They Shoot Kashmiri Pandits, Dont They?

“{ those in Ayodhya continue to live there; those in Gujarat are staying put}”

Please do not trivialize the forced migration of Kashmiri Pandits with statements like this.

The pain of a forced migration is something I wish no one ever has to go through, and there is no worse way rubbing salt into wounds than blaming the victims for not having chosen otherwise.

The extreme violence Gujarat heaped largely upon Muslims was very unfortunate. And to whatever extent the state was silent or complicit in it is a shame for every right thinking Indian. However that does not mean that it would be fair to consider their situation same as that of Kashmiri Pandits. The reality is that the genocide of Hindus in Kashmir has gone on too systematically for too long to make staying back a reasonable option for most. Also, in making a similar comparison with the valley’s Sikhs, you also fail to consider that unlike the Kashmiri Pandits, they have (thankfully) not experienced the same scale of brutality at the hands of militants.

This article only confirms an extreme anti-Hindu bias of the author, and it is deeply disappointing that someone with such insensitivity and bias is one of those in-charge of managing the affairs of chowk.

dear farzana,
since you chose not to reply to a few points that i had raised i am assuming that the discussion on this article of yours is closed. what disheartened me though is that you have time to reply to visa queries on your new article but nothing to help us(me and fellow members like ali and studebaker) discover what we seek by interacting on chowk-the many faces of truth.

When any community is attacked there are two ways in which people`s sense of
security can be restored. One is if the government is able
to catch the attackers and the second is if people of other communities reach
out to the victimised group and reassure them. In the 90`s when the Pandits
were forced to leave Kashmir some (though maybe not all) believe that the
government actually encouraged them to leave. And I am not aware of
any attempts by Kashmiri Muslims to reach out to their Hindu brethren
(perhaps they too were scared). If the above is true, then the Pandits
probably felt they had no choice but to leave. Perhaps some brave souls like
the author might have stayed back but one can not expect too many to
risk their lives and those of their near and dear ones. Incidentally the author
is wrong when she says that the Gujarati Muslims did not migrate. Large numbers
did during the riots and many still have not returned to their original homes.
The reasons are the same: neither the govt nor the people at large has
reassured them
of their security.

I give below an article that shows how the militant threats to the Pandit
community could have been countered. But perhaps it would have worked in
villages only.

Raghu.


Indian Express, April 3, 2003

Muslims guard Pandits in this Valley village

Muzamil Jaleel* Balhama, April 2: * As
the sun sets, fear and the night chill creep back, hand in hand, to this
hamlet surrounded by almond orchards and vast dry paddy fields.

And the six Kashmiri Pandit families here have decided to stay put not
because of the administration?s pleas but because of their neighbours.

The unarmed Muslim villagers here have decided to become human shields
to protect them.


??All these years we stayed back only because of our faith in our
neighbours. This time, after Nadimarg, it was too scary. But then the
entire village turned up with the promise to guard us. Since then they
come to our houses every evening, sit with us, talk to us and make us
feel safe,?? said Jeevan Lal, who teaches at a local private school.
??We are sure if those killers decide to come for us, our neighbours
will sacrifice their lives to protect us,?? he said.

In the old Kashmiri brick-and-mud house, as Jeevan Lal spoke of his
faith in his neighbours, it was evident that there was nothing else for
these families to draw confidence from.

The government has provided three policemen to each family but, unlike
Nadimarg, there is no police post or sandbag bunker here. The policemen
come every evening and stay with the families.

??This is hardly any security. The policemen are here because the
government does not want to take the blame if another Nadimarg
happens,?? said Jeevan. ??The other day there was some firing nearby and
I saw these policemen shivering. They were so scared that they ran up to
my room.

?? In fact, the policemen had yet to arrive when this correspondent
knocked on Jeevan?s door. And before he could peep out of the window to
check, a group of his Muslim neighbours, sitting on the pavement
outside, had already questioned us.

??We have told them
that anybody who wants to harm them will have to go
over our dead bodies first,?? said one of the neighbours, Shoukat
Hussain. ??The entire village is vigilant. They are part of us. They
have lived with us for generations and stood by us in everything. Now it
is our turn to be there with them,?? he said.

Jeevan?s uncle, Girdhari Lal, recalled: ??One of our Muslim neighbours
had a heart attack after watching pictures of the Nadimarg massacre. We
are lucky that humanity is still well and alive in our village.??
Girdhari Lal is a teacher who is much revered in this rural belt, 15 km
from Srinagar, for having taught an entire generation.

??In the early 90s, I came across a militant commander. He was smoking,
and when he saw me, he quickly stubbed off his cigarette and came
running to me. He had been my student. We have contributed to this area
and our neighbours remember that and show respect,?? he said.

The families have one significant advantage. They don?t live in a
cluster; each house is sandwiched between Muslim houses. ??If anybody
knocks on our door, we know they will come running,?? said Girdhari Lal.

On the outskirts of the village is the temple of goddess Bala Devi ? the
village is named after her. As one steps inside, a smiling, 14-year-old
boy greets you and reveals in the process that the roots of Kashmir?s
traditional composite culture have survived 14 years of violence here.
Liyaqat Hussain Dar is the chowkidar of the temple. He has inherited his
job from his grandfather and takes pride in it. ??Nobody has ever told
me not to guard this temple,?? he says, ushering you in.




© 2003: Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd. All rights reserved
throughout the world.

stude,
they are already crafting a future elsewhere and i fear it may be too late but their as well as the kashmiri muslim`s future lies 9as does india`s) in retaining it`s composite culture...otherwise kashmir will be a fav ex for hindu right to quote and the failue of indian secularism a fav ex for organisations like jaish and lashkar

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#262 by riteshshah on April 7, 2003 7:19am PT

No problem at all Ritesh remember in India we all agree to be reasonably unreasonable.

Its only when we get unreasonably ureasonable that problems arise!

On another note, of the oft repeated comments by some westerners and some of their apologists who decribe any land which a white man or his present ally does not belong to as uncivilised.
Mere presence/absence of voilence in not a measure of civilisation. It is the response of people under assault is what shows the civilisational mettle of the land. I faith that in the years to come we will be able to remove this scourge of voilence in our land and will display our civilisational mettle in other areas, in other fields of of human endavor.

dear ali and studebaker,
thanks for responding...nobody has called me reasonable in years ...and stude, all i meant by the ticket thing is that it is hardly exaggerated-the jagmohan help-you can not expect a governor to reach out and help someone in remote`shopian` (for example)to leave and the city was constantly under curfew...in fact some muslim neighbours helped pandits get away because they had an ear on the propaganda in masjids and they wanted them to be safe...and jaan bacha ke bhagney ka credit to mat cheeno...most of us managed to do it on our own-no need to thank Jagmohan...as for gujrat remember chandra babu naidu made an offer to resettle them(and what wrong did he do...should chandra babu have been accused for being communal...wahtever his considerations, it should be seen as a good geture) but nobody wants to go...sometimes you have to and you shouldn`t grudge people who go away safely...i am sure you guys know what i mean...life is very precious...it must be saved at all costs...

re:#258 by Studebaker
Now, you are talking like a politician.
The answer to the 2 questions at the end of my post is a simple yes or no.
Sridhar

#124 by ali87 on April 1, 2003 1:49am PT
”Perhaps people who are still not sure about the origins of the song ie the context in which it was first written. “

here are some excerpts of one of the analysis on its context in the novel Anand Math...

`Our religion is gone, our caste is gone, our honour is gone. Can the Hindus preserve their Hinduism unless these drunken Nereys (a term of contempt for Muslims) are driven away?`... Mahendra, however, not convinced, expresses reluctance to join the rebellion. ………In another scene in the novel some people shouted `kill, kill the Nereys`. Others shouted `Bande Mataram` `Will the day come when we shall break mosques and build temples on their sites? 4

Ok, Ali. So, if the context of this song is a problem. The origins of the song are important, isn’t it? And one should not forget such things….

