Sohail Rabbani July 2, 2003
#93 Posted by Hueees on March 2, 2005 8:44:57 am
Hi I am just wondering if someone knows any book or reading material regarding US economic & financial policies and its relevance to GAME theory...??
#92 Posted by Shaziaj on September 29, 2003 3:10:13 pm
Sohail, this is Imran Zali`s sister...trying to contact you..this is the only way...my email is shaziaj@hotmail.com.........Shazia
#91 Posted by dullabhatti on August 20, 2003 1:31:11 pm
SR, I did not mean I making any serious decision on your advice right away. I think even if you are 100% correct in your assessment it will take many years for rest of the world to come into terms with it. As usual I would probably be waiting in line with rest of the herd to buy gold when it happens...but Thanks for clarification anyway.. I know when our women buy gold from a jewler it is sometimes over 100% overmarked for craftsmanship or labor etc...that is why I mentioned my biwi`s gold purchases in my post.
#90 Posted by SR on August 20, 2003 11:45:25 am
Bhatti sahib, you are most welcome. Let me hasten to add that I DID NOT offer you any investment advice. To do so would be a violation of SEC regulations and get not only me but also the Chowk website in trouble. What I had written was a purely hypothetical scheme which I would follow myself if I had $250 K in spare change.
Having gotten that cleared, I would like to comment on gold in the form of Jewelery. I have spent all my life bitterly arguing with my sisters, bhabi`s and my mother as to the utter waste that jewelery is. It is absolutely the worst way to buy gold. In fact I would not even call that investing in gold. Jewelery is purely anexpense. Luckily, my wife is not one that goes for it and has only fake jewelery (well, with maybe two or three exception items, small token items, that I bought for her -- to placate her -- from various trips to places like Bangkok, Sri Lanka, India and Dubai)... But I recognize that is somewhat uncommon.
When one buys coins or bullion one pay`s a premium of between 1% to 7% depending on what one buys and where one buys it from. However, if one was to buy the same weight of gold in the form of jewelery, one pays anywhere from 35% to 70% in premium, over and above the intrinsic cost of the metal as determined by the daily published London spot market price (or the New York Comex settlement price). Be that as it may, if I am even half right about the coming Perfect Storm in the financial world, then even gold bught as jewelery will become profitable because the price of gold is likely to shoot well past the $1,000 an ounce. (These are troy ounces, 31.1 grams, or 3.75 troy oz = 10 tolas)
As an aside, I wish to add that the present theoritical value (by one way of measuring) of gold is about $700 per ounce. The market value today, amazingly, is only in the $350 to $370 range. By my calculus gold is selling at a deep discount and this price abnormality cannot last for ever. When mass psychology changes, as change it will, the market price could easily shoot well past the theoritical price. We see that absurdity in tech stocks today.
...SR
Having gotten that cleared, I would like to comment on gold in the form of Jewelery. I have spent all my life bitterly arguing with my sisters, bhabi`s and my mother as to the utter waste that jewelery is. It is absolutely the worst way to buy gold. In fact I would not even call that investing in gold. Jewelery is purely anexpense. Luckily, my wife is not one that goes for it and has only fake jewelery (well, with maybe two or three exception items, small token items, that I bought for her -- to placate her -- from various trips to places like Bangkok, Sri Lanka, India and Dubai)... But I recognize that is somewhat uncommon.
When one buys coins or bullion one pay`s a premium of between 1% to 7% depending on what one buys and where one buys it from. However, if one was to buy the same weight of gold in the form of jewelery, one pays anywhere from 35% to 70% in premium, over and above the intrinsic cost of the metal as determined by the daily published London spot market price (or the New York Comex settlement price). Be that as it may, if I am even half right about the coming Perfect Storm in the financial world, then even gold bught as jewelery will become profitable because the price of gold is likely to shoot well past the $1,000 an ounce. (These are troy ounces, 31.1 grams, or 3.75 troy oz = 10 tolas)
As an aside, I wish to add that the present theoritical value (by one way of measuring) of gold is about $700 per ounce. The market value today, amazingly, is only in the $350 to $370 range. By my calculus gold is selling at a deep discount and this price abnormality cannot last for ever. When mass psychology changes, as change it will, the market price could easily shoot well past the theoritical price. We see that absurdity in tech stocks today.
...SR
#89 Posted by dullabhatti on August 20, 2003 10:09:43 am
Thanks SR sahib. I am not sure I will/can follow your advice exactly but it just struck to me that one item you mentioned I am already heavily invested in. First (before some chowkwallas come to robb or kidnap me for ransom) I don`t have $250K cash. It was a hypothetical question. But I am invested more than 10%(of my cash) in Gold. Thanks to biwi.(although she probably bought 1 tola for $200 while it costs $80 in coins). According to her estimate it is 50/50 we have in gold and stocks.:) allah bachaye biwiyoN ke rehmo karm se.
#88 Posted by SR on August 19, 2003 10:52:30 pm
addendum to # 87
Gold, particularly the metal (not gold stcks), is like an insurance policy. One buys it and puts it away and stops worrying about its fluctuating price. It`s like a life vest on a ship that is navigating through a trecherous sea lane full of hidden icebergs.
When the ship (Titanic?) starts to leak, the smart passangers grab a hold of a floating life vest before the crowd wakes up starts scrambling for them. One does not succumb to the temptation of trading the life vest with a fellow passanger even for a Picasso original that he is willing to offer in return.
...SR
Gold, particularly the metal (not gold stcks), is like an insurance policy. One buys it and puts it away and stops worrying about its fluctuating price. It`s like a life vest on a ship that is navigating through a trecherous sea lane full of hidden icebergs.
When the ship (Titanic?) starts to leak, the smart passangers grab a hold of a floating life vest before the crowd wakes up starts scrambling for them. One does not succumb to the temptation of trading the life vest with a fellow passanger even for a Picasso original that he is willing to offer in return.
...SR
#87 Posted by SR on August 19, 2003 10:41:16 pm
Bhatti Sahib
Since I have no idea about your personal circumstances, it would be irresponsible of me to give you any investment advice, as far as what you should do. But I do not hesitste to say a few thing that you should not do. Also I can share with you what I would do if I had an extra $250K to invest. Whether you should do the same or not is not my place to say. But first, what not to do.
We are in a long term (secular) bear market and (almost) everyone loses in a bear market. The winner is the one who loses the least.
Like I mention in my previous posts and other articles, you should stay away from US Bonds (btw, on Aug 8, Warren Buffet reported to the SEC that he has sold off his US Treasury Bonds-- $9.1 Billion worth).
The other things to stay away from are US Stocks and Real Estate --in US, UK, Netherlands, Ireland, Spain and Scandanevia. Particularly the stocks to avoid at all cost are SOX and INX.X components (semiconductors and internets).
In general the main risk is in being vested in the US Dollar. Canada is a much better deal, relatively speaking.
Now, what I would do with that amount would be roughly the following:
First and foremost, I would pay off any and all debt that I could pay off (mortgage, cars etc).
Assuming that I had already paid off all my debts and still had $250 K available, then I would buy $25,000 worth of gold and silver bullion coins. That`s 10% right off the top. It can be reduced to 5% at most, but no less.
Then I would buy mining company stocks worth another $50,000 to $75,000 (20 -30%). The two that I would absolutely buy are Newmont Mining (NEM) and Pan American Silver (PAAS). Other mining companies that I would consider (any diversify by investing in AT LEAST five of them) and do research on before I invest are (in no particular order): Batch 1 -- RGLD, PDG, RANGY, ABX, AEM, CBJ, GLG, GG, PDG, HL; Batch 2 -- NRI, WTZ, RBK, RIC, GPXM, AFKDY; Batch -- 3 ORV,MVG, MWA, AQI, GSS, EGO, DSM, CGD, BZA, BGO, BDG.
One more: SSRI, is a silver, as opposed to gold, mining company.
Then I would go to EVERBANK (its on the internet) and shop around for their foreign currency CD`s. That way, I would convert my US dollars to other currencies. I`d allocate another $50,000 to $75,000 (20 - 30%) to buy CD`s with. My currencies of choice for diversification would be Canadian Dollar, Chinese Renmimbi, Japanese Yen and maybe also some Euro (7 - 11%, 7 - 11%, 4 - 5% and 2 - 3% respectively).
The remaining amount I would put in agricultural land and/or real estate but not in the countries mentioned. If (and only IF) I was originally from India, I would seriously consider India. Other choice countries where I`d look for property would be Argentina, Panama, Nicragua, Thailand, and Canada. (This after doing some research on location.)
This is just one of the several combinations that I would consider.
...SR
Since I have no idea about your personal circumstances, it would be irresponsible of me to give you any investment advice, as far as what you should do. But I do not hesitste to say a few thing that you should not do. Also I can share with you what I would do if I had an extra $250K to invest. Whether you should do the same or not is not my place to say. But first, what not to do.
We are in a long term (secular) bear market and (almost) everyone loses in a bear market. The winner is the one who loses the least.
Like I mention in my previous posts and other articles, you should stay away from US Bonds (btw, on Aug 8, Warren Buffet reported to the SEC that he has sold off his US Treasury Bonds-- $9.1 Billion worth).
The other things to stay away from are US Stocks and Real Estate --in US, UK, Netherlands, Ireland, Spain and Scandanevia. Particularly the stocks to avoid at all cost are SOX and INX.X components (semiconductors and internets).
In general the main risk is in being vested in the US Dollar. Canada is a much better deal, relatively speaking.
Now, what I would do with that amount would be roughly the following:
First and foremost, I would pay off any and all debt that I could pay off (mortgage, cars etc).
Assuming that I had already paid off all my debts and still had $250 K available, then I would buy $25,000 worth of gold and silver bullion coins. That`s 10% right off the top. It can be reduced to 5% at most, but no less.
Then I would buy mining company stocks worth another $50,000 to $75,000 (20 -30%). The two that I would absolutely buy are Newmont Mining (NEM) and Pan American Silver (PAAS). Other mining companies that I would consider (any diversify by investing in AT LEAST five of them) and do research on before I invest are (in no particular order): Batch 1 -- RGLD, PDG, RANGY, ABX, AEM, CBJ, GLG, GG, PDG, HL; Batch 2 -- NRI, WTZ, RBK, RIC, GPXM, AFKDY; Batch -- 3 ORV,MVG, MWA, AQI, GSS, EGO, DSM, CGD, BZA, BGO, BDG.
One more: SSRI, is a silver, as opposed to gold, mining company.
Then I would go to EVERBANK (its on the internet) and shop around for their foreign currency CD`s. That way, I would convert my US dollars to other currencies. I`d allocate another $50,000 to $75,000 (20 - 30%) to buy CD`s with. My currencies of choice for diversification would be Canadian Dollar, Chinese Renmimbi, Japanese Yen and maybe also some Euro (7 - 11%, 7 - 11%, 4 - 5% and 2 - 3% respectively).
The remaining amount I would put in agricultural land and/or real estate but not in the countries mentioned. If (and only IF) I was originally from India, I would seriously consider India. Other choice countries where I`d look for property would be Argentina, Panama, Nicragua, Thailand, and Canada. (This after doing some research on location.)
This is just one of the several combinations that I would consider.
...SR
#86 Posted by dullabhatti on August 19, 2003 11:51:07 am
SR: With all these apocalyptic forecasts in mind what you think average individual in US should do with his or her money? Real Estate is all time high. putting money in it for investment purposes seems risky. Even if the home prices stay stable, the return on investment(rents etc) does not justify the price they are demanding. What are your suggestions other than investing in harnessing the professional skills? Suppose I $250,000..what should I do with it?
#85 Posted by SR on July 16, 2003 8:04:24 pm
zeemax [``...it`s America`s unique ability to print endless amount of cash ! And get away with it ! ...``]
Is this a danger to the world economy?
