Women in Religious Scriptures

re:#153 by Honorable_Syed
You have placed a most stupid argument i have seen so far in chowk. So, what you are saying is that only 30% of muslims of subcontinent are real converts and the rest are Arabs, Turks and what not. You need to give us proof of what you are saying.
Anyway, now-a-days, an interesting study is being conducted to sort out the ethnicity of various groups worldwide. It uses various DNA analysis and other methodologies. Particular emphasis is on mitochondrial DNA, which is transmitted from mother to progeny without fail (100% transmission on a non-mendelian basis).

www.iisc.ernet.in/~academy/jbiosci/nov2001/533.pdf

Studies conducted among muslims in India show a large overlap of DNA imprints among hindus and muslims of varous castes in India. So, there has been a fair amount of genetic mixing going on for centuries. No study has been done in Pak (at least i am not aware of any) but i bet results would not be different.
Go to the following Url:
http://www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/~macer/chgp/chgp20.html
Excerpts:

1. ``Nuclear DNA: Data on restriction site polymorphisms in the beta-globin gene cluster are the most extensive from India. However, these data have been collected primarily to test whether there have been independent origins of the sickle-cell mutation. Individuals in these studies were not randomly selected from defined ethnic groups; the utility of these data for evolutionary studies may be limited. However, one interesting finding has been that the most frequent beta-globin restriction-site haplotype linked to the sickle-cell gene is the same one as that found in Saudi Arabia and vicinity. Therefore, this haplotype has been termed as the ``Arab-Indian`` haplotype (Flint et al., 1992). It has also been found (Labie et al., 1989; Majumder et al. -- unpublished) that chromosomes bearing the beta-S gene is linked to this ``Arab-Indian`` haplotype in over 90% of cases among tribal populations from diverse regions of India --- Nilgiris (southern India), Gujarat (western India), Orissa and Andhra Pradesh (eastern India). Data on other nuclear genomic markers from defined ethnic groups from India are still too scanty for any worthwhile summarization or synthesis.``

2. ``Since genes move with people, the entry of diverse genetic elements into India must be a major reason for the extraordinary biological diversity of contemporary Indian peoples. The finding of the ``Arab-Indian`` haplotype at the beta-globin gene cluster is a strong testimony to the movement of genes with peoples. Further, the fact (Labie et al., 1989; Majumder et al. -- unpublished) that over 90% of the sickle-cell mutation bearing chromosomes are linked to this haplotype in tribal populations from diverse regions of India is indicative of the possibility that either the sickle-cell mutation arose in a restricted geographical area of India (the site of the Indus valley civilization in the northwestern India-Pakistan border area that flourished about 5000 years ago is a strong candidate region) and subsequently spread to the Arabian region or it arose in Saudi Arabia and moved into India with the entry of the Arabs; the present-day Indian tribals originated from this ancestral population in which the sickle-cell mutation arose or into which this mutation was brought by the Arabs.``
Sridhar

re: #148 by ali87
``However one thing remains common is they all refuse to conduct an exhaustive comparitve analyiss of both the religions when challenged usually taking recourse to anger etc. to avoid indepth comparison.``

Today, above anybody else, it is the muslims who need to introspect and find out where their religion is going and if there is anything they can do about it.
I place Christian Zealots at par with rabid mullahs. I have no use of them and do not take any cues from them.
Christianity is nothing new to India. Legend has it that St. Thomas, one of the apostles, came to India in the year 62 A.D (or thereabout). Syrian Christians are the oldest surviving christians. Then came the portuguese who unleashed a wave of terror on Kerala and Goa. Their main problem was with the 2 million christians who inhabited these areas and who were considered heretics because they did not follow the teachings of Roman Catholic Church.
For a more complete info on early christians in India, go to:
http://www.indianembassy.org/new/NewDelhiPressFile/kerala_christianity.html
The recent problems encountered by Christianity has a lot to do with the unwarranted zeal of the christian missionaries who seem to think that it is their god-given right to convert. They have money, so they can buy poor souls, bribing them with all the good things in life. What they can never buy is loyalty. Now, they are changing tactics. Churches in India are adopting hindu practices of doing Arati and doing everything the hindu way thereby making a church more acceptable to people. It is not the church or the practices which are problematic. It is the practitioners. These missionaries are not realised souls. They are just highly energetic individuals who believe they have a mission. However, India cares only for realised souls, people who speak from personal experience of God and not quoting from Bible all the time and jumping up and down like jackasses while doing so.
The truth is that christianity in its present form acts like a corporate body. It does not inspire us who have a claim to a much greater spiritual heitage. Can you compare what they preach with the pristine beauty of ``Advaita``? As Yogananda said: it is churchianity and not christianity that we see in the West today. Jesus Christ was crucified once during his life time but his followers have crucified his teachings many times after his death.
Here is a comparison of Christianity versus Hinduism from an Indian christian:
http://www.sulekha.com/column.asp?cid=305819
Excerpts:
1. ``Christianity, as practiced by the West, has become insensitive to the emotional violence inflicted on the poorest of the poor when inducements such as free food, medical care, money, and employment are used as baits to engineer religious conversions....``