How did Islam originate in India? What are the origins of Islam? An alien religion? The bloody looters, invaders of a particular religion come and destroy its religious places and occupy it for the years to come.
So, if you can’t forget the origins of a simple patriotic song, then are you suggesting that Hindus should remember the atrocities of the Muslims and should remember the origins of muslims…and shun them…?
And not only hindus, but do you feel you yourself should not forget the origins of Islam in India that it was brought forcibly into your families?
But none of you even remotely wants to remember that you were Hindus once.

#253 by ali87 on April 5, 2003 7:03am PT
#250 by m_souza on April 4, 2003 11:40pm PT

”hmm the tides are turning dear did you have a dream? Or you read what you think? “

No…I think what I read and not teh other way round.

”I dont agree with hinduism that is obviously very clear because Im a muslim. That I dont respect or value quite a few tents of Hinduism is also obvious. To conclude that means that I hate hindus is foolish.”

Yeah…you are right….we all are different and have a right to be.
Like I may (should) not agree with Islam because I am a Hindu.
Just like you hear a funny story about some foolish people worshipping Nagma, you derive conclusions about the whole Hindu community, just because it suits you to do so…you make fun of it. Whereas these foolish people are not even some religious devouts, but Nagma devouts.

Similarly, looking at very devout Muslims throwing stones at Satan at Mecca/Medina and thus losing their lives in this process, I can form opinions about the whole community. You all believe in this ritual, don’t you? And you believe in Shaitan, but feel it is a sin worshipping a mother or a motherland.
Similarly, you think that anyone who believes to any other God but Allah, is a ‘kafir’, a non-believer. I don’t think like that. I think, God is omnipresent, in all humans, all things. He may have many names in various religions but He is One. So, for me, disrespecting Allah would be as much a sin, as would be disrespecting Bhagwan/Eeshwar. So, you do not think like I do.

You believe slaughtering a goat in the name of God pleases him. Well, I don’t believe it pleases God or that it is a sacrifice. I believe it is a ‘sin’ killing an innocent life made by God. I believe if I can’t give life to anyone, I don’t have a right to take it.
But I like the concept of charity in Islam. But such charity by Muslims should reach out to all humans and not just muslims.
I like the concept of ‘brotherhood’ in Islam. But I like the concept of Human-brotherhood’ and not just Muslim brotherhood’ or Hindu brotherhood.


”It would be better if you respond to what I say in my post and not assume too much. “

Like I said before, ‘go through your posts again’.


”For instance you have said that Im a devout muslim how do you know that have I mentioned that? “

You clearly mentioned that the likes of Rehman and President Kalam are …..bla bla…..a long post of yours it was… #162 by ali87 on April 1, 2003 5:44pm PT…and others too


”Muslims are required to respect thier mothers in fact respcting a mother and even obeying her even when she is wrong is advised, only cant call her lord or attribute godly traits to her. “

I can only think of this Hindi song in praise of mother:

‘Usko (Bhagwan ko) nahin dekha humne kabhi, par iski zaroorat kya hogee,
Aai Maa…Aai Maa teri soorat sey alag, Bhagwan ki soorat , kya hogeee, kya hogeee’

Would you say this is idol worship? Here..unlike many other songs, the writer used word Bhagwan in place of Allah..otherwise even Muslims would appreciate the emotions and comparison made.

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re: Who is a good muslim?

I was intrigued by what Ali said in his post # 214. I quote him:
``Islam is professed by the kalima which clearly points to the unity of the creator and in belif in his messenger thus his message. the important principle is the principle of the unity of the creator and belif that he alone is worthy of worship.``
So, let us see. Is Osama-bin-Laden a good muslim by above standards? He is a pious muslim, who seems to believe everything said in Qoran. The entire muslim world believes him to be a muslim with a cause. So, i guess he is a good muslim.
Is Osama-bin-Laden a good human being, then? He seems to cause killings of innocent people for a religious cause. He has no qualms over the fact that Qoran forbids killing of innocent people (all the people who died in the twin towers were innocent people belonging to all religions and many nationalities). He orders deaths of innocent people with the same impunity as he would order breakfast to be served. He was shown one time on TV in US to be a man who has given up comforts and living in a cave, sharing his food with other muslims and reciting Qoran regularly.
The big question then is: are good muslims also good human beings? Muslims may say OBL is a good human being also but the rest of the world will disagree. He does not fall in the same category as Gandhi or Dalai Lama or Nelson Mandela, all of who fought for a cause but in a peaceful manner. Dalai Lama is still fighting to liberate his people from occupation but he is doing it in a peaceful manner. His relgion interpretation does not allow him to tell his followers to go out and kill chinese because he does not think a just cause should be fought in an unjust manner. Nelson Mandela did not wreak vengence on the very people who subjugated him and his nation for centuries.
So, we come back to the question: Is a good muslim not a good human being? In case of OBL and many other jehadi muslims, it certainly is not the case. Saddam Hussein, i learnt the other day, is a declared atheist and hence not a muslim at all! Why is he being hailed a hero in the muslim world ?
Abdul Kalam may not be a good muslim from the standards set by the clergy. But then, are the clergy`s standards high enough? What can you say about the muslim clergy which hails OBL as a hero and will not condemn his dastardly acts but questions Kalam`s muslim credentials.
I think, there is an urgent need for reformation within the muslim community. There is a great disconnect between what the non-muslim world perceives as good and what the muslim world does.
A good muslim has to be good human being first. A good human being cannot be a person who kills innocent people and justifies the act on some religous beliefs. No Shankaracharya has hailed Modi as a great hindu.
If this change does not come from within the muslim community, it will be imposed from outside. USA today is rightly doing what it can to cut the jehadi roots of Saudi Arabia and other countries sponsoring and sustaining terrorism (terrorism as the non-muslim world understands it). Tragically, there seems to be no debate whatsoever among the muslim intellectuals about these issues.

My question to people like ali87 would be: Is OBL a good muslim? Is he a good human being? I bet, for most muslims, the answer is Yes to both questions.
Sridhar

dost-mittar #252

`` If one believes everything written in Quraan, one would have to think of Hinduism as a false religion and it is difficult to have respect for something false.``

True and its fine as long as this is a private opinion. Expressing this as a public figure is another matter. I wonder how many people would think it OK if George Bush said he had a problem with Islam because its a false religion and Christ is the only savior.

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#250 by m_souza on April 4, 2003 11:40pm PT

hmm the tides are turning dear did you have a dream? Or you read what you think?

I dont agree with hinduism that is obviously very clear because Im a muslim. That I dont respect or value quite a few tents of Hinduism is also obvious. To conclude that means that I hate hindus is foolish.

I also have not indicated that I do not like Diet coke, Prefer eating pan over taking a antacid, I dont like my eggs over cooked. I prefer my biryanis Subtuly spiced and absolutely hate it when they put tomato in it, I also get worked up when Indians start praising US and belittling India.

It would be better if you respond to what I say in my post and not assume too much.

For instance you have said that Im a devout muslim how do you know that have I mentioned that?

Muslims are required to respect thier mothers in fact respcting a mother and even obeying her even when she is wrong is advised, only cant call her lord or attribute godly traits to her.

I had made this distinction earlier. I think such kind of nucances miss you.

sadna:
Thanks. I do intend to write something about rail travel in India. I dont know if the Chowk editors will find it of general interest.
``I am not sure what your point is? Could you elaborate?``
There was no deeper meaning to what I said. If one believes everything written in Quraan, one would have to think of Hinduism as a false religion and it is difficult to have respect for something false. At the same time, the same person does not necessarily feel contempt for a person born into that belief system. That`s all I meant.

Hey Farzana, you didn`t write this letter to The Friday Times by any chance, did you?


