The Truth About Karachi

#102 by tahmed32


1. BJP did not rule for 15 years. In fact, BJP was an insignificant party 15 years back. Know your enemy.

2. `browbeat pakistan` ??? Do you want me to take you guys seriuosly?

3. `supress kashmiris` : Forty percent turnout in an internationally recognized elections (NOT REFERENDUM) where sitting state gov`t and ruling all powerful BJP was thrown out. I like YOUR definition of suppression. NOT.

4. `But this i think is the only wise course ...`` What do you think should be the next wise move? Dividing the country on the religious lines? More importantly, what do you think that Pakistan`s wisemove should be?

5. I beleive that lot of pakis (including the educated ones have lot of misconceptions about India and Indians. Just trust me ... 99% of Indians (hindus, christians, muslims, sikhs, jains will never let an inch go from the EXISTING borders AND IMPORTANTLY will never seek an additional inch from either pakistan, bangladesh, nepal, bhuton,mynmar, srilanka or maldives. 99% of the remaining are delusional idiots like Farzana Versey, Studebaker etc and the rest of the 1% live in kasmir valley (I think, but I am not sure but we keep finding paki panjabis and pathans, afrikans, arabs claiming to be kasmiris. Therefore, I am not sure about the 1% of the 1%.

6. You MUST really beleive me on this one .... majority of that 99% are WILLING to go for nuclear war to protect every inch of the EXISTING borders. I never met a single Indian who is willing to give up kashmir for the sake of peace, UN security council seat or 10% rate of growth.

7. East Punjab/West Punjab; East Bengal/West Bengal; East Kashmir/West Kashmir.

8. Don`t put too much faith in western journalists covering India/Pakistan. Probably, that`s where you leaarned that BJP ruled India for the past 15 years. I once read in the WSJ that the reporter was surprised to see women pilots in Indian Air Force. I also read a report in an Indian newspaper ridiculing a journalist from a prestigious american newspaper ... the journalist went all the way to kashmir find `yellow sea` because the term `yellow sea` kept popping up in radio/tv bulletins during Kargil war.

9. As far as India is concerned, the only wise move left for pakis is LOC or yellow sea.

er #103 I get the sense that while most karachiites agree with WHAT Time says, they dont like HOW it says it and ignores the positive aspects of karachi (of which the high spirited folks is certainly one). But then the focus of the article was law and order in Karachi.

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dost mittar #96 You may well be right in crediting elections in Kashmir the cutback in violence in Kashmir, and also in saying that the thaw in relations has had only a marginal impact. I just dont know enough sitting so far away to say for sure. And if what you say is right, then certainly the policies of BJP in kashmir can also be credited with the continued violence during the past 15 years, and with pakistan playing no more than a ``helping hand``.

My original point in post #71 was different: I was simply pointing out that while the WSJ article based on which he credited the Indian army with cracking down on jehadis was in fact saying the opposite (i.e. it crediting the indo-pak thaw in relations with this, and also did mention the affect of the elections in Kashmir as you indicate too).

The interesting question then is: is the lesson of this change in indian policy in kashmir (i.e. from one of suppression to one of accomodation of kashmiri aspirations) lost upon the policy makers in delhi (as it seems to have been lost on rsridhar and harish on chowk)? For the sake of peace in the future in the subcontinent, I hope not.

Of course, things are not so simple on the pakistani side either: i get the sense that musharaff is not entirely comfortable with the peace move by Vajpayee, and that is why he expresses his willingness to participate in addition to the PM. Successful negotiations between india and pakistan without musharaff being involved is bound to strengthen the elected government relative to that of musharaff. But, while normally one would consider this to be a good thing, the way things are right now perhaps we need musharaff to ride herd on the maulvis etc. Even as one does NOT want him to ride herd on the peace negotiations, given his stated interest on not compromising.

The bottom line I think remains: the policy of trying to browbeat pakistan, to get it declared an outcast in the international community and to suppress kashmiris has not worked after 15 years or something of BJP rule. the policy of friendship with pakistan is the only sensible option. Not an easy one, nor success immediately guaranteed (as we know from the failure of the first attempt). But this i think is the only wise course to take for India. And, by strengthening the forces of peace within pakistan and among kashmiris, i have no doubt that it will ultimately succeed.

#99 tahmed....agreed karachi is not an epitome of the safest cities in the world.....agreed the article should spur the general & his admin to improve the state of affairs....but then the Time article reeks of inertia...and being a karachite myself....i know that violence..chaos... nothing stands in the way of this city`s spirit to keep its pulse racing against all odds every single day! :)

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While the truth about Karachi may be some thing else, but the truth about Indian Government also needs to be noted.

Please click here to read why the current Indian Government may be using Goebble’s ploy of propaganda against Pakistan.

