They Shoot Kashmiri Pandits, Dont They?

WHAT’S GOING ON?

Why is Farzana so privileged to have 3 articles published within the span of two weeks at Chowk? Although her anger seemed amusing in the beginning, it is now tiring, stale, and leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Articles that manage to offend so many people and an entire community cannot be that good or worth wasting time reading. Yet they get published at Chowk one after another, 7 since December 11th.

If Farzana believes she is speaking the truth, then truth can be told without an attitude so many people find offensive. Little Chowk Staff seems to realize that it is the Chowk readers who are more important than the writers.

If Chowk’s idea is to build bridges between Hindus and Muslims and Pakistan and India, then Farzana is not helping build them but is setting the bridges on fire, making sure whatever path open to cross the unyielding and fearsome river of misunderstandings, bigotry and animosity between the two sides gets destroyed. And yet she gets published, one after another. Go figure.

Ref soysauce #83

[ I found a lot of anguish in Shahabuddin`s interview.]

How about 1% of that anguish for the Pallans and Paraiyans of Tamil Nadu whose educational and economic opportunities you have shamelessly stolen?

[If i were told to sing vande mataram i`d refuse it flat out too.]

Is it because it is written in Sanskrit? Would you sing the Tamil version of it? There are actually two, both the work of Subramania Bharathi. Or would you prefer to sing a paean to Dravidastan? And take out black flag processions on Aug 15?

I found this on some website. Looks like a prescription for the Kashmir problem.

`Probably as a result of frontier warfare, Jacksonian opinion came to believe that it was the spirit of the enemy nation, rather than the fighting power of the enemy`s armies, that was the chief object of warfare. It was not enough to defeat a tribe in battle; one had to ``pacify`` the tribe, to convince it utterly and totally that resistance was and always would be destructive and futile. For this to happen, the war had to go to the enemy`s home: The villages had to be burned, food supplies destroyed, civilians killed. From the tiniest child to to the most revered of the elderly sages, everyone in the enemy nation had to understand that further armed resistence to the will of the American people, whatever that might be, was simply not an option.

The tribal leadership had to maintain an iron discipline over its hotheaded young men; half a dozen teenagers banding together on a raiding party would bring instant, terrible, and implacable retribution on the entire community, and perhaps endanger the very existence of the people.`

- Walter Russel Mead, ``Special Providence``

All those accusing Indian TV of propaganda:

At least the TV show Kashmeer, according to FartsAnna, is only showing fictional love between Hindus and Muslims and not the reality of events such as Muslims betraying their Hindu neighbors as reported in the killings of individual professionals.

Dear Kashmiri Pandits:

I dont think the Hindus, who are whining at this board, about the senseless murder of 24 human beings are as much concerned as the squished cockroach on their kitchen floor. It is not the first time, such incidents are becoming a routine. Yes, it is easier to blame it on neighboring country and consider yourself obsolved of any responsibility but question is why never such incidents are investigated and perpetrators brought to justice in an open court of law. Truly, it is a question for Kashmiri Pandits, to ask themselves; the question is whether there is any writ left of government of India in Kashmir any more? Why, not only your life and property, but also that of their Muslim Kashmiri neighbors is still not safe after 12 years of armed intervention; even when you have the protection of biggest security force in the world, who is literally policing each and every household in Kashmir. The answers to these questions are obvious:

1. The heavy handed tactics that Indian central government has employed in your land are not working-they never worked.

2. Army has failed to resolve anything. Because the issue never was militaristic in nature, it is, and it always has been, political.

So what is the best option that Kashmiri Pandits have? The first step is to admit and come to the terms with the fact that the Hindu central government has failed militarily and politically. The second step is to deal directly with the other party - you have dealt with one party for 12 years with no results, then why not give the other party a chance. The fact remains that you placed your bets on the horse that has always failed you; it has failed you for the past twelve years, it has failed you since 1947. As the saying goes in our language that the rider of two boats always sinks, now it is time that you must chose one of the two boats. You have tried one boat while half heartedly being in the other, but now a time has come to try the other boat with all the sincerity in your heart.

