. But I TRUST America, much much more than Saddam, or the French or the ``Islamic`` world! The Iraqi citizen is going to be unshackled by the decades of oppression of Saddam. Dont tell me those dancing & waving Iraqi civilians is all ``American-Zionist`` propaganda!

O yea ``true believers`` ask YOURSELVES---how many of you have stood up & fought against tyrants that rule the Islamic World?
You want to take a MORAL stand, Romair-- first start demonstrating against DICTATORS like the Saudi royal family, Mushy, Mubarak, Khamenei etc etc.

Clean your house FIRST...then you have a leg to stand on before you wail about morality. Look at it this way---if muslims spend more time waging a jihad against the tyranny of your OWN societies; then you can bring down all those pro-US puppets & make the Islamic world a better place to live in.

Until then, guys like you will opt to live in Canada...NOT Pakistan!

Then there are the rumours which prescribe the digging out of the
remains of the American soldiers from the French soil and bringing them back to US.

Sadly, petty nationalism is to be found behind the numerous token exhibitionist displays; draining of French wine down the streets, irresponsible binning of baguette, renaming of French fries to ``Freedom`` fries by two pinheads (according to the inimitable Jay Leno), and the above ludicrous suggestion about exhuming remains of said soldiers.

Patriotism is indeed the last refuge of the scoundrel! From Benazir to Nawaz and ``beyond``, and over two centuries, the pithy maxim has indeed rung true.

Romair #57
Your comments too are inaccurate and reflect your bias.
>> By what stretch of logic you are equating Vajpayee with OBL and Hitler? And remember that if you use any such logic, each and every Pakistani ruler will get included in that list much before Vajpayee.
>> Counteries taking high road - You say ``all three at great personal risk (especially Canada and Pakistan)`` Wow! Pakistan decided to abstain, not oppose. Abstaining is half agreement. Canada and India declared their opposition even before Bush even approached them. Mushy never said a clear no. Do you really think any statements by your prime minister really count before Mush?
>> Turks took a principled stance!! It appears now that it happened due to sympathy with fellow muslims and not due to any ``principled stance`` Turky`s government was planning to change prime minister so that this resolution could be reintroduced. As soon as war started Turky provided air space access to USA. And now Turky`s army has already entered Iraq to get its share of cake.

>> ``Hindu right in power in India, Christian right in power in the USA, Jewish right in power in Israel, Muslim right slowly coming into power in any Muslim democratic state paints a very rosy picture for the world``

Another wow!! So Muslim right is just about coming into power while all other right are already there. I think you missed Pakistan not due to any oversight but due to your subconcious feeling that Pakistan was never a democracy and hence its capitualing to Muslim right that made it Islamic republic and gave extra-ordinary rights to Muslims doesn`t count.

Romair, it would be great if you would just go to your own article and clarify some of your own arguments presented there.

Sadna,
China`s behavior in Tianamen`s Sq., towards Hong Kong and Taiwan is inexcusable. Ditto for Castro`s policies towards gays and his media clampdown. And you are right, these issues should be covered by the left with a great deal more responsibility and skepticism.

Shankar #48: Too many inaccuracies in your reply:

``I dont think the US needs to apologise for what it does.``

Using the same logic, do you also think that OBL and Hitler do not need to apologize for what they did? Do you think Vajpayee and Advani need to not apologize for what they did in Gujrat? If you are basing your view on one principle, i.e. ``strategic importance,`` then you should not only support USA, but OBL, Hitler and Vajpayee also.

``By taking over Iraq, it will ensure that it has access to oil for the next 100 yrs.``

Are you seriously suggesting the USA will stay in Iraq for 100 years? Which American will want to live in the Arab desert for that long, against a violent population that hates him? Would you be willing to move there? How will the US then control Iraq for 100 years? It will obviously have to install another Shah or King Fahd or Saddam or Taliban there, and attempt to remote control him. We all know how successful that has been. My guess is that the USA will not be able to/nor will it have the stamina to control Iraq for more than 2 to 3 years, or till the first major attack (terrorist or otherwise) against a US contingent, ala Beirut - whichever comes first. It is already losing interest in Afghanistan.

``Oh! & please dont tell me other countries have taken the ``high road``

Actually, most countries have taken the high road. Canada, India and Pakistan to name three. The US threatened and bribed all three. And all three, at great personal risk, (specially Pakistan and Canada) took the high road. Pakistan was ready to vote against the US in the UN. The Prime Minister, feudal as he maybe, openly stated this. That takes a lot of guts, doesn`t it? So much so, that the USA was scared away from presenting a second resolution in the Security Council, because it could not get 9 votes - Pakistan`s being the key one.