It says, “Congress leader Arjun Singh moved the motion, pointing out that the Constitution has become irrelevant as those who have taken oaths to protect it have failed to do so. Going into the ideological background of communal hatred, Arjun Singh quoted RSS ideologue MS Golwalkar’s praise for the Nazis.

tahmed32#94
Indians created their own problems in Kashmir, Pakistan merely provided a ``helping`` hand. Similarly, the solution also will come mainly from India. And it started with the first largely free and fair election in Kashmir last fall which has given Kashmiris the govt. which is sensitive to their pain and sufferings. It is this, more than anything else, that has somewhat improved the situation in that cursed land. I think the role of the thaw in the Indo-Pak relations is marginal. Indeed, the very statement that Vajpayee made in Kashmir that launched the peace process, was made possible because of the improvement in the situation due to a people-friendly govt. there. Of course, Pakistan can improve the situation by a true helping hand but, according to Indian sources, there is no let-up from across the border yet (as shown by the Kaka hills episode, some were even calling it another potential Kargil). And Musharaff interview supports this view; he denies Pakistani invlovement and even threatened other Kargils in the making.

harish @ 86:

You turned out to be bigger joke than what I had though initially.

On economy, learn elementry arithematics first.

In order to catch up with China alone, you need a per annum growth rate of 25 % for next 15 years or so. Now get to work and see if that is true or not.

And as a respite during the above exercise, start reading the newspapers. You will find that Pakistan always refers to plebiscite for Kashmiris, while India always claims the following:

1. Kashmir (i.e. the land) is `atoot ung` of India and

2. If Kashmir secedes then this will lead to break-up of the rest of India.

arjun #94 What part of my post that you cut and paste do you find delusional? Is it the part where I refer to:

1. India`s arrogant, hawkish policy?
2. That this violence has been going on for 15 years?
3. That India has a huge army of 700,000 men in Kashmir?
4. That the violence continues?

I ask this question in order to better understand what kind of medicine to prescribe for you. Although I fear you and many of your other Indian friends on chowk who seem to suffer from a medical condition known as pakistan-obsessionitis for which no known remedy exists.

er #93 I dont see how musharaff can deny that karachi is in many ways the most violent city in asia. The Time article should be a spur to him and others in the administration to do their job and bring law and order in karachi. Not a reason for him to get upset at Time for doing its job of reporting on the lawlessness in karachi.

Hi,

Please click here to read “Musharraf accuses India of ``blakmailing`` on Kashmir issue”. This piece appears in Outlook India.

I believe that Pakistan has been too defensive on Indian propaganda of “cross-border terrorism”. This defensive posture gave an undue advantage to Goebblish India, which has successfully turned a righful Kashmiri struggle into a terrorist activity. Well, its never too late. Truth always wins in the end. The world must be told that India is a liar and a blackmailer. We will not accept the bunch of lies anymore.

Also, Pakistani Chowsters and Chowksters of Pakistani origin should accept that the real threat to Pakistan is from:

Talibani Mullas of MMA, Al Qaeda retaliations and India, not from the USA, UK, etc.

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seems like the Pak president too has taken notice of the Time article....today`s DAWN (June 17) precisely quotes the President taking exception to what has been reported!

harish #85 I didnt say the jehadis are in Kashmir on a vacation. I was merely pointing out that it is not the Indian army that can claim credit for the lowering of jehadi violence in Kashmir, but the thaw in Indo-Pak relations (initiated by Vajpayee). I was pointing this out because rsridhar was crediting Indian army action for this when in fact the article he pasted to support this statement was pointing to the latter (and opposite) factor (thaw in relations).

As I have repeatedly said on chowk, I dont consider Kashmir to be worth even one single life, military or civilian, pakistani or indian. So, I welcome a lowering of violence in Kashmir regardless of the cause. It is therefore all the more important for Indians to get real and realize what works and what does not for the cause of peace. An arrogant, hawkish policy has been tried by India over the past 15 years, with a huge army of 700,000 sitting in a relatively small area populated by relatively few people, and has failed to curb violence. Kashmir has becomes India`s Vietnam. You wont like me for saying this, but if you get real you will realize I am not far from the truth.

On the other hand, Vajpayee`s efforts at a thaw in relations seems to be working (per the very article rsridhar posted without realizing that this is what the article was saying). I fear that what will come in the way of this is as much the militarists in pakistan as the general spirit of nationalistic chauvinism and hostiity towards Pakistan that pervades in India from all indications (there is an article in the washington post today on how innocent kashmiri muslims going to other parts of india in search of jobs due to problems in kashmir are met with hostility).

So, I think you should spare the LOLs for real humor, and start trying to face reality.

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