Women in Religious Scriptures

ali78 #159
``There fore you have people who burn widows on a pyre as mehtod of worship``

``Child and humuan sacrifices also part of religon (which still happen) as are the tantrics (shown on STAR TV) who eat flesh of dead humuans from the pyres and who belive that having intercourse with fully drunk women during their menustral periods as energy giving``

After a lifetime of living among Hindus, you have to be a very sick person to imply that these are normal practices among Hindus. Just who are you trying to fool here?

#168 by sattar2 on May 29, 2003 1:49pm PT

thanks for the info.

I can see why most muslims would have problem with the ahmedis. It is the issue of prophethood. It is commonly understood that Prophet Mohammed is the last of the prophets ie the seal of Prophets. I wonder if many question why did it take nearly 1200 years for the Ahamedi belif to come about? why not earlier?
Perhaps looking at english semantics(not a good choice though) a Prophet brings about prophecies not meerly guide people back to the right path which can be done by a Imam, Leader etc. So if a prophet has no relevance as far as new prohpecies(even despite ample evideicence in the quran in my opinion) are concerned why call him a prophet and bring about ire of rest of muslims.
At the same time I think those who presequte the ahemedis should think again. Rule of law and fairness is to be upheld at all times. If the ahmedis belive in the Quran its finality as far as laws etc in Prophet mohammed and as long as who ever they call the new prophet does not call for anything else other than the accepted Quranic laws It would not be a big problem. On the other hand if we are not able to convince people who beleive most of what other muslims belive to abandon their extra ammendments which in any case seem not too big then it tells a lot of the present capabilites of Muslims.
Sattar what is your view about the posibillity of the British encuraging a split between muslims to during the british rule considering that the ahmedi movement came into being very late? Im asking you to only consider the posibillity not accept it.

Tahmed Sahib,

And you think that your in-your-face, only-I-got-it-right style, culminating in declaring all others as non-Muslims … is going to fix the problem of the ummah? Please tell me you are not serious …

I have always maintained that Ahmadi-Muslims belief is based on Quran. But somehow you are not satisfied until I start practicing Islam according to YOUR viewpoint. This is why I stated earlier that you are blind-sided by narrowness of your own interpretation of Quran … and that Sahib … you ARE the problem.

And don’t tell me about your battles with Zia … my community and family fought the worst of them … and came out ahead despite violent opposition. And we did not do it by getting in the faces of others and telling them they are non-Muslims … but by spreading the teachings of Islam in a peaceful and compassionate manner … countering violence and persecution with “duas” and prayers … and humbling ourselves in front of the Almighty ...

And who says that Ahmadis take away from individual to right to understand Quran? Last time I discussed Islam with you, you could not provide basis for some of your fundamental beliefs on prophethood. All the reasons you gave, I countered from Quran! In response, you hurled abuses at Ahmadis … and left the board. I sincerely hope this is not how you plan to fix the problems of the ummah.

As for hamidm … if you read my post carefully … you’ll see that I am only ascribing to him what he projects himself as on Chowk. Not that I have a problem with what he does. On the other hand … you keep harping about Ahmadis worshipping humans … which is a baseless, incorrect charge that you should be ashamed of.

Furthermore on hamidm … my point, which you seem to have missed … is that his lack of interest in debating who is and who is not a Muslim … is one the highest virtues which seems to have escaped holier-than-thou hypocrites like you. First, deal with your own inadequacies … then try to sort out the problems of the ummah.

Sameer …

You are one hell of a dude … my heart goes out to you. I find your post touching and humbling … and I wish I could help ease your pain.

We are all sinners in some shape and form … we all make mistakes. It is not up to me to hold a grudge against anyone … for I would be ungrateful to Allah if I did. Heck, as far as I am concerned … you are a-ok. All I can say is for you to search for peace for within yourself … and try to make amends that you see fit. Do good to others … and if you believe in a higher being, pray to him and seek peace and reconciliation. God that I believe in … is merciful and compassionate … and I hope and pray he heeds your call.

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Roshan #161:

The sentence you asked about is not a quotation. It nevertheless is a conclusion of all restrictions on women recommended in Qur`an and imposed by Muslim men.

ali87 #159

I think you should try to write an article for chowk on the same lines. I think a little tweaking of this post may also work.

