Survival of the Fittest

urstruly,

.... don`t worry, nothing is going to happen to pakistan...... why? ...... because, inspite of the mullahs, who have grown into a full blown case of hemmoroids from a minor anal itch, most pakistanis are decent folks who want to live and let live .........actually, the people of lahore seem to be having more fun than folks in any godforsaken hick town in the midwest - heera mandi still rocks way past your bed time and, as god is my witness, the ladies are prettier than they were twenty five years ago .............these people are not ready to die for god or kashmir, although they will kill for a good nihari or phaja`s paye ..........

.............it is the dang mullahs who are misleading these people into the fire of jannah............ all we need to do is turn down the volume on the masjid loudspeakers, shut down mansoora and akora khatak, open up ismailjee`s liquor store on canning road, pass a law against women covering up their faces in public (unless they are sinfully ugly), and declare basant the main national holiday .......... and everything will be just fine .......nobody is going to bother a civilized nation that lusts after indian actresses instead of kashmir ............ not to get off the subject, but i still don`t understand how a nation of perhaps the ugliest people on earth can produce such beauties ............

........ seriously, if pakistanis would just pipe down and stop being the standard bearers of a dangerous and defunct ideology, nobody would care if we had all the nukes in the world ............

This whole debate is at best rhetorical - The era of nation states is dead - welcome the age of teh MEGA STATE between a UNited Europe, United States, and perhaps later China and INdia other nations will be at the whims and fancy of these larger states....

The other nations can and will be brutalized or subjugated or at best mainupulated - because they lack the critical mass to protect their interests....

Iqbal was right - the stupidity of the muslims is beyond comprehension....
Consequently they will suffer the ravages of the MEGA-STATES.... - Self preservation is an instinct that does not influence the minds of cockroaches - because tehy lack the grey matter to think collectively.....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Pakistan is not next, hence there is nothing to worry about.

Infact, Pakistan was the first country on the radar screen, and Musharraf wisely changed directions. Before Afghanistan fell, Pakistan had switched qiblas from the Taliban. So Pakistan will not be, ``invaded,`` since an invasion is not required.

Unfortunately, Afghanistan and Iraq did not change directions and were, ``liberated.`` Afghanistan may end up being better off, but could it have been any worse off? However, Iraq and the USA will be in a mess, soon enough. The Shia maulvis will take over Iraq democratically any day, and the USA will be trying to fight them off with the likes of their beloved Chalabi (who is wanted in Lebanon and in Jordan where he has a 22 year jail sentence).

The only country(s) interested in attacking Pakistan are India and Israel. USA has no interest in attacking Pakistan. It infact has an interest in a prosperous Pakistan. That would open up its oil field access to central Asia. It would put nukes in control of a prosperous country rather than a poor one. And all said and done, everyone in the USA realizes that Pakistanis are far more sophisticated than Arabs and thus are a better choice for leading the Muslim world. And Pakistan doesn`t have a direct issue with Israel.

India will not attack Pakistan, now, because it cannot. That last stand-off was a watershed point in our military relations. If what my military colleagues tell me is correct, the day Pakistan test fired the missile during the stand-off was the day India was to attack. All of them had worked days and nights straight for the counterattack. But wisely, India does not want to get nuked, neither do we.

This leaves Israel. Israel would love to take out Pakistan`s nuclear arsenal, since it is afraid it may end up with Arabs. So it would love to launch a surgical strike against it. It could basically nuke all of Pakistan with its missiles from Tel Aviv, since its nuclear program is second only to USA`s and way way ahead of anything us South Asians have. However, nuking a country is not good public-relations.

So Israel could target a strike against the nukes. Infact it tried in 83/84. But Pakistanis have being doing this excercise for decades now. Protecting Kahuta et al. is the first lesson fighter pilots and air defence people are taught. And if legend serves correctly, even French ambassadors and civilian flights have not survived a trip over or around Kahuta.

So you can sleep comfortably Urstruly. Pakistan will not be attacked, because India and Israel cannot attack it, regardless of how much they want to. And the USA, which can attack it, doesn`t want to, or already did pre-Afghanistan.

Now if Israel and India planned a joint attack.....and USA looked the other way....hmm.....for that please see
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001508&channel=leafyglade%20inn&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

Asif # 34

Oh! God I cannot suggest using nukes against anyone, be it Israel or India. I do not beleive in the concept of ``pre-emption`` either. However, I do beleive strongly that nuclear technology does provide a cost efficient, logical, and extremely effective deterrent, though.