And not as a Paksitani but as a human being my heart goes out for your plight but I cannot do anything for you. Should I condemn my government? Pardon me, but I will not, because I beleive in justice and not words. Unfortunately, my friends, it is you who can ask for justice from your government, not me. You have to come to terms and accept the fact that it is your government that is denying you the justice. How can I ask your government to do the justice, when it arrests and tries only Muslims for the tragedy of Godhra. No one is ever arrested or charged with the genocide of 2000 Mulsims. No one in India today asks its govermnet, what happened to 80,000 Kashmiris who lost their lives because of INdian Army; No one in India today questions why women and children are being raped by their army and why government has given your army full immunity through the draconian laws like Disturbed Area Act of 1991. No one in India asks who wrote this death warrant for Kashmiris. They are all happy blaming all your misery on us, and getting on with their lives. After all it is not their homes which are set on fire, it is not their women who are raped, it is not them who have to face the firing squads. What do they care? What can I expect from such people? That they will listen my cries to preserve the human rights? No. It is you and only you who can change that. You must force your government to allow international observers to come to Kashmir and document the violation of human rights there. It is the bitter pill that you will have to swallow to save your future and children. It is absolute stupidity to expect to be safe when your army is raping women and children of your Muslim neighbors. How do you expect to save your own house when your army sets villages ablaze. My heart goes out for you but I do not have moral courage to ask those whose women and children are raped and their houses burnt down to not hurt you. I dont have the face to face them because I myself have failed to save their own women and children. I cannnot look into the eyes of a Kashmiri orphan and ask him to forgive you. It is you who have to do that.

#84 ali87

Re: Bande Matram, only the first stanza is sung and considered to be significant. It has no official standing in India/Bharat so I am not sure what the fuss here is all about.

rsaxena # 4 and # 63:

mr saxena:

you are exposed for what you are --- a bigot!

rgds,

t
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Here is the link:

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00001638


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Bigot (n.) n.

---a person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

---Synonyms: actor, attitudinizer, backslider, bigot, bluffer, casuist, charlatan, cheat, con man, crook, deceiver, decoy, dissembler, dissimulator, fake, faker, four-flusher, fraud, hook, humbug, imposter, impostor, informer, lip server, malingerer, masquerader, moutebank, pharisee, phony, playactor, poser, pretender, quack, sham, sharper, smoothie, sophist, stool pigeon, swindler, trickster, two-face, two-timer, whited sepulcher, wolf

I am pleased to see the response here to this ugly piece of hateful writing. A so-called article that blames everyone except the murderers! An article that lists ``reasons`` for murder (Jagmohan, Pandit cowardice, Pandits higher standard of living etc.). All of this from an individual who is always giving us bhashan about oppression of minorities and how bad Modi/Advani are for justifying/ignoring Gujarat killings !!!


Part of the challenge here is that certain ``enlightened left-wing`` indian commentators have a long history of double-standards when it comes to atrocity and violence. This has specially been the case with the Kashmiri Pandits. I still remember clearly in the 80`s that the CPI(M) took the official position that this was just natural justice to oppressors !! Why? because the Kashmiri pandits are traditionally educated (and educators) and so, of course, they should be murdered as part of progress !!!!!! Huh ? My twisted hindu fundamentalist brain could never absorb this type of garbage...

Thereafter, the vicious lie that somehow Jagmohan had disturbed the tranquility of the valley and ``convinced`` people to flee was used freely. Can you imagine entire groups of people abandoning their homes and leaving because some govt. official suggests that they should? Are Kashmiri pandits especially undeducated or just plain stupid???

Speaking from my conversations with relatives, it is clear that by mid-to-late 80`s, the tradition Kashmiri muslim urge to preserve their culture and autonomy was converted to crude islamism. A lot of this has to do with the oil wealth of the Gulf and the values exported from there. Once the trained mass murderers from Pakistan entered the picture all kaffirs were natural targets. This was no surprise: it justs repeats the official policy of the pakistani state.

stuka, ``A Hindu is killed for his religion alone.``

no kidding? all the deaths in the valley are due to religion, the whole issue is of religion...... where have you been?

throughout centuries, people have been killed due to religion.....
why were the Jews in Europe killed? why were Bosnian Muslims killed?