``After the obligatory murmurs about taking a ``principaled stand``, Turkey et all are slowly getting more ``cooperative``.``

Surprisingly, Turkey took a hell of a principled stance. I was quite impressed. Its parliament voted (go check the results) to not allow US troops, despite being offered billions. The US wants a democracy in Islamic countries, well the two more democratic ones (Pakistan and Turkey) have provided it with a democratic answer based on the wishes of its peoples, and perhaps against the wishes of its ruling elite - they have voted against the USA. Turkey now wants to get involved because it does not want an independent Kurdish state in Iraq - this is a very unprincipled stance. After the US-Iraq war, there maybe a Kurd-Turk war.

``When did the frikking French suddenly become Islam`s knight in shining armor?! ``

Let me enlighten you about when this happened. The London Economist took a survey of Arabs asking them which three non-Arab countries they hated the most and which they respected the most. Israel, USA, and UK were on the first list. And France and Iran on the second. France and Germany now have 10 million Muslims and only 700,000 Jews. The Muslim population growth rate there is three times that of other Frenchies. I believe the ratio of Muslims in France is close to the ratio of Blacks in the USA. This, and the fact, that the German and French gora populations have heavily protested against the war has made their govts. oppose it,. Schroder actually won his election specifically on this stance, and I think Chirac will win the next one due to his opposition to the war and the Spanish premier`s party may lose their next one, since 80% or more Spaniards oppose this war (though their leadership supports it) i.e. France may not be Islam`s knight, but their population has a conscious, and does see the USA`s actions as unlawful.

``. I`ve heard more than a few Americans---ESP the WW2 vets (who, incidentally are a powerful voting block) lament why their buddys died on the beaches of Normandy.``

Actually, according to the great American author Mr. Gore Vidal (one of my favorites) - a WWII vet himself - (I hope you are not offended if I take his word over your experiences in WWII), 90% of the living American WWII vets are against the current US attack on Iraq. Please read his interviews.

``The Christian right has joined hands with the Jews in an unprecedented way, after 9/11.``

This has been the Christian right`s stance for a while. Perhaps you have just discovered it. It is quite an ironic stance, considering the fact that the Christians in Palestine are on the side of the Muslim Palestinians. And that the Israelis do not distinguish between Palestinian Muslims and Christians, when they kill - priests are beaten up just like maulvis by Israelis. Edward Said and Hannan Ashrawi, two of the most eloquent Middle Easterners and Palestinian spokespersons are Chistian. Infact, if I was the head of Palestine, I would appoint all the Christian Palestinians to the top positions, since they are far more impressive than the Muslim Palestinians, in opposing the Israeli occupation.

Only an idiotic Christian right supports the killing of its own co-religionists by people of another religion? If the US Christian right, under the leadership of Bush, has become the keeper of the flag in the USA (much like the Jewish extremists in Israel under Sharon), then I am afraid the USA and the world is not in good hands.

Hindu right in power in India, Christian right in power in the USA, Jewish right in power in Israel, Muslim right slowly coming into power in any Muslim democratic state paints a very rosy picture for the world. Doens`t it? Are you suggesting the current conflict in Iraq, initiated by the USA, will only make these groups weaker?

``On the contrary, when countries are terrorised, it only makes them hardened & stubborn.``

You need to apply this forumula both ways. This is exactly the logic behind the attack on the WTC. Had the USA govt. not tried to screw around in other countries, the people in WTC would still be alive - not to mention the people in the countries that the US screwed around in. The more the USA attacks other countries, the more hardened their people will become also, and the more they will target Americans. If the USA commits terrorism against other countries, through uniformed personnel, then what would stop people in those countries terrorising the USA through non-uniformed personnel? Is that the kind of world you want to live in?

Iraq and Afghanistan were easy targets, since these two were decimated countries already, under the control of unpopular regimes. Things will really start getting interesting when the USA targets countries like Iran, which can defend themselves to some extent.

In essence, this battle is the USA and Israel vs. the views of the people of the rest of the world. I cannot think of any other war, which one country fought in such an isolated manner. If you do not believe me, perhaps you will believe your own countryman (twice) and what he has written in Newsweeek:

``In fact, while the United States has the backing of a dozen or so governments, it has the support of a majority of the people in only one country in the world, Israel. If that is not isolation, then the word has no meaning.`` (http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?0nw=n2d#BODY)

Somewhere in a cave, OBL must be smiling. Because he is getting exactly what he wants, i.e. a Clash of Civilisations. Luckily, European populations have shown a lot of far-sightedness, by siding with the Muslim civilization (in this case) and not with the USA.

If this cycle continues, then I would predict that within the next twenty years, someone will set of a nuclear explosion in New York.

More later.......

Veeresh:

I am in hotels, but in the sales side. Actually, I should say was, because I am making another transition soon. Moving to the ecommerce strategy side, so pretty disconnected from hotel operations per se.

