Yesterday and Tomorrow in India Today

Studebaker #165


I am not sure what love or hate of cricket has to do with my comments

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Tipu #162

``I bn people and only 1% of possible thousand TIDEL park and you still bragging---bragging

So mumbai is one for 1 bn indians

Hong Kong and Singapores are only for its city/country population.. ``

You are in the second inning of a baseball game. Don`t be too hasty in declaring the winner.

IN HIS straw hat and crescent shaped antique chain that hangs from his neck embossed with `peace` and `shanti`, Rajesh Touchriver makes an impression even before he talks about his controversial film ``In The Name Of Buddha.`

(Don`t get misguided by his name, he is very much an Indian from Kerala, who changed his original surname Thodupuzha into its literal translation `Touchriver`)

A postgraduate in visual language and direction from the Wimbledon School of Art, London, Touchriver`s film graphically recreates the atrocities of civil war in Sri Lanka through the eyes of a Sri LankanTamil. The movie was nominated for the Best Debut Director category at the Cannes Film Festival.

//////
There you have it, the final act of indian modernity, a good old kerala surname, ``thodupuza`` has been changed to ``touchriver``, in not very distant future the river name itself will change. That is pathetic.

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Ref dost-mittar #56

[shankar:
Have fun in Mumbai. I am told that the Ambani complex in Navi Mumbai also provides enviable amenities for the Reliance staff. Maybe you could pay a visit to your old friends there:-) ]

Man, you got as good a memory as moi. I expect the Headshrinker to meet with his elementary school chum Mukesh Ambani and swap stories of what they have been doing since their time together at Altamont Road in Bombay ;-)

Hopefully, we will all get to hear about it on Chowk!

Ref Urstruly #70

[good and well written article. The only thing missing is a bunch if oictures. I am pretty sure chowk staff could have accomodated them within the article somehow.]

A couple of years back, there was a show on Deutsche Welle TV (shown in some cities in the US) on the outsourcing of software work from Germany to India. I did not realize that the TV shot had shifted to Bangalore. The campus of the software park that was shown was absolutely unlike anything I have seen in India.

By the way, the software park was built by Singapore. So much for Indian civil engineers and architects, who of course are anyway trying to become code coolies.

PS. TIDEL Park in Chennai was also not designed by Indians. The crapola elevated train station in front of it is.

Ref ali87 #75

[wait till the lawyers realise the savings of having law research done in India. Some small Indian law firms already have employees qualified in American law doing research on contract basis.]

About 18 months back I met an Indian lawyer (trained in the US) in Chicago and he was already talking about outsourcing legal research to India to corporate legal departments.

India needs to avoid scenarios such as Gujarat. Otherwise its on the right track.

And it needs to stop looking for the past under Masjids.


Ras

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the back button is too far and one has to take the effort of removing the stuff which is still there in the posting window... too much work

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??

Chowk Staff

It would be nice if there was a link to the discussion where one posted in the screen that comes after posting

#148 by bbabu on June 11, 2003 9:53am PT

yes the percentage is low. certainly most who go back do so for two reasons because they are better qualified and find comfortable positins back in india and those who go back for sake of family or culture or simply to be home.

#150 by bbabu on June 11, 2003 9:53am PT

Im not saying that private schools are necessarily bad but neither are govt schools. they both have their role and both have shown they can produce academic successes.

anyway i dont remember why we started discussing schools..

:)

ali87 #139

`` two of my friends have gone back who had green card. One of the person I met here is preparing to return back they are citizens and have been here for 18 years. Their children are already doing Medical In India. ``

The percentage is very very low

rsaxena #147

`` ...those exist in every society...under different names and covers...it is not just in india... ``

India has too many
It has worked to India`s advantage

ali87 #140

Goct schools are dead in urban Tamilnadu. There are a few govt aided schools. The dominant schools in most localities are private institutions. It may something to do with Tamilnadu`s large Christian population.

Even if govt schools are good does it have enough capacity to educate everyone ? What is the use of a govt school if it has enough space for 10% of total population ? there are no prizes for guessing which 10% of the population attends the school.

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re: babbu #141

...those exist in every society...under different names and covers...it is not just in india...

rsaxena #124

There are multiple fissures in India

north and south
rich and poor
urban and rural
Hindu and Muslim
upper caste and lower caste
Hindi and Non-Hindi
fair and dark skinned
male and female

All this ignores local factors.

This would be too hard on the brain cells of some people who look at everything as Islam versus rest of the world.

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#136 by bbabu on June 10, 2003 10:33pm PT

there was a survey some time back (a few years back) which surveyed thousands of well known acheviers in various feilds, ie business, Academics, Arts, Professionals, Politics, Govt etc which pointed out that most of them came from very worst of the govt schools(this survey if I remember right was done in light of the consistent good performance of poor students in govt schools in Delhi and elsewhere).

The govt schools that I am referring to in delhi are not the KV etc which are quite good. I am reffering to the schools run by Delhi Govt (those days Delhi administration) these adhere to the Delhi Board slaybus and exams(though almost similar there are slightly different and delhi board s a bit tougher in science subjects and very poor in langages) unlike the KVs which adhere to the CBSE.