#80 by rsridhar on March 31, 2003 9:20am PT

While what you say is right. The advice to captiulate is wrong. Because the Sahghis problem is not Ayodhya but Muslims. They will raise another issue. So we should tackle the real issue the Sanghi view of the world.
or rarther the implemtation of that view.

as far as Vande Mataram is concenrned. If some one say that some thing hurts a persons sentiments it would be right to take that at face value not be judgemental about it.

Here is the text of Vandae Mataram in English. Do you expect muslims to sing this?

Mother, I bow to thee!
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
bright with orchard gleams,
Cool with thy winds of delight,
Dark fields waving Mother of might,
Mother free.
Glory of moonlight dreams,
Over thy branches and lordly streams,
Clad in thy blossoming trees,
Mother, giver of ease
Laughing low and sweet!
Mother I kiss thy feet,
Speaker sweet and low!
Mother, to thee I bow.


Who hath said thou art weak in thy lands
When the sword flesh out in the seventy million hands
And seventy million voices roar
Thy dreadful name from shore to shore?
With many strengths who art mighty and stored,
To thee I call Mother and Lord!
Though who savest, arise and save!
To her I cry who ever her foeman drove
Back from plain and Sea
And shook herself free.


Thou art wisdom, thou art law,
Thou art heart, our soul, our breath
Though art love divine, the awe
In our hearts that conquers death.
Thine the strength that nervs the arm,
Thine the beauty, thine the charm.
Every image made divine
In our temples is but thine.



Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen,
With her hands that strike and her
swords of sheen,
Thou art Lakshmi lotus-throned,
And the Muse a hundred-toned,
Pure and perfect without peer,
Mother lend thine ear,
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
Bright with thy orchard gleems,
Dark of hue O candid-fair

In thy soul, with jewelled hair
And thy glorious smile divine,
Lovilest of all earthly lands,
Showering wealth from well-stored hands!
Mother, mother mine!
Mother sweet, I bow to thee,
Mother great and free!
-------------

Not only is the imagery makes strong referneces to India as an Idol it also refences to Druga and Lakshmi.

Could you really expect a muslim to sing ``To thee I call Mother and Lord! ``?

Most hindus neither understand nor appreciate what it means to be a mulsim. They expect us to be just another form of Hindu only praying another god but accepting other Idols when we come across them.
Even educated and informed people propogate this false expectations.

#56 Sridhar
It`s awfully cheeky of you to say what others should choose or not to choose. I found a lot of anguish in Shahabuddin`s interview. If i were told to sing vande mataram i`d refuse it flat out too. It would not be because i`m belligerent but because the person forcing me to do it is. Same with the masjid, etc.
Frankly, the secular hindus telling the muslims to give up claims to the masjid in exchange for basic necessities that they`re entitled to or in order to counter the extremist hindus comes across as a good cop-bad cop routine. Rapproachement has to be based on give and take. What are the hindus willing to give in return for the masjid? A promise that they would not insist on a uniform civil code or something equally weighty?

“I watched Zoya as she tried to get Kinshuk to confess his love for her. Over the telephone line, she whispered, “I…I….”. He smiled at the other end, aware of the people in the room but managed to stutter, “Me too….”

Individual love stories about Hindus and Muslims are completely irrelevant to the reality of Kashmir. So are TV shows.




“deaths in Kashmir were deaths in Kashmir by militant outfits; no one made an issue of it being a Muslim or a Hindu death. I read a report where someone making a film on Pandits is being lauded as opposed to the “Islamist Bollywood film-makers” who glorify terrorists. “

There is a reason. In the early days of the insurgency, the terrorists targeted those who represented the Indian state. Therefore HM Khera, GM of HMT and a Hindu was killed along with the VC of Kashmir Univ, a Muslim. Religion was not a factor, their position was. However, when 24 random villagers are killed simply because they are Hindu, then yes, the religion becomes an issue.

Can you tell me of any incident where Muslims were offloaded from a bus in Kashmir and killed simply because they are Muslims. No. But there are various examples of Hindus being killed like this. If religion is not a factor, what is? If a Muslim is killed by terrorists, it is because he or she is related to India in some way or form, be it having family in the security forces, or a member of the VDC. A Hindu is killed for his religion alone.