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Ali …

In a nut-shell … Ahmadis are Muslims who believe in Allah, Quran, Prophet Mohammad … and so on. They subscribe to articles of Islamic faith as outlined in Quran, pray 5 times a day (fajr, zohar, asr …), pay “zakat” and spend in the way of Allah, fast during ramzan, and perform haj.

They differ from mainstream Muslims in that … they believe Mirza Sahib of Qadian (1835-1908) is the promised Messiah and the Imam Mahdi of the age. They believe that Prophet Issa (Jesus Christ) passed away his natural death around 2,000 years ago, was not lifted to the skies, and will not return to earth. The ahadith regarding the return of Issa refer to a prophet of Allah who will come in spirit of Issa … and will bring the people back to the message of Quran.

Ahmadi-Muslims believe that Quran is the complete law from God … brought by Prophet Mohammed … but Allah will continue to raise prophets from time to time for guidance of mankind as people go astray. This view is supported from Quran … according to Ahmadi interpretation of Quran. This is similar to … Allah earlier raising prophets to guide Israelites who were given Torah by Moses … but needed guidance from time to time. These prophets did not bring a new law … but only brought people back to the message of Torah.

Views of Ahmadis have caused much uproar in the Muslim community worldwide … and resulted in much persecution. And the rest is history.

Check www.alislam.org for details. Under the LIBRARY heading, the ARTICLES menu has more information.

Tahmed …

And yes … Torah was also made easy … but prophets were sent for guidance nevertheless. So, what’s your point about Quran being made easy?

And … Quran says it is made easy … agreed. Quran also says 100 lashes for adulterers. But you cannot accept this basic commandment. You pick and define Quran the way it suits you.

And everyone else is a bleeding kaffir. Go figure!

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Zahra/SaminaShah:

Here are a few books on the topic you might wanna check out:

1. Rabia The Mystic --by Margaret Smith
2. The Tao of Islam -- Suchiko Murata ( must read)
3. Early Sufi Women -- as-Sulami (trans. from the classical Arabic)
4. Sufis of Andalusia --Ibn Arabi--(contains biographies of many of the great Shaykhs teachers; a lot of whom were women).

also this site is fairly good : http://www.islamicgarden.com/page1053.html

ZahraJ...try also to look up the life of the daughter of the great Mughal emperor of India Hazrat Aurangzeb Alamgir who is called Zeb-un-Nisa.
She was famous in her time as an islamic scholar.

#rsridhar
Sure there are rabid mullahs every where just as there are rabid brammins, pandits, sadhus etc.

If my experience is right (now you are not going to belive this)I have attended prayers in Mosques in Hyderabad, Chennai, Bangalore, and many other cities all my life usually rabid mullahs are disliked by ordinary muslims and many times ignored by muslims and often not invited or barred from giving political qutabhas or inciting Quthbas(ie friday sermons) I myself have seen at least a dozen such Mullahs being quitely given the boot by masjid authorities in the last decade or so.
but you wouldnt know of this.

On the tactics adopted by hindus on chowk I was not refering to the hindutvavadis in India. I clearly mentioned that the hindus on chowk adopt the postion of chirstain zealots of US meaning that they have the hate but no first hand information about muslims and choose to follow the stance and use the arguments of US christan zealots many times such arguments or stands would simply not be taken in india because the misinformation about Islam is less prevailant there and also some of the paractices critized by the Christian zealots are quite common in India in both Hindus as well as Muslims so it is funny to see inept hindus using those as basis of criticizim of Islam and muslims while the hindus themselves follow many of these practices.

As regarding the finding of christians of how hinduism is so close to Hinduism and Buddhism and your quoting an obscure saying of Jesus to prove that christianity accepts the presense of other gods or intermediatirs. as regards to the concept of trinity (as apposed to just the god and son which you have mentioned) you can look up many muslim websites on thier analysis of this vis a vi the concept of monothesiem.

on the matter of chirstians adopting hindu pratices you dont need to be too hopeful. They even do the same in Muslim countries have muslim names, pretend respect for the Quran and even going to the extent of observing Ramzan etc. You can look up many christian sites on the web where they have detailed the theological and practical reasons for practicing this deciet.

I would any day take up the way of Prophet Mohammed where he wrote to the various emperors of his time conveying his misson and the message of Islam in clear equivocal terms.

There are just as many pressure groups in Hinduism as there are in Islam in case you have forgetten the centuries old rivalry between Shiavist and Vishnavists which lead to much blood shed and voilent reprisals and conter reprisals between these groups for quite a bit of time until it was stopped a few decades back. Go to chennai and ask any old brahamin about it and he will tell you in detail about the turf wars between the two main hindu groups.

