The Beginning of the End of the Kashmir Problem

Dear dostmittarji:
Since this is an optimist`s roadmap, hum oopar hawaa mein udhney taiyyar hai :) But don`t you think these are sentiments that have been voiced ever so often? Have there been results? No. In future all three countries -- India, Pakistan and Kashmir (yes!) -- will have to learn to mind their own business. Your logical and reasoned arguments sound good, but the emotional reality is different.

Ansari (#14,15):
Wah-wah, adaab arz hai...yahaan peace in the subcontinent ki baat chal rahee hai, aur aap ko eik bhi bandaa hamare-aapke gulistan mein nahin nazar aaya apney jazbaat ko izhaar karne ke liye? Woh foreign hand le aaye yahan par bhi...khair Audenji aur Seamus-ji ne khoob kahee...magar kabhi iss taraf bhi nazar daaliye... hamare bhi khadey hai raahon mein!

Reply Stuka #30

``Agreed. The problem is that Mush and MMA fighting each other is basically two extremists fighting each other. How does it matter to us which extremist ends up ruling Pakistan?``

Musharraf is not an extremist, IMO, he is a opportunist who is taking a ride on anti-hunood sentiment re: Kashmir etc. (I could be wrong, anybody please feel free to correct. Note: I think that he actually is a patriotic opportunist, but not an extremist.)

MMA actually means it, yaar. So harder for us (and Pakistanis) to cope with. There is less likely to be a climb down accompanied with appropriate justification.

Reply pmishra2 #31

``Either this FIR is very important and your goverment should proceed further with it (Why doesn`t it? Why sit on it for 50 years? Is the FIR getting more and more interesting?).``

Kee bhalo. I nearly fell out of my chair. And yes, actually who knows what what is now on this FIR? I`d like to state, however, that I firmly believe whatever is on this FIR because LK Advani is completely capable of being a back street abortionist, chicken fancier or black magic etc. the FIR contains.

To all my Pakistani bhais/behains on chowk: the reason that the Agra summits failure was such a`great disappointment to many of us in India is that we had hoped, with peace and relaxed visa regime, Advani Sahib could finally go back where he came from. If you are willing to take him without peace etc. we are not only eternally grateful, we might even let you have K...

Reply harish #52

``I for one am extremely pessimistic about accounts emanating from Pakistan which speak about an “overwhelming majority” of Pakistanis wanting peace with India.``

I`m afraid I agree. They and we both want peace, but envisage it differently. Certainly we see getting there in different ways.

dost-mittar,

this is one of the best articles on the Kashmir problem to

appear on CHOWK. Let us all inch towards dialogue and let the final

shape or form of the LOC remain vague till the very end.

Ras

#55 ahmadzai

I can see that you fully committed to your silly diversionary question about this non-entity Advani. Let me also ask you a similar question:

If I asked you to stop, would you stop beating your wife and children?

Please answer me. This is a very important question. Don`t try to avoid answering it. You have been ignoring this important question in all of our discussion.

ahmadzai #55

If the case against Mr Advani predates partition then he would definitely not be handed over. Otherwise the case details would decide whether he needs to be handed over or not. Also India is avoiding the govt to govt talks because of Pakistan`s sponsoring of terror and even if we talk then Pakistan`s refusal to talk ``businessmen to businessmen`` because of it`s insistence that Kashmir first and rest later.
That`s no confidence builder let me tell you.

stuka at # 41:

You wrote:
``Mr Ahmadzai, your government is not as dumb as you....``

Why are you eschewing from answering my straight forward question, which is, if Pakistan asked for Advani, would you hand him over or not? If my Urdu / Hindi were good, I would have asked you the same question in those languages to ease the matters for you :)

Believe me your Government is as dumb as you, if not dumber, for asking Ibrahim under the current state of affairs ;)

I have noticed that lot of other Indian friends are also struggling with their IQ level to get into positive digits, but I want only a yes or no answer. Hint to solving the problem: India has been avoiding any Government to Government, people to people, businessmen to businessmen level talks with Pakistan (like the former communist countries used to do against the free world). Furthermore, it had amassed 1 million of its troops on Pakistani borders, had applied sanctions against flights, and had threatened of scrapping Sindh-Tass Water Agreement.