Saminasha #54
The consistent use by leftists of `democracy` as reference point to criticise the US MORE and criticise out-and-out promoters of autocracy like Bin Laden LESS, is a bit inconsistent too I think. I don`t remember leftists protesting lack of democracy in the communist country of the erstwhile USSR, or China or Cuba for example.

China an unashamed autocracy run by its Communist party, does plenty of business with other autocracies such as in Burma, including helping arm dictators such as the North Korean one and Pakistani Zia Ul Haq with nuclear weapons, perhaps Iran too(the anti-nuclear cause keeps being espoused by leftists in spite of this). And the joke is that in China, Islamist-leaning activists are simply beheaded by the state and hey and behold there is nary a squeak from anyone, leftists, Islamists or Western promoters of `democracy`.

Obviously, I support alternate point of views being put out by left leaners or anyone else, but to me the `humanist` leftist polemic looks quite as self-contradictory as the evil capitalist polemic and the we-are-extremists-only-due-to-lack-of-democracy Islamist polemic.

uHHHHM Stuka, what are you, hotelier or PR type? Just curious . . .

Sadna,

I don`t get the impression that left press thinks that the autocracies in the Islamic world are legitimate. What they do tned to continually point out is that while the US consistantly talks about ``democracy`` they install, support and do business with regimes that in no way practice the kinds of democratic actions we do here. Jordan is a good example; dissent is dangerous for the average Jordanian citizen, let alone a Palestinian refugee dweller or a woman....and any honest lefty will acknowledge that...(however-there is also a school of Marxist thought that believes each region or country must evolve into democracy through trial and error...now this is an idea I am still evaluating.)

The other thing to remember is how the US`s interests in human rights and democracy increase manifold before we decide to invade a country to remove a tyrant we installed previously. Who cared about the status of Afghani women before we invaded, in terms of mainstream media?
Who was reporting about the sanction related deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children before Condi Rice came up with this ingenious rationale: ``We need to invade Iraq and remove Hussein so we can life sanctions`` . The left. Now the mainstream media reports these conditions of suffering to convince us that our coup d`etats will improve these conditions when it was our meddling that contributed greatly to them and installed the dictators that oppressed their own people!

Finally, I see very little among the left media that condones extremist Islamic govts-there is the idea that we have no right to impose democracy by the point of a missile-and that is a very different idea.

Samina #47
I don`t like what I have read of him, myself, because he comes down very hard on Islam, I believe. Its harder to dismiss the quotes from prominent leftists in this writeup though and his observation that prominent leftists donot raise a voice against Islamic extremism happens to corroborate my own impression.

I oppose the war due to the threat of potential grievous loss to Iraqis and their national interest and due to the increased threat of `unbridled` unilateralism from the US or any other country in future. At the same time, I don`t want to be blind to why others who oppose the war, do so.

Shankar:

I think Faisaluno has a pretty good grasp on the ground reality. Your post, while factual to some extent, does not really relate to what he is saying.

He says:

``u.s. by aligning so closely with regressive muslim governments, (a relationship arising out of cold war and oil) ``

cannot be denied. It is more useful in the short term for the US to have good relations with leaders who can deliver rather than democracies, though the latter is more fruitful.

``and by being so one sided on the issue of israel has become very unpopular in the muslim world (emotional impact of israel issue has been greatly minimized in u.s. media). ``

Here, I belive , one can keep on arguing about the chicken and egg question. During the 1956 Suez crisis, the US openly came out against UK, France and Israel when they attempted the invasion of Egypt. The US ``pro-Israel`` position came about because the Arab position right through the 60S was limited to the destruction of Israel.

By that logic, all of the west was pro Israel because nobody shared the Arab vision of throwing every Israeli man, woman and child into the sea. The wars of 1967 and 1973 were both designed to destroy the state of Israel, not to revert to any UN sanctioned boundaries.

In the US, the liberals tended to be pro Israel as compared to conservatives. It took the terrorism of the 70s and 80s to shift conservative opinion to a pro Israeli position. Ofcourse, Sept 11 was a turning point because now the christion right has started referring to the Occupied territories as Judea and Samarea, therefore not boding well for the Palestenians.

On a personal note, being a refugee is not a big deal. I am the son of refugees. So is Faisaluno himself. There are refugees in South Asia, The majority of the Israeli population in 1948 was not European, it was Jewish refugees from Arab lands in the middle east. The transfer of poulations is a reality. There cannot be a ``neutral`` US position if it involves changing the very nature of Israel.

BTW, the Indo-Pak thing, I will be very surprised if the levels of Hospitality last another 10 years.

Umm, last sentence of my previous post, I meant hostility, not hospitality..guess my profession caught up with me for a sec.