For many years, America`s strong-dollar policy served the world and chiefly the United States very well. Their currencies cheap against the US dollar, Asian manufacturers profited by making relatively inexpensive exports and selling them in the United States at a healthy profit. In a kind cat-and-rat-farm analogy, in which the cats eat the rats, are skinned for their fur, and then are fed back to new rats, the Americans benefited by getting cheap goods that kept their consumer-led economy roaring. The financial communities benefited from the repatriation of those profits as the funds flowed back in a ceaseless waterfall into US stock markets, treasury and corporate bonds, money-market funds and other financial instruments.
But perpetual-motion machines don`t work. The monumental scale of Asia`s dollar reserves and the size of America`s deficit are starting to make economists and strategists nervous. Wayne Godley, an economist at the Levy Economics Institute in New York, writes: ``If the balance of trade does not improve, there is a danger that over a period of time the United States will find itself in a `debt trap`, with an accelerating deterioration both in its net foreign-asset position and in its overall current balance of payments (as net income paid abroad starts to explode). Such a trap would call imperatively for corrective action if it is not at some stage to unravel chaotically.``
It has been widely reported that the US must take in about $1.3 billion a day - about $55 million an hour - in foreign investment to finance its overseas debt. If that river of money falters or dries up, the difference must be made up by an inexorable fall in the value of the US currency. Indeed, if it had stopped already, the fall in the US stock markets since equities began to lose their luster in 2000 would have been catastrophic.
Certainly, Asia has been on a buying spree in US securities of all types. Despite a three-year economic pause in the United States, Asians bought a record $201 billion worth of long-term US paper in 2002. That includes another record $97 billion in US government securities. Asian central banks, with their enormous overhangs of US dollars, are increasingly doing the buying.
Over the past months, US Treasury Secretary John W Snow has begun to try to talk the US dollar down. It had fallen by more than 25 percent against the euro, the Eurozone`s common currency and the world`s other reserve legal tender, before increasingly optimistic economic news and a rising stock market checked the dollar`s fall. Although it has since risen against the euro by about 4 percent, many economists believe the dollar`s precarious position will cause the slide to continue.
The currencies of Asia, however, have almost all remained firmly tied to the dollar, either through currency pegs, reserve boards or, as in the case of Japan, as governments have bought dollars to keep their currencies static and thus to preserve their terms of trade.
Despite the US attempts to talk the dollar down, Asian governments regard any negative changes in their trade balances as inimical to their economies. While supposedly loosening restrictions so that their consumers can participate in a demand-led consumer revolution, Asia in fact is more dependent on exports today than at any time over the past two decades.
China, whose share of exports in total gross domestic product (GDP) averaged 10.8 percent in 1985-89, now is producing exports at 28.4 percent of GDP. South Korea`s exports were at 23 percent during the same period and now are at 54 percent of GDP. Hong Kong, then at 77.8 percent, is now at 153.5 percent of GDP. These figures are being repeated across virtually every economy in Asia. These exports continue to flow into the United States despite a three-year economic downturn that, if rationality were to prevail, should have slowed consumer purchases. The US Federal Reserve`s easy-money policy and record cuts in interest rates, however, have kept consumers buying at a feverish pace, far too often on credit.
``So long as America continues to secure easy funding, there is no pressure on policymakers in Washington to do anything other than run super-easy policies to try to keep their own consumer credit cycle going,`` says Christopher Wood, global emerging-markets equities strategist for CLSA Hong Kong. ``Like any profligate debtor, market discipline will only be imposed on America when foreign investors demand an interest-rate premium for owning dollars.``
Wood tends to grow apocalyptic. ``The current trend can continue for a while,`` he writes in his 110-page first-half 2003 overview of the world economy, published last month. ``But the longer American excesses are financed, the more inevitable will be the ultimate collapse of the US paper-dollar standard that has been in place ever since Richard Nixon broke with Bretton Woods by ending the dollar`s link with gold in 1971. The result will be a massive devaluation against gold of Asia`s hoard of dollar-exchange reserves.``
Japan`s foreign reserves currently total $496 billion, followed by China at $310 billion and Taiwan at US$170 billion, according to figures compiled in April by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority. Hong Kong, with 7.5 million people, has reserves of $114 billion, nearly seven times the total money in circulation in the territory. Other Asian treasuries are similarly bulging with dollars.
In answer to statements by Treasury Secretary Snow that the country should let its currency float upward, China`s central bank governor, Zhou Xiaochuan, said at the end of June that he sees no possibility that the yuan, which trades in a narrow band at about 8.28 to the dollar, would be revalued upward. Nor is there a possibility that it will rise against the currencies of any of its other major trading partners. China intends to eat everybody`s lunch.
Confronting the prospect of additional economically difficult integration into the World Trade Organization, and faced with the task of creating tens of millions of jobs for its sacked state-owned-enterprise workers, China`s leaders believe it is crucial to keep growth above 8 percent. Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) took half a point off growth in March through June. President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao have demanded, under a policy statement called ``Double Victory``, that growth continue at the maximum possible rate. There is not the slightest intention to help the United States cure its trade-balance problem by either making US exports to China more attractive or raising the price of exports to the US.
Likewise, Japan, vainly attempting for the 13th year to export its way out of its economic quagmire, is keeping the yen within a range near 115 to the US dollar. Since the beginning of the year, the Bank of Japan is believed to have bought as much as $60 billion in US securities - $30 billion in March alone - to keep the yen where it is. Its purchases have been increasing at a record pace.
Asia does not have to follow this path, Christopher Wood of CLSA says. ``Asian central banks could abandon their mercantilist policies. They could let their currencies rise, which is what would happen given Asia`s high savings rates if market forces were allowed to prevail. This would in turn boost Asia`s consumer demand cycle. This is also what should be happening from a theoretical standpoint, as satiated American consumers have already borrowed a lot and need to rebuild their balance sheets.``
Then, turning truly apocalyptic, Wood predicts that by the end of the decade there will no longer be a possibility that the world`s central banks can control the situation, and there will be a truly massive devaluation of the US dollar. ``The view here is that the US dollar will have disintegrated by the end of this decade. By then, the target price of gold bullion is US$3,400 an ounce.`` That is roughly 10 times gold`s current level. If that were to happen, Asia`s holders of dollars would be forced to start selling them or see their own reserves collapse. If they start to sell them, the price of America`s paper will fall even faster.
That is truly apocalypse now, or in 2010. Is it possible? The policymakers in the administration of President George W Bush in Washington are far more sanguine. They regard economists, often said to be the only field in which two individuals have shared the Nobel Prize for saying exactly the opposite things, to be basically irrelevant, and presumably by extension strategists. The administration, facing an election in a year and a half, and the Federal Reserve intend to keep the party going if they can.
x=x=x=x=x=x
(This entire response, though exactly reflecting my own views, is a cut and paste job from Asia Times Online. It fit perfectly so I am posting it. I couldn`t have said it better myself) :))
...SR
Is this a danger to the world economy?
For many years, America`s strong-dollar policy served the world and chiefly the United States very well. Their currencies cheap against the US dollar, Asian manufacturers profited by making relatively inexpensive exports and selling them in the United States at a healthy profit. In a kind cat-and-rat-farm analogy, in which the cats eat the rats, are skinned for their fur, and then are fed back to new rats, the Americans benefited by getting cheap goods that kept their consumer-led economy roaring. The financial communities benefited from the repatriation of those profits as the funds flowed back in a ceaseless waterfall into US stock markets, treasury and corporate bonds, money-market funds and other financial instruments.
But perpetual-motion machines don`t work. The monumental scale of Asia`s dollar reserves and the size of America`s deficit are starting to make economists and strategists nervous. Wayne Godley, an economist at the Levy Economics Institute in New York, writes: ``If the balance of trade does not improve, there is a danger that over a period of time the United States will find itself in a `debt trap`, with an accelerating deterioration both in its net foreign-asset position and in its overall current balance of payments (as net income paid abroad starts to explode). Such a trap would call imperatively for corrective action if it is not at some stage to unravel chaotically.``
It has been widely reported that the US must take in about $1.3 billion a day - about $55 million an hour - in foreign investment to finance its overseas debt. If that river of money falters or dries up, the difference must be made up by an inexorable fall in the value of the US currency. Indeed, if it had stopped already, the fall in the US stock markets since equities began to lose their luster in 2000 would have been catastrophic.
Certainly, Asia has been on a buying spree in US securities of all types. Despite a three-year economic pause in the United States, Asians bought a record $201 billion worth of long-term US paper in 2002. That includes another record $97 billion in US government securities. Asian central banks, with their enormous overhangs of US dollars, are increasingly doing the buying.
Over the past months, US Treasury Secretary John W Snow has begun to try to talk the US dollar down. It had fallen by more than 25 percent against the euro, the Eurozone`s common currency and the world`s other reserve legal tender, before increasingly optimistic economic news and a rising stock market checked the dollar`s fall. Although it has since risen against the euro by about 4 percent, many economists believe the dollar`s precarious position will cause the slide to continue.
The currencies of Asia, however, have almost all remained firmly tied to the dollar, either through currency pegs, reserve boards or, as in the case of Japan, as governments have bought dollars to keep their currencies static and thus to preserve their terms of trade.
Despite the US attempts to talk the dollar down, Asian governments regard any negative changes in their trade balances as inimical to their economies. While supposedly loosening restrictions so that their consumers can participate in a demand-led consumer revolution, Asia in fact is more dependent on exports today than at any time over the past two decades.
China, whose share of exports in total gross domestic product (GDP) averaged 10.8 percent in 1985-89, now is producing exports at 28.4 percent of GDP. South Korea`s exports were at 23 percent during the same period and now are at 54 percent of GDP. Hong Kong, then at 77.8 percent, is now at 153.5 percent of GDP. These figures are being repeated across virtually every economy in Asia. These exports continue to flow into the United States despite a three-year economic downturn that, if rationality were to prevail, should have slowed consumer purchases. The US Federal Reserve`s easy-money policy and record cuts in interest rates, however, have kept consumers buying at a feverish pace, far too often on credit.
``So long as America continues to secure easy funding, there is no pressure on policymakers in Washington to do anything other than run super-easy policies to try to keep their own consumer credit cycle going,`` says Christopher Wood, global emerging-markets equities strategist for CLSA Hong Kong. ``Like any profligate debtor, market discipline will only be imposed on America when foreign investors demand an interest-rate premium for owning dollars.``
Wood tends to grow apocalyptic. ``The current trend can continue for a while,`` he writes in his 110-page first-half 2003 overview of the world economy, published last month. ``But the longer American excesses are financed, the more inevitable will be the ultimate collapse of the US paper-dollar standard that has been in place ever since Richard Nixon broke with Bretton Woods by ending the dollar`s link with gold in 1971. The result will be a massive devaluation against gold of Asia`s hoard of dollar-exchange reserves.``
Japan`s foreign reserves currently total $496 billion, followed by China at $310 billion and Taiwan at US$170 billion, according to figures compiled in April by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority. Hong Kong, with 7.5 million people, has reserves of $114 billion, nearly seven times the total money in circulation in the territory. Other Asian treasuries are similarly bulging with dollars.
In answer to statements by Treasury Secretary Snow that the country should let its currency float upward, China`s central bank governor, Zhou Xiaochuan, said at the end of June that he sees no possibility that the yuan, which trades in a narrow band at about 8.28 to the dollar, would be revalued upward. Nor is there a possibility that it will rise against the currencies of any of its other major trading partners. China intends to eat everybody`s lunch.
Confronting the prospect of additional economically difficult integration into the World Trade Organization, and faced with the task of creating tens of millions of jobs for its sacked state-owned-enterprise workers, China`s leaders believe it is crucial to keep growth above 8 percent. Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) took half a point off growth in March through June. President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao have demanded, under a policy statement called ``Double Victory``, that growth continue at the maximum possible rate. There is not the slightest intention to help the United States cure its trade-balance problem by either making US exports to China more attractive or raising the price of exports to the US.
