Rasheed Talib August 7, 2003
#8 Posted by Naqshbandi on August 8, 2003 9:00:42 pm
Hazrat Sayyidina Khalid ibn Walid (radhi Allahu anhu--may Allah be pleased with him) is one of the greatest of Sahabis (Companions of the Prophet alayhisalatuwasalam) and was given the title of ``Sayf Allah`` (The Sword of Allah) by The Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam himself.
It does not behoove Believers to make allegations against any Sahabi.
It does not behoove Believers to make allegations against any Sahabi.
#7 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 8, 2003 8:39:35 pm
TehsinAbbasi:
The `character` of Khalid bin Walid is an open book. His adulterous episodes and also the punishments he received are recorded for all to see. Tabari, is a well-respected and quoted source by majority muslims.
The exploits of yahyaa khan and Mushharraf are, to secularists, a sign of their conquests and bravery as well. Last time I checked they too were calling themselves muslims.
Muslim conquests whether ummayyads, abbasid or mughal just cannot be quoted as examples of the creed. UN charter and US `allegiance` to it does not need any `interpretation`. A visitor to Kabul & Baghdad would tell you that, for sure.
The `character` of Khalid bin Walid is an open book. His adulterous episodes and also the punishments he received are recorded for all to see. Tabari, is a well-respected and quoted source by majority muslims.
The exploits of yahyaa khan and Mushharraf are, to secularists, a sign of their conquests and bravery as well. Last time I checked they too were calling themselves muslims.
Muslim conquests whether ummayyads, abbasid or mughal just cannot be quoted as examples of the creed. UN charter and US `allegiance` to it does not need any `interpretation`. A visitor to Kabul & Baghdad would tell you that, for sure.
#6 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on August 8, 2003 8:21:03 pm
In our current context the term Islamic Fundamentalism is used not only to indicate a belief in literal scripture, but also denotes a willingness to commit violence in the name of religion. While it’s important to examine scripture and even come up with an enlightened reading and a new interpretation, but I hope that you would examine the expansion of Islam in history. The following letter may illustrate the point.
In 633 A.D 12 A.H
“From Khalid b. al Walid to the ruler of the Persians:
Peace be upon whosoever follows right guidance. Praise be to God. Who has scattered your servants, wrested your sovereignty away, and rendered your plotting weak. Whoever worships the way we worship, faces the direction we face in prayer, and eats meat slaughtered in our fashion, that person is a Muslim who obtains the benefits we enjoy and takes up the responsibilities we bear. Now then, when you receive this letter, send me hostages and place yourselves under my protection. Otherwise, by Him other than Whom there is no god, I will most certainly send against you a people who love death just as you love life.
History of Al Tabri – Volume 11
From India in the east to Spain in the west expansion of Islam took place with similar ultimatums. It cannot be dismissed as an initial phase. The Ottoman Empire during its hay day plundered, took slaves and demanded tribute. Fact of the matter is such behavior was considered barbaric till the barbarian accepted Islam and then it was okay so long as he committed those acts against non muslims.
Is the current docility of Muslims because of the peaceful message of their faith or is it because of their present weakness? Minorities in Muslim lands remain insecure and fearful. I hope you would address these issues in your book.
In 633 A.D 12 A.H
“From Khalid b. al Walid to the ruler of the Persians:
Peace be upon whosoever follows right guidance. Praise be to God. Who has scattered your servants, wrested your sovereignty away, and rendered your plotting weak. Whoever worships the way we worship, faces the direction we face in prayer, and eats meat slaughtered in our fashion, that person is a Muslim who obtains the benefits we enjoy and takes up the responsibilities we bear. Now then, when you receive this letter, send me hostages and place yourselves under my protection. Otherwise, by Him other than Whom there is no god, I will most certainly send against you a people who love death just as you love life.
History of Al Tabri – Volume 11
From India in the east to Spain in the west expansion of Islam took place with similar ultimatums. It cannot be dismissed as an initial phase. The Ottoman Empire during its hay day plundered, took slaves and demanded tribute. Fact of the matter is such behavior was considered barbaric till the barbarian accepted Islam and then it was okay so long as he committed those acts against non muslims.
Is the current docility of Muslims because of the peaceful message of their faith or is it because of their present weakness? Minorities in Muslim lands remain insecure and fearful. I hope you would address these issues in your book.
#5 Posted by dost_mittar on August 8, 2003 3:52:32 pm
Talib saheb:
Having read your earlier articles, this does not come as a surprise. However, for those of us outside the ummah, it is hard to see where Muslims are headed. It seems that when it comes to the matter of their faith, most Muslims will accept the interpretations (tafseers) of the Maulanas who have spent most of their lives studying Quran, hadith and sharia than of laymen from other fields whose interest in religion is secondary, if not peripheral. You may be able to convince a highly educated elite but not the vast majority who have been weaned by the teaching that not a single sentence in the Book is to be questioned. To do that, you will first have to destroy Qoms, Deobands, Azhars, and whichever is the fountainhead of Wahabis.
Regardless of whether Mutzalites were right or wrong, is it possible to separate the relgious from the political in Islam? Is it possible to say that religion is a matter of personal belief only and should have no place in determing what kind of society there should be? In othe words, to somehow prove that the clause ``to you, your religion and to me, mine`` overrides every other message in the Quran. If it is possible to separate religion and politics in Islam, then the matter of what those beliefs are assumes lesser signficance.
Having read your earlier articles, this does not come as a surprise. However, for those of us outside the ummah, it is hard to see where Muslims are headed. It seems that when it comes to the matter of their faith, most Muslims will accept the interpretations (tafseers) of the Maulanas who have spent most of their lives studying Quran, hadith and sharia than of laymen from other fields whose interest in religion is secondary, if not peripheral. You may be able to convince a highly educated elite but not the vast majority who have been weaned by the teaching that not a single sentence in the Book is to be questioned. To do that, you will first have to destroy Qoms, Deobands, Azhars, and whichever is the fountainhead of Wahabis.