I have lived in bangalore, Hyderabad, and Delhi and went through 9 schools and 2 colleges as well as having some friends who own colleges as well as some who are professors and lecturers.I have cousins who have studied in gone through schooling in mulitple states too. I do have some Idea what I am talking about.

#137 by bbabu on June 10, 2003 10:33pm PT

two of my friends have gone back who had green card. One of the person I met here is preparing to return back they are citizens and have been here for 18 years. Their children are already doing Medical In India.

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#129 by Tipu on June 10, 2003 4:56pm PT

Who the hell cares if americans prefer to smoke up their dollars on wireless or in tobacco.
We are doing well better than before and that will continue to grow. That is what matters.

#131 by Tipu on June 10, 2003 5:14pm PT

sure one day we will find that the by the way I made a small contribution to your welfare this month. When you are out of job remember the .5 billon in social security we give away to americans.

Perhaps for this reason this is happening

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=16426

#130 by rsaxena on June 10, 2003 4:56pm PT

remove your muslim hate goggles things will be clearer

ali87 #123

`` ...It is hard to study without a decent private school education. I dont think so. Private I think you mean expensive. Some of the best results in schools in Bangalore come from govt as well as private(extreemly cheap and basic schools like acharaya patshala). ``

You have this ugly habit of making an exception into a rule. Most people who have done well went to good private schools. Some private schools are cheap because they are backed by some endowment or charity organization. Some have to be funded by students and hence the high fees. Tell me exactly how a dalit farmworker kid is going to get into such an instituiton.

`` Similarly In Delhi the govt schools (you got to see how bad they are, the students need to be confined in like a jail and still they manage to escape the school during school hours, approx 30% of the teaching posts are not filled those teachers who come rarely take classes) give out the best results. Till a decade back they were getting usually 60% of the top 20 ranks in the 10th and 12th exams (im not aware of the results now as I dont follow the trends there now.) ``

There are very good govt schools. KV-IIT and KV-CLRI are still the best schools in Chennai. I am sure most of students are employees of IIT professors, CLRI researchers, bank officers and army officers.

Studebaker #121

`` I do not know see why it cannot happen but do you thinkAmericans will starveto let indians tke there bread away .That too whenrules and LAWSaremadeBy Americans

Do you thinkAmerica gets foreign doctors to learn or find them indespensible ..No ..two pairs of hANDS ....
Yes here and there they import 200,000 code colies for tempworkWHEN THEY WANT..you have no leverage or bargaining or andictate to Americans ..at least NOT india ``

Is it possible enough Americans are not willing to study for advanced degrees in medicine, engineering and science ?

Indians who get their green cards are staying here. I am yet to see any GC holders go back to India.

`` Ps. btw 60lac -150K ....is in zia s term `pea nuts` for millionor billin dollar setlement .... ``

Indians will make more money each year being code coolies for Fortune 500 corporations than Pakistan made in its entire history being a condom for US State Department and Pentagon. At least Indian code coolies deserve the money they got.

Tipu #131

`` 4000 medical doctors,400o Dentists AND 30 ooo engineers ANNUALLYare added I the work force.

All India level 36000 medical doctors annually qualify ... ``

How many are really qualified to do their work ? Getting a degree meants squat.

hamidm 115,

That is a fairly accurate discription of brahmins, especially the total absence of sense of humour, largely due to preoccupations with the future lives. But of course, it is not a waste of reincarnation.

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re: ali87

..are you indian?

re: ali

{surprising you say that being from the north.. }

..what`s true is true...can`t always blame someone else for one`s problems....

#121 by Studebaker on June 10, 2003 10:42am PT

Er which Zia are you talking about? and how is what ever he said relevant in this context.

I supposse that even a billon dollars is not a deciding factor.

Remember Khatre Khatre se samundar buntha hai!!

Americans need not starve only India gets better. By your silly argument it means that the rest of the world is starving? while only americans are well fed?

#124 by rsaxena on June 10, 2003 2:27pm PT

surprising you say that being from the north.. Now we should assume the stink coming from the north has no contribution from you :)

re: #115 by hamidm2
Methinks you are recently incarnated from the Ape. What do you think?
Sridhar

re: hamidm

...the big divide in india is between the north and south, not between brahmin or non-brahmin...

...the north is busy reproducing and $hitting on the streets while the south is busy building infosys and designing intel chips...

Harpreet:
Thanks for dropping by. Where have you been?

#116 by bbabu on June 10, 2003 7:57am PT

again this is a very relative thing.

...It is hard to study without a decent private school education. I dont think so. Private I think you mean expensive. Some of the best results in schools in Bangalore come from govt as well as private(extreemly cheap and basic schools like acharaya patshala).

Similarly In Delhi the govt schools (you got to see how bad they are, the students need to be confined in like a jail and still they manage to escape the school during school hours, approx 30% of the teaching posts are not filled those teachers who come rarely take classes) give out the best results. Till a decade back they were getting usually 60% of the top 20 ranks in the 10th and 12th exams (im not aware of the results now as I dont follow the trends there now.)

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#118 by dost-mittar on June 10, 2003 7:57am PT

there are some called Palaghat Iyers. Palaghat being name of a place.

