Survival of the Fittest

dost-mittar #349 I suppose I would qualify, per your grouping, as one of those muslims who take pride in human civilization. However, I am not doing this to AVOID identification with the Indian civilization, as you indicate. I think it is rather silly to take pride in just one culture as if it was one`s own achievement. Thus, to take the case of Indian achievements: Individuals responsible for past achievements (in math, architecture and so forth) are dead and gone. Those now living can only admire and marvel at these achievements, regardless of which part of the world they took place. However, to bask in the reflected glory of such past achievements is the sign of a very immature man or woman in my view. And once in a while you will see someone pop up on chowk to do exactly this.

As for your concern that Pakistanis disassociate themselves from Indian achievements and look towards muslim achievements, I suppose that is true for some people (after all, we have our geniuses too who like to bask in such reflected glory). However, if I had a penny for every time I have pointed out on chowk when someone from India brings up the issue that Pakistanis are in fact very proud of their pre-Islamic heritage and have pointed them for example to the Pakistan Government Toursim page if they dont believe me...if I had a penny for every time this was done, those pennies would have added up to a few dollars by now.

tahmed, bbabu:
The big difference between Hindus and most muslims (not all) is not that the first are necessarily the original inhabitants and the second came from outside. The difference really is that those who came before the muslims, whether huns, scythians, greeks, dravidians, aryans, africans or whatever do not wish to trace their ancestry to any other place except the subcontinent and take full pride in their pre-islamic civilization. Muslims (not all, again), instead, like to trace their ancestry and take pride in a civilization and culture outside the subcontinent. The moderates among them would rather avoid this awkward question altogether in this nebulous concept of tracing their origin to Africa and take pride in human civilization (why stop at Africa and why not go further down the evolution chain?).

found this on another bulletin board paknews.com


Dear Editor,

According to the news story, the cost of the war in Pakistan is about 2 Billion Dollars. I totally disagree. The current compensation to Pakistan is totally inadequate and quote one of our Generals (Zia ul Haq) is peanuts. The cost of the war to Turkey was about 38 Billion Dollars. Based on the size of our country, and our economic situation, and the cost of human lives, the cost of the first Afghan war to Pakistani was about 120 Billion Dollars and the cost of the second Afghan war to Pakistan was about 40 Billion Dollars.

The USA and the other countries should compensate Pakistan accordingly by building six new cities, a network of Bullet Trains, a canal system to irrigate Baluchistan, three new dams, enhance the freeways, 200 new hospital and 10,000 Karachi Grammar School type of schools. This is the price of Pakistani blood.

Best Regards,

Moin Ansari

[The author is moderator for Pakistani newsgroups on internet. He is a Political Analyst and an expert on South Asia.]

Zahra Khanoom - I liked that story/mythology very much! Thanks very much for sharing it (and for the comments as well). I think that I will revise and add to the posts to make it an article, given the recent developments between India and Pakistan. There are some thoughts I`m putting together on it and hope to send it in very soon.

bbabu# 342 You write: ``I am not sure if they came to India or if the piece of land called India attached to Eurasian landmass. Anyway they are the original inhabitants. I would not call them ``invaders`` in that sense. ``
India met Asia 55 million years ago, following its separation from the Gondwanaland land mass and drifting north. The first hominids evolved around 7 million years ago, and the first modern humans (cro-magnons) evolved a mere 30,000 years ago. Hope this clears up the confusion you seem to be having.

You write ``This is inspite of the fact 95% of Muslims are of same genes of Hindu neighbors. `` I think it is time to forget about this preoccupation with ``Indian genes`` (every third Indian poster seems to be obsessed by it, and I suspect it has to do with Indian nationalism - it certainly has no basis in reality). ALL humanity shares the same basic genes. Differences exist. But differences EVEN between individual humans, to the extent they exist, are greater than differences between humans in any community - even dravidians do not all possess the same genes. The greatest diversity is in fact WITHIN africa.

Instead of genes if one talked about a shared culture, common ancestry among Panjabis and Sindhis on both sides of the border (I dont believe ou have too many Pathan or Baluch Hindus, but I could be wrong), you would be more realistic.

tahmed # 342

``The ancestors of the aborigines of Australia also came ``out of africa`` - as did the rest of humanity. Including dravidians and aborigines, and also aryans, semites, hemites, chinese, swedes, eskimos, polynesians, incas, mayans, germans, brits, sindhis, biharis, the entire zoo.``

It is true everyone came from Africa. I am not sure if they came to India or if the piece of land called India attached to Eurasian landmass. Anyway they are the original inhabitants. I would not call them ``invaders`` in that sense.

While it is true that some Hindus think of Muslims as invaders and outsiders a bigger problem is that significant number of Muslims identify themself with outsiders like Arabs, Afghans etc. This is inspite of the fact 95% of Muslims are of same genes of Hindu neighbors.