Likewise, Japan, vainly attempting for the 13th year to export its way out of its economic quagmire, is keeping the yen within a range near 115 to the US dollar. Since the beginning of the year, the Bank of Japan is believed to have bought as much as $60 billion in US securities - $30 billion in March alone - to keep the yen where it is. Its purchases have been increasing at a record pace.
Asia does not have to follow this path, Christopher Wood of CLSA says. ``Asian central banks could abandon their mercantilist policies. They could let their currencies rise, which is what would happen given Asia`s high savings rates if market forces were allowed to prevail. This would in turn boost Asia`s consumer demand cycle. This is also what should be happening from a theoretical standpoint, as satiated American consumers have already borrowed a lot and need to rebuild their balance sheets.``
Then, turning truly apocalyptic, Wood predicts that by the end of the decade there will no longer be a possibility that the world`s central banks can control the situation, and there will be a truly massive devaluation of the US dollar. ``The view here is that the US dollar will have disintegrated by the end of this decade. By then, the target price of gold bullion is US$3,400 an ounce.`` That is roughly 10 times gold`s current level. If that were to happen, Asia`s holders of dollars would be forced to start selling them or see their own reserves collapse. If they start to sell them, the price of America`s paper will fall even faster.
That is truly apocalypse now, or in 2010. Is it possible? The policymakers in the administration of President George W Bush in Washington are far more sanguine. They regard economists, often said to be the only field in which two individuals have shared the Nobel Prize for saying exactly the opposite things, to be basically irrelevant, and presumably by extension strategists. The administration, facing an election in a year and a half, and the Federal Reserve intend to keep the party going if they can.
x=x=x=x=x=x
(This entire response, though exactly reflecting my own views, is a cut and paste job from Asia Times Online. It fit perfectly so I am posting it. I couldn`t have said it better myself) :))
...SR
#84 Posted by zeemax on July 16, 2003 8:05:11 am
#83 by SR
[Where do you see the positive US “cash flow”? Please tell me?]
Of-course we come back to the same point .. it`s America`s unique ability to print endless amount of cash ! And get away with it !
Rgds
[Where do you see the positive US “cash flow”? Please tell me?]
Of-course we come back to the same point .. it`s America`s unique ability to print endless amount of cash ! And get away with it !
Rgds
#83 Posted by SR on July 14, 2003 7:13:36 pm
zeemax #82 [“… U.S. government obligations are $43 trillion, while total net-worth of U.S. households is just over $40 trillion. So US is technically insolvent. …”]
One cannot argue against facts. Technical insolvency of the US gets worse as each day passes. This is the point I’ve been arguing for some time now but most people are unable to even contemplate the possibility. But still facts are inconvenient little things, they keep raising their ugly heads.
Congressman Ron Paul stood in the US House of Reprsentatives, on July 10, 2003, and mentioned the same $43 Trillion that had I mentioned in the article. But the congressman made a slight error in the speech. These $43 Trillion are NOT the total obligations (that number would be infinitely larger), this $43 Trillion is the present value of the SHORTFALL. This shortfall is on the obligations that are treated as being “off the books” and we don’t see them mentioned anywhere in public, not even in the annual budget documents. Paul O’Neil, former Secretary Treasury, tried to include them in the 2004 budget document and got fired. These are numbers that NO ONE in the American media is even whispering about (then you tell me that there is no censorship?), yet these are unclassified public records and anyone can research them from the Congressional records. This $43 Trillion shortage is in the so-called “un-funded” retirement benefits that are enshrined in US Law.
It is important to understand that the officially declared annual US federal budget deficits and current account deficits that keep piling up, year after year, and are now in the vicinity of $8 Trillion, plus the private house hold and corporate debt all of which in their totality approach $32 Trillion are NOT INCLUDED in the above mentioned $43 Trillion shortfall. So if truthful accounting is done the Grand Total of the ocean of red ink that is going to sink the ship is (32 + 43) or $75 Trillion. This is simply an impossible situation to get out of without suffering any adverse consequences.
zeemax: [“… One can be `technically` insolvent but still remain a `going concern` and continue in business. It all depends on the cash flow …Citibank, although technically insolvent, was still a going concern, and had an immense franchise. The same applies to the US. ..”]
I am very glad you brought up the example of Citibank. First, I totally agree that “technical insolvency” of a “going concern” is potentially a manageable condition. But to go through chapter 11 reorganization an entity has to do some major structural re-adjustments. Let’s take your Citibank example. During the crisis period, if you remember, the company stock was driven into the dirt.
Likewise with the United States. It is a great “going concern” and it shall keep going no doubt. I never for a second suggest that US will go totally belly up. No, that is not happening. What will, however, happen is that the present reality will have to change in fundamental ways and change drastically.
If we use the analogy of a corporation to describe the financial parallels with a country we can explain things in simpler terms. The GDP of a country is analogous to the Total Gross Revenue of a corporation. The currency of the country is akin to the common stock of a corporation and the interest rate of a country is like the dividend of a corporation. If you see the logic of this analogy between a country and a corporation, then it must be very clear to you that as the country goes through “reorganization” its stock price may plummet in the market. Likewise, with the above mentioned problems and the low interest rates, I don’t care how much the Asian exporters try they will eventually fail to keep the dollar propped up and the decline of the dollar is simply an inevitability.
To say that the US will eventually come out of it, is not being disputed. Of course the US economy will eventually come to a new equilibrium but at what level? only time will tell.
zeemax: [“…How will the (US) cash flow become adverse? I don`t see it happening unless the world`s monetary system undergoes a major reversal, or everyone stops exporting to US. Do you see that happening? …”]
Where do you see the positive US “cash flow”? Please tell me? Revenues are at steeply lower and expenditure is skyrocketing. At some point US dollar holders world wide are going to get nervous when they continue to see their dollar value shrinking like an ice cube melting in the sun and their returns dimishing. It`s not a question of ``IF`` it`s a question of ``WHEN.``
zeemax: [“… US to create dollars out of thin air and still manage to keep inflation and interest rates low…”]
If you actually believe the “low inflation” story-line that the government claims, then I have a deep water submarine to sell you at a great price. It sits in the middle of the desert.
…SR
One cannot argue against facts. Technical insolvency of the US gets worse as each day passes. This is the point I’ve been arguing for some time now but most people are unable to even contemplate the possibility. But still facts are inconvenient little things, they keep raising their ugly heads.
Congressman Ron Paul stood in the US House of Reprsentatives, on July 10, 2003, and mentioned the same $43 Trillion that had I mentioned in the article. But the congressman made a slight error in the speech. These $43 Trillion are NOT the total obligations (that number would be infinitely larger), this $43 Trillion is the present value of the SHORTFALL. This shortfall is on the obligations that are treated as being “off the books” and we don’t see them mentioned anywhere in public, not even in the annual budget documents. Paul O’Neil, former Secretary Treasury, tried to include them in the 2004 budget document and got fired. These are numbers that NO ONE in the American media is even whispering about (then you tell me that there is no censorship?), yet these are unclassified public records and anyone can research them from the Congressional records. This $43 Trillion shortage is in the so-called “un-funded” retirement benefits that are enshrined in US Law.
It is important to understand that the officially declared annual US federal budget deficits and current account deficits that keep piling up, year after year, and are now in the vicinity of $8 Trillion, plus the private house hold and corporate debt all of which in their totality approach $32 Trillion are NOT INCLUDED in the above mentioned $43 Trillion shortfall. So if truthful accounting is done the Grand Total of the ocean of red ink that is going to sink the ship is (32 + 43) or $75 Trillion. This is simply an impossible situation to get out of without suffering any adverse consequences.
zeemax: [“… One can be `technically` insolvent but still remain a `going concern` and continue in business. It all depends on the cash flow …Citibank, although technically insolvent, was still a going concern, and had an immense franchise. The same applies to the US. ..”]
I am very glad you brought up the example of Citibank. First, I totally agree that “technical insolvency” of a “going concern” is potentially a manageable condition. But to go through chapter 11 reorganization an entity has to do some major structural re-adjustments. Let’s take your Citibank example. During the crisis period, if you remember, the company stock was driven into the dirt.
Likewise with the United States. It is a great “going concern” and it shall keep going no doubt. I never for a second suggest that US will go totally belly up. No, that is not happening. What will, however, happen is that the present reality will have to change in fundamental ways and change drastically.
If we use the analogy of a corporation to describe the financial parallels with a country we can explain things in simpler terms. The GDP of a country is analogous to the Total Gross Revenue of a corporation. The currency of the country is akin to the common stock of a corporation and the interest rate of a country is like the dividend of a corporation. If you see the logic of this analogy between a country and a corporation, then it must be very clear to you that as the country goes through “reorganization” its stock price may plummet in the market. Likewise, with the above mentioned problems and the low interest rates, I don’t care how much the Asian exporters try they will eventually fail to keep the dollar propped up and the decline of the dollar is simply an inevitability.
To say that the US will eventually come out of it, is not being disputed. Of course the US economy will eventually come to a new equilibrium but at what level? only time will tell.
zeemax: [“…How will the (US) cash flow become adverse? I don`t see it happening unless the world`s monetary system undergoes a major reversal, or everyone stops exporting to US. Do you see that happening? …”]
Where do you see the positive US “cash flow”? Please tell me? Revenues are at steeply lower and expenditure is skyrocketing. At some point US dollar holders world wide are going to get nervous when they continue to see their dollar value shrinking like an ice cube melting in the sun and their returns dimishing. It`s not a question of ``IF`` it`s a question of ``WHEN.``
zeemax: [“… US to create dollars out of thin air and still manage to keep inflation and interest rates low…”]
If you actually believe the “low inflation” story-line that the government claims, then I have a deep water submarine to sell you at a great price. It sits in the middle of the desert.
…SR
#82 Posted by zeemax on July 14, 2003 10:57:47 am
#81 by SR
I read the speech by Dr. Ron Paul. You had e-mailed the link to me as well. Very revealing facts and very profound thoughts.
I agree with everything in it and all of what you say re the economy of US. So the dollars are being pumped in using all of these various wars, and increasing the size of the Government e.g. the Department of Homeland Security, instead of reducing the Government. Now I get the picture. So all of this additional money supply is coming from non-productive expenditure.
Yes it does appear the US economy is on an edge. The most interesting statistic that sticks to my mind is that the total U.S. government obligations are $43 trillion, while total net-worth of U.S. households is just over $40 trillion. So US is technically insolvent.
However, being technically insolvent is different from being bankrupt. One can be `technically` insolvent but still remain a `going concern` and continue in business. It all depends on the cash flow. Citibank was technically insolvent in late 80`s when they had to write off their South American assets, and Prince Talal Bin Aziz bailed them out by buying, if I`m correct, 30% of their shares. I`m sure you know about that episode. Why he did that was beacuse Citibank, although technically insdolvent, was still a going concern, and had an immense franchise. The same applies to the US. So far, US is a `going concern` even being insolvent, and has a huge franchise over the world.
How will the cash flow become adverse? I don`t see it happening unless the world`s monetary system undergoes a major reversal, or everyone stops exporting to US. Do you see that happening?
The unique ability of US to create dollars out of thin air and still manage to keep inflation and interest rates low, stems from the world monetary settlement system, which in turn stems from everyone`s need to export to the US domestic market.
Just a thought, and I have expressed it before. The 9/11 attacks may not really have been aimed at the twin towers. I think they were actually aimed at the US consumerism. Maybe there`s an economist in Bin Laden`s coterie as well.
Cheers.
I read the speech by Dr. Ron Paul. You had e-mailed the link to me as well. Very revealing facts and very profound thoughts.