There are plenty of Tamil brahimins from(now of course spread out elsewhere)Mysore city who were working for Mysore state (ie the Maharaja of Mysore) similarly there are a few (including the Ex dewan) in Bhopal(working for the Nawab of Berar).
Im talking of course of old families. Post independence there has been a lot of migration to and fro.

ali87 # 96

`` Even today as many people have admitted here on this fourm that the southie brahmin is very prevalent in the software industry in India. so what exactly are you cribbing about. ``

A lot of folks overcame the system.

`` The dalits have borne worse and for centuries in just a few decades you have started cribbing that to of such a small favour in just one sphere of life.
Argeed reservation is not a efficient method but right now it is the only one availabe to the dalits ``

Explain to chowkies how many children of dalit farm workers is ever going to benefit from reservations in professional colleges. It is hard to study without a decent private school education. Hint the ones to benefit are the rich Dalits.

#109 by Layman on June 10, 2003 0:34am PT
dostmittar #61:
``All five founders of Infosys, I believe, are Tamil Brahmins and are continuing their brahminical traditions, sans arrogance, in their newly found organization.``
There you go again, with your inaccuracies. Infosys - this is public information - has seven founders, not five. Only two of them are Tamil (Brahmins). Narayana Murthy and one other guy are from Karnataka. There are at least two from Kerala.
---------

I have been to various organisations like HAL Bangalore, ADA and others. I observed that there are people from all over India working in these organisations. There were so many of them from Punjab/Gujrat etc..
It must be the same in IT industry as well...so the brains working behind any successful venture are from all over India

Layman#109
That information about all founders being brahmins was not based on my visit to Infosys but an article I had read a year ago; hence the qualification ``I believe``. Sorry, if that info. is incorrect.
BTW didn`t Kerala (old Travancore) have tamil brahmins as well?

shankar, hi
i may be visiting bbay around the same time and i join u in hoping fervently musharraf doesnt cause any accidents just then... can u tell me of some nice second hand book shops in the breach candy area (or places nearby)?

re: A new green revolution in Andhra?
Ultimately, technology wedded to the needs of the local population is the answer to poverty. The following article is worth reading. It seems, the technology of Drip Irrigation borrowed from Israel is paying rich dividends in parts of A.P.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=310859
Sridhar

re: # 109 by layman
Five of the six founders of Infosys are brahmins. Nilekeni is a Kannadiga brahmin. So is Narayana Murthy (i thought he was a Tamilian but i may be wrong). Two of the rest: N.S. Ragavan, S. Gopalakrishnan are definitely Tamil brahmins. I am missing the fifth. May be it is K. Dinesh.
I was surprised to learn that Gururaj Deshpande (founder of sycamore Networks Inc.) and Narayana Murthy are married to sisters.
http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bra001/brah0105.html
Sridhar

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Dost Mittar

I really enjoyed this piece...thanks alot

-h-

Arjun_ m

``If abdul paki is asked the with urstruly or with the capitalists, guess which side he would pick? ``

Ain`t it a hoot and a holler to see American ``progressives`` support anti-globalization measures because they ``care for the poor of the third world``?? The only people they care about is Union dudes making $30 an hour, working 40 hours a week while the third world poor starves to death.

are all brahmins party-poopers?

............. i have had the misfortune of knowing many many horrible hindoos over the last twenty five years - it is a professional hazard - and i don`t want to stereotype, or anything, but i think i can a spot a brahmin from a mile ............... i don`t like them - not that i love any kind of indian - but i like brahmins least of all ............. as william tecumseh sherman once said, `` the only good indian is a dead indian`` .......for that he is a national hero in pakistan with statues and temples dedicated to him all over the place - ranks right up there with aurangzeb and mahmud ghazni .......... but that is another story

......... the only indians i know who are vegetarians, don`t drink or smoke, have silly little temples in the basement of their homes, have absolutely no sense of humor, show up for work with red war-paint on their foreheads, stink up the entire eight floors by warming up lunch in the microwave and generally have a constipated look about them, are the brahmins .......... am i wrong? ............ is it my imagination or do other indians also think they are a sheer waste of a step in the reincarnation process ...........

............. just looking for confirmation ............

dostmittar #61:
``All five founders of Infosys, I believe, are Tamil Brahmins and are continuing their brahminical traditions, sans arrogance, in their newly found organization.``
There you go again, with your inaccuracies. Infosys - this is public information - has seven founders, not five. Only two of them are Tamil (Brahmins). Narayana Murthy and one other guy are from Karnataka. There are at least two from Kerala.

ali87 #78

Put things in perspective
Cost Plus sales is $1 billion
Wal Mart sales is $250 billion
Who would you want to supply ?

India exports $10 billion in textiles. China exports $30 billion. One reason is MFA. The other reason is that Chinese have bigger and more efficient factories The Chinese have zero sentiments for Khadi and other handloom industries. I have no problems with handloom and small scale units. But some idiots want to impose restrictions on large scale factories to keep your handloom sector competitive. That is my real gripe.

Software and IT enabled services hit $7 billion. If there are no tarriffs from the West I expect it to hit 100 to 200 billion dollars.

hari #90

`` Good for them. I think education and opportunity should be economic based and not caste based. Caste based opportunity is ripe with corruption.