Sir,

In reference to the letter “Secular India?” (TFT Mar 21-27), if Zenia’s Indian Muslim friends give her the impression that they are discriminated in India, than I suggest she takes up this matter with the Pakistan Government and see that her dear Indian friends get a visa to stay in Pakistan. There they can appreciate the warm treatment that Mohajirs (Indian Muslims) get in Pakistan.

Farzana Danish,

Mumbai.

Ref Studebaker #247

[Akhila Raman works as a software consultant in California, USA, and is a researcher on the Kashmir Conflict. References for above article and further writings can be found at: http://www.mindspring.com/~akhila_raman/]

Akhila Raman should stick to what she knows best... and that may not even be software!

The only reason Akhila Raman is even alive is because her ancestors escaped the depredations of various Muslim invaders. For those of you who think that the South was spared invasion or rule by Muslims, you need to know that Malik Ghafour reached Madurai in 1320 and plundered the Meenakshi temple and temprarily converted that into a mosque.

Anandarangam Pillay, who was Dubash to Dupleix, the French Governor of Pondicherry, maintained a diary that lists the depredations of the Muslim rulers of South India. In one instance, a brahmin was levied a land tax that he brahmin could not pay even after selling the land. His wife was abducted by the Muslim amaldar who told him that he could get his wife back when he paid the tax in full. Both the brahmin and his wife committed suicide.

The local male population was hanged, and the females were paraded naked through the streets. This is how they treated their subjects.

By the way, how did the Hindus pay the Muslims back? In 1507, Govinda Deekshitar, the Diwan to the King of Tanjore, granted 7 veli`s of land for the building of a mosque where the local Muslims may worship. For those of you who are not aware of South Indian history, Govinda Deekshitar was a brahmin and the King of Tanjore was a descendant of a brother of Shivaji who supposedly hated Muslims with a passion.

There is none stupider than a TamBram who is ignorant about history.

#245 by ali87 on April 4, 2003 12:53pm PT

``Dear souza me and my hindu friends prefer to assign the Indian ocean to people like you. ``

My response in post 248

``Dear souza me and my Hindu friends prefer to assign the Indian Ocean to people like you. ``

Oh..achchaaa!! so when the tides started turning against you, you have finally admitted that Hindus are your `friends` after all. How come?? None of your previous posts reflected even a small bit of respect for the religion of your Hindu friends.
You sounded like you hate Hindus and their religion (go through your posts again)..and your posts instigated me to retort back ....not vice-versa.

Anyway, I have more Hindu friends as well as Muslim Indian friends than you have. They will save me.
Plus I didn`t say I have any problem with Islam. I never ever had problem praying to Allah/Khuda or Bhagwan..whatever..they are all the same. There has to be one creator of this world.
But you have problems with Vande Matram and the mentioned Goddesses or this and that, so I suggested you to go to the neighborhood pure land (not a bad idea, wonder why you didn’t like it?).. a land devoted to Islam where you can practice your religion with full freedom and fervour.

But…read this post before you leave your country for neighbourhood…#246 by Paigham on April 4, 2003 2:37pm PT
And imagine what would happen to you once you go to Pakistan. Then make up your mind.

Also, thanks for telling us about the meaning of Vande Matram. I was not aware it is so beautiful.
Now sing with me “Oh Mother..I bow to thee”…..O sorry..I forgot you don’t bow before Mothers…I will try our esteemed President Abdul Kalam...as you said he is not as devout a Muslim as you are.

Let’s sing together.. hand in hand: “Saare jahan se achcha, Hindustan hamaaraa”. You can’t disagree with me on this now.

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#241 by riteshshah on April 4, 2003 6:11am PT

Rithesh I had quite a few friends in college from kashmir both pandits as well as muslims. It was sad that neither of them wished to return home as frequently as we did.

However they survived, finished their courses went their way.

I pray that you will be able to return to your home and things will be peaceful and all will be given dignity and hope.

I agree with your post.

#237 by m_souza on April 3, 2003 5:50pm PT

Dear souza me and my hindu friends prefer to assign the Indian ocean to people like you.

``Individual love stories about Hindus and Muslims are completely irrelevant to the reality of Kashmir. So are TV shows.]

No, they are not. And what I find heartening is the bridging of the communal divide``

What bridging of the communal divide? The New York Times carries a picture today of thousands of Kashmiri Mulsims at the funereal of the Hizbul leader killed by Indian forces.


You say:

``If religion were the issue, the terrorists would take care to see that Muslims in the State are protected; they are not.``

Ofcourse they are. Any time Muslims in general are killed by terrorists, it is because of some connection with the Indian state. Or it is the result of a grenade missing its target of security forces and killing innocent bystanders. Tell me one incident where a dozen Muslims are herded out and killed simply because they are Muslim.

Also, how can you deny that there is a religious color to the insurgency when the main militant groups are all Islamic. Lashkar, Al Badr etc are are Islamic. Even the Hizbul, the Kashmiri terrorist group is Islamic. The JKLF was decimated by the Hizbul in the early 90S.

`` Leaders of militant outfits who are killed happen to be Muslim.``

Obviously. After all, the leaders of all the militant outfits are Muslim. You just proved my point. If you are talking of Militant leaders killed by other militant leaders, it is only if they have become Ikhwani or they are discussing terms with the Indian government.


``I am really worried about this religious colour being given here. Is that why Mr. Vajpayee has said that he will not take a strong stand against the Iraq War because of the Kashmir issue, which has shocked even his NDA allies? ``

There is a religious color in the Kashmir conflict. Only the blind would deny that. I have no clue what Vaj[payee`s staement on Iraq was, but the Kashmir conflict and the religious dimension to it predates Vajpayee and the BJP.

``It is hard to understand why anyone would want to enter that state if the Pandits themselves did not want to stay there, or could not. ``

The Pandits could not or did not want to stay there because they were a minority. If you change the demographic balance, then it becomes safe for the Pandits to stay there. The Pandits didn`t leave because they didn`t like the land or the air. They did so becoz they were a minority that was harassed. As far as the planted threats are concerned, my view of the identity of the perpetrators of the threats are different from yours. Let us agree to disagree.

``After the Bombay riots Muslims did leave. Only those who were anyway immigrants – people who had come from UP, Bihar, MP. For them Mumbai was not home, just a workplace. The locals stayed back and are still here. Being in a different city does send out the wrong signals. And that is the reason I feel the Pandits should not object to being called migrants. ``

Well, in that sense the majority of Pandits are still in the same state. They did leave the valley, but the majority of them are in Jammu which is the same state.


``Basically you are trying to say that Kashmir is a Kashmiri problem. That is a falsehood. It is a Muslim problem. Not one Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist has ever joined the terrorists. The JKLF and Sahbir Shah may rant about their secularism but not one of them has ever had a non Muslim follower. All Non Muslim communities of Jammu and Kashmir want integration to India. It is only the Muslims who have a problem. I know this may sound politically incorrect but to deny the communal nature of the Kashmiri insurgency is to deny the truth.]

See, you are discussing the terrorist groups as though they are a government (when I say they have the sympathy of the locals, I am deemed anti-national.) Yes, they do not have non-Muslim followers; in a Muslim-majority state that would anyway be difficult. How many Muslims are in the RSS, Bajrang Dal, VHP? The ruling party puts up its two-three totems. And here we are talking about legitimate government. If non-Muslims wanted integration, the question of Panun Kashmir would not have arisen. And when you talk of non-Muslims in that State you are talking about 3 per cent of the population. ``


See, obviously I understand the point that I made about the coomunal nature. But I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say in your response. Yes, Muslims do not join the Bajrang Dal and all, but what does that have to do with Kashmir? If yopu make the point that Kashmir is not a religious problem, then the Buddhists or Sikh or Hindus too would have joined the militancy.

Are you by any chance talking of only the valley when you talk of alienation? Your point is logical only if you limit yourself to Kashmir Valley and not Ladakh or Jammu.