I agree with everything in it and all of what you say re the economy of US. So the dollars are being pumped in using all of these various wars, and increasing the size of the Government e.g. the Department of Homeland Security, instead of reducing the Government. Now I get the picture. So all of this additional money supply is coming from non-productive expenditure.
Yes it does appear the US economy is on an edge. The most interesting statistic that sticks to my mind is that the total U.S. government obligations are $43 trillion, while total net-worth of U.S. households is just over $40 trillion. So US is technically insolvent.
However, being technically insolvent is different from being bankrupt. One can be `technically` insolvent but still remain a `going concern` and continue in business. It all depends on the cash flow. Citibank was technically insolvent in late 80`s when they had to write off their South American assets, and Prince Talal Bin Aziz bailed them out by buying, if I`m correct, 30% of their shares. I`m sure you know about that episode. Why he did that was beacuse Citibank, although technically insdolvent, was still a going concern, and had an immense franchise. The same applies to the US. So far, US is a `going concern` even being insolvent, and has a huge franchise over the world.
How will the cash flow become adverse? I don`t see it happening unless the world`s monetary system undergoes a major reversal, or everyone stops exporting to US. Do you see that happening?
The unique ability of US to create dollars out of thin air and still manage to keep inflation and interest rates low, stems from the world monetary settlement system, which in turn stems from everyone`s need to export to the US domestic market.
Just a thought, and I have expressed it before. The 9/11 attacks may not really have been aimed at the twin towers. I think they were actually aimed at the US consumerism. Maybe there`s an economist in Bin Laden`s coterie as well.
Cheers.
#81 Posted by SR on July 13, 2003 9:12:41 pm
zeemax #80 [“… my … arguments against … impending Doom for the dollar… has … been … how can the Dollar weaken when the rest of the world is compelled … to keep it propped up ? I`m glad you`ve come round to that view. …”]
I have not said anything different. The only difference we have had is that you believe that the dollar will continue to win out indefinitely, whereas I hold that the scam has lasted long enough and we are approaching the beginning of the end. In my article I wrote:
The foreigners, particularly Asians, are caught in a monkey trap of their own that has worked wonderfully for America, until now. But the scales could tip the other way at some point.
In order to keep their own exports going they have become addicted to shipping their goods to America and are therefore willing to accept more Federal Reserve issued paper (a.k.a. ‘dollars’) in exchange. For three decades now they have been willing to trade their materials, their sweat equity, and their living standards in exchange for paper that America prints at essentially no cost. How long will they keep playing this game is anybody’s guess? Establishment professionals tell us that this gravy train will never leave the American station. They claim that the foreigners, chiefly Asians, cannot afford to lose the American market and therefore the dollar will never lose its lure.
However, as the exporting countries’ dollar savings get cheaper and cheaper because of excessive printing by the US mint, at some point the pain of owning those ever-growing mountains of dollars, whose value is ever-shrinking, will become greater than the pain of losing their exports to America. When that happens, the party shall be over.
zeemax [“…(inflation is not necessary) if the excess … currency created is … sucked back out of the money supply … through treasury bills operations ... at a huge cost to the central bank (which ultimately impacts fiscal resources) due to unfavorable interest differentials between Dollar and all the world`s currencies except the J.Yen. … if a central bank decides not to sterilize due to fiscal constraints, your contention will be correct and the excess liquidity floating around will be inflationary, otherwise not. …”]
You are thinking with the mind-set of a central banker from a non-reserve currency country. If you were a US Federal Reserve official you would not have cared (as Fed officials don’t) that your dastardly deed of monetary manipulation “…ultimately impacts fiscal resources… due to unfavorable interest rate differentials…”
If you, or any of your counterparts in other non-US central banks around the world were busy creating more and more of your country’s fiat currency (at the rate of 17% of GDP per year) you would have sharply rising interest rates, especially at the long end of the yield curve. You couldn’t possibly hope to increase money supply with such abandon as does Greenspan and still “manage” to keep the thirty year treasury bond close to four and a half percent. They do that through their “open market operations.’ This is what you Karachi wallas call dada-geerey.
Please indulge my digression for a minute: I want to rant and rave.
(The US Fed, unlike the central banks of Somethingstan or Whathaveyouland, is NOT a federal government owned entity. The US Fed, as you surely know but some other reader may not, is a private corporation owned by an international cartel of big private banks. The Fed operates (for profit) under the charter of the federal government.
The ‘ultimate owners’ of the Fed are Rothschild Bank of London, Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Rothschild Bank of Berlin, Lehman Brothers of New York, Lazard Brothers of Paris, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Israel Moses Seif Banks, Goldman, Sachs of Italy, Chase Manhattan Bank of New York, Warburg Bank of Amsterdam.
It is the biggest scam imaginable. It is worse than robbery.
But if you go to the Fed’s website they plainly lie and deny this fact in an outright lie and claim that the Fed is “…not owned by anyone, it is an independent entity...” That is pure horse manure.
If you look through the Fed’s website, burried inside their FAQ section you will also find the statements, that contradict the lie quoted above:
Who owns the Fed?
Although Fed member banks own stock in Reserve Banks, their ownership rights are restricted. If the Federal Reserve Banks were to be liquidated and their assets sold, Fed member banks would only receive back what they paid for their stock. The value of the Fed`s stock over and above that would be returned to the U.S. Treasury.
Where does the Fed receive its income?
Most of the Fed`s earnings come from its portfolio of U.S. government securities. The interest on them, for example, accounted for most of the Fed`s $20.9 billion operating income in 1994. From its revenues the Fed pays its expenses and a 6 percent statutory dividend on its member banks` stock. The remainder is returned to the U.S. Treasury. In 1994 the Fed paid approximately $20.7 billion to the U.S. Treasury…” ) end of rant.
This private for-profit cartel called the Fed, “creates” new money out of nothing and injects it into the economy through bank liquidity and also lends it to the US Treasury (by purchasing T-bills) and earns interest income that is paid by the US taxpayer. This is a mechanism of transfering wealth (in the form of interest on T-bills) from the taxpayers to the private banks that own the stock of the Federal Reserve. The creation of this new money costs the Fed absolutely nothing and they earn interest on it which is essentially a kind of parasitic blood sucking. How can this be good for retaining the exchange rate value of the dollar?
I urge you to check out the 73rd annual report of the Bank of International Settlements which was issued in June 2003. I`m sure you have it at your office. If you`ve looked at it, you`ll know that its very long but well divided up into sections. Even the BIS is nervous about the dollar. The report raises serious concerns about the US `twin deficits,` and this inspite the fact that BIS is a loyal dog of the US Fed (The US is the largest stockholder of BIS -- 17% -- and all the US Fed governors are also its board members. BTW, SBP is NOT a member-- why??) They point out in the report that the huge US current account deficit is distributed such that at most half of it is with those Asian countries (ex-Japan) that have their currency either pegged to the USD, e.g., China, or they are engaged in ``propping up`` the USD by purchase of USD assets and/or debasing their own currencies in the race for competative devaluation that I referred to in the article. According to the BIS report, therefore, most of the USD value errosion takes place with respect to the Euro , Yen, Loony, Aussie, Kiwi, and other European currencies (ex-Swiss). So my friend read the writing on the wall. There is way too much dirty linnen stinking up the US financial system, and indeed, the global fiat monetary system. All the gung-ho US Tech BULLs here should take note. BUY GOLD and SILVER for your family`s financial insurance. You`ll be glad you did.
Zeemax: [“…It certainly does appear from the phenomenal increase in US Money Supply that US is trying to stir up consumer demand - but using what tools are these dollars being pumped in? … I know of no large infrastructural projects underway, and the tax cuts have not been effected yet. What seems probable is that Fed is retiring a proportionate amount of Government Debt owed to banks and the general public. Is that the case? …”]
There are no public works projects like they were during FDR’s New Deal or Johnson’e Great Society. What you have right now is the Perpetual Preemptive War. War against Drugs. War against Terrorism. War against Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights.
As far as “retiring debt” is concerned, you must be joking. The tresury debt is rising is rising faster than the space shuttle rises after launch. I am not joking. The national debt ceiling was just raised by congress by almost a trillion dollars last month.
I strongly urge you to read a speech by Congressman Dr. Ron Paul, who is a republican member of the US House of Representatives, from Texas. He gave this speech on July 10, 2003.
Please read it at this web address:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul110.html
cheers...
...SR
I have not said anything different. The only difference we have had is that you believe that the dollar will continue to win out indefinitely, whereas I hold that the scam has lasted long enough and we are approaching the beginning of the end. In my article I wrote:
The foreigners, particularly Asians, are caught in a monkey trap of their own that has worked wonderfully for America, until now. But the scales could tip the other way at some point.
In order to keep their own exports going they have become addicted to shipping their goods to America and are therefore willing to accept more Federal Reserve issued paper (a.k.a. ‘dollars’) in exchange. For three decades now they have been willing to trade their materials, their sweat equity, and their living standards in exchange for paper that America prints at essentially no cost. How long will they keep playing this game is anybody’s guess? Establishment professionals tell us that this gravy train will never leave the American station. They claim that the foreigners, chiefly Asians, cannot afford to lose the American market and therefore the dollar will never lose its lure.
However, as the exporting countries’ dollar savings get cheaper and cheaper because of excessive printing by the US mint, at some point the pain of owning those ever-growing mountains of dollars, whose value is ever-shrinking, will become greater than the pain of losing their exports to America. When that happens, the party shall be over.
zeemax [“…(inflation is not necessary) if the excess … currency created is … sucked back out of the money supply … through treasury bills operations ... at a huge cost to the central bank (which ultimately impacts fiscal resources) due to unfavorable interest differentials between Dollar and all the world`s currencies except the J.Yen. … if a central bank decides not to sterilize due to fiscal constraints, your contention will be correct and the excess liquidity floating around will be inflationary, otherwise not. …”]
You are thinking with the mind-set of a central banker from a non-reserve currency country. If you were a US Federal Reserve official you would not have cared (as Fed officials don’t) that your dastardly deed of monetary manipulation “…ultimately impacts fiscal resources… due to unfavorable interest rate differentials…”
If you, or any of your counterparts in other non-US central banks around the world were busy creating more and more of your country’s fiat currency (at the rate of 17% of GDP per year) you would have sharply rising interest rates, especially at the long end of the yield curve. You couldn’t possibly hope to increase money supply with such abandon as does Greenspan and still “manage” to keep the thirty year treasury bond close to four and a half percent. They do that through their “open market operations.’ This is what you Karachi wallas call dada-geerey.
Please indulge my digression for a minute: I want to rant and rave.
(The US Fed, unlike the central banks of Somethingstan or Whathaveyouland, is NOT a federal government owned entity. The US Fed, as you surely know but some other reader may not, is a private corporation owned by an international cartel of big private banks. The Fed operates (for profit) under the charter of the federal government.
The ‘ultimate owners’ of the Fed are Rothschild Bank of London, Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Rothschild Bank of Berlin, Lehman Brothers of New York, Lazard Brothers of Paris, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Israel Moses Seif Banks, Goldman, Sachs of Italy, Chase Manhattan Bank of New York, Warburg Bank of Amsterdam.
It is the biggest scam imaginable. It is worse than robbery.
But if you go to the Fed’s website they plainly lie and deny this fact in an outright lie and claim that the Fed is “…not owned by anyone, it is an independent entity...” That is pure horse manure.
If you look through the Fed’s website, burried inside their FAQ section you will also find the statements, that contradict the lie quoted above:
Who owns the Fed?
Although Fed member banks own stock in Reserve Banks, their ownership rights are restricted. If the Federal Reserve Banks were to be liquidated and their assets sold, Fed member banks would only receive back what they paid for their stock. The value of the Fed`s stock over and above that would be returned to the U.S. Treasury.
Where does the Fed receive its income?