2. ``Being a liberal Christian and raised in a non-fundamentalist tradition, I am able to perceive little or no contradiction between the tenets of Jesus and many of the seminal concepts of Hinduism and Buddhism. The priceless affirmation in the Hindu scripture which says “eko sat vipra bahudi vedanti” (one truth, but discerned differently by the wise) is somewhat similar to one of Jesus` sayings, “in my Father`s house, there are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare one for you.[4b]” Another of Jesus` sayings which affirms that: “I and my Father are one”[4c] is similar to the Hindu Mahavakya, “Aham Brahmasmi” (I am Brahman). The “born again” attribute necessary for a Christian`s salvation as required by Jesus is no different from the concept of “dwija” or twice-born in Brahman (often misconstrued as Brahmin)[4d].``

The above statements from a christian from Kerala shows how christianity and hinduism co-existed peacefully. The christian zealots of today, flush with money and arrogance, would like to see India become a christian nation. Their arrogance comes out of ignorance of their own religion. Early christians (Gnostics) belived in the concept of duality of soul and body and that there was a divine spark in each individual. They believed in God-realisation by meditation. All these concepts were discarded once the authority of Church became paramount and individuals became just pawns. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hise.htm


The beauty of ``Sanatana Dharma`` (or Hinduism) is that individuals in this great religion still have a free choice. They are not bound by any rules or dogmas. No preacher can tell me what to do. I can go and seek God on my own term if i want to. I have scriptures and preachings of thousands of sages and seers to help me in that process.
Do not confuse the latest trend in Hindutva, which is a political process that has taken the hue of religious fervour for garnering votes. BJP can change its color like a Chamelion when seeking votes. Do not believe me? Go to the following Url:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=310142

Sridhar

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Msouza, you seem to be contradicting yourself when you say that the ancestors of the people of the subcontinent were hindus. Actually you contradict yourself in your post.
``They hate it inspite fo the fact that thier ancestors were hindus..although they added surname `khan` or syed with thier new names ``
Yet you say ``so those subcontinental muslims who deserted hinduism because they thought the new relgion of the INVADERS was better`` do you see the contradiction. Most historians agree that when the Mughals, Turks, Persians, Arabs, etc.. came to the subcontinent, they did not come as individuals, they brought with them soldiers, cooks, traders, workers, etc.. And recently I was studying a demographic study on the subcontinent, and the claim was that only 30 % of the Muslim population are converts, mostly lower caste Hindus. And this is an ongoing phenomenon in India, due to the subjugation and segregation amongst Hindu societies, many of the dalits are converting to either Christianity or Islam. A few months back, there was an incident somewhere in Tamil Nadu where a whole village reverted to Islam. I think the hindus have to stop lying to themselves by making such absurd and incorrect statements.

#131 by tahmed32 on May 27, 2003 9:19am PT

Despite Gujarat and numerous other incidents Indians(I assume that you mean hindus here) are not as rabid as the bunch you see here on chowk. These guys take cue from the chirstian zealots in US. I fact some of these guys when they intially start critizing Islam they usually use the same references and points that US chirstian zealots use and only later on with more interaction etc they become more sophisticated in their barbs and insults. However one thing remains common is they all refuse to conduct an exhaustive comparitve analyiss of both the religions when challenged usually taking recourse to anger etc. to avoid indepth comparison.

#128 by m_souza on May 27, 2003 6:52am PT

dont be so happy about this. This information is old hat. NOt many arabs are going to be too shocked about ``demon-possessed pedophile`` as except for ignorant americans and some westerners most socites in the world used to accept low marriage age as low as 12-15 just a few decades back Infact many arabs may have mothers or older female relatives who were married very young just as many hindus have know this just generation back in fact even present generation hindus in villages find nothing ethically wrong in marrying off young girls.