;)

Nand Uncle,

Aside from laying out the roadmap, it`s real crucial that we request both sides to behave in a civilized manner. Well, what purpose will be served by having a roadmap when the parties involved do not even know how to communicate with each other ? Having a chapqalash between two parties is one thing but broadcasting it to the rest of the world is in no way prudent.

Rest Later,

Nand Uncle,

On another note, the most important aspect will be to have cordial relationship leading towards common projects around infrastructure improvement, securing more business from the outside world and etc etc...that way atleast any new call center projects India is taking on would be/should be shared with Pakistan.

The plan should flow as follows:
- Indians will secure the business since they have an established presence in the offshore development arena.
- Indians will recruit the Pakistani Call Center Reps since the Indian Call Center Reps have been providing a below average service on various ends. I speak from personal experiene on various instances, i.e. HP, Amex, Store Cards...
- The profits should be shared with mutual agreement

And then I woke up...

Rest Later,

Dissecting South Asia on basis of religion has not proved to be a good idea. Put bluntly, partition was a mistake.

For now, India and Pakistan should simply get closer.

The momemtum thus created will automatically resolve the Kashmir issue to the best interest of the Kashmiris.

#19 by ZafarA on May 14, 2003 7:54am PT

Zafar Bhai,

[I think you are a bit sanguine about the nukes, but even then...]

There has been only one instance when nukes were used. During WW2. At the heights of the cold war, during the Bay of Pigs crisis in the sixties, the USSR and US came close to another, but it never happened. It is not going to easy to use nukes for any country, let alone Pakistan and India. While others have been arguing that geographical contiguity is a disadvantage, I feel it is a blessing. Whereas in the case of the USSR and US, it was some 20-odd minutes of flying time, between India and Pakistan, it is less than 3-or-so minutes. The consequences of a nuclear explosion would be so widespread that the country that caused it will itself not escape from the attendant consequences. In effect, it would be nuking itself. So, as much as we accuse Pakistan of irresponsibility, it is not foolish enough not to have imagined the consequences to it’s own masses. Much of the Pakistani threats of ``unconventional`` war is mere saber-rattling and posturing. As I said in my previous post, nukes are good for posturing alone.

[And who are these rivals and enemies?]

Whether democratic or dictatorial, moderate or extremist, the Pakistani psyche has unfortunately been conditioned to hate India, and to a lesser extent vice-versa. After all, how many Pakistanis, apart from the Western-educated Tahmeds and Sameerjbs and those with relatives in India, really desire peace with India? Very few. I for one am extremely pessimistic about accounts emanating from Pakistan which speak about an “overwhelming majority” of Pakistanis wanting peace with India. Peace has been attempted in the past. Almost every 5-7 years, leaders of both countries have tried to talk peace, but it has not amounted to anything. It’s true that voices have been heard in Pakistan blaming the Jihad in Kashmir for the country’s economic woes, but not enough to bring about a complete revolution in a thinking process that has been conditioned to blame India for all its ills. Whatever attempts are being made, are being made because of US threats. This is unlikely to lead anywhere because the moment Pakistan’s economic situation picks up, it will be back to its usual mischief.

ahmadzai #27

``An FIR against Advani is lying registered in a police station in Sindh, Pakistan. If Pakistan asks India to hand him over to it, would India allow that under current level of hostility or even otherwise under peace even under an agreement of extradition?``

The Advani FIR is a joke. What was the FIR doing for 50 years ?

Frankly, you can have this loser Advani. Why don`t you ask for him? If it was in my power I would willingly deliver him to Islamabad or Muridke. He is a loser demagogue with all the creative vision of a dull mushroom.

One thing you Pakis have to get thru your heads is that in a democracy, these people are just politicians, not some great symbols of india. The symbols of india are its institutions and its people. These netas are available at 2 dozen for five rupees. They play their role and are just one part of the overall system.