Most of the Fed`s earnings come from its portfolio of U.S. government securities. The interest on them, for example, accounted for most of the Fed`s $20.9 billion operating income in 1994. From its revenues the Fed pays its expenses and a 6 percent statutory dividend on its member banks` stock. The remainder is returned to the U.S. Treasury. In 1994 the Fed paid approximately $20.7 billion to the U.S. Treasury…” ) end of rant.
This private for-profit cartel called the Fed, “creates” new money out of nothing and injects it into the economy through bank liquidity and also lends it to the US Treasury (by purchasing T-bills) and earns interest income that is paid by the US taxpayer. This is a mechanism of transfering wealth (in the form of interest on T-bills) from the taxpayers to the private banks that own the stock of the Federal Reserve. The creation of this new money costs the Fed absolutely nothing and they earn interest on it which is essentially a kind of parasitic blood sucking. How can this be good for retaining the exchange rate value of the dollar?
I urge you to check out the 73rd annual report of the Bank of International Settlements which was issued in June 2003. I`m sure you have it at your office. If you`ve looked at it, you`ll know that its very long but well divided up into sections. Even the BIS is nervous about the dollar. The report raises serious concerns about the US `twin deficits,` and this inspite the fact that BIS is a loyal dog of the US Fed (The US is the largest stockholder of BIS -- 17% -- and all the US Fed governors are also its board members. BTW, SBP is NOT a member-- why??) They point out in the report that the huge US current account deficit is distributed such that at most half of it is with those Asian countries (ex-Japan) that have their currency either pegged to the USD, e.g., China, or they are engaged in ``propping up`` the USD by purchase of USD assets and/or debasing their own currencies in the race for competative devaluation that I referred to in the article. According to the BIS report, therefore, most of the USD value errosion takes place with respect to the Euro , Yen, Loony, Aussie, Kiwi, and other European currencies (ex-Swiss). So my friend read the writing on the wall. There is way too much dirty linnen stinking up the US financial system, and indeed, the global fiat monetary system. All the gung-ho US Tech BULLs here should take note. BUY GOLD and SILVER for your family`s financial insurance. You`ll be glad you did.
Zeemax: [“…It certainly does appear from the phenomenal increase in US Money Supply that US is trying to stir up consumer demand - but using what tools are these dollars being pumped in? … I know of no large infrastructural projects underway, and the tax cuts have not been effected yet. What seems probable is that Fed is retiring a proportionate amount of Government Debt owed to banks and the general public. Is that the case? …”]
There are no public works projects like they were during FDR’s New Deal or Johnson’e Great Society. What you have right now is the Perpetual Preemptive War. War against Drugs. War against Terrorism. War against Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights.
As far as “retiring debt” is concerned, you must be joking. The tresury debt is rising is rising faster than the space shuttle rises after launch. I am not joking. The national debt ceiling was just raised by congress by almost a trillion dollars last month.
I strongly urge you to read a speech by Congressman Dr. Ron Paul, who is a republican member of the US House of Representatives, from Texas. He gave this speech on July 10, 2003.
Please read it at this web address:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul110.html
cheers...
...SR
#80 Posted by zeemax on July 12, 2003 7:55:50 am
#79 by SR
[Today`s Financial Times reports that the German Chancellor wants European Central Bank to weaken the Euro against dollar.]
I hope you recall my oft repeated arguments against your contention about impending Doom for the dollar. My argument has always been that how can the Dollar weaken when the rest of the world is compelled by default to keep it propped up ? I`m glad you`ve come round to that view.
[To buy dollars your central bank has to create more of your own currency, and this is inflationary. ]
Not necessarily so; i.e if the excess local currency created is `sterilized` i.e. sucked back out of the money supply by the central bank through treasury bills operations. Sterilization is however at a huge cost to the central bank (which ultimately impacts fiscal resources) due to unfavorable interest differentials between Dollar and all the world`s currencies except the J.Yen. Thus, if a central bank decides not to sterilize due to fiscal constraints, your contention will be correct and the excess liquidity floating around will be inflationary, otherwise not.
It certainly does appear from the phenomenal increase in US Money Supply that US is trying to stir up consumer demand - but using what tools are these dollars being pumped in? I mean I know of no large infrastructural projects underway, and the tax cuts have not been effected yet. What seems probable is that Fed is retiring a proportionate amount of Government Debt owed to banks and the general public. Is that the case? Your research into this will throw much needed light on the issue before your question re `the ultimate winner -- inflation or deflation?`, as well as the future of fiat money, can be answered.
Rgds
[Today`s Financial Times reports that the German Chancellor wants European Central Bank to weaken the Euro against dollar.]
I hope you recall my oft repeated arguments against your contention about impending Doom for the dollar. My argument has always been that how can the Dollar weaken when the rest of the world is compelled by default to keep it propped up ? I`m glad you`ve come round to that view.
[To buy dollars your central bank has to create more of your own currency, and this is inflationary. ]
Not necessarily so; i.e if the excess local currency created is `sterilized` i.e. sucked back out of the money supply by the central bank through treasury bills operations. Sterilization is however at a huge cost to the central bank (which ultimately impacts fiscal resources) due to unfavorable interest differentials between Dollar and all the world`s currencies except the J.Yen. Thus, if a central bank decides not to sterilize due to fiscal constraints, your contention will be correct and the excess liquidity floating around will be inflationary, otherwise not.
It certainly does appear from the phenomenal increase in US Money Supply that US is trying to stir up consumer demand - but using what tools are these dollars being pumped in? I mean I know of no large infrastructural projects underway, and the tax cuts have not been effected yet. What seems probable is that Fed is retiring a proportionate amount of Government Debt owed to banks and the general public. Is that the case? Your research into this will throw much needed light on the issue before your question re `the ultimate winner -- inflation or deflation?`, as well as the future of fiat money, can be answered.
Rgds
#79 Posted by SR on July 12, 2003 12:05:36 am
I gasped today when I saw the latest statistic on the broad money supply (M-3). For the week ended June 20, money supply just exploded by a hefty $63.1 billion. These are brand spanking new dollars. ``Hot off the press`` so to speak (only they are ``electronic`` and not ``paper`` dollars, so it didn`t even cost paper and ink). Add that to the two previous weeks of $20 billion each, and you have a bit over $100 billion added to the money supply in the last three weeks alone. That`s at an annualized rate of around $1.7 trillion.
Folks, these are US dollars that the Fed simply “creates” out of thin air. The fact is that the creation of new money in the US has gone totally wild.
In the meantime, the US trade deficit widened to $41.8 billion, close to its widest ever for a third straight month -- the US demand for imported good continues to rise. Thus, the US trade deficit is almost running at an annualized half a trillion dollars.
Beijing announced yesterday that Chinese industrial production surged 17 percent in the first half of 2003 along with a 33 percent rise in exports.
Today`s Financial Times reports that the German Chancellor wants European Central Bank to weaken the Euro against dollar.
The battle for exports continues, and one of the weapons is competitive devaluation. These are strange economic events. The idea is to keep your country`s currency ``cheap`` against the dollar. Therefore you reduce interest rates, thus making your currency less attractive to hold. Or your central bank buys dollars to keep the dollar strong against your own country`s currency.
To buy dollars your central bank has to create more of your own currency, and this is inflationary. On top of this, selling your products to the US means dollars coming into your country. As the billions of dollars build up in foreign nations, these nations build factories and other sources of production. World production (particularly in Asia) continues to rise, and this global increase in production means that all the over-produced goods cannot be digested by the consumers of the world.
Thus we have the pressure of world deflation as nations produce an ever-increasing amount of goods and yes, services. To offset the forces of deflation, the US floods the system with liquidity. Can the US stave off deflation? That`s what the battle is all about today.
So far, there seems to be a stand-off. The ultimate winner -- inflation or deflation? No one knowst know yet, but ultimately, I believe, inflation wins even if deflationary winds blow at gale force in some areas. Either way, the future of fiat money (i.e., purely ``paper money`` that the government can create by decree) world-wide is bleak.
…SR
Folks, these are US dollars that the Fed simply “creates” out of thin air. The fact is that the creation of new money in the US has gone totally wild.
In the meantime, the US trade deficit widened to $41.8 billion, close to its widest ever for a third straight month -- the US demand for imported good continues to rise. Thus, the US trade deficit is almost running at an annualized half a trillion dollars.
Beijing announced yesterday that Chinese industrial production surged 17 percent in the first half of 2003 along with a 33 percent rise in exports.
Today`s Financial Times reports that the German Chancellor wants European Central Bank to weaken the Euro against dollar.
The battle for exports continues, and one of the weapons is competitive devaluation. These are strange economic events. The idea is to keep your country`s currency ``cheap`` against the dollar. Therefore you reduce interest rates, thus making your currency less attractive to hold. Or your central bank buys dollars to keep the dollar strong against your own country`s currency.
To buy dollars your central bank has to create more of your own currency, and this is inflationary. On top of this, selling your products to the US means dollars coming into your country. As the billions of dollars build up in foreign nations, these nations build factories and other sources of production. World production (particularly in Asia) continues to rise, and this global increase in production means that all the over-produced goods cannot be digested by the consumers of the world.
Thus we have the pressure of world deflation as nations produce an ever-increasing amount of goods and yes, services. To offset the forces of deflation, the US floods the system with liquidity. Can the US stave off deflation? That`s what the battle is all about today.
So far, there seems to be a stand-off. The ultimate winner -- inflation or deflation? No one knowst know yet, but ultimately, I believe, inflation wins even if deflationary winds blow at gale force in some areas. Either way, the future of fiat money (i.e., purely ``paper money`` that the government can create by decree) world-wide is bleak.
…SR
#78 Posted by zeemax on July 11, 2003 11:31:31 am
#77 by soysauce
``Maybe they are all independently wealthy singles to whom Chowk is the family.``
You got it !
Rgds
``Maybe they are all independently wealthy singles to whom Chowk is the family.``
You got it !
Rgds
#77 Posted by soysauce on July 10, 2003 4:45:39 pm
SR
I was being facetious in my comment. Many of the prolific interactors here have responsible jobs (that`s what they say) and families. I cannot figure out how they find the time to be here for what seems like several hours a day. Many of them also are emotionally invested in the discussions here. Maybe they are all independently wealthy singles to whom Chowk is the family.
I was being facetious in my comment. Many of the prolific interactors here have responsible jobs (that`s what they say) and families. I cannot figure out how they find the time to be here for what seems like several hours a day. Many of them also are emotionally invested in the discussions here. Maybe they are all independently wealthy singles to whom Chowk is the family.
#76 Posted by SR on July 10, 2003 10:00:24 am
#64 tahmed32 [“…it was funny the way SR was meticulously correcting (h)is figures… and apologizing for the erratum. …”]
There is no shame or hesitation in recognizing one’s errors. As to why I even bothered to correct an error even if it was not significant to the main argument as it didn’t change the big picture? It a matter of (1) personal credibility and (2) an attempt to avoid running afoul of any punitive government regulations.
When one shares a perspective in a public forum it is an automatic expectation that they have done everything possible to use correct information. Particularly objective facts and data points must be valid and accurate. I take down copious notes from the various source documents that I go through during the day. Some are web based sources some printed hard copies and after a while it becomes hard to recall certain particulars. Therefore, I keep a notebook handy. It just so happened, that for some reason the incorrect number got transcribed (45 instead of 43) into my notebook and that is what I used as a ready reference while writing the article. When I later discovered the error I felt that a known error must be acknowledged and corrected, so that is why I did it, and I don’t mid if you find it funny. I do my best to avoid factual errors when possible.