All those things mentioned in the article may scare the americans or misguide them more difficult to do that to most muslims. On the other had this kind of activity may even be good for Islam. Im sure quite a few of such people may acutally go on to learn the truth about Islam in their interaction with muslims.

Take the case of the charity worker who was in news for being rescued from taliban custody at the beggining of the war in afghanistan. One of the two women from UK has converted to Islam accepting it as the truth after she returned to UK and studied Islam after being courious about the faith of her captors and her relatively(better than expectation) treatment by her captors.

The roman catholic church in has a even more sophisticated programme going on for decades in Rome which avoids this kind of crude tricks to make people prolethysie. It Involves doctrorate level study of Islam and its books by hundreds of scholars. However its effect has been extreemly marginal.

even the current crisis since last two years instead of being adverse to Islam is actually being benifical to Islam (though in the short run muslims are feelin the burnt of of it) an increased awareness of Islam is seen everywhere not only that as time goes more and more proper information is being disseminated by the main stream media. On the other hand Muslims are becoming more religious due to all the pressure (not the other way round) and are studying and looking up to take up the challenge of misinformation by these agencies and the press. Also the need to put up a common front is being voiced more than ever (though not much is being done practically). Im sure more assaults will take place on the Image of Islam and Muslims which will only serve to strengthen them and bring them together.
In US muslims who used to think themselves as secualr or detached are now flocking to the mosques and many are rediscovering religion.

So dont rejoice as yet.

#143 by sattar2 on May 28, 2003 12:35pm PT

Ahem... a bit late and being ignorant(and thus left out) what exactly are the Ahmedi belifs and what is the gripe (or propoganda) of the rest of the muslims(i assume sunni) against these belifs.

would someone care to educate me please.

sattar2 #143 The issue is the abuse of Islam for gain power, money, or self-glorification. This is not a trivial issue where one should simply chill. Nor indeed is it a theological issue per se. This is a practical problem of the foremost importance in the world today. It is a battle we in Pakistan have been fighting ever since Zia (in his quest for power) abused Islam to justify his betrayal of the uniform he wore and the country that put its trust in him as c-in-c. This battle that we had virtually lost in Pakistan before 9/11. Today, the US itself has had to divert resources from badly needed medical research that would have benefitted all of mankind in order to carry out the thankless job of fighting the same terrorists that the Pakistan government could and should have never allowed to gain power in Afghanistan and within Pakistan as well. And this is just the mischief created by the abuse of Islam that has global attention. Far greater is the mischief created within muslim countries against muslims and nonmuslims - this mischief has already gravely weakened our legal and political framework in pakistan and indeed is a bigger danger to pakistan than any number of soldiers the indians could bring against us.

So, it is not a trivial question of how you pray, or what hamidm likes to drink (the latter incidentally is his private business, and you are way out of line in ridiculing him - how do you know about his personal habits, and how dare you call someone a fornicator and a drugee without any basis, and even if you have a basis why is it your business as long as he is no threat to anyone?)

So how does terrorism fit into the question of ahmedism, naqshbandiism, mullahism and whatnotism? BECAUSE THE ABUSE OF ISLAM STARTS BY TAKING AWAY FROM THE INDIVIDUAL HIS RIGHT TO UNDERSTAND THE QURANIC MESSAGE FOR HIMSELF. The Quran strictly forbids suicide - and yet suicide bombers have become synonmyous with muslim terrorists today. No doubt some mullah told these young people that per his interpretation it is OK to kill yourself. Had they had the confidence to read the Quran themselves, they would have known better. The Quran strictly limits even the prophet himself from going beyond the role of messenger, and says that implementation is not his concern. Imagine where muslims would be today if they followed this simple and clear guideline: they would realize that an Islamic state is a contradiction in terms, since enforcement power is the defining characteristic of a state. And yet we think it is OK because Maudoodi thought differently than the Quranic instructions.

So, the issue about individual vs. guided interpretation of the Quran is indeed a fundamentally important one. The supreme irony is that this issue puts you, as an ahmedi, on the same side of the table as the very same mullahs who have railed against ahmedis, and indeed who fight among themselves like dogs (since it is literally a matter of money and power to them). So, while it is your business if you wish to have a follow-up prophet to muhammed, unfortunately the bigger issue - the zillions of individuals who take their cue from their de facto prophets and thus do evil things that they would never do if they used their own common sense and sense of decency and understanding of the Quran.

