The Follies of the Natives

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dost-mittar #108

{{Vajpayee, Advani and Fernandez are not mere party leaders but members of a govt., indeed senior members of the same cabinet. No govt. worth its salt, whether democratic or dictatorial, can allow members of the cabinet to speak their own mind in public. Matters are supposed to be discussed in the cabinet where people are free to voice their opinion, but once a decision is taken, they lose their independence and must support the cabinet decision. }}

The point about the Indian government/cabinet needing to speak with one consistent voice is reasonable when the government on the other side is sober and professional in its dealings and has a track record of avoiding public acrimony.

In the present instance we are dealing with a Pakistani military dictator with a known record of using negotiations with India as a venue for playing to the domestic gallery, who regards all past bilateral treaties signed between India and Pakistan as null and void, who cites the Pact of Hudaibiya as a model for making, and subsequently breaking, tactical agreements with kafirs. I personally believe India should have no diplomatic dealings with Pakistan at all. But if we must, a version of good-cop/bad-cop makes eminent sense. ABV, LKA, GF have made statements consistent with their public personas. IMO it is highly unlikely that this was done on the spur of the moment and without prior clearance.

Incidentally, `advanced` countries use the same stratagem as well, on occasion. In the US, for instance, Rumsfeld plays a hawkish role to the hilt while Colin Powell acts the dove. A common variant is to use a planned `leak` from the USG to cooperative corporatised media to coerce a foreign government.

re: Indo-Pak peace talks
The war of words has already started: between LKA and Mushy boy. Will there be peace? Who knows!
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=311489
Sridhar

#112 by sameerJB
``Don`t you wish that god should have revealed his messages in mathematical forms instead of prose or poetry.``
That is the most beautiful thing i have read in Chowk for sometime.
Sridhar

Tipu #109

`` Thats the Catch of Democracy where chances of me elected from Kanpur is NIL !

Then why ask when first Step is not Assured ...if not asking for Guarantee !! ``

Don`t blame democracy per se.

India has one form of democracy - winner talk all. It has its own pluses and minuses. In Germany half of the seats are reserved for proportional representation. So a party could win 10% of the votes and not win a single seat in direct parliamentary contest. Still they could win 10% of seats in proportional column and have 5% of all seats in parliament.

re:#108 by dost-mittar
Thanx for your post.
I agree with you. In general, it is a good practice to stick publicly to what has been decided behind closed doors in cabinet meetings.
In US, nothing is done behind closed doors. Even Congressional hearings are telecast live on C-Span. There are many powerful congressmen who have fought on issues and do not mind taking on the president himself in public fora.
Indian democracy has worked like a family heritage under the Gandhis. It is coming out of that closet now. But regional players have become very powerful. Andhra C.M Chandrababu Naidu does not have to run to Delhi for all the decisions. When T.N Chief Minister Jaya lalitha visited Delhi recently, Foreign minsiter Sinha broke protocol to visit her!
People like L.K.Advani or Fernandez sometimes shoot off their hips. Or may be all this is a carefully worked out strategy. I had always felt that L.K.A and ABV have been playing the good cop-bad cop routine successfully. I may be wrong.
Sridhar

re: Dost-Mittar # 108

Brilliant!

That was well said and to the point. Given the antics of our (mis)spokesperson in Pakistan, I can attest to your arguments! I have nothing against the plurality of opinions. My concern is that such conterdictory statements create and promote misunderstandings, which really does not help anything. Hatred between India and Pakistan thrives on misunderstanding and the idea should be to remove it; not to encourage it!

Would you agree that the clarity of statements, on both sides, can be considered as a confidence building measure? Gaffes of Musharraf certainly do not help the situation and neither do the conterdictory statements from New Delhi.

Ciao

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Tipu#110
The term ``conversion to islam`` implies that they were natives, not immigrants!

dost-mittar:
I read your post #103 after posting mine. Anyway, responding to your previous post does not mean to disagree but to express my opinion in my way. People with scientific background, like us, understand logic and rationality in more concrete way, through some sort of deconvolution fit factoring in various variables and their influences on the overall result. Making sense out of widely distributed random data requires weighted averages and deviations. That is why yours and mine mumbers do not always match to the last significant figures.

Don`t you wish that god should have revealed his messages in mathematical forms instead of prose or poetry.

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rsridhar:
Vajpayee, Advani and Fernandez are not mere party leaders but members of a govt., indeed senior members of the same cabinet. No govt. worth its salt, whether democratic or dictatorial, can allow members of the cabinet to speak their own mind in public. Matters are supposed to be discussed in the cabinet where people are free to voice their opinion, but once a decision is taken, they lose their independence and must support the cabinet decision. If they cannot, they must resign before speaking out their mind, as Robin Cook did it in the U.K to express his disagreement with Blair`s policy on Iraq.

