Pakistan and India - Lets Compromise

ali87

``dont be so happy about americans. There is a concerted campaign by US to control Indias Nuclear weapons or eliminate them. The route US would prefer to take towards containment of china is not arm India but to have bases in India. remember how US treats south Korea where it has its troops and provides nuclear shield``

I agree with you on this. It is very very important to draw a line between cooperation for mutual benefit and surrender of sovereignty. Uncle Sam never leaves the country where it sets its foot upon. If India lets USA have bases on its territory, its sovereignty will be seriously compromised. Then India will become a limited sovereignty state like our neighbor to the west. Our long history teaches us that compromise of sovereignty for short term monetry benefit is a very bad idea and those who do not learn from the history are accursed to repeat it.

#65 ferozk

I am 100% for development of Jammu&Kashmir. But who is going to invest there as long as our jehadi friends are running around blowing things up? Run a small search in the New York Times or any other good but ``neutral`` paper. Not a single week goes buy without an attack on schools, courts, marketplaces by jihadi mass murderers.

Would you invest money in such a place?

My suggestion to use special forces is a ``kinder, gentler`` alternative to the use of other military forces. Such forces can strike at bases and camps within Pakistan without excessive effect on civilians.

If you feel that jihadi violence can be curbed without forceful retaliation, I am sorry, I have to disagree. Only when people understand that for every indian killed, they or their families may get killed, will they take a more balanced view of the situation.

re: pmishra

Your mentioned that Indian special forces should attack militant camps in Pakistan. How will this solve the problem? Personally, it would be better to deny these militant groups any sense of legitimacy let alone attack them and make their cause justified. Secondly, do you not think that India can better neutralize them more effectively by making its part of Kashmir more economically developed than Pakistan`s and taking away the argument that Indians are oppessors? Why give them something to latch on and continue to fight for?

Besides, what are the consequences of such an action? Are you sure that Pakistan will react as the Indians might have ``game planned`` it?

Ciao

#57 by jay on May 9, 2003 7:22am PT

Jay you have been away from India for too long.... Imagning things are you?? or trying to merge a american reality on your conciousness..

#20 by jay on May 8, 2003 7:38am PT

Jay you are not being too orignal. you are trying to follow the foot steps of american evangelists in decribing the some aspects of Muslim life and relating this to Jihad or whatever and thus prove that Islam or muslims or Pakistan is evil.

This may work for a while on uninformed americans more diffiuclt on people who know.

Nice attempt.. Pakistan is the only country which goats are sacrificed on eid at home!!

Offal is thrown outside as a matter of pride!! Man you are delirous!!

on the prevailant trend on chowk by hindus in their attitude towards pakistan remember that if you have to live in peace you have to find reasons to forgive and move forward. I think that India will move forward towards peace despite these people.

#53 by arjun_m on May 9, 2003 7:22am PT

dont be so happy about americans. There is a concerted campaign by US to control Indias Nuclear weapons or eliminate them. The route US would prefer to take towards containment of china is not arm India but to have bases in India. remember how US treats south Korea where it has its troops and provides nuclear shield.

India can become powerful in its own right, by capitualitng to america it is only destined to a second class status.
most of the political class is aware of this. and wary of US Intentions.

Remember Saudi, Iraq and many other small and ineffictive countires are ``close allies of US`` just witness the treatment of France another close ally of US. Dont just jump with delight if americans are intrested in a closer relationship with India. Right now US military is conducting Military exercises with Indan Milatary this enables US to build close relations with individuals within our Military. It gives them a better assesment of our acutal capabilities. This could turn out to be dangerous in a future disagreement. Remember US has successfully been able to penetrate many Armies in the world through these relationships and once entrenched these connections are difficult to dislodge as pakistan is discovering.

I know that you are a US citizen with probably more loyalty to US than to India but this is not the path that Indians should take to achive better status in the neghibourhood. Remember that US can harm India more than Pakistan has ever done without setting a single soilder in our country by sheer economic might.

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Attention all Indians!!!!!!!
arjun_m, Jay and rest..

Has it ever occurred to all of you what you accuse Pakistan of i-e Infiltration, but can not police yourself when it comes to interacting at CHOWK! It just amazes me how all of you can concentrate so much on Pakistan, you must want good for Pakistan deep down..... becasue people who despise something do not behave the way you guys behave.

Re: arjun_m # 52

You wrote, ``The BJP, which has been in power for the last 50 years...``

Please explain.