One of school class-mates, son of a very, very, very rich industrialist paid a local panchayat adminstration to get a sch caste/sch tribe classification to get admission to a good college. Was it worth it eventually? the answer is NO. Eventually, he inherited his father`s empire and became a CEO. But in the process took an opportunity away from another needy student.``

I agree and disagree.

Why I should admit a poor Brahmin student with 97% marks over a industralist son who scored 85% ? Especially in a field related to the industralist business like mechanical engineering or MBA program.

Ideally I would admit both. The industrialist son gets preference.

Your 97% or 85% reflects the ability to memorise and write legibilly and take exams. It does not reflect true intelligence or analytical ability. Don`t ask me how I would setup the admissions process.

Studebaker #88

`` Yealike ENRON,World Com ,Unum ,Merill Lynch ``

For every Enron there are plenty of Intel, Microsoft, Cisco, Dell, IBM, GE, Motorola and GM.

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re: #92

{Globalization is a sort of arrangement among whitemen, an honor among theives, if you will, that prevents wealth from trickeling down (to brown folk). }


...then how did the singaporeans, koreans, and thais get their hands on some of that wealth?...the thais at least are quite brown...

...there are 2 ways to go through life...one is to always find blame (with the white man in this case), and the other is to accept some mistakes and fix them....

...the brown man`s mess after the british left is of his own creation...even letting the british in is his own fault....

re:#76 by dost-mittar
``You are right that Indians should extend greater support to their homegrown innovators. But I became somewhat skeptical in this area a few years ago when someone`s claim to find a cheap dirt alternative to petrol turned to be a hoax after it got wide publicity and praise in the Indian press.``
Oops! I remember that one. It was a guy from Tamil Nadu who claimed he could make Oil out of water or something. He failed miserably in controlled settings under the supervision of scientists from IIT, Madras. Karunanidhi, the vily politician that he is, gave it a casteist twist.
But the following looks more promising:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=310738
Sridhar

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#87 by Studebaker on June 9, 2003 5:03pm PT

I actually know a small firm of lawyers who billed 60 lakhs last year by having two almost fresh LLBs with american law knowledge(their first)a supervisor monitoring only parttime to a US client.

dost mittar: I read your article and turned green with envy. I need to see rajasthan and jodhpur and jaisalmeer. hell, i did not even see delhi for more than a day of driving around. Bangalore and all are OK I suppose in terms of pointing the direction to the new India etc. But if you`ve seen one computer screen you`ve seen them all. And I am not too thrilled by Pokhran, unless I seek that healthy glow of the well radiated skin. But a train ride in the countryside in India would be cool. One day...

#86 by rsaxena on June 9, 2003 4:18pm PT

incidently I sold have got a rug 2/3 feet for $300 value and I have got an offer for it for $500
.
take a look.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289962931&congratulation_page=Y

Junk bidri work ie silver inlay in metal typicaly costs about 15 thousand for a average kind of piece.


infosys has about 12 thouand - 14 thousand employees after we have 500 infosys we will sitll have only a few lakh we probablyh add 12 to 14 thousand people every day so plenty of people around to make rugs.


remember that even the big Mac is a peice of junk so is coke. Plenty of money in that.

#90 by hari on June 9, 2003 6:10pm PT

you dont say why caste based resrvation is ripe for misuse and not economic based reservation is?

Even today as many people have admitted here on this fourm that the southie brahmin is very prevalent in the software industry in India. so what exactly are you cribbing about.

The dalits have borne worse and for centuries in just a few decades you have started cribbing that to of such a small favour in just one sphere of life.
Argeed reservation is not a efficient method but right now it is the only one availabe to the dalits

#61 Dost-Mitter:

I know the pain of the South Indian brahmins. Some folks assume the worse of them and it has hurt us terribly.

For instance, my cousin sister, scored 97.5% in Physics, Chemistry and Math in Madras back in late 70s. The Tamil Nadu education system couldn`t find a medical seat for her because she was brahmin. She ended up going Literature in Coimbatore even though she wanted to be a doctor badly to really help the needy. I got a distinction in physics and the most I could do was getting admission to BITS, Pilani in MS chemistry even though I wanted engineering.

My sister-in-law came from a poor family in Kerala. Her parents couldn`t afford to school her. She did correspondence and got gold medal with state rank. After they came over to LA, both my nieces are going to medical school with full scholarship in UCLA. These kids turned down John-Hopkins scholarship.

Good for them. I think education and opportunity should be economic based and not caste based. Caste based opportunity is ripe with corruption.

One of school class-mates, son of a very, very, very rich industrialist paid a local panchayat adminstration to get a sch caste/sch tribe classification to get admission to a good college. Was it worth it eventually? the answer is NO. Eventually, he inherited his father`s empire and became a CEO. But in the process took an opportunity away from another needy student.

One more thing, Dost-Mitter:

Key incredients for the south-indian brahminical mind:

No garlic, no onion. My wife doesn`t cook with garlic. I take onions.
My mother won`t touch garlic, onions. I asked my grand-ma when she was alive; She said something to the effect, that eating these make you aggresive and not think properly because anger causes mind not to think rationally. I notice that north-indians by nature tend to be very aggressive, not necessarily assertive.