As far as Israel is concerned, I think one day the sanity will prevail - because Israelis may be be able to nuke any other Arab country in their neighborhood, yet they cannot nuke the Palestinians. The core of the problem will always be there. If South Africa can change, then I beleive Israel can also change (and so will India towards Kashmiris).

Since, Israelis are people of book, we in accordance with Sunnah of our Prophet (pbuh) should spare no effort to find a peaceful solution where all parties can live in peace.

We (Jews & Muslims) must understand that the source of this evil, which harms both Jews and Muslims is Europe. Jews must understand that the state of Israel is the humane version of Hitler`s Final Solution. The hatred towards Jews, in Europe was prevalent in each and every country prior to Hitler and it was written on the wall that Jews have to take the reverse-exodus back to where they came from in the Europe. This concept is not new. When Caliphate collapsed in Spain, each and every Muslim in the country was either killed or forced out of Europe. Similarly, India wants, each and every Muslim thrown beyond Hindukush. And similarly the future of Muslims in America and in Europe is also bleak. I do not see any signs of hope. Muslims will eventually have to leave the Europe and America. Some nations suceed in expelling the weak and vulnerable and get away with it, while other continue until they succeeed - it is probably an anthropological issue. We should make Europe realize that first they all (not just Hitler) comitted horendous crimes against humanity by the way they treated Jews, and then they have inflicted immeasurable pain on Muslims of Palestine by establishing a cruel, inhuman, and aparthied state like Israel in their land. A great historical injustice that Europeans did to Muslims is being perpetuated and enforced by the Americans. Jews must also made to realize that a nation who has survived Holocaust can not be apathetic towards their fellow human beings. Sometime I really doubt that Holocaust ever actually happened.

plz stop spreading rumours.nothing will happen to pakistan.musharraf and Bjp is getting sensible now.will safe guard their interest.

#26 by sadna

Huh? Second line of Defense-Military Preparations - tiers 2 to 5 have already been operationalized for last many years by Pakistan. What is new and how did they make Pakistan more secure?

Yes I agree, but the purpose and objective of establishing tier 2-5 defenses was different. Now the rules of game have changed. Pakistan now faces a bigger threat than India, therefore, we must enforce what we have, with a different objective in mind. When I was in the process of conceiving this thesis, I tried to work out solutions with in the constraints that we have and figuring out all the comparative and competitive advantages that we have.

You further write, quoting me As for tier 1- ``If there is a credible, overwhelming and persistent threat to Indian integrity, defense, and economic interests, from Pakistan- ………. thus Pakistan can avert an aggression. `` I never thought I would hear a Pakistani making a case for pre-emptive strike by India on his country. Thats what you are doing, Urstruly, and I thought you were intelligent.

I don’t think that I am making a case for a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan by India instead I am proposing that even a thought of it will have dire consequences for India.


If India considers an attack on Pakistan by `others` as inevitable, and thus India`s being dragged into the conflict by Pakistan as inevitable, why will India wait passively for that day and not prefer to choose the time and place for Indo-Pak conflict?

The purpose of the doctrine of deterrent that I have proposed is to not let India sit by passively. It will force India to act in our favor if such conflict should ever occur with a third party.

Thus of tiers 1-5 you have listed, India can well take up some of these preemptively, doing Indian sava ser on Pakistani ser, like it is doing in defense spending presently.

My estimate is that Pakistan can achieve such a deterrent by spending 1.5 – 2 Billion US dollars, spread over next three years. Pakistan’s current Forex exceeds probably 12- 16 Billion dollars. I think it will be an extremely wise investment on Pakistan’s part. I am all for reducing the man power of the armed forces and invest the saving into Missile and war technology. The shortage of manpower can be compensated by creating a people’s militia as I proposed in the article.


Thus India can possibly invest a lot more in fomenting internal disorder in Pakistan, it can commit itself to disrupting the Pakistani economy, and to allying even more closely with those who are threatened by Pakistani nukes like Israel, for joint contingency plans to nullify them.

This is already happening and we are well aware of that. Some maderchod fifth columnists among our ranks, however, try to down-play this by turning it into a Hindu-Jew-conspiracy theory, but here we have a Hindu confirming it.


