They Shoot Kashmiri Pandits, Dont They?

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PS:
Re ali78
Forgot to mention, I recently saw a book of bhajans which had been ordered from a wellknown Hindu religious publisher. All the famous bhakti poets` bhajans were included and approx the last 1/4-1/3 of the book had poetry about Krishna written by MUSLIM poets over the last many hundred years.

#213 Farzana
//...Sometimes, as in my detailed post to mohar11, I think it is a wasted effort. Because the view about what I am is too entrenched...//

I missed that post - couldn`t keep up with all the posts flying fast thru this board. But now that you mentioned it - I went back and checked it out. I hope to reply to that post before this board goes out of circulation.

Just to clarify - I have no fixed view about ``what you are``. To me it doesn`t matter. I think such accusations are pre-emptive and should be kept in check, because if we all start throwing such accusations at each other then there could be no interactions in chowk at all .

I am just responding to your opinions as expressed in your articles published here. My responses could be as direct and forceful as your ariticles are, which may comeback to you as some kind of ``entrenched`` notions. They are not.

[#194 by harimau on April 2, 2003 4:18pm PT
Are you sure? It may be closer the second `l` than the third `l` of Tamil. ]

Since I do not know all `l` Tamil has, I cannot answer your question. But Gujarati has 2 l`s. Hindi has only 1. The second `l` of Gujarati has pronunciation close to zh of Tamil as in Tamizh or Kazhagam or Annbazhagan (Malayali name).

May be you should send to the audio section of Chowk a sample of Tamil utterance(s) giving examples of three l`s. But probably (like Koreans) I will not be able to distinguish between all Tamil l`s.

Since (for now) our communication is restricted to text only I can just give more examples of the Gujarati -zh-:

You must have heard Hindi movie song: Jyoti Kalash Chhalake... (singer: Lata). In Hindi -zh- is missing but in Gujarati Kalash would be written/spoken as: Kazhash. Gujarati word for accusation is Aazh. Gujarati word for Kaal (time, or nemesis) is Kaazh. For example: Shaishavakaazh means childhood. Of course this word is sankritised, more usually we say Baazhapan for childhood. Shankar Bholenath in Guajarati will be said as: Shankar Bhozhenath. Gujarati word Bhozho (hindi: Bhola) means ``simple guy``.

In the alphabetic sequence -zh- is written along with four ``special consonants``: Ha, Zha, Ksha, Jna.

Gujarati alphabet:

Ka Kha Ga Gha N(g)
Cha Chha Ja Za (j)N
Ta Tha Da Dha (d)N (palateal series)
ta tha da dha Na (dental series)
Pa Pha Ba Bha Ma

Special consonants:

Ya Ra La Va
Sa Sha Shha
Ha Zha Ksha Jna

Unlike Hindi we do not have Jha (like in Mujhe Jine Do, movie title). Ditto ditto in marathi. Reason why Lata Mangeshkar and Marathis/Gujaratis sometimes mispronounce Jha as Za, is the fact that both Jha in Hindi and Za in Gujarati occupy same place. In hindi Za would be written as Ja with a dot under it to distinguish it from Ja.

Also Hindi has a variant of palateal Da which is written as regular palateal Da with a dot under it to distinguish it from palateal Da. The pronunciation is closer to Gujarati zh but more near to Da. Like in hindi Pakora (vegetable fritter, Bhajji of Marathi). In Pakora `ra` is this ``dotted`` palateal Da. This dotted Da could be considered as lazily spoken Da. The tongue is not pressed hard on palate producing a sound closer to Ra.

ali87,
I commend you for your perseverance.

#206 by harish_hyd on April 2, 2003 9:49pm PT

What rubbish!!

Banning cow slaughter is equal treatment. sing hindu songs is equal treatemnt, having the concept of Hindu Undivided family for tax breaks etc is equal treatment.

equality is letting each religion follow its basic tenets as far as personal law as this interfers with religious belif. we are not asking to implement Islamic law on others.

We are not saying that punish a muslim if he commits a crime as per Islamic law.

Why will christains complain on this issue the law that is being proposed is followed by the christians all over the world. Not that it is in their religon. They no longer know or care to follow what their religon calls for.

As for exemtion from singing Vande Mataram is concerned a national song should unite not divide. What kind of national song is it that its origins were in the hate filled Novel and in context of intense hate of mulsims. What national song is it that most people dont even understand and in a language which is not even spoken by 1 percent of the population of the country.