The other reason for being ever so careful is that I don’t want Chowk.com web site to get blamed, or held responsible for, anything I may write. It particularly applies to financial stuff presented in a public forum and I being a free lancer as opposed to a licensed professional, it behooves me to not let false information through as far as possible. This is a matter of CYA (cover your ass). The interfering, overbearing, incompetent morons who run various over-bloated government bureaucracies (whose budgets demand a never-ending supply of wrongdoers to be penalized) are very good at harassing the little guy (while they are unable to curtail big institutional wrong doing) and they are the reason for the ridiculous and irritating DISCLAIMERS one sees everywhere in any financial publications. I resent it, but can’t do much for they are the one’s who control the prisons and the police force. You and I are merely sheep to the slaughter. According to a recent study issued by the Cato Institute, the various regulatory agencies of the federal government collectively issued well over thirty thousand pages of new regulations or amendments during the year 2002.
If you haven’t seen it already, I urge you to go to your neighborhood BLOCKBUSTER and rent a movie titled “Brazil.” It came out during the 1980s. That accurately (but in satire form) reflects my point view. Besides, you’ll like the movie.
#75 arjun_m
I think now we each understand what the other is saying, and that is a happy thing. Thanks a bunch.
…SR
There is no shame or hesitation in recognizing one’s errors. As to why I even bothered to correct an error even if it was not significant to the main argument as it didn’t change the big picture? It a matter of (1) personal credibility and (2) an attempt to avoid running afoul of any punitive government regulations.
When one shares a perspective in a public forum it is an automatic expectation that they have done everything possible to use correct information. Particularly objective facts and data points must be valid and accurate. I take down copious notes from the various source documents that I go through during the day. Some are web based sources some printed hard copies and after a while it becomes hard to recall certain particulars. Therefore, I keep a notebook handy. It just so happened, that for some reason the incorrect number got transcribed (45 instead of 43) into my notebook and that is what I used as a ready reference while writing the article. When I later discovered the error I felt that a known error must be acknowledged and corrected, so that is why I did it, and I don’t mid if you find it funny. I do my best to avoid factual errors when possible.
The other reason for being ever so careful is that I don’t want Chowk.com web site to get blamed, or held responsible for, anything I may write. It particularly applies to financial stuff presented in a public forum and I being a free lancer as opposed to a licensed professional, it behooves me to not let false information through as far as possible. This is a matter of CYA (cover your ass). The interfering, overbearing, incompetent morons who run various over-bloated government bureaucracies (whose budgets demand a never-ending supply of wrongdoers to be penalized) are very good at harassing the little guy (while they are unable to curtail big institutional wrong doing) and they are the reason for the ridiculous and irritating DISCLAIMERS one sees everywhere in any financial publications. I resent it, but can’t do much for they are the one’s who control the prisons and the police force. You and I are merely sheep to the slaughter. According to a recent study issued by the Cato Institute, the various regulatory agencies of the federal government collectively issued well over thirty thousand pages of new regulations or amendments during the year 2002.
If you haven’t seen it already, I urge you to go to your neighborhood BLOCKBUSTER and rent a movie titled “Brazil.” It came out during the 1980s. That accurately (but in satire form) reflects my point view. Besides, you’ll like the movie.
#75 arjun_m
I think now we each understand what the other is saying, and that is a happy thing. Thanks a bunch.
…SR
#75 Posted by arjun_m on July 10, 2003 8:59:57 am
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#74 Posted by SR on July 10, 2003 7:27:15 am
#68 by arjun_m [“… manufacturers who assemble …(foreign)… made components in the US. …that doesn`t sound right …It would sound right if a ``Made in America`` was a USP and could win a large market share. …give us … examples? …”]
Thank you for raising this important question. I fully appreciate your skepticism. But first let me get some linguistic clarity.
This is a dry and boring subject matter for most people so sometimes I try to use cliches to spice up the writing style yet keep it cogent as well. It is possible to inaccurately convey the essence, though I do try to strike a balance and not to sacrifice clarity while make light of the matter.
“Made in America” was used as a cliché. I didn’t mean that they attach a small label that actually has those words written on it. Of course, a mere “made in America” label will not stimulate sales and nor did I mean to imply so.
The idea was to emphasize that a US ‘manufacturer’ could ‘produce’ and market a ‘black box.’ The sales proceeds of the ‘black box.’ (i.e., our end-product) would go to the top line revenue figure of the financial statement of the US manufacturer. The last bit of process to ‘assemble’ the black-box together may be a proprietary knowledge dependent assembly step consisting of putting together several component parts. Several of those components are no longer produced at the in-house facilities of the manufacturer because they could be imported cheaper from abroad. The cost of the component parts is passed on to the customer with a price mark-up added to it. This price mark-up is also counted towards ‘enhanced worker productivity,’ because now fewer employees work in the assembly plant and such measures as sales per employee, cash flow per employee or earnings per employee look a lot better than they did when the labor cost of fabricating the component parts was included in company payroll. Now that component part’s labor cost has been incurred by someone else overseas and is not a part of our payroll in the US plant. The plant owner’s book keeper will treat the entire cost of the component part as a single item under some other column such as ‘parts and supplies.’ This, in my view artificially enhances the ‘worker productivity.’ The worker productivity may actually also have improved due to more stream-lined processes and use of automation, but the extra bit that is added to enhance productivity even further is the dishonest part. It should be considered under cost-efficiency that resulted from the management’s decision to outsource production of the more expensive and labor intensive component parts. But it cannot, logically, be said that our factory worker is now more ‘productive.’ If that were the case that would mean an increase in process efficiency levels. What we in fact have here is a financial efficiency that is being passed off as something else which it is not.
They have thus changed the very meaning of the word ``productivity``. It is a lie in the same way as calling innocent civilian death’s “collateral damage,” is dishonest.
Computer box ‘manufacturers’ import component parts such as motherboards, disc drives, memory chips, power supply, etc, etc, and bundle them up together and sell them to you under the logo of “Hell” or “Hooker-Packed” or “Hate away” or “I’m a Bum” etc.
Likewise with automobiles.
Digging up more specific examples with manufacturer name, detailed costs of in-house fabrication vs. outsourcing and model numbers and component part specifications etc., costs extra money. This is a free column. You only get what you pay for. :))
#70 Romair: [“…do a write up on the Pakistani economy… very little objective good material available … the US economy has tons of material…
Pakistani economy… analsysts… suffer from… problems:
…are journalists… consider themselves an expert … too much political baggage… attach economic… to religion or secularism… a pure, objective, analysis of Pakistan`s economy … greatly needed.
…give it a shot, if you have the background… who makes sense… is Shahid Javed Burki…”]
You are extremely kind to consider me worthy of such an arduous undertaking as deciphering the enigma of the Pakistani economy. Your generosity towards me is misplaced and your vote of confidence undeserved.
I am not an academic therefore I take pains only to research subjects inside my circle of personal interests. Pakistan is outside that circle. The US markets afford me a modest livelihood, so I try and go the extra mile and look under rocks that would otherwise be left unturned. Sometimes it pays off. The trouble is worth my while and I like the work.
In a country like Pakistan where impartial empirical data is neither publicly available nor easily accessible, the only way anyone can put a coherent big picture together is if one had the resources to do field research. For that I would have neither the background nor the resources.
Let me not convey the impression that no good work has been done on the Pakistani economy. I’m sure there is lots of good work done, but I just would not have ready access to it. Besides, with people like Mr. Burki, who have seen it from the inside, there is nothing useful that a self-exiled outsider can contribute.
...SR
Thank you for raising this important question. I fully appreciate your skepticism. But first let me get some linguistic clarity.
This is a dry and boring subject matter for most people so sometimes I try to use cliches to spice up the writing style yet keep it cogent as well. It is possible to inaccurately convey the essence, though I do try to strike a balance and not to sacrifice clarity while make light of the matter.
“Made in America” was used as a cliché. I didn’t mean that they attach a small label that actually has those words written on it. Of course, a mere “made in America” label will not stimulate sales and nor did I mean to imply so.
The idea was to emphasize that a US ‘manufacturer’ could ‘produce’ and market a ‘black box.’ The sales proceeds of the ‘black box.’ (i.e., our end-product) would go to the top line revenue figure of the financial statement of the US manufacturer. The last bit of process to ‘assemble’ the black-box together may be a proprietary knowledge dependent assembly step consisting of putting together several component parts. Several of those components are no longer produced at the in-house facilities of the manufacturer because they could be imported cheaper from abroad. The cost of the component parts is passed on to the customer with a price mark-up added to it. This price mark-up is also counted towards ‘enhanced worker productivity,’ because now fewer employees work in the assembly plant and such measures as sales per employee, cash flow per employee or earnings per employee look a lot better than they did when the labor cost of fabricating the component parts was included in company payroll. Now that component part’s labor cost has been incurred by someone else overseas and is not a part of our payroll in the US plant. The plant owner’s book keeper will treat the entire cost of the component part as a single item under some other column such as ‘parts and supplies.’ This, in my view artificially enhances the ‘worker productivity.’ The worker productivity may actually also have improved due to more stream-lined processes and use of automation, but the extra bit that is added to enhance productivity even further is the dishonest part. It should be considered under cost-efficiency that resulted from the management’s decision to outsource production of the more expensive and labor intensive component parts. But it cannot, logically, be said that our factory worker is now more ‘productive.’ If that were the case that would mean an increase in process efficiency levels. What we in fact have here is a financial efficiency that is being passed off as something else which it is not.
They have thus changed the very meaning of the word ``productivity``. It is a lie in the same way as calling innocent civilian death’s “collateral damage,” is dishonest.
Computer box ‘manufacturers’ import component parts such as motherboards, disc drives, memory chips, power supply, etc, etc, and bundle them up together and sell them to you under the logo of “Hell” or “Hooker-Packed” or “Hate away” or “I’m a Bum” etc.
Likewise with automobiles.
Digging up more specific examples with manufacturer name, detailed costs of in-house fabrication vs. outsourcing and model numbers and component part specifications etc., costs extra money. This is a free column. You only get what you pay for. :))
#70 Romair: [“…do a write up on the Pakistani economy… very little objective good material available … the US economy has tons of material…
Pakistani economy… analsysts… suffer from… problems:
…are journalists… consider themselves an expert … too much political baggage… attach economic… to religion or secularism… a pure, objective, analysis of Pakistan`s economy … greatly needed.
…give it a shot, if you have the background… who makes sense… is Shahid Javed Burki…”]
You are extremely kind to consider me worthy of such an arduous undertaking as deciphering the enigma of the Pakistani economy. Your generosity towards me is misplaced and your vote of confidence undeserved.
I am not an academic therefore I take pains only to research subjects inside my circle of personal interests. Pakistan is outside that circle. The US markets afford me a modest livelihood, so I try and go the extra mile and look under rocks that would otherwise be left unturned. Sometimes it pays off. The trouble is worth my while and I like the work.
In a country like Pakistan where impartial empirical data is neither publicly available nor easily accessible, the only way anyone can put a coherent big picture together is if one had the resources to do field research. For that I would have neither the background nor the resources.
Let me not convey the impression that no good work has been done on the Pakistani economy. I’m sure there is lots of good work done, but I just would not have ready access to it. Besides, with people like Mr. Burki, who have seen it from the inside, there is nothing useful that a self-exiled outsider can contribute.
...SR
#73 Posted by arjun_m on July 9, 2003 9:55:10 pm
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#72 Posted by Romair on July 9, 2003 7:27:28 pm
SR #47: ``First, please let me make no bones about it. I am not an economist, accountant or financial professional. I am merely a layman albeit a keen observer and a devoted student of the markets and the economy.``
Be that is it may, I still think it may be a good idea for you to do a write up on the Pakistani economy. There is very little objective good material available on it. While the US economy has tons of material on it, from every direction and from every county.
On the Pakistani economy, the analsysts seem to suffer from a few problems:
- They are journalists, and not analysts, who comment on everything from military strategy to economics. And they consider themselves an expert on all these issues, because they can write decent English. There seem to be very few journalists in Pakistan, who are technical specialists in specific areas.
- They have too much political baggage attached with them. They are pushing either the govts.` agenda or the PPP`s agenda or the PML`s. So they cannot see beyond that.