#341 by arjun_m ``Umm..cause the paki government says no trade before the ``core`` issue(translation: Kashmir) is resolved(translation: India hands Kashmir to us on a plate).``

Yes I know. Such a pity isn`t it? Automobile sector is said to be the mother industry and its growth has provided tremendous support for economic growth of the developed world in their days of struggle.

I mean how sad that we can`t drive down next door to the beaches of Goa for a vacation, and you can`t come to visit the Hunza valley, like the Brits can go to Marbella or Nice or Amsterdam. We`re both suffocating in our claustrophobia being neighbours. A pity. But there`s always hope as long as good people are there on both sides.

I have written about Kashmir on the `Voices` board.

Rgds

m`souza #335 Glad you agree with this need to see beyond one`s ``community``. I put ``community`` in quotes since it is such an arbitrary concept, and can mean different things at different times even to the same individual.

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bbabu #337 The ancestors of the aborigines of Australia also came ``out of africa`` - as did the rest of humanity. Including dravidians and aborigines, and also aryans, semites, hemites, chinese, swedes, eskimos, polynesians, incas, mayans, germans, brits, sindhis, biharis, the entire zoo.
And once early groups of people left Africa, they went northwest, north and northeast. Some came thus came to India, thereby becoming the first invaders of India. And then new invaders came and beat up on the older invaders. And so on through the ages. And thus Ghauri and his friends were merely the last in a long succession of invaders.
As such, every single individual in the subcontinent is the descendant of ``invaders``. And now the time has come for to put an end to such violence. That is the only point I was making.

312 by arjun_m “another badly needed clue...

Which browser did you use to post your message? Going by the web statistics, there`s a 90% chance you used Internet Explorer. Have you ever used the pre 4.x version of IE?..the version when Netscape was king..

I could post a LOT of horror stories about IE if you want me to”

Okay the point is taken and the analogy understood. So The Tata Indica is better engineered now as some other posts have also indicated, but the Petrol version. Fine. So the Diesel version failed. Never mind. I’m sure Telco will fix that as well. At-least you have 100% indigenous technology in the automobile industry. If the Ambassador can’t come back, maybe Telco will bring out a spacious Sedan in its place for that particular market segment who need leg room in the back seat. The Chauffeur driven market.

I would still prefer to ride in an indigenously manufactured
Car, whether Petrol or Diesel, made in Pakistan or India. If India has a developed industry in automobiles, why not ship some of them across the border so we can kick the Toyotas and the Hondas out. I looked at the prices and a Tata Indica Car sells for Indian Rs 370,000 or thereabouts in India. The same kind of car costs upwards of Rs 500,000 here. Just imagine if India has an advanced automobile industry, Pakistan doesn’t have to import kits to assemble. Also remember Pakistan was assembling 6 cylinder Dodge Darts in the 60’s. So we can cooperate. We have the technology as well. And the tariffs can be worked out.

Wishful thinking? I think not. As I wrote on another board and copy/pasted here “In any event, now that Vajpai and the Pakistani PM (now Jamali) are on a mutual flirtation course again, let the process continue. I wish there would be a thaw on Chowk as well between the Indian/Pakistani interactors. After all, some of us may even be opinion leaders in our respective countries.

Rgds

tahmed32 #332

`` Even the Dravidians (they came from Africa, just like Europeans, Chinese, and every other people on earth).``

The Dravidians have more in common with Aborgines of Australia than the Negroes race.

zeemax # 310

I have been a passenger in a friend`s Tata Indica. I went around in the cities and highways. I will say that it is much better car than the cars of the 1970`s and 1980`s. I have been equally impressed with the Hyundai Santro. From personal experience liberalization has worked quite well in auto, cement and textiles sectors.

Hamidm ji

You are The Best ! Your Language, Words, Logic etc. and then the final product! Truly exhilrating!

Thanks and Regards
Horrible Hindu

#333 by tahmed32 on May 2, 2003 2:03am PT
``The poor man in Chennai and the poor man in Lahore has more important things to worry about - like the next meal``

How noble this thought is..
And this makes tahmed a better Muslim than the rest of people here who love only thier own community.. as charity in Islam should not be centred around helping only muslims..

#334 by tahmed32 on May 2, 2003 2:03am PT
``To this I would only add that there is far, far more good in India than Ashwariya (democracy, Gandhian ideals even though they are in retreat nowadays, a rich history and culture that we share). ``

Of course, who cares for these beauty queens although most of the Indian beauties have brains too (so they say). Anyway..Aish keeps fighting with Salman or is it the other way around?

Romair#323
``Take the good that comes from India (Madhuri and Ashwariya)``
Isn`t this what ghazanavis and ghauris did? Le plus ca change......