Yogurt rice-yes, Okra(ladies finger) yes for analytical ability.

Ofcourse, no meat/eggs/chicken.

All these could be grand-ma`s tale. so take this for what its worth.

One more thing:
If possible, try watching Zee TV drama and South Indian(Sun) TV available here in US.

You will see more ``parties`` thrown in Zee TV serials, let us go party this, party there; You will see complete absence of party-scene in tamil TV drama from south. It makes us, southies wonder if north is all about show and no substance. I don`t know about Andhra or Karnataka.

rsaxena # 86

....better to focus on industries where some barriers to entry can be built and sustained over longer periods of time...sooner or later the wealth will trickle down...

Whiteman foresaw that and made sure that such barriers are never set up; for that he invented the devil`s ultimate device called globalisation. Globalization is a sort of arrangement among whitemen, an honor among theives, if you will, that prevents wealth from trickeling down (to brown folk).

rsaxena, a time has finally come in the history of Capitalism that every one is left with only one choice - either you are with them or against them - what you are trying to say is a severe conflict of interest; if you think deep.

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...hamidm is right...economic output will not increase quickly by selling $2 rugs to pier-1....there is only so much demand for such garbage...and sooner or later, sub-saharran africans will figure out how to make it for $0.50 and there goes the desi cost advantage...

....better to focus on industries where some barriers to entry can be built and sustained over longer periods of time...sooner or later the wealth will trickle down...the key is to stop the corruption and red tape...if 500 infosys type companies are built, they will create tons of jobs not directly but indirectly for their suppliers and through the wealth their employees spend consuming goods and services in their neighborhoods....

#82 by hamidm2 on June 9, 2003 1:43pm PT

Hamidm burra sahib since every one cant be making software some one can make other stuff.

and if you did not know we have 1 billion + people a hundred millon making handicrafts will not be a big dent on indias techonolgical capbilities or for that matter pakistans capabilities.

There is nothing 2 number about Bosch parts neither about the Addidas except what is in you mind.

#81 by sadna on June 9, 2003 1:43pm PT

Nirulas is even stronger. It has been around for more than 2 decades and has a very wide menu. while McDolnalds flogs itself to find the prefect potato and refrigrating it and genrally investing great amounts to find the right combination of food to make the taste same the wily Indians use the ageold masalas etc to make better food and not be overthrown by the slight differnce in starch of a potato form one field over the other.

As for the so call unique ability of the americans to provide a clean and neat place I suppose that the racist apologist take that as a inhherent capability of only americans. First we should assume that it is americans only who can make a neat resturant while discounting market factors, purchasing power etc. the next thing we are asked to discount is the question ``how difficult is it to create a neat and clean establishment if the consumer is willing to pay for it`` answer will be a few weeks.

It will be intresting to see how muc Mac will sink into the Indian market. Coke has already sank 400 crores (net loss)in the 12 years it has been in India while ad agencies, distributors, retailers, trasnporters have extracted their profits not to forget ramesh cauhan who got 100 crore for selling his flagship brands and even I think has a small royalty for thumbs up(which coke intended to kill)

#81 by sadna on June 9, 2003 1:43pm PT

Probably you have heard of Anna Hazare. a bit of details how water conversation has transformed his village in maharastra and is now serving as a model to other villages.

http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/inspirational/ralegan.html

similarly abdul kareem without previous knowledge of farming or access to mordern methods by just grit and common sense has transformed a rocky hilly land with acute water shortages into a jungle with freeflowing water wells

http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/inspirational/abdulKareem.html

I think we need to celebrate these achivements just as much as the ones in IT and perhaps particpate in those.

ali87 #37
``the skills available in the villages are amazing what they lack is structure and innvoation. Most NGOs have the target to improve health, education etc. I take upon myself to put the question of what happens after the kids get education(as we define our present education)? they certainly would like to move to the cities to become clerks, or doctors, engginers, or whatever they imagine. But going by the number who fail to achive their targets it is a crime not to think of alternative solutions.``


Correct! The unorganised sector contributes the larger portion of India`s GDP - not the organised sector which include engineers, clerks, manufacturing.

Even if the organised sector grows at the blazing rate of 10%, it cannot accomodate more than a small fraction of the total Indian workforce. Its wasteful and wrong for our educational system to project becoming a engineer-doctor-officer as the only respectable goal of education.

http://www.blonnet.com/bline/2003/03/15/stories/2003031500561300.htm
`More focus needed on unorganised sector`

``IN the enthusiasm to realise the benefits of training to the organised sector, we are sadly neglecting the unorganised sector which contributes about 60.5 per cent of the country`s GDP, according to Prof Ashoka Chandra, President, Indian Society for Training and Development.

Instead of focussing on the 93.2 per cent of the population that is employed in the unorganised sector, we are emphasising on improving the skills of the seven per cent that is already in the organised sector,`` he said. He was speaking at the inaugural session of the Southern India Training and Development Conference in Bangalore on Friday.