Why should singing hindu songs be called equality.

Stop talking rubbish.

I think that you loose your logic when you start discussing religon.

If hindus are turning to BJP because muslims refuse to subscribe to hindu religious practices then it is not the fault ofthe muslims. It is the short coming of hindus.

Imagine this is like commiting a crime and claminging victimhood.

dost-mittarji (#177):
Thank you for this note. And this is no “buzurgana” or patronising tone, but you will have to bear with a reply…
1.The purpose of writing for Chowk…there is no ‘plan’; very often the articles have already been published elsewhere in India. One writes primarily because one is responding to happenings around one. More than “influencing” people, which is a tough call, one hopes that the questions one throws up might set off a pattern of thinking – either to confirm or dispute.
2.My audience…to begin with, it is myself. Do I believe in what I say? The answer is yes. For the rest, it is anyone who reads. How they react has a lot to do with how they feel about the issue themselves. But, and you will agree with me here, there are times when ‘I’ become the issue. And in those cases, the real subject becomes incidental and the responses are cryptic one-liners about me.

To quote you. “I try to be analytical and unemotional about these
matters but even found myself moving my head horizontally more frequently than vertically when reading your article and vice versa when reading your interacts…”

I understand that religious and nationalistic issues are sensitive matters, and because I am sensitive to them my writings tend to be “emotional”. I have admitted that often enough, and also realised that it can work both ways – more understanding of one’s position or more dislike. I am afraid I cannot sit and calculate and write in a manner that might be palatable. But, don’t I make it a point to interact so that those who have genuine arguments know my position more clearly? The fact is that readers can air their views at any time.

Sometimes, as in my detailed post to mohar11, I think it is a wasted effort. Because the view about what I am is too entrenched. I think it is facile to believe that one can change one’s stand or “error in blaming the victims of a massacre”(which I had not done, since you cannot blame dead people and the way in which it has been interpreted) by just corresponding on the Board here.

I know this response too will not be what you expected, but I owed you one.

Regards,
Farzana

godot (#188):
Bad enough that your first post took me completely by surprise, you come up with another one. I am still reeling…what are you talking about?

[First, let me thank you for re-posting my post that was meant, although in a twisted way, as praise for you. For the lesser souls, it does happen quite often that those you like and trust can stab you in the back in an opportunistic moment to make themselves look good.]

This is a new definition of back-stabbing. You had not whispered that in my ear nor was it a personal communication; it is there on a public forum. Several of my interacts have been used by others to prove other points than what they were meant for. What I re-posted was not to make myself look good in the eyes of Chowkies, but to convey to you that you had at one time not felt the way you had expressed yourself here, and it was not so long ago. And no, I did not refer to your “invective” posts. You might regret it today, but you have sometimes come in to say a nice thing or two and not so nice things about the people you are worried about now.

[What about my diatribe? I do not write articles that attack people, their behavior seen from a biased pen, or a way of living. Interacting and posting as a piece of conversation is entirely different than writing an article for publication. I thought you knew that much. I was mistaken, yet again. And yet another stab in the back.]

I did not comment at all on your articles. You write primarily on literary matters and translate important works. Regarding attacking people etc., is one to keep quiet and play safe all the time? The “biased pen”, if you insist, is a personal response to events. And, just in case you are interested, the reaction to my pieces is uniformly the same irrespective of what I write on, including my non-political articles. And, why is this discussion of writer vs. interactor too a stab in your back? Don’t you think you took to liking me a bit too much??? Ok, this was not meant to be personal :)

[By “so many people and an entire community” I meant at Chowk, not entire India. And I thought you were smart! Mistaken again.]

No, I am not smart. Smart people sit back and watch the fun…even if you referred to the limited area of Chowk, what I said still holds: “There are a handful of Indians without real names and identities who rave and rant in the cyberworld, and they do not represent the whole community, just as I do not represent all Indians, or Indian Muslims, or women or several other things.”

[What makes you think you are any better than those who have twisted your name and address you in a despicable manner? One wonders who is at fault here. By keeping silent in response does not prove you are any better or even right. It is your articles that speak for you, and that, dear Farzana, is a fact. Quoting a letter from one unknown Indian who likes your writing does not prove anything. There are fifty Indians at Chowk who think of you on the contrary.]