If that is the case, then I would ask why only the valley feels alienated and not Jammu and Ladakh. They are all part of the same state. In terms of administration, the valley gets the lionshare of revenues. The only thing that makes the valley distinct is again the religious composition. Like you said 3% or so were non Muslim. Hence, it proves my point that the Kashmiri issue is entirely communal in nature, and it is an issue of Muslims in the urban areas at least, wanting to seperate.

BTW, when I keep saying Kashmir is a communal issue, I keep referring only to that local issue. In my various interacts with 12 Head have not done anything to support the insurgency.


``I am glad you call this sanctimonious crap because I use the same yardstick when ‘liberal’ Hindus go into overdrive.``

Are you talking of the Congress Party? Anyone who talks big but is hypocritical has no moral standing in my view, be it the Hurriyet Conference or the Congress Party.



``At least in Kashmir there has been a concrete move to protect its minorities. ``

HAHAHA!! Like what?? Sending in the Army?? Sure!! But the Kashmiri Muslims or the Hurriyet Conference can hardly take credit for that.

dear farzana,
apart from being the dialogue writer on kashmir, i also happen to be a kashmiri pandit and let say a fan...have read your articles often in midday and `gentleman`(alas like all good things it ended).well here are a few things i have to say-
1.karan singh is not a kashmiri pandit but a dogra rajput and the kashmiris (both pandits and kps)have their own unique notions about them.

2. like all minorities, the jews in europe, muslims in india, th kps were discriminated against and like jews and kashmiris have earned a nickname in common kashmiri language and mindset . the nickname suggests that thare weaklings, misers and effeminate.

3. you seem to think that they were holding key posts at all administrative levels. the actual figures will disappoint you-the maximum among them are primary and secondary school tecahers. the j&k state govt employs very few of them compared to the central(read hindu indian govt). they are not much of a business community and the literacy level is almost 100% and in this they are similar to the kayashtha community in bihar.

4. there was no support to them from abroad unless you in the typical kashmiri muslim fashion consider india to be a separate country. the only minority which got some aid is the shia minority after khomeni`s rise.

5. the kashmiri pandits compared to muslims in bombay is very less...if the pop. of muslims in gujrat is around 7%, the pop. of kashmiri pandits in the valley is not even 2%

6. they migrated due to fear psychosis but there was a silent pattern of migration which was already on.the toppers amongst them always chose bits pilani or the iits and got out. eduaction suffered in the early days of militancy and education is considereda passport to a good life amongst kashmiri pandits.

7. i left kashmir in a mini bus, my mom in a taxi, my maasi in a truck-when where these air tickets being distributed by our fav. whipping boy jagmohan...farooq abdullah who confirmed thsi for us must have a record of the boarding passes, the names of the travel agency or at leat details from the airlines can be obtained as to how many kashmiri pandits actually flew out of srinagar.

8. sometimes in a village like chandpora there were only 10 or fifteen families in a radius of 17 kms...what tokenism were they expected to show.

9.in modi we have a living example of a hindu against muslims, why is it so difficult to believe that muslim equivalents of him could have existed in kashmir at that time. refer to news track-sallauddin , the kashmiri commander of hizb, the notices in al safa asking pandits to leave directly by the org, look at the hizb`s rise and see the patterns of their early killings-the back drop rural, the killing predominantly innocent kashmiri pandits.

10.majorities have been rarely good to minorites even in secular india, why is it difficult to believe that kashmir followed the trend?

11.panun kashmeer has not been declared secessionist because they do not have a seccessionistic agenda...that we dsiagree with them is a different case.

12.ashok pandit has a thing for publicity and he talks non sense but he was amongst the only pandits to visit gujrat maybe to tell them,` we know how it feels` and is now shooting in kashmeer. it is the pandits that the news papars never cover who will probably never go back.

13. the story of the serial is set in 1989. prof kachru could go to bail out wani. once the militnats were finsished with kachrus, people like kachru amongst muslims were targetted. the islamistaion of kashmir runs exactly parralel to the rise of the right in india and the year 1989 is imp to both for this reason.

14. just as somnath or godhra is no justification for gujrat, pandit jobs or aid or that theywere stuck up is no cause for mowing them down and if they did not want to be killed and ran for their lives, we should not grudge them that

15. the kashmiri pandit claim that we suffered because we were secularists and nationalists is not true..they suffered becasue they were hindus and they know that...they just do it because it is fashinable.similary muslims in gujrat did not suffer because they were secualists or misers or exploiters, they suffered because they were muslim.

16.early noises were made about killings whether they were hindu r muslim-kps said tika lal taplu was killed because he was with the bjp, they said ok, kps said neel kanth ganju was killed because he hanged maqbool butt but they began quetioning jklf when they realised the 22 muslim witnesses were left alive?(and thank god for that)then lawyers , tecahers and doctors and nurses were seen as hindu killings and they did protest . akilling for a minority is never a smple killing because they are so few in no.

18. yes only a few pandits live in camps and thank god for that.

19. yes they lived a much more peaceful life in kashmir than their muslim counter parts in india. i believe that our muslim friends very very kind to us...barring some barbs in school , i have recieved mcuh love from them , now and then but one must call a spade a spade.the kashmiris became as communalised as the hindus in gujrat


20. do not fear to criticise their erstwhile neighbours just because narender modi also criticises them. criticise veryone who kills in the name of religion or asks for killings in name of it.`

21. the germans accepted killing jews, the hindus should admit to killing muslims in gujrat and the kashmiri muslim should accept it was his duty to protect the hindu, the day we do that, we would at least have made a beginning.

I hope you wil read this and possibly benefit from it as i have benefitted from you articles all these years.

Thanks and bye,
ritesh

dost-mittarji:
Shukria...regarding ``spice and spike``, sach poochho tau my tastes are bland...adding sugar to dahi...hadd kar di :) Let us see what stands me in good stead. Phir mulaquat (not muquabla, I hope) hogee...

Regards,
Farzana

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ali78 #233
``On bhajans written by muslims,
What am I to do about those people? ``

I don`t think you have to do anything. You look at it negatively, whereas I referred to it as something positive. You are the Muslim here, you tell me what I am to do about those people.


dost-mittarji
I want to say its good to see you back! Hope you had a good trip to India and hope to read about your travels on chowk :).

#224 by Studebaker on April 3, 2003 12:01pm PT

“To day just b/c i became muslim suddenly that AAlam Panah SHAHENshahs crime becomes mine to redeem????????????????????”

Then why do Muslims have these Allam-panahs as their heros? In Paksitan the missiles are Ghauri, ghaznavi, Abdali…
If most of the current Indian Muslims were converted by the fierce Shehenshahs then weren’t they as much( if not more) of victims of these Allam-Panahs than the current day Hindus?
But what can they do? They are Muslims now and have to stick to it, just by hating their previous relgigion.


#Ali87

And look at Ali…..if he could ..he would destroy all the temples of India..
Ali is very unhappy in India. He loves his religion from the core of his heart but has full right to insult and put down other religions. I personally feel Ali would feel more comfortable living with like-minded Pakistanis…..more at home with the present day Abdalis/Ghauris….Really such Indian Muslims can seriously think of going to Pakistan permanently, better late than never. One should feel happy in life whether you live in India or Pakistan or elsewhere.

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# 227 by ali87

ali87 might want to look thru a translation of Islamic Bangladesh`s national anthem ``Amar Sonar Bangla`` and compare it with his translation of Bande Mataram`s first stanza (only the first stanza has been recognized as the national song). He`ll be amazed to discover the striking similarity - they are both idyllic odes to the motherland.

It is also interesting that the music composition of both ``Amar Sonar Bangla`` and ``Bande Mataram`` are by the same composer.

#220 by sadna on April 3, 2003 11:52am PT
On bhajans written by muslims, Sure there are muslim muderers, Saddam Hussein is a muslim so are many others who do things not sanctioned by Islam.

What am I to do about those people?