BTW, the most worrisome part of the Musharraf interview, from my perspective, was his statement that in the Indo-Pakistan talks, he is hoping to see a change of heart in India but is not prepared for any change on his side. To me, that was the most stupid statement in the interview and the one he will regret when the man from WWW comes calling next time with a road-map on Kashmir in his pocket.

sameerJB#103
Please see my post#103 to tahmed.
I do agree that immigrants should/must not stick out like a sore thumb. I myself dress like an ordinary Joe and my children all wear western clothes, except for Canadian oddities, such as when they want you to wear your ``national costume`` in the school one day in a year. How can I oppose people adjusting to the majority culture when my major grouse against muslim Indians has been that conversion to Islam meant giving up their native identity in favour of an alien one?
My point of contention is elsewhere. People everywhere in the world should not be asked to dress like the white man in order to be considered civilized. If they adopt shirts and pants, as most urban Indians have, it is their prerogative, and if the Pakistanis opt for their qaumi libaas, it is their prerogative, too. I do not accept the fact that a man in a suit is necessarily more civilized than the one in shalwar-kameez. These days, college girls in India increasingly wear jeans instead of sari or salwar-kameez; but I think they are no more westernised than most of the Pakistani women on Chowk, who I suspect still wear shalwaar-kameez.
But as I pointed out earlier, things are changing even in the west and people are more accepting of diversity. I personally knew two Indian ladies in the Canadian govt. who mostly wore saaris to work. Both of them were damn competent at what they did. Their saritorial preference was never an issue with their bosses or colleagues and they ended up as Directors General in the federal civil service (they would not have gotten anywhere with spiked hair or pierced eyes).

re: rsridhar # 101

Thanks for the post. I was not refering to the mutli-polarity in Indian politics. This is the problem; whether you believe it or not, there is a segment of the Pakistani population which wants peace with India. When Indian leaders speak in terms that seem contradictory, it gives ammo to the hard liners in Pakistan to put the pro peace lobby on the back foot! That was my concern. Any reply would be appreciated!

Ciao

dost-mittar #97:
Isn`t hamidm making the same statement that taking visibly different identity to absurd extremes is counterproductive? Most of his posts do picture an extreme situation of desi practices but you have to bear in mind that in identity backed by religions, more is better and miximum is best. Five times a day prayer is better than once a week and extend thhis to all other visible practices of identity. The wrong assumption underlying to be perfect in identity is to act as close to the original as possible. That might have some benefits in socializing back home or within same culture or religion abroad. However, the negative side is isolationism and falling behind in the race. The topi-sherwani-pajama-dhoti combinations do not and would not help in acceptance, forget about assimilation that comes after acceptance. The Gandhi dress would not win a single election anywhere in USA from mayor, sherrif of a city to any national level office.

Additionally, a distinct modset is associated with extreme visible practices of identity. A Jinnah cap-sherwani clad is more likely to consider western culture decadent, trying to isolate his family from the evil influence, leaving behind another generation to keep fighting and sweating for mere acceptance. Some of them will undoubtedly achieve quality education and become respectable but more of the second generation would have achieved same or even higher status without the influence of protecting and preserving identity the wrong way.

Japanese American have one of the highest per capita income in America. Most of them can`t speak Japanese, all of them converted to Christianity but the Japanese identity exists and exists quite remarkably except for making a strange looking intentional display of it. The atheist ashkenazi Jews have not lost their Jewish identity without practicing or doing anything remotely Jewish. On the otherhand, their hassidic brother with weird displays are nowhere close in achievement except for one or two billionaires and computers/ cameras shops in NY. There is definitely downside to publically displaying practices of identity than identity as a state of mind for Japanese Americans and Ashkenazi Jewish Americans.

Gandhi should be known for his political deeds and not for his looks. What worked in one arena to unite people against colonialism would not necessarily have any positive impact in other areas. Unfortunately the adoration and admiration of a person for achieving something great or producing something remarkable is used to elevate irrelevent and other aspects of one`s work or personality. Using A to elevate B and then using elevated B position to jack up A is very common human nature. However there is no justification for ``Gandhi Gandhi kardi ni meiN aapay Gandhi hoi`` (substituting Gandhi with Ranjha). Iqbal has become best philosopher, best poet, best father, best Islamist, best socialist, good lookig and handsome for his admirable role in independent movement (from Pakistani perspective). I can not even say that a great Sufi A was a so-so poet because people will be chasing me for ``dishonoring``.