In Islam there is real beauty and surely no compulsion some thing quite forgotten by many muslims. While the freedom or approach to god kind of utopia is many times quoted by hindus it simply forgets that most hindus would not even be able to define the basic percepts of hindu religion or even agree with each other on it except to mouth the so called freedom of worship in any form and manner. There fore you have people who burn widows on a pyre as mehtod of worship Bhramins who treat other people as inhuman as part of their religion, women selling their body as part of structured part of a so called unstuructured religon. Child and humuan sacrifices also part of religon (which still happen) as are the tantrics (shown on STAR TV) who eat flesh of dead humuans from the pyres and who belive that having intercourse with fully drunk women during their menustral periods as energy giving.
Or just plain old Bhramins keeping aside a seperate glass for water and tea when I go their homes. Of bhramins who throw food from a certain height in marriages for fear of contaminationg the spoon and vessel while their own sweat drips from their naked upper bodies into the food all this can be commonly observed in India even now. Of man brahamins in bangalroe as well as chennai eating bread from Iyengar bakeries or food from bhramin resturants only. in Feb I met a sanskrit pandit and school teacher who does not eat any food except which is prepared at home or marriages not even bhramin hotels.
In mysore and bangalore there are thousands of homes which still have a ``dodda adige manae and chinna adige manae `` ( main kitchen and smaller kitchen) thje main kitchen was where the martirach prepared the food early in the mornign and then transferred it to the smaller kitchen while keeping the main kitchen under lock and key for fear of contamination of the cooking vessels. Or have you forgetten the ``madi`` room tales of which many women in their fiftes and sixtes will tell you . This is the palce where the woman was banished to when she had her periods where she was given food in a thali crudely showed under the door of this hut or room at the back of the house.

the beauty of the sanatam dharma was at least not visible to the Iyer Bhrahimin ex colonel whom I met in feburary who annouced to me that Islam is the most logical of all religons and if Muslims were setting a better example then the whole world would become Muslim.

And certainly the beauty of Islam was apreciated by quite a few brahamins in bangalore chennai and Mysore this month. One of my relatives has married a girl who has Hindu parents on death of her father they decided to dispose of the property and hand over the cash to her mother. A famous chennai lawyer and their relative gave ominous news that there may be problems since the girl has converted to Islam and Islamic law is very restrictive and the girl has little right to give away her property or money. However despite that a buyer was found who paid advance and last week he just got cold feet when his lawyer too gave the same advice saying that there could be trouble as most of these learned people belived that Islamic law was unfair to women and a relic of centuries old belif of suppression of women while the progressive hindu law had modernised and gave freedom to the women as regards to property. When this came to my notice asking for clarifiactions I gave them the news that property/money/ wealth owned / earned / Inheritied/ gifted to woman who is Muslim is her sole property and no one many have any claim or say in what she wishes to do with it as long it is legal.
First I was met with disbelif then they confirmed with a Bhramin lawyer who deals in Muslim Law then they confirmed it with my father later on in a family converastion I was asked when did the Muslim law change or when did it Modernise I replied it has been a little more than 1400 years since changes came into effect. I have been asked later on by at least two of the people involved that howcome that they were not told this fact about Islam on which I relpied that muslims continualy claim that Islamic laws are fair and quite modern and this is claimed by muslims many times in the press only most choose not to pay attention to it.

you seem to be happy with Hinduism and what you think is its freedom may be you are capapble of using this freedom properly most people on the other had need proper groundrules as to what is right and what is wrong. Practically there is a need for a set of rules which while not being oppressive are open as well as logical and sutied for humuan needs. As many common hindu practices I have mentioned above went beyond what was right to a great extent and many people like you now do not follow this kind of practices now so you can see the harm that has been caused for centuries by these practices.

While Islam lays down broad directions of law and socitey It is left to the muslims to interepet those directions and laws to respond to contemporay challenges. It lays down the procribed method of worship which as many of my Hindu and christians friends have noted are a great method (ritual) where humuans can practice the tenets of the religion like deference to a higher authority as evidenced in the ritual of prayer, the chance to remember and reinforce the basic equality of all men which gets a regular chance to practice in the daily salat. Often many of my non muslim friends have also pointed to the quite orderliness and cleanliness and simplicity of the dress of muslims during the firday prayers as some thing very uplifting and serene.
While the rituals of worhsip are required of every one there is very little force on it except moral force and some times sociteal force in enforcing it. Islam also provides for differnt interpration and even differences to coexist which are evidenced by the same level of freedom given to all the 4 sunni schools of thought which differ to some extent in the Prayer methods and some laws and even with the Shias with whom many sunnis profess hostility there is no restriction on them in preforming the Haj and other necessary religious rites even in Saudi Arabia.