Prof Chandra said that the 12 per cent GDP growth that the country is looking at requires `no magic` if we direct our efforts toward improvement of productivity in the unorganised sector. ..``

PS to my previous post :
http://www.indiaonestop.com/unemployment.htm

``Economic reforms may have given a boost to industrial productivity and brought in foreign investment in capital intensive areas. But the boom has not created jobs. This was not unexpected. According to a report by the Washington-based Institute of Policy Studies (IPS), the combined sales of the world`s top 200 MNCs is now greater than the combined GDP of all but the world`s nine largest national economies. Yet, the total direct employment generated by these multinationals is a mere 18.8 millions -one-hundredth of one per cent of the global workforce..``

``Sixty per cent of India`s workforce is self-employed, many of whom remain very poor. Nearly 30 per cent are casual workers (i.e. they work only when they are able to get jobs and remain unpaid for the rest of the days). Only about 10 per cent are regular employees, of which two-fifths are employed by the public sector.. ``

dost-mittar #71
Good to hear about Haldiram`s!

Re water management, there are some influential private initiatives too - at least one in Maharashtra which revived the tradition of village ponds which has restored the greenery in many villages. The role of NGOs IMO, should be to prove these schemes work and after that sit on govt`s head to replicate them widely by adopting them as policy.

Right now the scary and criminally wasteful bhoot of joining India`s major rivers is riding on NDA`s head. Ab yeh bhoot kaun utaare? All parties like being bribed by contractors:(.

ali mian,

if you think india should be making ``number 2`` primer pumps and stamping them ``made in germany`` instead of ``made in india``, that is fine - i doubt bosch is aware of it ......... there are a lot of auto parts made by bosch, federal mogul and others that are made in china nut they are marked ``made in china`` ........... if bosch is knowingly doing it, they will be out of business soon - which i doubt very much............

........... and if you think making cheap handicrafts to sell at pier-1 is better than making software for ge and ibm, that is okay too .......... there are people who need the 50 rupees a day...........

...... at present there is room for both - but the sooner the developing countries move up the chain of value-added manufacturing, the better off they will be ............. you can`t survive on exporting feta cheese, olives, cheap handicrafts and fly whisks .............. i guess you can if you are content to live in a mud hut with sheep for room mates ..............

#76 by dost-mittar on June 9, 2003 10:59am PT

In fact the only ones who deride this sector are our natives. For instance there is a store called Cost Plus World Markets which has 150 large stores in US(and is targeting to increase it to 450) It specialises in exoctic goods from abroad. Nearly 1/3 of the goods there are from India and most are of the arts and crafts varitey and a few others produced with limited mechanisation. Now this company reported a turn over of 550 million dollars. It would be safe to assume that approx 1/3 of the turnover came from the Indian goods. If we include Pier 1 imports and many other chains which stock some form of Indian carft/art goods both In US as well as europe I think it would not be too difficult to say that approximately (exclliding jewllery)that Indian craft good have a 1 billion market value in the west.

How does market value of $1billion of this unknown, derided product sound in comparision with the $7 billion that software exports had
last year? the question we should ask ourselves is this is despite the shoddy quality of most of these products if these have market value of $1 billion then is it not a good achivement?
any thing wether manufacuted or made by hand has value if the customer likes it and it is reasonable in cost. Consider this the Indian skills etc are not a brand or a recognisable value for the customers who are buying these products in fact many may not even know where the products they are buying came from.(ie the positioning of these products are of cheap discounter level crafts) also the quality of the crafts are not good.
This $1 billion retail value probalby does not even transalte to $50 million to the craftsmen who make them. If we were to study this business and ensure that better quality and more products and innovation in applicaiton and design as well as better managing the supply chain (to benifit India and the craftsmen)and creating a brand value for carfted products and Indiaan skills in crafts we can have a very direct impact on the lives of a small though (big in number)section of socitey which benfigts directly form it and does not require technolgical dependence from outside and at the same while keeps social structures in better condition in the rural India. Imagine if 7 billion could make such a big impact in urban India what would be the impact of $1 billon in rural India if it is directed properly?

pmishra2:
It is indeed necessary to go from Jaisalmer to Bangalore to find these differences. One can move from `yesterday` to `tomorrow` within any metro in India, often by just crossing the street.

Layman:
Thanks for pointing out the inaccuracies. The longer period of training might have been a temporary reaction to the slowdown in the industry. As for free buses, I might have misinterpreted subsidy as free service.

Ali87:
You are right that Indians should extend greater support to their homegrown innovators. But I became somewhat skeptical in this area a few years ago when someone`s claim to find a cheap dirt alternative to petrol turned to be a hoax after it got wide publicity and praise in the Indian press.

Maharana:
Encouraging education through such incentives for parents to send their children to school are indeed a step in the right direction. Lunch time nutritious meals, started as an election gimmick in Tamil Nadu, has been such a success that it is being repeated all over the country.

#48 by hamidm2 on June 8, 2003 8:04pm PT

lets see are the high heeled shoes for women uncomfortable?

let us say that there are approx 1 billion people in the world who can afford jootis and who live in a temperate climate. even a 10% market penetration will mean sales of say 100 millon if those are sold at say 5 dollars at whole sale price to distributors that means about 500 million dollars.
Now that translates into a sizeable sum that to there is minimal machinery involved. the people making it benifit directly ie the money is not lost too much in distribuiton chain or in creating crorepatis who make their money while giving daily wages to workers.
since no technology is involved there is no out go of dollars but a plain income in dollars.