One last thing: You wonder why I have so much confidence in my interpretation of the Quran. Very simple. Because the Quran is not rocket science and does not require me to have a PhD to understand it. AND THE QURAN SAYS SO ITSELF. When the Quran tells me it is a Book to make things simple, I believe it.

sattar2:
I think it is a good night today to confess something. I never mentioned it before but I might be the only chowk interlocutor who actively participated in anti-Ahmedi movement, making news in the local newspapers. That is why I have always avoided taking part in this discussion. Regretfully, I have participated in many ways during my misspent youth to serve Islam but this is the one jihad I am most ashamed off. I participated in damaging properties of innocent Ahmedi residents of Islamabad, hurling stones on their glass windows and abusing verbally. This former Muslim asks for your forgiveness on behalf of some members of your community, if possible.

#131 by tahmed32 on May 27, 2003 9:19am PT
I for one have said on numerous occasions said exactly this on chowk: indeed I have even specifically pointed out that the concept of an Islamic state is a contradiction in terms, that religion is a personal matter and it is simply rude (if nothing else) for people on chowk to insult people on account of their religin (as I see d_souza doing in his posts below),
-----------------------

No sir, you misinterpret me and my posts...

Religion is a personal matter as you say.
The point I am trying to say is that if muslims converts to christianity or any other relgion, it will never be accepted. Islam lays down so many tabs..so amny conditions and hatred for other religions that it is almost unthinkable for muslims to like any other religion.
And they(the subcontinental muslims) just hate hinduism(hindoooooism). They hate it inspite fo the fact that thier ancestors were hindus..although they added surname `khan` or syed with thier new names. The reason these converts give is that they disliked the fake relgion..the idolatory and this and that...and abuse..elepahnat nosed god..or monkeys and snakes....don`t they know that hindusim is not all about this? It is much deeper...
So now...christians are out to prove that thier religion is better..so those subcontinental muslims who deserted hinduism because they thought the new relgion of the invaders was better...they can now accept christainity also..as this is the new `better` religion...

India was a hindu country..before the invasions by muslims..and its own people deserted its relgion.
So imagine a scenario..Pakistan is a muslim country, right??
imagine...some invasions by christians or some other relgious groups..and slowly..the paki population slowly goes on converting..and after convertign starts hating its previous religion(islam)...

You guys show so much hatred for India`s indegenous religion..you have rebuked and insulted your own roots..own gods...you won`t find peace..what you did to India and its relgion will one day come back to you...wait and see

Saminasha:

An excerpt from Women of Sufism: Carrying the Light of Love by Camille Adams Helminski.

``Though the Quran strongly encourages the pursuit of knowledge and education for women as well as men, women sometimes received fewer opportunities than men in similar circumstances. Within Islamic society as well as within our own, difficult treatment of women has occured - in some cases obvious, in some cases insidious. Though local cultural overlays and male dominated jurisprudence may have increased restrictions on women in various areas, the Qura`n basically enjoins mutual respect and valuation of the human being regardless of sex or social situation.``

Personally, I am not at all into reading any books on women of the past except for knowing from what I`ve read in my childhood. It`s like going back 20 years vs. moving ahead. But still I see your point and the need. It`s interesting that you asked me this question and I was browsing through one of my subscriptions today and came across this article under the category of ``Religion and Philosophy.``

You can check out this book at www.shambhala.com.

Aside from that, Asif`s article had some great points as well and I did not mean to completely write it off. I was coming from a completely different perspective. Someone like Asif Naqshbandi may suggest you many other books provided he keeps his posts simple avoiding the mention of so many laheem shaheem names. The poor reader gets completely lost in them vs. reading the substantive material of his posts.

I would also highlight something about the said book. It`s just a book and not harfae` akhir so take it easy. The first person who is mentioned in this book is no one else, but Khadija and then Ayesha and then Fatima. Now, this is very coincidental :)

Another interesting point is that none of these catalogues would like to focus on Pure Islamic Scripture but will combine that under the name of Sufism. My gut feeling says that is to portray a more spiritual aspect of Islam vs. the one that is being ridiculed right and left for promoting extremist and negative sentiments.