- They attach economic rules to religion or secularism, without realizing that economies progress due to good economic policies, not due to how secular or religious a country maybe.
So, I think a pure, objective, analysis of Pakistan`s economy in comparison to where it was a few years ago and where it is going, without a pre-meditated doomsday scenario, is something greatly needed.
I think you should give it a shot, if you have the background. I would certainly be more interested in the Pakistan economy more than the US economy. So far the only analysis who makes sense to me in this area is Shahid Javed Burki`s weekly Tuesday article in Dawn.
Be that is it may, I still think it may be a good idea for you to do a write up on the Pakistani economy. There is very little objective good material available on it. While the US economy has tons of material on it, from every direction and from every county.
On the Pakistani economy, the analsysts seem to suffer from a few problems:
- They are journalists, and not analysts, who comment on everything from military strategy to economics. And they consider themselves an expert on all these issues, because they can write decent English. There seem to be very few journalists in Pakistan, who are technical specialists in specific areas.
- They have too much political baggage attached with them. They are pushing either the govts.` agenda or the PPP`s agenda or the PML`s. So they cannot see beyond that.
- They attach economic rules to religion or secularism, without realizing that economies progress due to good economic policies, not due to how secular or religious a country maybe.
So, I think a pure, objective, analysis of Pakistan`s economy in comparison to where it was a few years ago and where it is going, without a pre-meditated doomsday scenario, is something greatly needed.
I think you should give it a shot, if you have the background. I would certainly be more interested in the Pakistan economy more than the US economy. So far the only analysis who makes sense to me in this area is Shahid Javed Burki`s weekly Tuesday article in Dawn.
#71 Posted by nasah on July 9, 2003 7:27:28 pm
sohail -- u r not only an economics seer -- u R a great editor -- thanks:-)
#70 Posted by nasah on July 9, 2003 7:27:28 pm
sohail -- u r not only an economics seer -- u R a great editor -- thanks:-)
#69 Posted by SR on July 9, 2003 4:02:50 pm
zeemax
When my browawe loaded the page only your message #62 was posted, so I didn`t get to see #63 until after having posted my response (which is now listed as) #67.
[``...was it your brush with eternity?...``] [``...welcome to the club...``]
Thank you, old friend. You are entirely too kind.
Perhaps it`s been too long and you may be forgetting that my first ``brush with eternity`` was back in Lahore when we were 17 years old. (Remember-- from Wahadat Road to UCH?) So, my memebership to the club dates way back. It has only been re-issued again :), but thanks for the welcome, any way.
The write up you refer to is about four years old when I was a more regular participant at Chowk. The inspiration, if any, was not a diseased heart, but a broken one. I suppose it was those repeated heartaches and heart breaks that have finally done it.
tu bachaa bachaa kae na rakH eis-ay tera aiena hae vo aiena
kae shikasta ho tou aziz ter hae niGHah-e-aiena saaz maeiN
...SR
When my browawe loaded the page only your message #62 was posted, so I didn`t get to see #63 until after having posted my response (which is now listed as) #67.
[``...was it your brush with eternity?...``] [``...welcome to the club...``]
Thank you, old friend. You are entirely too kind.
Perhaps it`s been too long and you may be forgetting that my first ``brush with eternity`` was back in Lahore when we were 17 years old. (Remember-- from Wahadat Road to UCH?) So, my memebership to the club dates way back. It has only been re-issued again :), but thanks for the welcome, any way.
The write up you refer to is about four years old when I was a more regular participant at Chowk. The inspiration, if any, was not a diseased heart, but a broken one. I suppose it was those repeated heartaches and heart breaks that have finally done it.
tu bachaa bachaa kae na rakH eis-ay tera aiena hae vo aiena
kae shikasta ho tou aziz ter hae niGHah-e-aiena saaz maeiN
...SR
#68 Posted by arjun_m on July 9, 2003 10:50:13 am
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#67 Posted by SR on July 9, 2003 10:33:36 am
zeemax
Good to see that you are back. It`s been so long that I though you might have fallen off the edge of the Earth.
Yes, the demographic age-cohort imbalance is a very serious issue and one that is likely to create much political, social, and economic turmoil. European Union`s troubles in this particular regard are even worse. And they are committing a huge blunder by adding Estonia, Lithunia and Latvia (all with aging populations and low birth rates). Instead they should add Turkey, with a pyramid shaped age-distribution. That would balance out the aging population problem.
Now, now, zeemax, you should be a bit kinder to Mr. Ahmed... He seems to be refraining from hauling new insults at people and is in fact attempting to set things right by exercising a sense of humor (as demonstrated by his most recent message wherein he jokingly admonishes me). It is better to crack light jokes than to be offensive, so please give him the benefit of doubt from this point forward.
The same, unfortunately, cannot be said about another nitpicker here who utterly fails to (or deliberately refuses to) comprehend humor and takes the content of a joke literally and then attempts to demonstrate his mathematical prowess.
ZahraJ
I`m glad you found the essay worthy of the time it takes to read through, long as it is. I am also thankful that you liked the straight forward writing style, but please let me add with full emphasis that I would never presume to consider the reader as a ``little kid.`` The readers of this forum are generally very smart individuals and many of them are highly qualified and competent professionals who are entirely too kind to even bother and read a common man`s dessenting point of view that I present in this column.
soysauce
Your contribution cannot possibly be misinterpreted as an attempt to hijack the thread. In fact the InterActor`s participation only enriches this space. As far as Chowk staff`s editorial prerogative is concerned, I am in no position to second-guess that since I never saw your ``purged`` post. But am glad this other psot of your did make it through.
I tend to agree with your final observation that this website is blessed with a disproportionately high count of affulent people of the respective communities whence their numbers are mostly drawn from.
ali87
Thank you for taking the time to express several different ideas in your elaborate, albeit extempore, message.
You`ve mentioned Wall-Mart and GE as contributors to enhanced productivity. Actually, much of the ``enhanced productivity`` is a statistical gimmic. A US manufacturer who outsources a huge proportion of his component parts to India and China (where they are made at a fraction of the cost compared to what it would have cost him in-house) ends up having a total lower cost of production. He then takes the last step of assembling the final product in-house. This last step entitles him to put ``Made in America`` label on his end product, even if most of the internal components are foreign made. The sale price of his ``made in America`` end-product is credited to his account. Compared to yester-year when he made most component parts in-house, of course, his cost is much lower (fews workers in the assembly plant) and so PRESTO we have ``enhanced productivity``. This is how they can make the patently dishonest claim that the ``productivity`` of the American worker is sky-rocketting compared to other countries. (In an earlier message I`ve already discussed the other dishonest trick the government uses to claim enhanced productivity, namely, the hedonic factor, also called the hedonic deflator.)
Just as an aside, the US market has three main deflationary forces at work: Chinese imports, Wall-Mart and the Internet. (Wall-Mart contributes between 1.5 to 2.2 (depending on the metric used) of the US GDP. Wall-Mart has more people in uniform than does the US army. To appreciate its financial muscle consider that just the theft from Wall-Mart stores is about $2 Billion a year.)
You`ve mentioned the Chinese asking for payment in yuan at some future point. That day may well come one day but for now the communist party leadership is only interested in clinging on to its power and for that they need to create employment, thus they are going for market share, and damned be the profits. The Chinese credit creting machinery is also on full throttle and that has led to a huge world-wide over-capacity in practically every manufactured products -- just wait till China starts exporting cars.
The Chinese are a very patient people and throughout their history, last 50 years being an abberation, they were astute capitalists. Their plan seems to be taking market share and eliminating all competetors by price undercutting. Simulataneously, the Chinese have started accummulating gold and other precious metals. Shanghai gold exchange and now even silver and platinum exchanges are up and running. Chinese are presently the second biggest importers of gold world-wide. (Japan is still number one.) One day, I suspect, before the middle of the century, the Chinese will back their currency with gold and the yuan will be the most solid currency in the world.
The reference you made to US military power and the future power struggle is a difficult one to foresee. I do not think that the US will continue to have the military might that it does today. I beleive that as the nation-state becomes weaker economically, the military will gradually become more and more privatised. At some point later in the century the internal political power dynamics of America will have changed so profoundly, partly due to the ``browning`` of America that the real power shall have shifted away from the federal state and will have passed on into the collective hands of consortiums of multi-national corporations. It will be the consortium of corporations that will have the financial muscle to pay for and support a mercinary military establishment. The deminished nation-state will be a more democratic entiry but one that wields much less power as it would always be teetering at the brink of financial insolvency. The whole concept to ``nationalism`` could be something totally different than what we recognize today. So, in clusion, NO, I don`t think that America will be the Big Bad Satan Empire by the end of the century. The Chinese will also have come and gone. There will be bigger, newer and more nebulous ``Empires`` that will be based, at once, everywhere and nowhere.
...SR
Good to see that you are back. It`s been so long that I though you might have fallen off the edge of the Earth.
Yes, the demographic age-cohort imbalance is a very serious issue and one that is likely to create much political, social, and economic turmoil. European Union`s troubles in this particular regard are even worse. And they are committing a huge blunder by adding Estonia, Lithunia and Latvia (all with aging populations and low birth rates). Instead they should add Turkey, with a pyramid shaped age-distribution. That would balance out the aging population problem.
Now, now, zeemax, you should be a bit kinder to Mr. Ahmed... He seems to be refraining from hauling new insults at people and is in fact attempting to set things right by exercising a sense of humor (as demonstrated by his most recent message wherein he jokingly admonishes me). It is better to crack light jokes than to be offensive, so please give him the benefit of doubt from this point forward.
The same, unfortunately, cannot be said about another nitpicker here who utterly fails to (or deliberately refuses to) comprehend humor and takes the content of a joke literally and then attempts to demonstrate his mathematical prowess.
ZahraJ
I`m glad you found the essay worthy of the time it takes to read through, long as it is. I am also thankful that you liked the straight forward writing style, but please let me add with full emphasis that I would never presume to consider the reader as a ``little kid.`` The readers of this forum are generally very smart individuals and many of them are highly qualified and competent professionals who are entirely too kind to even bother and read a common man`s dessenting point of view that I present in this column.
soysauce
Your contribution cannot possibly be misinterpreted as an attempt to hijack the thread. In fact the InterActor`s participation only enriches this space. As far as Chowk staff`s editorial prerogative is concerned, I am in no position to second-guess that since I never saw your ``purged`` post. But am glad this other psot of your did make it through.
I tend to agree with your final observation that this website is blessed with a disproportionately high count of affulent people of the respective communities whence their numbers are mostly drawn from.
ali87
Thank you for taking the time to express several different ideas in your elaborate, albeit extempore, message.
You`ve mentioned Wall-Mart and GE as contributors to enhanced productivity. Actually, much of the ``enhanced productivity`` is a statistical gimmic. A US manufacturer who outsources a huge proportion of his component parts to India and China (where they are made at a fraction of the cost compared to what it would have cost him in-house) ends up having a total lower cost of production. He then takes the last step of assembling the final product in-house. This last step entitles him to put ``Made in America`` label on his end product, even if most of the internal components are foreign made. The sale price of his ``made in America`` end-product is credited to his account. Compared to yester-year when he made most component parts in-house, of course, his cost is much lower (fews workers in the assembly plant) and so PRESTO we have ``enhanced productivity``. This is how they can make the patently dishonest claim that the ``productivity`` of the American worker is sky-rocketting compared to other countries. (In an earlier message I`ve already discussed the other dishonest trick the government uses to claim enhanced productivity, namely, the hedonic factor, also called the hedonic deflator.)
Just as an aside, the US market has three main deflationary forces at work: Chinese imports, Wall-Mart and the Internet. (Wall-Mart contributes between 1.5 to 2.2 (depending on the metric used) of the US GDP. Wall-Mart has more people in uniform than does the US army. To appreciate its financial muscle consider that just the theft from Wall-Mart stores is about $2 Billion a year.)