I am not in competition with anyone here. I am perhaps among the few writers here who do not keep silent, even against the sage advice by friends to keep away. Yes, I have stopped interacting with certain individuals because I cannot respond to name-calling. It is a personal choice. As I said in another post, they do air their views, so the question of whether I am better or right does not arise. And I do know that my articles speak for me, but only about the topic. They are not all of me. The ‘unknown Indian’ is not unknown, but has chosen to stay away to get rid of negative thoughts. And he does not like my writing; he disagrees with quite a bit. And I am not sure there are 50 Indians who think to the contrary…but whatever the figure, I cannot arrange my life according to their whims.

[No, Farzana, there isn’t anyone as privileged as you at Chowk. It’s a great irony that your articles are despised by very those you seek to address, something Chowk Editors conveniently overlook in your case, one after another. Now, that’s privilege!]

You are aware that there are readers of Chowk articles who do not interact, aren’t you? Will it surprise you that I have had letters from people in respectable positions who have commented on my writings here, and they are Indian? That they have taken the trouble to get my email addy to do so? That some of the most revered Chowkies are my friends, whether they agree with me or not?

And having been in the profession for several years now, let me tell you something. The moment a forum (website/newspaper/magazine) decides to play into the hands of anyone, it loses its independence. Chowk also publishes anti-Pak articles, pro-India articles (I would insist mine are pro-India because as an Indian I do have the right and duty to probe what goes on in my country…I am not big enough to provide solutions). It is their prerogative. Have you ever wondered why not many ‘concerned’ Indians are there to interact on ‘balanced’ boards?

However, if you have a real grouse, you may address the issue to editors@chowk.com.

I think you have raised a disturbing point here, and I think it ought to be discussed further. To this end I am starting a thread on Chowk Unplugged ‘Off the wall discussions’ thread using your post as a valid starting point. If you have the time or inclination, I hope you interact. And should you wish to get in touch with me, my email addy is farzanavee@yahoo.com.

Best wishes,
Farzana

Various posts::


my my how I have ruffled the feathers.

I have read a few aritcles and seen a few interviews of Shahubddin. In that I did not find any thing to indicate anyhatred towards hindus. I do not know much about his other speeches etc.
However if it is any indication with people calling hindu hater I can assume that it wouldlt have been much that he has said.

As for the hypocircy of muslims It woluld be good if such accusations came from people who themselves did not practice it. So if you claim that you are better where is the proof??

Singing Vande mataram is a forward thought?? Yes now it is clear how muslims have to approach modernity.

As for Abdul Kalam being devout mulsim. He may be a good man, Brilliant scientist. But to call him a devout mulsim you have to test him by whether he follows (at least agrees) with the basic principles of Islam.
Islam is professed by the kalima which clearly points to the unity of the creator and in belif in his messenger thus his message. the important principle is the principle of the unity of the creator and belif that he alone is worthy of worship.
This first principle it self is voilated by Abdul Kalam he professes to belive in the creator but at the same time worships saraswati a photo of whom he keeps by his bed(widely reported inthe media).
It is also reported by his collleagues that there was nothing religious about him. A colleauge of his of 17 years told the press that he has never seen or heard of Abdul Kalam ever offering the namaz either during working hours or after hours. he said that in this 17 years he has never come across him fasting.

offering the Namaz and fasting are the next two of the 5 pillars of Islam.
Giving Zakat is the 4 th pillar. I do not know about this aspect of abdul kalam however he may be a generous person and charitable.
The fifth pillar of Islam is performance of Haj if the person can afford to do so and has the health to undertake the journey. Dr kalam is over 70 years age to the best of my knowledge he has not performed haj. Apart from these duties there are many duties expected out of a muslim I will not go into those. But these have to be followed for him to be called a devout muslim. A muslim he may be it certainly doesnt seem he is a practicing muslim much less a devout muslim.
I donnt know about justice Ismail. He may be a Islamic scholar. there aremay hindus, christians etc who study Islam. I do not know what his belifes are so I wont comment. Translatiing a hindu text, analayising it or even appreciating the contents which are similar in Islam there is nothing wrong in all this. But to interpret Islam with reference and suppourt of a hindu context seems to me that he is on dicey ground there. But all will depend onthe context in which he has done and what exactly he has done. As I dont have Info. I cant say much.