Ciao

ZafarA:

``the fact that the Shiv Sena is patriotic enough to kill people right here at home in India without going phoren (ie anywhere outside of Maharashtra) is hardly a selling point, na? ``

True Dat. But why is that Pakistan`s problem? I would have no problem with Jehadis if they killed thousands of non Muslims in their own country. They coming in to our country is our problem.

Reply Arjun_M #40

``The MMA and the jihadis cross borders and kill people. The SS can only name everything after shivaji....``

Yaar, the fact that the Shiv Sena is patriotic enough to kill people right here at home in India without going phoren (ie anywhere outside of Maharashtra) is hardly a selling point, na?

ASYMETRIC DEATHS,

The fools will always hope that there will be peace between indian and pakistan. There is no chance as long as the asymetric death response continues. Several thaousand pakistanis have died in afghanistan to support the strategic depth notion. No one, not even the ducated ever talk of these pakistani deaths. The parents and next to kin of the dead of pakistan never talk about the dead. The same is true for the pakistanis killed in kashmir.

For the pakistanis the dead have gone to heaven, they are the lucky ones, and the so called charity organisations of pakistan reward the next to kin, the only way they can make some money. There are reports of increasing beggers in all through pakistan, children and women of all ages, and for the pak govt sending to the so called heaven is a good option.

In india, most of the people in south especially know of pakistan, as yet another soldier is cremated in military nonours. The indians, dead any where is a source of sorrow, there is a social response and a political reaction. In india people are killed. In pakistan the thousands who get killed do not count, they are the un-countables of pakistan.

This is the funda,mental problem. Ask even an educated pakistani like tahmed, ask him does he care a damn for the dead pakistanis, and his only retort will be, how many kafirs did the great jihadist kill. This asymetry in death will never go away and as such there could be no peace.

The entire pak society accepts the notion of the un-countables.

An enlightening piece in Daily Times, Lahore

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-5-2003_pg3_5

Second opinion: Now let us all hate the Ahmedis

Khaled Ahmed’s Urdu Press Review

The clergy in Pakistan has thanked the Government in Islamabad for not allowing the body of the deceased exiled leader of the Ahmedi community to be buried in Pakistan. If this is true, it goes beyond even General Zia’s martial law order number 20

There are all kinds of ways nations try to keep together. It is good to hang on to something positive that knits people together. But some unifying factors can be negative. Nationalisms can be built on positive as well as negative passions. Nations can gain identity on the basis of the memory of a victory; they can also acquire a collective label on the basis of the memory of a defeat. Nations can be made on the basis of love; they can equally be made on the basis of hatred. Nations can be formed by including people in the nation state; they can also be formed by excluding people from the nation state. There is something primordial and sanguinary in all this which must remain a death-wish mystery.

According to daily Pakistan (22 April 2003) a lot of ulema in Pakistan have objected to MQM chief Altaf Hussain calling the late Qadiani leader Mirza Tahir a marhoom (deceased). The ulema said that calling a kafir marhoom and praying for him was an act of apostasy. They said those who pronounced a kafir marhoom without knowing the subtleties of the issue were sinners but those who did so knowingly were apostates themselves. The newspaper said that many people rang up to protest. The clerics in Pakistan asked the government not to allow the dead body of Mirza Tahir to be brought to Pakistan for burial. Khabrain reported that the most anti-Ahmedi cleric Maulana Chinioti thanked the government for refusing permission for Mirza Tahir’s burial in Pakistan. According to Khabrain, Maulana Abdul Hafeez Makki said in Chiniot that the UK was an old imperialist state which gave facilities for the funeral of Mirza Tahir. He said he would pursue the case of blasphemy against the Quran by the new Ahmedi leader Mirza Masroor and bring him to justice. According to Nawa-e-Waqt, after the demise of Mirza Tahir Ahmad, his cousin Mirza Masroor Ahmad was chosen by an international Ahmedi committee to be the next caliph of the community. Mirza Masroor was holding the senior-most office of the jamaat at Chenab Nagar (Rabwah) from where he flew out to London to attend the election ceremony. He is the son of Mirza Mansoor Ahmad who was a grandson of the founder of the community. Masroor is a nephew of late M.M. Ahmad.