“Because they chose to leave. …..
Mr. Jagmohan, now a BJP MP, encouraged the Pandits to leave the Valley when he became governor of the state for the second time. Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah has confirmed this. Mr. Jagmohan gave the Pandits air tickets, provided them with transport and arranged financial and other help to ensure their journey to Jammu.”

This is absolute nonsense. How many tickets have you been offered to go to Pakistan or Afghanistan? Have you left? You seriously think people leave their homes and jobs simply because they are offered transportation? Yes, Jagmohan arranged transportation, but to call that encouragement is a bloody strecth of the imagination. The Pandits were targeted in urban areas like Srinagar and Pahalgam and Sopore. I had friends who fled because their families received death threats. Their own Muslim neighbors identified them to terrorists groups. So, yes, they left because they were a minority and like the Gujarati Muslims who had to move to camps because their own neighbors would have killed them, the Kashmiri Hindus didn’t have a choice either.


“The Pandits feel that Article 370 should be abrogated because:
1). It prevents outsiders from buying property in the State, which further increases the Muslim hold. I don’t see the logic of this. They, who had homes there, ran away, and they assume others would want to settle there? If the grouse is that Pakistan got non-Kashmiris to enter PoK, then Pakistan’s reasons are different. “

They, the Hindus, who ran away, did so because of their religion. They want the co-religionists to settle so that it becomes safe for them to return. What is so hard to understand about this?


“2). The semi-autonomy gives the Muslims an unfair advantage. Fact: Traditionally, the governor of J&K has always been a Hindu, as also the head of the police force, whose selection is passed by the Union home ministry. Semi-autonomy status to the Valley is mainly on paper, not in practice. Kashmir is not among the most prosperous States and whenever there is an opportunity the Centre leaps in to cash in on selective tragedies. So internal security of the State has now conveniently become the responsibility of the Centre. “

Fact: The Ladalhi Buddhist Assoc has long complained of victimizatiion by the Valley Muslim dominated administration. Fact: Except for Muslims of the valley, Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs all have demanded an abrogation of Article 370.


“Does he even know what he is saying? I can understand him talking about Kashmir “gone”, but the other States, the Capital of the country?”

Basically you are trying to say that Kashmir is a Kashmiri problem. That is a falsehood. It is a Muslim problem. Not one Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist has ever joined the terrorists. The JKLF and Sahbir Shah may rant about their secularism but not one of them has ever had a non Muslim follower. All Non Muslim communities of Jammu and Kashmir want integration to India. It is only the Muslims who have a problem.
I know this may sound politically incorrect but to deny the communal nature of the Kashmiri insurgency is to deny the truth.

“No Kashmiri Pandit has ever been arrested by government organisations, not even journalists for downloading research material on militant outfits, as Iftikhar Gilani was. “

No Kashmiri Pandit has ever demanded secession from the Republic of India, unlike Iftikhar’s esteemed father in law, the Head of the Jammat e Islami who has publicly said that he is Pakistani. For that alone he should be tried for treason or deported.


“One often hears about the ‘whining’ of the Indian Muslims. But after the Bombay riots, they did not run away; “

Umm, yes they did. There was large scale migration from Hindu areas to Muslim areas and vice versa. In times of religious or coommunal disturbances, people tend to move to the safety their own type provide. Why is that so hard for you to understand? In Gujarat, the complaint that HR Groups have is that the Muslims are still living camps. Are you saying that is incorrect? How does it matter if the camps are in the same city or another one.

“Mirwaiz Omar Farooq has publicly stated that he takes “moral responsibility” for the Nadimarg incident, as under all circumstances the minorities in Kashmir must be protected. Other local groups, including militants, and the CM have all expressed similar views, which ought to send out positive signals to the Pandits. “

I see. Maybe the Muslims of Mumbai and Gujarat should take comfort from similar platitudes offered by the Congress party or leftists. What use is the sanctimonious crap dished out by the terrorists when the specific targetting of Hindus continues.

And the piece de resistance..