Another interesting point that I would like to mention about Rumi`s words and verses on women. Well, the man is way tooooooooo emotional. I like to stay away from such readings and writings unless something just spins your heart and mind out of a blue :)

In Mathnawi, he says: ``Woman is a ray of God. She is not just the earthly beloved: she is creative, not created.`` Now, it`s nice to know the self worth of one`s gender, but that`s it. If women start flying on cloud 9, imagining how they are perceived by men, of course - then that ain`t any good. And, that`s the point I was hammering on. Self worth should not come out of what the other gender thinks of you. Self worth should have a standalone existence, be it from any scripture, personal conviction, faith, belief, upbringing and other influences and then it can absorb these heavenly sayings in a casual stride.

There is another book that I got as a present from one of my dearest friends on Rabia Basri. I do not remember the exact name off the top of my head, but you can find the book and a few others on Womenforhumanity.org.

Hope that helps.

I myself find the logical implications of God`s existence and God`s nonexistence BOTH rather scary, so I hang somewhere in the middle of comfortable ambiguity.

But my God-given or million-year-evolved brain cells say that what with looking after tens of thousands of galaxies galloping about in space with their millions of planetary systems, what with our sun having only a few hundred million years of existence left and here on earth 6 billion souls to worry about, including the starving Ethiopians, el nino, and on top of it, the ocean tides and the molten core surely and steadily slowing us all down, God is just a little more preoccupied with design issues than Naqshbandi thinks he is, and doesnot mind what is posted on chowk.

Tahmed Sahib,

Some comments are in order … beginning with reiterating what saminashah earlier stated … that you need to chill some. You seem to be blind-sided by supreme confidence in your interpretation of Quran as the only valid one … which only aggravates the situation with your ever annoying, in-your-face style. This Sahib, forms the basis of fanaticism.

You seem to talk from both sides of your mouth. You advocate civility at times, and then go on to ridicule Ahmadis, Nagshbandis and others. You insist that followers of other religions can indeed go to heaven, but then go on to criticize others for their beliefs. And whatever you cannot explain, you sweep under the rug with the broad brush of “spirit of Quran” … which is a notion that only you can explain what it means to you. It is ok to have disagreements … but let Ahmadis have their prophet, let Naqshbandi kiss the graves of the dead, let the Syed bow to his grandfather’s coffee table … who gives a flying fcuk …?

Who a person worships or reveres … is a matter between this individual and Allah only. What do you care? It is this simple thought that has escaped the ummah for centuries now … and only druggies, fornicators, and alcoholics like hamidm seem to get it. Which is the reason why I hold him in high regard. And it is his lack of pretensions … and lack of interest in deliberating who is and who is not a Muslim … that makes him more virtuous in my eyes than the mullahs and fake-intellectuals of your type.

Syed Sahib,

Without getting into whether Mirza Sahib was a prophet or a whore-monger … I have only one comment for you … get your facts straight … idiot! I am referring to your comment regarding the death of Mirza Sahib … which is incorrect and is based on mullah’s propaganda against Ahmadis. Disagreements with Ahmadis is one thing … but for god’s sake, try not to sound like a rambling fool.

Other than that … it is ok for you to think that the society should hold you in high regard … and that you should kiss the grave of some maulana illa-billa … if that turns you on. Society that actually respects Syeds for their bloodline, gets what it deserves. Just as long as you let me do whatever the hell I choose to with Quran and Mirza Sahib … I am alright.

Asad

hamidm #134 Actually I got bad news for you...you said ``I renounce it`` three times no doubt. But it is clear from your post that what you renounced was this religion of mantars and magic of the bearded clowns in nightshirts. The Religion of the Manworshippers. So velly velly solly (as they say in Thailand) but what you rejected was not Islam.

Naqshbandi:
``hamidm2...though your posts are often witty and amusing i should point out to you that the ulama and mutfiyaan e azaam are unanimous that if someone says ``i am not a Muslim`` or ``I am a Jew/Christian/kafir/etc. (non Muslim)`` even in jest he automatically goes out of Islam and he then has to re-read the kalimah to enter it again.``
You remind me of an incident from the `60s - that is before the much-maligned Zia`s time. A husband-wife actor team also played husband and wife in a film, in which the hero gives a triple-talaq to the heroine. The mullah-brigade raised a big storm and said that the real life marriage of the actor and actress could no lonter be considered valid.

hamidm2:
``......... i also like to hedge my bets and always say a fervent prayer whenever i am in a church or synagogue``
.....spoken like a true horrible hindoo!