#223 by sadna on April 3, 2003 11:54am PT

Its better to respect Hindus, even if you cannot respect their religion. I respect Islam because I find many Muslims very worthy of respect. I respect Christianity and Judaism for the same reason.

I made a mistake, not justifiable at all.

re:#229 by pmishra2
Mr Einstein,
Why don`t you offer some intelligent solutions to this vexed problem? Let us see what you have.
Sridhar

re:#205 by Studebaker
You are quite right. The motivation was loot. Religion was used as a pretext. Some rulers like Auranzeb genuinely felt they were being good muslims if they did what they did.
Sridhar

#220 sadna

Clever solutions are possible for hindu-muslims issues when intelligence and imagination are used. From Dara Shikoh to Kabir, from Guru Nanak to Abdul Kalam many individuals have demonstrated and exemplified these capabilities.

Those who simply quote some ancient scriptures and take them literally are of course not among such imaginative people. Those who denigrate other traditions in crude and demeaning ways are even worse.

Individuals such as ali87 (and his hindu counterpart, who is typically over-exercised over muslim personal law and muslim educational backwardess) and the Shahbuddin/RSS-type people are folks who are stuck in reactivity. These people have no program for india, no vision for the future. They are capable only of reaction and quarreling, for demanding a piece of the roti but without every helping build a big, huge dastarkhan for all us to share.

#202 by rsridhar on April 2, 2003 7:55pm PT

Again on Vande Mataram. What is about a song that defines nation hood? what if the nation changes it boundaries? What happens to the people and their songs?
I feel Nationhood should be identified by a set of Ideals. Its about people not so much about the physical land. (Though people have an attachment to the physical characterstics of a land). What is different between the land beyond the border in Pakistan? Or on the other side. Is burma substantially differnt from Tripura?

What changes the land is the people and their way of life and their belifs their Ideals.

Thus Hilly Bhutan has a differnt resonance from Siliguri. People change the land they live in according to their way of life. What is different across the border south of california in mexico? True there are some physical Identifiers which are unique in every place.

To rest nationhood on physical charcterstics is shallow.

True the song was symbolic of Indan freedom struggle and have inspired many leaders. It is also possible that they either over looked its context and Imagery because it did not bother them or the agreed with the context of its origins or they were not aware of its origins.

There are many things that were unique about Indian freedom struggle. Im sure there will be no shortage of symbolism which is acceptable to all. Also India is not short of poets musicians philosopers or writers or even old poems, songs that it cannot choose/define new symbols of unity and love.

I have no problem in knowing that hindus sing it in context of the imagery and symbolism and reject its original context inwhich it was written. However they can because they have no objectiosn to the religous symbols in it.
I cannot however sing it. Such a thing which divides or a makes a sizeable section uncomfortable should not be a symbol of unity etc(which by the way national symbols should be).

How can one sing a song and mentally reject its imagery. I thought that the purpose of singing is to take to heart what it says.
Otherwise it another meaningless exercise that we enact in our national life.

Regardless of what Sri Aurobindo says I cant agree with him on this. Incidently Sri Aurobindo had some very serious differences with Gandhiji and his polices(that is what the hindu sites say.)

Farzana:
I was somewhat reluctant in writing my previous post because, in some sense, your style is what makes you, you. After all, how many people can claim the level of interest that your articles generate? On the other hand, the problem with that style is well stated by yourself, ``But, and you will agree with me here, there are times when ‘I’ become the issue. And in those cases, the real subject becomes incidental and the responses are cryptic one-liners about me.`` I presume that you would prefer that while discussing your article, the ``issue`` remains the issue and not your personality. I believe you could do so by retaining your spice and spike while remaining sensitive to the sensitivity of those whose opinions you would like to influence.
Regards

# 214

ali87 wrote:
+++
``...to call him a devout mulsim you have to test him by whether he follows (at least agrees) with the basic principles of Islam.``
+++

Does ali87 know that in this day and age, there is a country where, under the law of the land, it is unlawful for members of a persecuted community to call themseves Muslims or evn to recite the kalima. The five million members of the community in that country are not allowed
into mosques and are prosecuted if they say Islamic prayers.

No, I am not talking of the ``Great Satan`` USA or even of much maligned Israel. I am talking of Pakistan where Muslims of the Ahmadi sect can be
sentenced to death (under Section 295-C of Pakistan Penal Code) if they dare use Islamic expressions like Asslam-o-Alaikum, Bismillah and Insallah.

Sections 295-A and 298-C allow the state to put away an Ahmadi in prison for as long as 10 years if he dares to call himself a Muslim. And it is quite according to the laws of the land for the authorities to demolish the Ahmadis` place of worship if they dare call it a mosque. Five
million Ahmadis in Pakistan must live under the shadow of laws undreamt of even by blacks in South Africa during their darkest hours.

In Pakistan the law of the land very specifically bars non-Muslims from the highest positions in the land. In fact, it is not enough to be a Muslim, you must be so certified by the country`s ruling elite to qualify for the positions.

Nobel Laureate Abdus Salam, for example, was not entitled to be a Presidential candidate. As an Ahmadi, he was a mere Kafir according to Pakistani law.

When USA recommended an alumnus of the World Bank for succeeding Nawaz Sarif after his first stint as the Prime Minister, the ablest among the alumni had to be bypassed for he, too, was an Ahmadi. And earlier,
when Benazir Bhutto, as Pakistan`s Prime Minister, had attempted to post an Ahmadi as Pakistan`s top diplomat at the United Nations, she was roundedly accused of being an infidel by the press and the political
establishment. The diplomat was soon found dead in a Tokyo hotel under mysterious circumstances. Benazir, herself, was dismissed by President Ishaq Khan soon after.

In Pakistan, even the mere rumor that you are an Ahmadi can ruin a person. Some years back, when the office of the Chief Justice for the Supreme Court of Pakistan fell vacant, the nominating process said a lot about the guiding philosophy of ``Islamic`` Pakistan:

When the office fell vacant, the senior most judge took over as the acting Chief Justice and everyone assumed that he would soon be confirmed to the post. But the judge had enemies who promptly spread the rumor that he was a closet Ahmadi. The acting Chief Justice denied
vehemently that he had ever been an Ahmadi or ever will be one. But the damage was done. A junior judge was appointed the Chief Justice and the alleged Ahmadi was forced to resign from the Bench!!

Not even death will bring reprieve. Benazir Bhutto`s interior minister, General Naseerullah Babar, for example, came under nasty attack for merely attending the Namaz-e-Janaza of his Qadiani friend, Mumtaz Ahmed Malik.

Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmed (the spiritual head of the Ahmadis) visits India anytime he wants to. But, understandably, he never dares to visit Pakistan.

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ali87 #214

``If you find any suppourt for any misguided or silly practice of muslims many of which you and others have listed out in any of my posts let me know other wise please dont draw inferences where none are needed. ``

ali87, you do that too. Let me know when you find a Hindu who supports the silly customs and practices you have listed in your posts. Otherwise donot draw inferences about Hindus when none are needed.

``
Sadna note im not taking the opportunity to discuss the virtues of the god who was suppossed to have a 1000 wives, and who dalliyed with many gopis including the much married Radha. You accept him as your god i have no problem with that.``


ali78 please note, unlike you I am not taking the opportunity to discuss the virtues of a man who got his son to divorce his wife so that he could marry his daughterinlaw.

And why exactly am I supposed to care about what you think of Krishna? In my father`s native place, there was an ancient and famous Krishna temple, mentioned in contemporary narrations of the time, which was utterly destroyed by one of the Lodis a few hundred years ago, who it is written also took care to lay waste the large orchards around the temple. Now only ruins are left.

That guy`s sentiment in destroying the temple was similar to yours. In nearby Mathura, more Krishna temples were destroyed, in one case at least a mosque was built over the ruins. Inspite of all this destruction and desecration, Krishna is widely worshipped and respected in that region, and this is something you will evidently have no understanding or value for, though these are your fellow-Indians.