If you are satisfied with the santatam dharma it is your choice and if you think that Islam is restrective then I would Invite you to study Islam more deeply than what you know. It is pretty easy go to the right sources there are no preists in Islam nor will any one (except the most crude uneducated and unclutured muslims) try to impose one view or the other on you. All your requests for Information will be met with respect and I can assure there will be no pressure to convert if you want to gain knowledge about Islam. Who knows you may find it more to your liking than you belive now.
A good place to start will be www.islamicity.com

#152 by Paigham on May 29, 2003 5:55am PT

your piagham is that people who reject the relgion which the profess to adopt another religon which they belive is logical should continue to revere and idolise the belives they previously held??

then what is the reason to convert? If it isnot a rejection of their previous belives then what is the puropse of conversion?

the most charitable thing I can say that your paigham is one of confusion.

YOu say that muslims hate Hindus and their own ancessostors. How come even after 1000 years of Muslim rule this hate did not translate into elemination of hindus who number a healthy 800 millon upwards?

why would any one justify every thing that his ancesstor has done even if it is wrong? suppose my ancesstor was a robber you will want me to love him for that? May be people like you feel that you are obligated to glorify whatever their ancesstors did. It is called ancesstor worship which is illogical to a Muslim. Which can be probably explain why so many tribes whose sole professions have remained varously robberry, prostitution etc all in the name of following tradition ie their ancesstors.

Muslims reject this notion which is should mean they hate their ancesstors as per you strange method to test ones love. If you love me love every thing that I do. Reminds me something western child physcologicst say of children, ie some children offer their own shit to their parents as a token of their love!!

Please dont expect any recprocitaion of this crazy love from muslims.

The discussions that have ensued the posting of issues remind me of a ghazal:

Justaju jis ki thii usko to na payaa hamne,
Is bahane se magar dekh li duniya hamne.

I had hoped that the discussion will bring about a dispassionate discussion of various protagonists. But obviously, this was chowk, not a hallowed hall of a University. For record though, I did place the thesis on University Avenue. The intensity of the discussion was probably anticipated by one of the administrators of the Chowk and probably feared! The thesis was initially rejected from getting posted but upon reconsideration it was finally posted.

Overall, I thank all of the participants for unhesitatingly expressing their opinions irrespective of the opposition fire!! That has its own enjoyment!!!

I am from India and a Hindu. My Hindu friends told me – and no doubt will continue telling me – that all Pakistanis (=Muslims) are monolithic in opposition to India and Hindus and, furthermore, they practice an identical form of anti-Hindu Islam. My biggest gain from this interaction is the confirmation that I was correct in not subscribing to their view. Browsing through gulberg articles, I discovered (a) My little bit of Hindu by Ali A, (284 responses) and (b) A Pakistani School’s Visit to India by Alia Amirali, (1050 responses). It might even be worthwhile for the veterans at gulberg and Chowk to revisit these discussions. My biggest unfulfilled expectation is that Hindu and Christian and Jew Chowkies have so far failed to provide information and views on their own scriptures.

From the interactions on the thesis I have found that (a) there are caste systems in Islam, so sociologically, Hindus and Muslims share the problem of bringing egalitarianism among their adherents. Tamhed 32 and Honorable_Syed’s interaction (b) ZahraJ and Saminasha understood the thrust of the thesis best and they might pursue it further. This is important since they can be guessed to be Muslim women. (c) There is a need for synthesis on views of the optimism of Tahmed 32 and pessimism of Hamidm2. Modern population of Indians and Pakistanis growing up in West – and hence free from the brain washing will be more like hamidm2 but they need to be a little more hopeful of the redeeming features of the scriptures. We need to sift the scriptures, all scriptures. This not entirely a new challenge for any religion. But we NEED to support and evolve human beings who would separate the husk of the religions from the corn.

Once again, I have felt privileged to be exposed to the various view points and hope that more constructive, accommodating and –cool – interactions will continue.