Now lets see what was pakistan getting from the IMF (for which it had to bend backwards and change it polices)this year? have a few such skill based exports at least you wont need to beg from IMF.

on the other had if freely available you can use these Jootis to hit your self over your head from time to time for not having realised it earlier.

#69 by arjun_m on June 9, 2003 9:21am PT

wait till the lawyers realise the savings of having law research done in India. Some small Indian law firms already have employees qualified in American law doing research on contract basis.

#48 by hamidm2 on June 8, 2003 8:04pm PT

you mean there is no demand for the american quilts? those made by stiching rags togethe(or what looks like rags) almost 70 percent of the embelishement work on garments done for the eurpopean fashion industry is done by India and pakistan this includes all the top faishon houses of europe.

Just because there is no market does not mean that there will not be any market. what is the market for coca cola? you mean that it has some utility value?

#48 by hamidm2 on June 8, 2003 8:04pm PT

I suppose that you dont go to the cheese sections of the supermarkets and see the feta cheese(goat milk cheese in the greek style).

I pity you guys who lead life though the manual given by your white masters.

sadna:
`` hope there are more in the pipeline!``
None in the pipeline, but you never know:-)
Re. the water crisis, I think this is a major, major problem facing all Indian states. I saw signs of it even in Himachal Pradesh with its abundance in snow. The Indians know the problem as well as the solutions - reduce wastage, increase water tariffs, better management, reforestation and better care of the environment in general. Unfortunately, this is an area which is almost totally dependent upon govts., the role of the private sector is limited, even potentially.

Yes, India cannot be solely dependent upon exports. In the final analysis India, even China, have to depend upon internal economies to absorb their massive labour surpluses. They should think their ``cheap labour`` as a useful resource for both global and local markets. Vajpayee`s road infrastructure initiative is the most commendable effort by this or any Indian government to generate employment and strengthen domestic economy at the same time. If I understand your example of thelawali with cellphone, it is an attempt to use the technology to make the small businesses more efficient and is to be really applauded.
I have no problem for someone paying or charging 100 rupees for idlis; for one, the seller has much higher overheads and has to recoup them, for another, if the buyer gets some snobbish satisfaction from the high priced idly and adds to employment and taxes, more power to him/her.
BTW the fast food MNCs, even MacDonalds are not getting a free ride in India. You know who is going to give MacDonald`s a run for its money? Haldiram`s! I am not kidding you. I visited their roadside restaurant on the new Delhi Gurgaon freeway, just 25 kms from Delhi. It serves all kinds of vegetable foods the Indians crave, with efficient and clean facilities. The place has a parking spot for hundreds of cars and has both indoor and outdoor seating arrangements. The lineups for food are long but move fast. I dont think MacDonald`s has a chance competing with this guy. On the other hand, MacDoanald`s has massively indegenised to cater to the Indian palate in India.

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good and well written article. The only thing missing is a bunch if oictures. I am pretty sure chowk staff could have accomodated them within the article somehow.

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Dost-mitter

One of the significant elements of the Muslim culture in India over the centuries was the ``Tawaif`` - the ones who extended themselves into the culture through their music, dance and ettiquett. And not only confined to the sex part.

They spawned numerous love affairs with Nawabs - a theme on which at least 30% of the Indo-pak film industry is based.

In your train rambles through India, did you ever venture to study this aspect? And its present form?

In Pakistan, off course, these are hounded by the custodians of religion and they live spread out in posh areas - only to report on duty after sunset at their official shop.

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#48 by hamidm2 on June 8, 2003 8:04pm PT

Dear Hamidm you wouldnt know what im talking about because there is no offical directions from IMF or the US economists for it.

However let me educate you about some things. Not that people will not jump at the opportunity to make reboks or Nikes they do. For eg a couple of kilometers from my home in Bangalore there is slum and on its borders there is a equally slummy industrial estate (infact you cant distunguish one from the other) Chances are that if you brought one of the reboks or Addidas or Lotto shoes here it might have been made in that slummy factory with no board , a rachety and rusting gate and rusting tin roofs.

Similarly there is a company in Bangalroe called Metal Impacts which manufactures auto components for MICO-BOSCH. Let me tell you how one of the component is manufactured. the Deisel hand primer usuall avaialble in most bigger deisel trucks(deisel hand primer is a small pump like device with a small barell and a cup at bottom and a pump like mechanism to suck diesel from the tank in case the engine gets dry usually happens if you run out of diesel or in cases of cold etc). This is a Boch brand which commands top positon in the European market and one of the top position in USA.

MICO the subsidary of BOSCH in india is suppossed to be doing the manufacturing. MICO gives the Order to Metal Impacts. Which in procures the raw material and gets it delivered to two fabricators who make the cup etc. the main body of solid metal needs working on a lathe and is also given to 4 companies. let me describe one of the four companies.
This one is run by a guy called shivakumar ex employee of metal Impacts he is a 10th standard pass and has about 1 years exp as a lathe operator. His factory is a 12 by 14 feet shed in bylanes of a semi-slum the floor which might have been there in his factory has long since vanished it has mud and large indentations in the floor whose color varies from black (form oil grease etc) to a very dark brown. Shiva kumar has 4 employees apart from himself. once the work is done on the product (about 16 operations) the product goes to Metal Impacts in a rickety old Van which usually takes a few minutes to start.