Many religious leaders in Pakistan have earned their spurs leading the anti-Ahmedi campaign. It is a pre-1947 phenomenon and flourishes on the basis of a collective passion. On 1 May 2003, MMA’s Hafiz Hussain Ahmad said on GEO TV that accepting the LFO would mean making it possible for someone in power to rescind the anti-Qadiani amendment in the Constitution. The Blasphemy Law was made expressly to target the Ahmedis but was unfortunately used against the Christians too. Other non-Muslims have also been targeted and remain prospective victims. The disabilities placed on the Ahmedis under General Zia’s martial law order number 20 are in force under the 8th Amendment. According to the above report, Pakistan government has disallowed the burial of Mirza Tahir in Pakistan, which may not be a strictly lawful course but indicates how scared Islamabad is. Even General Musharraf’s joint electorate was not extended to the Ahmedis. Maulana Abdul Hafeez Makki’s diatribe against the United Kingdom for allowing burial to Mirza Tahir is pointless in the face of the evidence that our clerics think otherwise as they flock to “imperialist” Britain. The Ahmedis may be a bad lot but Pakistan is giving itself a bad global image through the shenanigans of its courts trying to stop the Qadianis from saying “kalima” and calling their places of worship mosques. Every year a fat record of events is put out telling the world how horribly Pakistan behaves towards the Ahmedi community. It must however be said in all fairness that the Urdu press does not go crazy printing inflammatory material against this luckless minority.

Daily Pakistan (24 April 2003) reported that the government had taken serious note of Lashkar-e-Tayba chief Hafiz Saeed’s statements against America and violent language used in regard to Kashmir and had asked him to use restraint but that he had rejected the advice. Hafiz Saeed said that UN inspectors visiting Pakistan to inspect an installation were CIA men who would fix electronic chips on Pakistan’s sensitive parts and then use satellites to bomb these sensitive parts. Daily Nawa-e-Waqt reported that Hafiz Saeed stated that Foreign minister Kasuri was following American dictation whereas the only way to go was look the Americans in the eye and do jehad against them.

Hafiz Saeed is Pakistan’s hazard number one in foreign policy. One will have to see what Islamabad does about him after deciding to take action against militias with changed names. Hafiz Saeed should not have accused he UN inspectors under the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) of being CIA agents. It was his duty as a responsible Pakistani to read the text of the CWC which Pakistan signed in 1992 and abides by together with almost the entire international community in the United Nations. Even if he thought that he could not read the treaty he should have abstained from ridiculously suggesting that the UN inspectors would booby-trap Pakistan’s security installations. He should abstain from bragging about jihad because that is not the Islamic way.

A detailed article published in daily Pakistan (17 April 2003) explained how Prophet PBUH had predicted the coming of One-Eyed Dajjal. He would come from the east of the house of Islam (possibly meaning India) and would claim prophethood and godhead. He would possess great stores of food and would control rain, turn people blind and restore eyesight and turn the dead to living. He would be like Christ in his miraculous powers but he would ride a donkey the distance between whose ears would be forty hands (wide-bodied aircraft?) and “kfr” would be written between his eyes. (Israel has named a plane made by it as “kfr”. The paper has got the name of the plane, Kfir, wrong). Dajjal would first attract Muslim women then Muslim men and the Prophet PBUH predicted that a large part of the Muslim “umma” would convert in favour of Dajjal and would become very rich. Dajjal would be of wheatish complexion with curly hair without sight in his left eye. Dajjal would be able to go to all places in the world except Madina. Outside Madina he would be challenged by a virtuous man, but Dajjal would tear him into pieces only to make him alive again. But the pious man will deny Dajjal and will not be defeated by him. No one but Christ himself would kill Dajjal near the door of “Ldd” (This is a place called Lydde near Tel Aviv).

The prediction of Dajjal is like the prediction of Antichrist in the New Testament “Book of Revelation”, complete with the Apocalypse and Times of Tribulation, followed by the Second Coming.

``About 5000 students of over 80 local bodies` schools, formerly known as KMC schools, in Landhi, cannot get their books as the DOE concerned doesn`t have them.

Nearly a week ago, the local bodies schools` officer informed the EDO office that in view of the present enrolment in LB schools he needed about 10,000 sets more of the books that should be provided at the earliest. `` from dawn of today.

///There are no teachers in schools and where there are teachers, there are no books. Now once again tahmeds can say why pak students are going to the madrassas. Well, these students can be given, the book, if even a page is torn from it it is death in pakistan. There should be a lot of this indistructible books in pakistan, and here is another reason for the 200000 madrassas to flourish. Ask tahmed about it.

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