His``Excellency`` #42

I can see that now you are completely delirious. Yes, definitely india has sponsored all kinds of insurgencies within Pakistan. No doubt about it. Certainly, I can clearly see that one appears to raging fiercely within your mind.

Also, don`t forget that there were some commas missing from the indian document demanding extradition. How could Pakistan respond to a document full of bad grammar? You forgot to mention this important point. It would have clinched your case.

re: #18 by harish_hyd

++
The way things are going, it`s going to be difficult for India to resist the urge to attack Pakistan and settle the vexed issue of cross-border terrorism once and for all.
++

Richard Armitage contradicted this impression last year when he watned Advani that hot pursuit into PoK will actually aggravate the cross-border terrorism in India.

Militancy against Indian targets will increase just like in West Bank and Gaza after Israeli invasion. At present, the international border separates Pakistanis and Indians south of Kashmir. And the LoC separates them in Kashmir. In the aftermath of an attack, these barriers will collapse. A surge in nationalism will result in the general Pakistani population filling the ranks of Jihadi organizations. There will be an increase in suicide-bombings, stakeouts and guerilla warfare against Indian targets.

Remember: Israelis suffered more deaths during the 2 years of presence in Gaza and West Bank than during the previous 10 years of semi-autonomous Palestine and low-intensity clashes.

Kargil fiasco has already convinced Pakistanis against the military option. It is important that Indians also snap out of their delusions. Military solutions work only when there is an asymmetry of power e.g. Israelis vs Palestinians, US vs Afghanistanis, and US vs Iraqis. Such asymmetry does not exist in the India-Pakistan standoff. Militancy and human right violations in Kashmir can only be addressed through talks. The sooner we grasp this, the better.



India is not Israel, and Pakistan is no P

Your comment
“Their misfortunes started when an unruly horde of tribal lashkars backed by a number of un-uniformed soldiers disturbed the peace in the valley and tried to force the merger of the state with Pakistan. Since then, they have been used as toys by Indians, Pakistanis as well as their own leaders”

Response
I do not agree. Without a support internally, it is impossible for any foreigner to disturb peace for a long time and at the scale that India has to deploy more then half a million army. “horde of lashkars” definitely have gone to fight a war in Indian controlled Kashmir but they cannot last without Kashmiri support.


Your Comment
“According to the world bank estimates, Pakistan’s per capita PPP (purchasing power parity) income in 1990, i.e., before the start of Pakistan’s support of the insurgents in Kashmir, was $1862 while that of India was $1072, in other words 74% higher; the same figures for 2001 were $1920 and $2450, i.e., 28% lower. The difference in the growth rates in the two countries may not be wholly attributable to the Pakistani support for cross-border jihadis but it would be a brave soul who would deny any direct or indirect causality between the two.”

Response
I do not think sopport in Kashmir is a big burden for Pakland. It was the atum bum explosion and super corrupt BB that caused the economic problem. How come Pakland reserves are increasing now? I am sure Kashmir support is still there. And I am sure once CIA fact book shows the 2002 GDP for Pakistan it is again going to be more than India. CIA factbook still shows GDP of 2001 for Pakistan while for India it shows 2002 GDP.


Your comment
“The U.S also views India as a willing partner to contain China, its potential long-run adversary and to control the strategic sea-lanes of the Indian ocean”

“For this reason, India and China are moving closer to each other because of their growing trade relationship ($4 billion annually) and a shared distrust for a unipolar world.”

Response
Contradiction. Read the two sentences together. What is India trying to do here. Become an American partner and contain China or increase business with China? I guess both the conditions are mutually exclusive. India can do one at a time.


I like your road map to peace. This should be a good starting point. India’s decision to resume Cricket and Hockey games with Pakistan is a definite plus. Similarly Vajpayee’s decision to finally break the ice and start talking on all the issues is like a breath of fresh air. I guess both India and Pakistan are finally achieving adulthood and just started to make rational decisions.