I suggest to you that this approach of yours of debasing Hinduism is not going solve the problem of Hindus and Hinduism for Indian Muslims, when even the Ghazis and Lodis with full armies couldnot make this approach work. And I have never heard when Hindus have converted to Islam just because their gods are badmouthed. Its better to respect Hindus, even if you cannot respect their religion. I respect Islam because I find many Muslims very worthy of respect. I respect Christianity and Judaism for the same reason.

Of course if anyone like LeT Pakistanis want a low intensity or high intensity civil war to punish those who still stick to their pagan ways, so be it.

dost-mittar #210

I am not sure what your point is? Could you elaborate? I donot know if Shahabuddin ever did or didnot use hate speech as well, like Hindutva-types do, I hope not.

According to me Shahabuddin is justified in promoting a point of view he holds about the official status of Muslims in India, that of eternal and `purified` separateness. But his view is in direct confrontation with the Constitution which claims to have sovereignty over all Indians affairs (and comes between Shahabuddin and his religious law) and which directs us to make a transition to a common civil code.

AND there is a general point to be made about Shahabuddin-type attitudes of looking after Muslim interests only. Just like for example Narasimha Rao `graduated` from promoting his state AP`s interests to promoting the whole of India`s interests as Prime Minister, I wish more Muslims(esp educated intelligent ones like Shahabuddin) would graduate from being leaders of the Muslim community to being leaders of larger more disparate groups of Indians. For this one must have respect and empathy for the problems of fellow Indians who are not Muslims.

I have the same advice for Hindutva politicians of course.

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PS:
Re ali78
Forgot to mention, I recently saw a book of bhajans which had been ordered from a wellknown Hindu religious publisher. All the famous bhakti poets` bhajans were included and approx the last 1/4-1/3 of the book had poetry about Krishna written by MUSLIM poets over the last many hundred years.

#213 Farzana
//...Sometimes, as in my detailed post to mohar11, I think it is a wasted effort. Because the view about what I am is too entrenched...//

I missed that post - couldn`t keep up with all the posts flying fast thru this board. But now that you mentioned it - I went back and checked it out. I hope to reply to that post before this board goes out of circulation.

Just to clarify - I have no fixed view about ``what you are``. To me it doesn`t matter. I think such accusations are pre-emptive and should be kept in check, because if we all start throwing such accusations at each other then there could be no interactions in chowk at all .

I am just responding to your opinions as expressed in your articles published here. My responses could be as direct and forceful as your ariticles are, which may comeback to you as some kind of ``entrenched`` notions. They are not.

[#194 by harimau on April 2, 2003 4:18pm PT
Are you sure? It may be closer the second `l` than the third `l` of Tamil. ]

Since I do not know all `l` Tamil has, I cannot answer your question. But Gujarati has 2 l`s. Hindi has only 1. The second `l` of Gujarati has pronunciation close to zh of Tamil as in Tamizh or Kazhagam or Annbazhagan (Malayali name).

May be you should send to the audio section of Chowk a sample of Tamil utterance(s) giving examples of three l`s. But probably (like Koreans) I will not be able to distinguish between all Tamil l`s.

Since (for now) our communication is restricted to text only I can just give more examples of the Gujarati -zh-:

You must have heard Hindi movie song: Jyoti Kalash Chhalake... (singer: Lata). In Hindi -zh- is missing but in Gujarati Kalash would be written/spoken as: Kazhash. Gujarati word for accusation is Aazh. Gujarati word for Kaal (time, or nemesis) is Kaazh. For example: Shaishavakaazh means childhood. Of course this word is sankritised, more usually we say Baazhapan for childhood. Shankar Bholenath in Guajarati will be said as: Shankar Bhozhenath. Gujarati word Bhozho (hindi: Bhola) means ``simple guy``.

In the alphabetic sequence -zh- is written along with four ``special consonants``: Ha, Zha, Ksha, Jna.

Gujarati alphabet:

Ka Kha Ga Gha N(g)
Cha Chha Ja Za (j)N
Ta Tha Da Dha (d)N (palateal series)
ta tha da dha Na (dental series)
Pa Pha Ba Bha Ma

Special consonants:

Ya Ra La Va
Sa Sha Shha
Ha Zha Ksha Jna

Unlike Hindi we do not have Jha (like in Mujhe Jine Do, movie title). Ditto ditto in marathi. Reason why Lata Mangeshkar and Marathis/Gujaratis sometimes mispronounce Jha as Za, is the fact that both Jha in Hindi and Za in Gujarati occupy same place. In hindi Za would be written as Ja with a dot under it to distinguish it from Ja.

Also Hindi has a variant of palateal Da which is written as regular palateal Da with a dot under it to distinguish it from palateal Da. The pronunciation is closer to Gujarati zh but more near to Da. Like in hindi Pakora (vegetable fritter, Bhajji of Marathi). In Pakora `ra` is this ``dotted`` palateal Da. This dotted Da could be considered as lazily spoken Da. The tongue is not pressed hard on palate producing a sound closer to Ra.

ali87,
I commend you for your perseverance.

#206 by harish_hyd on April 2, 2003 9:49pm PT

What rubbish!!

Banning cow slaughter is equal treatment. sing hindu songs is equal treatemnt, having the concept of Hindu Undivided family for tax breaks etc is equal treatment.

equality is letting each religion follow its basic tenets as far as personal law as this interfers with religious belif. we are not asking to implement Islamic law on others.

We are not saying that punish a muslim if he commits a crime as per Islamic law.

Why will christains complain on this issue the law that is being proposed is followed by the christians all over the world. Not that it is in their religon. They no longer know or care to follow what their religon calls for.

As for exemtion from singing Vande Mataram is concerned a national song should unite not divide. What kind of national song is it that its origins were in the hate filled Novel and in context of intense hate of mulsims. What national song is it that most people dont even understand and in a language which is not even spoken by 1 percent of the population of the country.


Why should singing hindu songs be called equality.

Stop talking rubbish.

I think that you loose your logic when you start discussing religon.

If hindus are turning to BJP because muslims refuse to subscribe to hindu religious practices then it is not the fault ofthe muslims. It is the short coming of hindus.

Imagine this is like commiting a crime and claminging victimhood.

dost-mittarji (#177):
Thank you for this note. And this is no “buzurgana” or patronising tone, but you will have to bear with a reply…
1.The purpose of writing for Chowk…there is no ‘plan’; very often the articles have already been published elsewhere in India. One writes primarily because one is responding to happenings around one. More than “influencing” people, which is a tough call, one hopes that the questions one throws up might set off a pattern of thinking – either to confirm or dispute.
2.My audience…to begin with, it is myself. Do I believe in what I say? The answer is yes. For the rest, it is anyone who reads. How they react has a lot to do with how they feel about the issue themselves. But, and you will agree with me here, there are times when ‘I’ become the issue. And in those cases, the real subject becomes incidental and the responses are cryptic one-liners about me.

To quote you. “I try to be analytical and unemotional about these
matters but even found myself moving my head horizontally more frequently than vertically when reading your article and vice versa when reading your interacts…”

I understand that religious and nationalistic issues are sensitive matters, and because I am sensitive to them my writings tend to be “emotional”. I have admitted that often enough, and also realised that it can work both ways – more understanding of one’s position or more dislike. I am afraid I cannot sit and calculate and write in a manner that might be palatable. But, don’t I make it a point to interact so that those who have genuine arguments know my position more clearly? The fact is that readers can air their views at any time.

Sometimes, as in my detailed post to mohar11, I think it is a wasted effort. Because the view about what I am is too entrenched. I think it is facile to believe that one can change one’s stand or “error in blaming the victims of a massacre”(which I had not done, since you cannot blame dead people and the way in which it has been interpreted) by just corresponding on the Board here.

I know this response too will not be what you expected, but I owed you one.