“Panun Kashmir’ is a dangerous concept until such time the fate of the Valley is decided, and it never will be. “

The fate of the valley was decided in 1948 after Kashmir acceded to India. It is the fate of the valley Muslims that has not been decided and the decision lies in their own hands. They can choose to live as citizens of India or they can go to whichever Muslim country will take them. The choice is theirs, not ours to make for them.

Ras

``May the bas_ _rds that murdered the Pandits burn in hell.

And the same goes for the murderers in Gujrat. ``


Thank you. Second both statements. Really appreciate it.

ahmadzai #73
``If any source says that they are Pakistan based terrorists then its crap, because to each and every constructive suggestion by Pakistan, India has said no. ``

What you are saying is,
if India says yes to Pakistan == possibility that Pakistani terrorists killed Indians
if India says no to Pakistan == no possiblity that Pakistani terrorists who killed Indians


You too, need to use your faculty of reasoning and see like the rest of the world that the above is a self-selfserving argument. Pakistan demands to be judge, jury executioner when its the accused in the deaths of Indians. India doesnot take this preposterous demand seriously, and I don`t see any international bodies taking it seriously either.

re:#58 by ali87
Syed Shahabuddin has his heart in the right place. He feels that muslims in India have been given a raw deal. He is right. But then, this raw deal is not due to the evil mindedness of Hindus (because there are millions of Hindus who have been equally betrayed) but due to a system that exploits the weak. It was not meant to be so but it has turned out to be so. I had argued in the past that the best anti-dote is gradual empowerment of the weaker sections and minorities thr` the ballot. I already see that happening as Dalits are getting empowered in some states. It is a matter of time muslims in India will get their due share of empowerment. They have to ally with the right forces and not get carried away by emotional and relgious rhetoric of some dubious politicians and religious elements.
Syed Shahabuddin is wrong when he makes this a Hindu Vs muslim issue. It is not so. It is secularism versus fundamentalism. Once he changes his emphasis, he will realise he is not alone. He says no one can force him to sing vande-mataram. Why does he feel that way? Even if a muslim forces me to sing ``Sare jahan se achha``, i will sing it. Both vande mataram and `sare jahan se` are patriotic songs. One is in sanskrit (most hindus do not know the full song or its meaning), the other is in Urdu. These songs are by no means communal. We make it so. All these are stupid arguments. They reflect a kind of paranoia muslims are suffering from. BJP and hindutva elements only exploit this. I am only surprised that educated men like SS have not risen above such feelings.
Sridhar

re: #62 by ali87
``Thus a Rogue party wanted to exploit this situation knowing very well it could be turned in to a very emotional issue since morals and logic give no option but to keep the status quo to the people manning the instutions. The threatend these with disorder and took law in their hands and on basis of which they were able to come to power by causing many to retreat from the well advised position.``
This is exactly what BJP and sangh parivar are doing. They are exploiting a very emotional issue. Why do you think they want the temple to be built on the same site as the Masjid? Surely, nobody, not even the shahi imam of Delhi, will have any objection if hindus were to build a temple some other place. By saying that the temple needs to be built at the exact spot where a masjid is, the BJP and Sangh have succeeded in communalising the issue and gaining from this politically. How much BJP has benefitted can be gauged from the fact that it used to have only 2 seats in the parliament in the 80s. Today, it is in power but it still needs support of some regional parties and is sticking to a secular agenda (at least trying hard; in states run by BJP, it is a different story). Tomorrow, it will come to power on its own merit without support. What will happen to secularism then is anyone`s guess.
Muslims and other minorities in India need to understand the forces at work. These forces did not gain ascendance in a single day but it took them years to reach where they are today. They were present even when Gandhiji was killed but they were hiding and working silently. Today, they work openly and have nothing to fear. These forces will ultimately consume the entire country. They need to be stopped.

Secular hindus are fighting a battle of their own. Gujarat came as a shock. Hindutva elements celebrated. They thought they are unstoppable now. Then came the defeat in Himachal Pradesh. They are not sure anymore. The best punishment you can give them is thr` the ballot. Meanwhile, BJP does not have the courage to force its hands on the temple issue and has accepted the HC verdict of digging the place. The issue is being settled in a legal fashion but it is sad that the muslims in India have lost an opportunity to gain politically and morally by accomodating on the issue.
Sridhar