Regardless of whether Mutzalites were right or wrong, is it possible to separate the relgious from the political in Islam? Is it possible to say that religion is a matter of personal belief only and should have no place in determing what kind of society there should be? In othe words, to somehow prove that the clause ``to you, your religion and to me, mine`` overrides every other message in the Quran. If it is possible to separate religion and politics in Islam, then the matter of what those beliefs are assumes lesser signficance.
#4 Posted by jay on August 8, 2003 7:10:42 am
islamic manifesto, that should be the name of your book. I liked the section, situating quran, whcih is a classic marxian term, situating koran in the historical context.
I have to agree with you, islam is progressively becoming the religion of the oppressed, spreading through the black ghettos of newyork and the prisons through out the west. In that sense the vision of ummah is no different from the uniting of the proletariate. As the marxist would say, the golden age of islam can come only when the whole world is taken over by islamist, the global marxian revolution.
I have only one request to you, Karl Marx was one of the greatest thinkers ever lived, will you let him have some peace in his grave. Leave the opiate of the masses as it is, dont turn it into a revolutionary elixir.
I have to agree with you, islam is progressively becoming the religion of the oppressed, spreading through the black ghettos of newyork and the prisons through out the west. In that sense the vision of ummah is no different from the uniting of the proletariate. As the marxist would say, the golden age of islam can come only when the whole world is taken over by islamist, the global marxian revolution.
I have only one request to you, Karl Marx was one of the greatest thinkers ever lived, will you let him have some peace in his grave. Leave the opiate of the masses as it is, dont turn it into a revolutionary elixir.
#3 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 8, 2003 7:10:42 am
Rasheed Talib:
No need to worry. There is no `controversey` anymore.
The shock-tactics just won`t work now that the inter-net is full of all kind of `controversies`.
Save your time and money. You and your book will be ignored. A striptease has some value for its novelty & shamelessness in a clean society. Now the striptease is being performed by every tom dick & harry--and they are even getting hitched to each other. The senses , in this age of sattelite & inyernet, have been numbed by exposure & `controversy`. In a 500-channel digital universe viewers have their own `ummah`. Reading such books is passe`. Academics are no longer considered to be learned. The younger generation is on a roll....and they are muslims and they are flaunting it. No amount of `controversial` dust can obscure this fact. The humanist & liberal , commie & athiest of yesteryears, is now on the defensive--and that is a very pleasant view. Muslims are tremendously happy that at least now they are considered as an adversary, a threat, an enemy--far, far better than not being noticed & denied the existence of an ummah.
Let Ibne-Warraq and Ibne-Sina carry out this `noble` task. At least they have declared themselves atheists and should have no fear from any quarter.
The blanket just does`nt let go. Why?
No need to worry. There is no `controversey` anymore.
The shock-tactics just won`t work now that the inter-net is full of all kind of `controversies`.
Save your time and money. You and your book will be ignored. A striptease has some value for its novelty & shamelessness in a clean society. Now the striptease is being performed by every tom dick & harry--and they are even getting hitched to each other. The senses , in this age of sattelite & inyernet, have been numbed by exposure & `controversy`. In a 500-channel digital universe viewers have their own `ummah`. Reading such books is passe`. Academics are no longer considered to be learned. The younger generation is on a roll....and they are muslims and they are flaunting it. No amount of `controversial` dust can obscure this fact. The humanist & liberal , commie & athiest of yesteryears, is now on the defensive--and that is a very pleasant view. Muslims are tremendously happy that at least now they are considered as an adversary, a threat, an enemy--far, far better than not being noticed & denied the existence of an ummah.
Let Ibne-Warraq and Ibne-Sina carry out this `noble` task. At least they have declared themselves atheists and should have no fear from any quarter.
The blanket just does`nt let go. Why?
#2 Posted by Saminasha on August 8, 2003 4:59:58 am
Another very interesting article by the writer!
While I understand that three fourths of the world (parts of america included) have ``grievances`` with US policy, it would be edifying to discuss various aspects of fundamentalist ``grievances``-esp. from people like bin Laden.
While I understand that three fourths of the world (parts of america included) have ``grievances`` with US policy, it would be edifying to discuss various aspects of fundamentalist ``grievances``-esp. from people like bin Laden.
#1 Posted by MantoLives on August 8, 2003 3:37:43 am
Bravo!
Thankyou for this piece. I don`t think one can disagree much with your conclusions.
People by the way just to point out the eminent Pakistani Islamic scholar Fazlurrahman, that the author mentions, is the Muslim Modernists who was based in the US and not Maulana Fazlu... lest Indians get any wrong ideas especially after fazlu`s kissin` and makin` out session in India.
I think a brilliant article no doubt.
`I am referring here, as some of you would know from my previous writings, to the debates between the radical Mutazitlite and the conservative Asharite schools of theology, both of which were regarded as mainstream and ``within the tradition``.`
Brilliant ... !!!
I am buyin the book dude...
-Manto
Thankyou for this piece. I don`t think one can disagree much with your conclusions.
People by the way just to point out the eminent Pakistani Islamic scholar Fazlurrahman, that the author mentions, is the Muslim Modernists who was based in the US and not Maulana Fazlu... lest Indians get any wrong ideas especially after fazlu`s kissin` and makin` out session in India.
I think a brilliant article no doubt.
`I am referring here, as some of you would know from my previous writings, to the debates between the radical Mutazitlite and the conservative Asharite schools of theology, both of which were regarded as mainstream and ``within the tradition``.`
Brilliant ... !!!
I am buyin the book dude...
-Manto
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