Regards,
Farzana

godot (#188):
Bad enough that your first post took me completely by surprise, you come up with another one. I am still reeling…what are you talking about?

[First, let me thank you for re-posting my post that was meant, although in a twisted way, as praise for you. For the lesser souls, it does happen quite often that those you like and trust can stab you in the back in an opportunistic moment to make themselves look good.]

This is a new definition of back-stabbing. You had not whispered that in my ear nor was it a personal communication; it is there on a public forum. Several of my interacts have been used by others to prove other points than what they were meant for. What I re-posted was not to make myself look good in the eyes of Chowkies, but to convey to you that you had at one time not felt the way you had expressed yourself here, and it was not so long ago. And no, I did not refer to your “invective” posts. You might regret it today, but you have sometimes come in to say a nice thing or two and not so nice things about the people you are worried about now.

[What about my diatribe? I do not write articles that attack people, their behavior seen from a biased pen, or a way of living. Interacting and posting as a piece of conversation is entirely different than writing an article for publication. I thought you knew that much. I was mistaken, yet again. And yet another stab in the back.]

I did not comment at all on your articles. You write primarily on literary matters and translate important works. Regarding attacking people etc., is one to keep quiet and play safe all the time? The “biased pen”, if you insist, is a personal response to events. And, just in case you are interested, the reaction to my pieces is uniformly the same irrespective of what I write on, including my non-political articles. And, why is this discussion of writer vs. interactor too a stab in your back? Don’t you think you took to liking me a bit too much??? Ok, this was not meant to be personal :)

[By “so many people and an entire community” I meant at Chowk, not entire India. And I thought you were smart! Mistaken again.]

No, I am not smart. Smart people sit back and watch the fun…even if you referred to the limited area of Chowk, what I said still holds: “There are a handful of Indians without real names and identities who rave and rant in the cyberworld, and they do not represent the whole community, just as I do not represent all Indians, or Indian Muslims, or women or several other things.”

[What makes you think you are any better than those who have twisted your name and address you in a despicable manner? One wonders who is at fault here. By keeping silent in response does not prove you are any better or even right. It is your articles that speak for you, and that, dear Farzana, is a fact. Quoting a letter from one unknown Indian who likes your writing does not prove anything. There are fifty Indians at Chowk who think of you on the contrary.]

I am not in competition with anyone here. I am perhaps among the few writers here who do not keep silent, even against the sage advice by friends to keep away. Yes, I have stopped interacting with certain individuals because I cannot respond to name-calling. It is a personal choice. As I said in another post, they do air their views, so the question of whether I am better or right does not arise. And I do know that my articles speak for me, but only about the topic. They are not all of me. The ‘unknown Indian’ is not unknown, but has chosen to stay away to get rid of negative thoughts. And he does not like my writing; he disagrees with quite a bit. And I am not sure there are 50 Indians who think to the contrary…but whatever the figure, I cannot arrange my life according to their whims.

[No, Farzana, there isn’t anyone as privileged as you at Chowk. It’s a great irony that your articles are despised by very those you seek to address, something Chowk Editors conveniently overlook in your case, one after another. Now, that’s privilege!]

You are aware that there are readers of Chowk articles who do not interact, aren’t you? Will it surprise you that I have had letters from people in respectable positions who have commented on my writings here, and they are Indian? That they have taken the trouble to get my email addy to do so? That some of the most revered Chowkies are my friends, whether they agree with me or not?

And having been in the profession for several years now, let me tell you something. The moment a forum (website/newspaper/magazine) decides to play into the hands of anyone, it loses its independence. Chowk also publishes anti-Pak articles, pro-India articles (I would insist mine are pro-India because as an Indian I do have the right and duty to probe what goes on in my country…I am not big enough to provide solutions). It is their prerogative. Have you ever wondered why not many ‘concerned’ Indians are there to interact on ‘balanced’ boards?

However, if you have a real grouse, you may address the issue to editors@chowk.com.

I think you have raised a disturbing point here, and I think it ought to be discussed further. To this end I am starting a thread on Chowk Unplugged ‘Off the wall discussions’ thread using your post as a valid starting point. If you have the time or inclination, I hope you interact. And should you wish to get in touch with me, my email addy is farzanavee@yahoo.com.

Best wishes,
Farzana

Various posts::


my my how I have ruffled the feathers.

I have read a few aritcles and seen a few interviews of Shahubddin. In that I did not find any thing to indicate anyhatred towards hindus. I do not know much about his other speeches etc.
However if it is any indication with people calling hindu hater I can assume that it wouldlt have been much that he has said.

As for the hypocircy of muslims It woluld be good if such accusations came from people who themselves did not practice it. So if you claim that you are better where is the proof??

Singing Vande mataram is a forward thought?? Yes now it is clear how muslims have to approach modernity.

As for Abdul Kalam being devout mulsim. He may be a good man, Brilliant scientist. But to call him a devout mulsim you have to test him by whether he follows (at least agrees) with the basic principles of Islam.
Islam is professed by the kalima which clearly points to the unity of the creator and in belif in his messenger thus his message. the important principle is the principle of the unity of the creator and belif that he alone is worthy of worship.
This first principle it self is voilated by Abdul Kalam he professes to belive in the creator but at the same time worships saraswati a photo of whom he keeps by his bed(widely reported inthe media).
It is also reported by his collleagues that there was nothing religious about him. A colleauge of his of 17 years told the press that he has never seen or heard of Abdul Kalam ever offering the namaz either during working hours or after hours. he said that in this 17 years he has never come across him fasting.

offering the Namaz and fasting are the next two of the 5 pillars of Islam.
Giving Zakat is the 4 th pillar. I do not know about this aspect of abdul kalam however he may be a generous person and charitable.
The fifth pillar of Islam is performance of Haj if the person can afford to do so and has the health to undertake the journey. Dr kalam is over 70 years age to the best of my knowledge he has not performed haj. Apart from these duties there are many duties expected out of a muslim I will not go into those. But these have to be followed for him to be called a devout muslim. A muslim he may be it certainly doesnt seem he is a practicing muslim much less a devout muslim.
I donnt know about justice Ismail. He may be a Islamic scholar. there aremay hindus, christians etc who study Islam. I do not know what his belifes are so I wont comment. Translatiing a hindu text, analayising it or even appreciating the contents which are similar in Islam there is nothing wrong in all this. But to interpret Islam with reference and suppourt of a hindu context seems to me that he is on dicey ground there. But all will depend onthe context in which he has done and what exactly he has done. As I dont have Info. I cant say much.

Sadna
If you find any suppourt for any misguided or silly practice of muslims many of which you and others have listed out in any of my posts let me know other wise please dont draw inferences where none are needed.

muslims have indeed may faults and are backward in may areas of theworld indeed may of the things they profess to be Islamic are not so. however I have not tried to defend their practices. I have only tired to point out that they are just as good or bad as the people of the religion you follow. you take instance of many such muslim countries. have you stopped to think that what about the only Hindu country Nepal. What of its poverty, Its people voting to go out of their hindu rajya and becoming the principal export. I could easily say that this is all the result of hinduism. Of the anarchy prevalent there. Similarly the it is wrong to say that the Sikh extremism was not supported by the Sikhs. I used to live in Delhi at that time had may sikh friends and neghibours. At best their views were ambivalent.

As for my bashing hindu religion. I do not do so. At least I try not to Initiate it. Uusally this is in response to a similar act by one of the hindus here. have a look at my posts if you see posts where I have initated this silly thing let me know.

On the other hand most hindus indulge in this here. Take any article and see how the argument starts. Agreed that there are a few muslims here who do bait hindus but by and large I can say most hindus start this muslim baiting. Just see the start of these chain of responses you will find similar case in most discussions.