Sadna
If you find any suppourt for any misguided or silly practice of muslims many of which you and others have listed out in any of my posts let me know other wise please dont draw inferences where none are needed.

muslims have indeed may faults and are backward in may areas of theworld indeed may of the things they profess to be Islamic are not so. however I have not tried to defend their practices. I have only tired to point out that they are just as good or bad as the people of the religion you follow. you take instance of many such muslim countries. have you stopped to think that what about the only Hindu country Nepal. What of its poverty, Its people voting to go out of their hindu rajya and becoming the principal export. I could easily say that this is all the result of hinduism. Of the anarchy prevalent there. Similarly the it is wrong to say that the Sikh extremism was not supported by the Sikhs. I used to live in Delhi at that time had may sikh friends and neghibours. At best their views were ambivalent.

As for my bashing hindu religion. I do not do so. At least I try not to Initiate it. Uusally this is in response to a similar act by one of the hindus here. have a look at my posts if you see posts where I have initated this silly thing let me know.

On the other hand most hindus indulge in this here. Take any article and see how the argument starts. Agreed that there are a few muslims here who do bait hindus but by and large I can say most hindus start this muslim baiting. Just see the start of these chain of responses you will find similar case in most discussions.

Sridhar...
I have no problem if Abdul kalam cannot speak urdu. I admire his achivements, his vision for development. However he is not a devout mulsim. I was in chennai last month even the tamil speaking muslims call him Kalam Iyer, As for Rafiq Zakaria I have read his articles and some portions of his book But I dont agree with all of his analysis. He has a few good points to make but just because he is a Islamic scholar I do not have to take his take on every thing. He is doing a good job though in trying to provide some kind of leadership to muslims I however disagree with him on some of his conclusins and solutions.

As for who my hero is my favorite is Prophet Mohammed. Among people living (well known figures)I either I havent come across a presonality who I can say is my hero. Mahatir Mohammed is one person who seems to be doing the right things. But some of his actiosn are dubious specially his iron fist rule. But I havent studied him much so I cant say about it. There are a number of muslims who I admire in daily life. They ordianary people with their fallacies. But there is much I learn from them. There are a number of other people I admire who are not muslims.


As for me whining where did i do that. Looks like you could take that advice yourself. There are many muslims who are good who dont sing vande mataram, who are devout and try to follow all the edicts of Islam. I am yet to see you appreciate that.

Islam I will defend muslims are with their faults. but if you critizie them blindly for following Islam then you better do it from a better positon. if you yourself are guilty of what you call bad in muslims then what is the reason to point fingers. As you yourself keep harpiing that The BJP is is bad. Do we belive that the hindus who suppourt BJP are good. Then what is the BJP if not a suppourt group of Hindus. If Hindus are turnign against muslims then the responsiblity should be fixed squarely on their shouders for their actions. Why bring the muslims into It.

As for Imam Bukhari, he was totally unknown perrson outside old delhi. The media is the one which dubbed him as the voice of muslims. The congress and RSS dubbed his tirades as the voice of mulsims. Most mulsims even now would not have heard anything of him excpet what they read in the press. They do not follow him nor take up his suggestions. However there are some issues on which if they are correct they may agrree with his points. But to call him a leader of mulsims or their represantive is silly. even now excpet for the newspaper reading muslims no one would even know who he is.

#195 by m_souza on April 2, 2003 4:18pm PT
souza lets see you can pontificate about muslims but not the other way round. YOu can rant about how mulsims are terrorisig people around the world (mostly christians/westerners as per the evalangicals) but you can show sympthay for them but I cant talk of the sikhs killed.

I notice that instead of condemming the sikh roits you pointed out that the sikh terrorists and their backers were responsible for (what?) the roits in Delhi? What are you saying that you can kill your sikh brothers none of my business!!

#196 by harimau on April 2, 2003 4:52pm PT

sure there are may exceptions in sociteys, even in some communites in the north east similar tradation is followed.

Also on another point Lingayats of karnataka bury their dead. Bhramins of costal areas eat fish and some times other meat too. My mallu friends tell me that Beef eating is not taboo in kerala among hindus.(I dont know how far this is true)

some thing emerges out of these many responses is that sikh terrorists were not sikh, the had no religion, the hindu terrorists (what else would you call people who burn and kill thousands of innocents in a few days) are not responsible for their actions it is the fault of the muslims.

Another trend that emerges is that the hindus consistently try to put words in my mouth then go around vilifiying me.