When it reachs Metal Impacts the peice is put on a small hand machine which basically by racheting a lever on the peice etches in the part the words ``Bosch ---number Made in W Germany``. Subsequently the the cup is attached with means of two clamps which are made by a small press(the kind you see in book binding shops in India to press pages of a book in place) by a uneducated woman of 63 working in the same factory doing the same work for the last 26 years(I think she is still working) earning the same daily wages earned by all other unskilled labour.

A statistical quality check is done in metal impacts and the pieces are stuck with the quality sticker of BOSCH and packed in retail Packaging and put in Boxes and dispactched to MICO which does nothing except attach a sticker on the big box of hand primers and a QC check at random on statistical basis. It waits till it has a container load and then Dispaches it to BOSCH Germany.

Metal Impacts also manufacutrers for 2 of Boschs compettiors in Germany. Usually these manufacturers insist that Metal Impacts should not have any kind of relation with their compettiors. A farcial scene takes palce whenever the germans come for Inspection in Metal Impacts all the compettitors products are removed from the premises and there seems to be no oursoucing of work with all work bieng done on the usually Idle Lathes in the factory. All documents are removed from sight which may point to a compettiors name.
However the germans are not unaware of what is going on but they also let the matter go.

You can see that people are not so shy of exporting anything to US given half a chance or even a very slim chance. Nothing great about exporting to US companes. It is old hat in India only the educated white collar lost in the woods people are in of US or its companies.
As you can see that people have been making attempts for decades to improve their business and capabilites while you have been ranting about the third world imbeciles.

While the business in the west come to respect such entrepruners they im sure will only show comtempt towards people like you who are nothing but vemonus armchair critics of their own people.

#58 by Layman on June 9, 2003 6:24am PT

ditto on training and bus charges.

dost-mittar

Really enjoyed reading your article dost-mittar ji. I had gone for a hiking trip in rajisthan a couple of years back, close to Jaisalmer. It was a wonderful experience it’s a beautiful part of the country. We used to pitch camp near remote villages, often miles away from a road. These people made a living by raising cattle and catering to groups of hikers like our group that did not want to take the usual touristy trails. One thing that struck me was that they had computers, just one or two for the village. They were not well educated but were smart enough to realize that they have to invest in their future. They used to trade in livestock on their computers. I had a similar experience in Arunachal Pradesh which I think is the most beautiful part of the country.

Regards,

Faruk

bbabu, Hegde I think lost out because he was `involved` in a telephone tapping case - it was never proved. Anyways, he belonged to the wrong caste (brahmin) in a state dominated by Vokkaligas and Lingayats. He became CM in the first place as a compromise candidate, because the two communities` politicians could not agree upon a leader.
Dost-mittarji, a good article. I would however like to point out two inaccuracies, as I have been to the Infosys campus myself: Infosys employees spend about two to three weeks a year on training, not one third of the year - no company can make money if employees needed to be training 33% of the time. Secondly, Infosys employees pay for the `bus` transport, it is not subsidised by the company - afaik.

hamidm2 #48

I agree with some of your criticisms of cottage industries. But there is always place for customization and localisation in industry. The idea is to train rural folks for such opportunities.

nadeemakr jee,

What you say is absolutely right. I`m sorry if nice Pakistanis like you got hurt by my intemperate remarks...I dont bear any malice towards you- or your country or most of your countrymen....

...though, I must admit; the mischevious brahmin streak in me likes to raise the hackels of these indomitable marital race-types---the TRUE sons of God, the real paragons of Islamic virtues...there are a few such cartoon characters on Chowk...its fun to imagine their fair, handsome, (though unwashed) faces, turn red & gnash their teeth when I expose them for what they are---sanctimonious hypocrites..

...at the VERY least, I have managed to prove (to myself; atleast) that the MOST IDIOTIC cartoon character on Chowk--our ``one & only`` 12 HEAD; (one of his ``avatars`` on this thread is Studebaker) is (most probably) an idiotic Pakistani muslim from frikking Lalukheth; who went to Ghanchakkar Medical College in bfk-ed Gilgit!!!

...heheheh!! the bakra went for my bait like a rat to cheese....

like we brahmins say....there are several ways to skin a stupid katloo!:)))

Jay:
You are right about education being the real driver of progress. But let me say a word of praise for that much maligned species on chowk - the south Indian brahmin. Despite their arrogance, these brahmins had their virtues. The brahminical culture at its best, as practised in the South, stood among other things, for discipline, rigour, austerity in food and clothing, and hard work. I dont envy the life of a brahmin boy a generation ago - the poor fellow probably never knew the meaning of the word ``fun``. When the positive discrimination against brahmins took hold in the South, these attributes came handy for these brahmin kids. Most of them belonged to lower middle class. Many of them migrated outside Madras and shone on the basis of competition. Their earlier skills of memorising vedas and rigours of learning came quite handy in secular academic learning.
It is not a coincidence, I think, that South Indian brahmins dominate the IT industry. All five founders of Infosys, I believe, are Tamil Brahmins and are continuing their brahminical traditions, sans arrogance, in their newly found organization.