Pakistan`s defence lies in good economic and diplomatic relations with India and rest of the world, not in becoming a international delinquent.

I agree. But it is not in the nature of man to give in to the tyranny of other, we are no exception. I think if India starts treating Kashmiris like human beings, there is a chance that Pakistani attitudes might also soften. You might be aware, of tens of my posts on Chowk where I have proposed certain steps that India should take to establish just and humane relationship with Kashmiris, and these steps DONOT by any stretch of imagination constitute a separation from India; but as long as Hindu religious nuts are ruling your country, I do not see any chance of that happening.

#64 by dost-mittar on April 24, 2003 7:53pm PT
rrehman:
You are too late by a year. I used the same expression last year to describe Vajpayee`s statements. It`s time to put up or shut up.

Wait a few more weeks I am sure they will start repeating the same old crap again, we all know Hindus can`t fight, if it wasn`t for the Sikhs in the army India would be ruled by some other colonial power.

It is a great relief to see that Chowk has a strong majority of sane voices.

The age of ideologies is gone. Even the age of nation states is gone. This is the age of economic-political blocks.

The sooner we realize this, the better.

If the Pakistanis continue to live in that dreamworld of Ummah or nationhood, and continue to waste time in useless theorizing, they will not need an enemy to destroy them.

They will gradually self-destruct as has been happening over last many years.

#10 by hrrehman on April 24, 2003 6:30am PT

[Frankly, it sounds funny now everytime he says that, everyone knows Hindus can`t fight.]

Oh yes, it is these cowardly Hindus (who can`t fight) who handed your butts back gift wrapped in 48, 65, 71, and 99.

#74 by hrrehman on April 24, 2003 10:49pm PT

[Wait a few more weeks I am sure they will start repeating the same old crap again, we all know Hindus can`t fight, if it wasn`t for the Sikhs in the army India would be ruled by some other colonial power.]

But the very fact that you`ve lost every war you`ve fought, be it 48, 65, 71 or 99 doesn`t speak too much for your fighting abilities either. In fact, the Paki Army is perhaps the only army in the world that hasn`t won a single war. Now go pop up the champagne.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly #70

``tiers 2 to 5 have already been operationalized for last many years by Pakistan. What is new and how did they make Pakistan more secure?``

Yes I agree, but the purpose and objective of establishing tier 2-5 defenses was different. ``

I always knew people who called these things `freedom movements` were m--- Pakistanis and here we have a Paki admitting it.

Though its not clear why would the same tactics, which failed earlier, work now, simply because the `purpose is different`.


``I don’t think that I am making a case for a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan by India instead I am proposing that even a thought of it will have dire consequences for India. ``

Well, you say the purpose of these tiers is to prevent a preemptive strike on Pakistan by the US. Since a future US-Pak conflict is totally dependent on policies of Pakistan and the US, its beyond India`s control. If India is going to be dragged into conflict by circumstances beyond its control, then it may well decide not to wait to be attacked and to initiate conflict on its own time frame.

``The purpose of the doctrine of deterrent that I have proposed is to not let India sit by passively. It will force India to act in our favor if such conflict should ever occur with a third party. ``

Its more likely, given the tiers 2-5 that India will consider its best interest to join up with third party to take measures to protect itself. So instead of Pakistan vs third party, or Pakistan+India vs third party as you hope, it will be Pakistan vs third party + India. Pakistan`s decision to join the war against Taliban was taken for similar reasons, and Taliban was an ally.

Re: Urstruly ref. final comments

Urstruly, you cannot as a nation create a policy and ideology of perpetual conflict and hope to sustain it indefinately. Secondly, no where in the article did you mention the role of judicary and the concepts of justice in Pakistan. You can have the strongest defence in the world, but without any equality of social justice, you will be a fragmented and weak polity and remain thus. Where are the reasons that ask for a reform in the justice system; make it independent and stop it from being the hand maiden of the military take overs? Where is the cry for justice, because without it, you are buiding on sand and what ever castle or fortress you create, will collapse and bury you within it sands, that will become the grave of your follies!

You ask the people of Pakistan to fight for Pakistan, but what are they fighting for; give them a cause to fight for and ask them not to fight for the sake of fighting alone!

Thanks for your patience in letting me say my spiel! Hope to hear a spirited defence from you!

Ciao

..who is S Mohammad in detroit?...