#193 by m_souza on April 2, 2003 4:18pm PT
Souza is a intresting guy takes very little to get him wound up. He calls hindus sissies, in one post he says he doesnt mind using the word allah or kuda in another he says he wont use the words again. Did I ask you to use them I simply said that Allah and Kuda are names to call the creator. Since Hindus have no objections in using these words from a religous point of view since their religon accepts all routes they can use them if the want to. Not that I am asking them to.

As for calling a land mother land I dont think it can be called Idol worship I did not say. I talked about calling motherland the lord.
Such stubleties escape him.

in his next post
Sohani Dharti... so sohani means dark, so how this goe.. Sohana safar? my punjabi is rusty does this mean ``dark weather`` hardly romantic. Is the meaning not pleasent?
So what is wrong in calling a land as beautiful as woman? idolising means attribuiting godly powers to a Idol or person in the Islamic context.
bythat extention saying that you have a rose like complexion is Idolising!!! I some times wonder if people like you have even a basic knowlege of Islam.
as for Sanwariya it means the dark one. Reference is to Krishna. but if you extend this meaning then no one can be refered as the dark one. does it mean The western Ideal Tall Dark Handsome is hindu?

Sadna note im not taking the opportunity to discuss the virtues of the god who was suppossed to have a 1000 wives, and who dalliyed with many gopis including the much married Radha. You accept him as your god i have no problem with that.

sridhar:
``Why do the muslims need a seperate shariat court when no other community has it?``
I am not aware of shariat courts in India (they exist in Pakistan). Ordinary civil courts decide cases under Indian laws which, in case of muslims, means Muslim Personal Law.

sadna#187
``I have read a writeup or two by Syed Shahabuddin, who makes it clear in his writings that he shares with you a contempt for Hinduism.``
I have no problem with that. How can one believe Quran to be a literal truth and not have contempt for hinduism? But one ought to make a distinction between contempt for hinduism (or Islam, for that matter) and contempt for hindus (or muslims). Contempt for a religion or ideology is something intellectual, contempt for the practitioners of that religion, however, is hate of individuals and may even be prosecutable under the hate laws of many countries.

Roshan#183
I would give the same advice to Varsha Bhosle if I interacted with her.

Studebaker
You said,``.......,there is no Islam which justifies making Mosque over others property .It is basic knowledge every muslim should know that the money used to build house of prayer MUST pass much stricter criteria than that for Charity ,building orphanage ,musafir khana ,hospitals etc.etc. ``

Well, I suggest you visit Vishwanath Temple and adjoining mosque and then say that mosque is not built on demolished temple. It seems that Aurangzeb was so much in a hurry to build mosque over there that he let all those figures from the temple structure remain on the lower side.

This is only to correct your wrong statement. Otherwise I believe whatever happened a few centuries ago should be forgotten and we should n`t let history reapet itself.

Further to my post #174, I again invite Mr. Adnan_Rafiq to interact with me on the matters he highlighted in this post # 138.

If he choses to respond, it will be an honor for me to continue on he debate.

Studebaker
You said,``.......,there is no Islam which justifies making Mosque over others property .It is basic knowledge every muslim should know that the money used to build house of prayer MUST pass much stricter criteria than that for Charity ,building orphanage ,musafir khana ,hospitals etc.etc. ``

Well, I suggest you visit Vishwanath Temple and adjoining mosque and then say that mosque is not built on demolished temple. It seems that Aurangzeb was so much in a hurry to build mosque over there that he let all those figures from the temple structure remain on the lower side.

This is only to correct your wrong statement. Otherwise I believe whatever happened a few centuries ago should be forgotten and we should n`t let history reapet itself.

Re: various posts by ali87

If Indian Muslims want their own personal laws, the right to practise polygamy and exemption from singing Vande Mataram, then they`re only diluting the premise on which secularism and democracy operate, i.e., equal treatment for all religions and equality of all citizens before the law of the land. And yet, they ceaselssly whine about the demise of these very principles.

All Indians expect to be treated equally and since democracy is the guiding principle of the nation, Muslims must follow what everybody else does. Has anyone heard Indian Christians complain on this issue? This intrasigence is the reason why more and more Hindus turn towards the BJP, and the day might not be far off when the BJP lands up enough votes to form a government on its own. And then Muslims can expect to have their a**es whupped. That is why it is all the more important for them to be more accomodating.

You can`t have it both ways.