Sridhar...
I have no problem if Abdul kalam cannot speak urdu. I admire his achivements, his vision for development. However he is not a devout mulsim. I was in chennai last month even the tamil speaking muslims call him Kalam Iyer, As for Rafiq Zakaria I have read his articles and some portions of his book But I dont agree with all of his analysis. He has a few good points to make but just because he is a Islamic scholar I do not have to take his take on every thing. He is doing a good job though in trying to provide some kind of leadership to muslims I however disagree with him on some of his conclusins and solutions.

As for who my hero is my favorite is Prophet Mohammed. Among people living (well known figures)I either I havent come across a presonality who I can say is my hero. Mahatir Mohammed is one person who seems to be doing the right things. But some of his actiosn are dubious specially his iron fist rule. But I havent studied him much so I cant say about it. There are a number of muslims who I admire in daily life. They ordianary people with their fallacies. But there is much I learn from them. There are a number of other people I admire who are not muslims.


As for me whining where did i do that. Looks like you could take that advice yourself. There are many muslims who are good who dont sing vande mataram, who are devout and try to follow all the edicts of Islam. I am yet to see you appreciate that.

Islam I will defend muslims are with their faults. but if you critizie them blindly for following Islam then you better do it from a better positon. if you yourself are guilty of what you call bad in muslims then what is the reason to point fingers. As you yourself keep harpiing that The BJP is is bad. Do we belive that the hindus who suppourt BJP are good. Then what is the BJP if not a suppourt group of Hindus. If Hindus are turnign against muslims then the responsiblity should be fixed squarely on their shouders for their actions. Why bring the muslims into It.

As for Imam Bukhari, he was totally unknown perrson outside old delhi. The media is the one which dubbed him as the voice of muslims. The congress and RSS dubbed his tirades as the voice of mulsims. Most mulsims even now would not have heard anything of him excpet what they read in the press. They do not follow him nor take up his suggestions. However there are some issues on which if they are correct they may agrree with his points. But to call him a leader of mulsims or their represantive is silly. even now excpet for the newspaper reading muslims no one would even know who he is.

#195 by m_souza on April 2, 2003 4:18pm PT
souza lets see you can pontificate about muslims but not the other way round. YOu can rant about how mulsims are terrorisig people around the world (mostly christians/westerners as per the evalangicals) but you can show sympthay for them but I cant talk of the sikhs killed.

I notice that instead of condemming the sikh roits you pointed out that the sikh terrorists and their backers were responsible for (what?) the roits in Delhi? What are you saying that you can kill your sikh brothers none of my business!!

#196 by harimau on April 2, 2003 4:52pm PT

sure there are may exceptions in sociteys, even in some communites in the north east similar tradation is followed.

Also on another point Lingayats of karnataka bury their dead. Bhramins of costal areas eat fish and some times other meat too. My mallu friends tell me that Beef eating is not taboo in kerala among hindus.(I dont know how far this is true)

some thing emerges out of these many responses is that sikh terrorists were not sikh, the had no religion, the hindu terrorists (what else would you call people who burn and kill thousands of innocents in a few days) are not responsible for their actions it is the fault of the muslims.

Another trend that emerges is that the hindus consistently try to put words in my mouth then go around vilifiying me.

#193 by m_souza on April 2, 2003 4:18pm PT
Souza is a intresting guy takes very little to get him wound up. He calls hindus sissies, in one post he says he doesnt mind using the word allah or kuda in another he says he wont use the words again. Did I ask you to use them I simply said that Allah and Kuda are names to call the creator. Since Hindus have no objections in using these words from a religous point of view since their religon accepts all routes they can use them if the want to. Not that I am asking them to.

As for calling a land mother land I dont think it can be called Idol worship I did not say. I talked about calling motherland the lord.
Such stubleties escape him.

in his next post
Sohani Dharti... so sohani means dark, so how this goe.. Sohana safar? my punjabi is rusty does this mean ``dark weather`` hardly romantic. Is the meaning not pleasent?
So what is wrong in calling a land as beautiful as woman? idolising means attribuiting godly powers to a Idol or person in the Islamic context.
bythat extention saying that you have a rose like complexion is Idolising!!! I some times wonder if people like you have even a basic knowlege of Islam.
as for Sanwariya it means the dark one. Reference is to Krishna. but if you extend this meaning then no one can be refered as the dark one. does it mean The western Ideal Tall Dark Handsome is hindu?

Sadna note im not taking the opportunity to discuss the virtues of the god who was suppossed to have a 1000 wives, and who dalliyed with many gopis including the much married Radha. You accept him as your god i have no problem with that.

sridhar:
``Why do the muslims need a seperate shariat court when no other community has it?``
I am not aware of shariat courts in India (they exist in Pakistan). Ordinary civil courts decide cases under Indian laws which, in case of muslims, means Muslim Personal Law.

sadna#187
``I have read a writeup or two by Syed Shahabuddin, who makes it clear in his writings that he shares with you a contempt for Hinduism.``
I have no problem with that. How can one believe Quran to be a literal truth and not have contempt for hinduism? But one ought to make a distinction between contempt for hinduism (or Islam, for that matter) and contempt for hindus (or muslims). Contempt for a religion or ideology is something intellectual, contempt for the practitioners of that religion, however, is hate of individuals and may even be prosecutable under the hate laws of many countries.

Roshan#183
I would give the same advice to Varsha Bhosle if I interacted with her.

Studebaker
You said,``.......,there is no Islam which justifies making Mosque over others property .It is basic knowledge every muslim should know that the money used to build house of prayer MUST pass much stricter criteria than that for Charity ,building orphanage ,musafir khana ,hospitals etc.etc. ``

Well, I suggest you visit Vishwanath Temple and adjoining mosque and then say that mosque is not built on demolished temple. It seems that Aurangzeb was so much in a hurry to build mosque over there that he let all those figures from the temple structure remain on the lower side.

This is only to correct your wrong statement. Otherwise I believe whatever happened a few centuries ago should be forgotten and we should n`t let history reapet itself.

Further to my post #174, I again invite Mr. Adnan_Rafiq to interact with me on the matters he highlighted in this post # 138.

If he choses to respond, it will be an honor for me to continue on he debate.

Studebaker
You said,``.......,there is no Islam which justifies making Mosque over others property .It is basic knowledge every muslim should know that the money used to build house of prayer MUST pass much stricter criteria than that for Charity ,building orphanage ,musafir khana ,hospitals etc.etc. ``

Well, I suggest you visit Vishwanath Temple and adjoining mosque and then say that mosque is not built on demolished temple. It seems that Aurangzeb was so much in a hurry to build mosque over there that he let all those figures from the temple structure remain on the lower side.

This is only to correct your wrong statement. Otherwise I believe whatever happened a few centuries ago should be forgotten and we should n`t let history reapet itself.

Re: various posts by ali87

If Indian Muslims want their own personal laws, the right to practise polygamy and exemption from singing Vande Mataram, then they`re only diluting the premise on which secularism and democracy operate, i.e., equal treatment for all religions and equality of all citizens before the law of the land. And yet, they ceaselssly whine about the demise of these very principles.

All Indians expect to be treated equally and since democracy is the guiding principle of the nation, Muslims must follow what everybody else does. Has anyone heard Indian Christians complain on this issue? This intrasigence is the reason why more and more Hindus turn towards the BJP, and the day might not be far off when the BJP lands up enough votes to form a government on its own. And then Muslims can expect to have their a**es whupped. That is why it is all the more important for them to be more accomodating.

You can`t have it both ways.

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re:#162 by ali87
To answer your post further, let me state that i have not talked about the common civil code, polygamy etc. These are issues raised by BJP and sangh. These seem to form an impression on a number of middle class hindus. These translate into votes.
These are real concerns and need to be addressed. But, the dialogue should start within the muslim community first. Are they doing it? I do not think so. They seem to say: what is wrong with polygamy? What is wrong with a seperate muslim code. These things seem to alienate muslim further and further from the majority community.

BJP will take advantage of the feeling of anger that arise out of these archaic laws. They should have been done away with at the very onset. Why do t