You`ve mentioned the Chinese asking for payment in yuan at some future point. That day may well come one day but for now the communist party leadership is only interested in clinging on to its power and for that they need to create employment, thus they are going for market share, and damned be the profits. The Chinese credit creting machinery is also on full throttle and that has led to a huge world-wide over-capacity in practically every manufactured products -- just wait till China starts exporting cars.
The Chinese are a very patient people and throughout their history, last 50 years being an abberation, they were astute capitalists. Their plan seems to be taking market share and eliminating all competetors by price undercutting. Simulataneously, the Chinese have started accummulating gold and other precious metals. Shanghai gold exchange and now even silver and platinum exchanges are up and running. Chinese are presently the second biggest importers of gold world-wide. (Japan is still number one.) One day, I suspect, before the middle of the century, the Chinese will back their currency with gold and the yuan will be the most solid currency in the world.
The reference you made to US military power and the future power struggle is a difficult one to foresee. I do not think that the US will continue to have the military might that it does today. I beleive that as the nation-state becomes weaker economically, the military will gradually become more and more privatised. At some point later in the century the internal political power dynamics of America will have changed so profoundly, partly due to the ``browning`` of America that the real power shall have shifted away from the federal state and will have passed on into the collective hands of consortiums of multi-national corporations. It will be the consortium of corporations that will have the financial muscle to pay for and support a mercinary military establishment. The deminished nation-state will be a more democratic entiry but one that wields much less power as it would always be teetering at the brink of financial insolvency. The whole concept to ``nationalism`` could be something totally different than what we recognize today. So, in clusion, NO, I don`t think that America will be the Big Bad Satan Empire by the end of the century. The Chinese will also have come and gone. There will be bigger, newer and more nebulous ``Empires`` that will be based, at once, everywhere and nowhere.
...SR
#66 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2003 10:18:25 am
SR,
Wow, just happened to click on your intro ! What inspired this moving prose? Was it your brush with eternity?
``Each day the barracuda sets out not knowing whether it shall get dinner or become dinner.``
``A life lived in the past or for tomorrow is a thankless ritual, as meaningless as scooping water with a sieve. Yesterday is only a dream buried under the dust of time. Tomorrow is an illusion, a mere fantasy, a phantom forever elusive.``
No comments on the first quote. Its just true.
The second quote reminds of of what George Harrison (R.I.P) had said when interviewed on the 25th anniversary of the Woodstock Festival ``We can learn from the past but we can`t relive it; we can hope for the future but who knows if there`s one? So, the only thing there ever was, is now.``
Not that I necessarily agree. There`s something beyond, and that should be the quest.
Welcome to the club!
Rgds
Rgds
Wow, just happened to click on your intro ! What inspired this moving prose? Was it your brush with eternity?
``Each day the barracuda sets out not knowing whether it shall get dinner or become dinner.``
``A life lived in the past or for tomorrow is a thankless ritual, as meaningless as scooping water with a sieve. Yesterday is only a dream buried under the dust of time. Tomorrow is an illusion, a mere fantasy, a phantom forever elusive.``
No comments on the first quote. Its just true.
The second quote reminds of of what George Harrison (R.I.P) had said when interviewed on the 25th anniversary of the Woodstock Festival ``We can learn from the past but we can`t relive it; we can hope for the future but who knows if there`s one? So, the only thing there ever was, is now.``
Not that I necessarily agree. There`s something beyond, and that should be the quest.
Welcome to the club!
Rgds
Rgds
#65 Posted by tahmed32 on July 9, 2003 10:18:25 am
zeemax #62 But I did contribute seriously to this discussion in my very first post, #9. In my latest post that you read, I just thought it was funny the way SR was meticulously correcting is figures from $43.something to $45 and apologizing for the erratum.
#64 Posted by sac on July 9, 2003 10:18:25 am
re einsteinwallah #61:
Thanks for your explanation. I agree that the odds do not improve if one is always carrying the bomb. I was looking at the two events from the perspective of someone who had no knowledge of either event and was purely calculating probabilities of an event composed of independent events.
As for risk adjusted rate of return, there is a lot of research out there but very little of it is used in practice. A good example is Sharpe ratio which is used to come up with efficient portfolios.
later
-sac
Thanks for your explanation. I agree that the odds do not improve if one is always carrying the bomb. I was looking at the two events from the perspective of someone who had no knowledge of either event and was purely calculating probabilities of an event composed of independent events.
As for risk adjusted rate of return, there is a lot of research out there but very little of it is used in practice. A good example is Sharpe ratio which is used to come up with efficient portfolios.
later
-sac
#63 Posted by Inquirer on July 9, 2003 10:18:25 am
The very premise and the title of the article shows inconsistency and lack of understanding of the way US works. YES, US IS NEITHER AN EMPIRE NOR AN ILLUSION. And the adjectives are meaningless.
US is a directed democracy and capitalist economy. Do not confuse capitalist for laissez faire. Inspite of some hard steps that US has taken during last two years - no, partially due to them - the US economy is still the strongest and most prosperous in the world ever.
Unfortunately, due to the verbosity of the article it is not possible - nor, is it worthwhile to spend so much time on obviously prejudiced view point - to provide a detailed evaluation.
ANSWER THIS:
WHICH COUNTRY, ECONOMY AND KINGDOM IS IMPORTING MORE AMERICANS THAN EXPORTING THEIR POPULATION? AND WHY IS EVERYONE GATECRASHING AMERICA??
WHY DON`T THOSE WHO ANTICIPATE DISASTER TAKE THE PRUDENT STEP AND GO BACK TO THEIR ``LOVABLE LAND???``
US is a directed democracy and capitalist economy. Do not confuse capitalist for laissez faire. Inspite of some hard steps that US has taken during last two years - no, partially due to them - the US economy is still the strongest and most prosperous in the world ever.
Unfortunately, due to the verbosity of the article it is not possible - nor, is it worthwhile to spend so much time on obviously prejudiced view point - to provide a detailed evaluation.
ANSWER THIS:
WHICH COUNTRY, ECONOMY AND KINGDOM IS IMPORTING MORE AMERICANS THAN EXPORTING THEIR POPULATION? AND WHY IS EVERYONE GATECRASHING AMERICA??
WHY DON`T THOSE WHO ANTICIPATE DISASTER TAKE THE PRUDENT STEP AND GO BACK TO THEIR ``LOVABLE LAND???``
#62 Posted by einsteinwallah on July 9, 2003 12:49:27 am
[#59 by sac on July 8, 2003 7:29pm PT
I am afraid the statistician was correct and you are wrong. etc etc]
First of all I must apologise for giving here another correction to my post #53:
E(P(t + 1) / P(t)) = r
should read as:
ln(E(P(t + 1) / P(t))) = r
Now for reply to sac:
I am a Statistics graduate of an Indian university. So I understand the meaning of ``independent event``. But when the traveller is always carrying a bomb, then that event has probability 1. It always happens. That event and the event of real terrorist planting a bomb are two independent events. That I agree. But since one event is certain and the other event (say) has probability ``p``, then probability of both happening is: 1 * p. So you are right about the multiplication formula. But in the joke the traveller was seeking advice for improving his odds. So, this does not improve his odds. The probability of 1 bomb planted by a real terrorist remains same. So when Statistician gives such advice he is being dishonest. For that matter why not let traveller carry 10 bombs? Surely probability of 11 bombs aboard an aircraft is p ^ 11 which must be almost zero. But no. Probability of 10 bombs on aircarft not exploding is 1. So correct formula is again: 1 * p = p. And again it has not gone down. Odds have not improved.
The formula in my post relates to a Stochastic Differential Equation which is famous in Financial Math literature. Famous Black-Scholes formula for price of an option with European-style exercise is based on this model. I will give brief intro here but you should search web for more info. Two popular textbooks in this subject are: (1) Salih Neftci ``An Introduction to the Mathematics of Financial Derivatives`` and (2) Bernt Oksendal ``Stochastic Differential Equations``.
Basic concept is that if stock price type of data series is there (say) P(t) which is randomly changing then we want to give a model for it.
If your P(t) is money then it would be constant if you just bury that money in a hole in your backyard and value of that money will remain unchanged no matter how long it sits there. Such P(t) is not of our interest. We want to model random price movement.
In case of a stock price which is not going up or down, but which executes a ``random walk`` along ``price axis`` (y-axis, x-axis is time), there will be certain amount of unpredictibility of future price of stock. More volatile stock, it is more likely to move away from a past price. This parameter of volatility is sigma in the equation I gave in my post.
What Japanese mathematician Ito did was provide simple rules for manipulating ``differentials`` of P(t). Rememeber P(t) is stock price, so it takes any value from 0 to infinity. And P(t + dt) / P(t) is nonsense, because both numerator and denominator are random variables. All we can say is that such quantities may be themselves random variables.
If P(t) had been deterministic (that is non-random) and growing exponentially then:
d(P(t)) = r * P(t) * dt (r is exponential growth rate)
But the fact that stock prices are random means:
d(P(t)) = r * P(t) * dt + ``random noise``
More volatile the stock more wild the noise:
d(P(t)) = r * P(t) * dt + sigma * P(t) * ``infinitismal noise``
The ``infinitismal noise`` is what Prof Ito wrote as dB. Unlike dt, dB is a random quantity. B is ``unit`` level of noise. Kind of ``standardized noise``. If stock is more volatile then we just use bigger sigma to ``amplify`` the effect of dB.
When dB is infinitismal Gaussian noise, then the two expectations are as I gave in my post #53. (But please read the correction I give in this post.) There is nothing big einstein-stuff there. If you know basic statistics then you know that E(f(X)) is not equal to f(E(X)). In the expectations I have given in #53, expectation of ratio of stock prices separated by 1 unit of time is e ^ r. (Here you will have to read my above correction.) That is: natural logarithm of this quantity is ``r``. But the expectation of natural logarithm of price ratio is a smaller quantity! The correction you have to apply is half of variance. And variance is (sigma ^ 2). And sigma is ``amplification`` factor of Gaussian infinitismal noise.
As an example:
Suppose a stock doubles in price one day and then next day it halves. Per day average of ratios over these two days is average of 2 and half: (2 + 0.5) / 2 = 1.25. But does that mean that stock returned a profit per day of 25 percent? No. Really the stock price has not moved by a penny over these two days! So to get a ``correct`` picture of this situation we use logarithms of ratios and then take average. That is (ln(2) + ln(0.5)) / 2 = 0.
In other words ``return rate`` based on day to day percent returns are always rosier. That is ``unadjusted`` return rate. It is the logarithms of day to day ratios that give ``correct`` picture. And those will give gloomier picture. This smaller return rate based on logarithms of ratios is called ``risk adjusted return rate``.
Once again I must apologise for errors in post #53. I am sure it must have confused many statistics-aware Chowksters.
I am afraid the statistician was correct and you are wrong. etc etc]
First of all I must apologise for giving here another correction to my post #53:
E(P(t + 1) / P(t)) = r
should read as:
ln(E(P(t + 1) / P(t))) = r
Now for reply to sac:
I am a Statistics graduate of an Indian university. So I understand the meaning of ``independent event``. But when the traveller is always carrying a bomb, then that event has probability 1. It always happens. That event and the event of real terrorist planting a bomb are two independent events. That I agree. But since one event is certain and the other event (say) has probability ``p``, then probability of both happening is: 1 * p. So you are right about the multiplication formula. But in the joke the traveller was seeking advice for improving his odds. So, this does not improve his odds. The probability of 1 bomb planted by a real terrorist remains same. So when Statistician gives such advice he is being dishonest. For that matter why not let traveller carry 10 bombs? Surely probability of 11 bombs aboard an aircraft is p ^ 11 which must be almost zero. But no. Probability of 10 bombs on aircarft not exploding is 1. So correct formula is again: 1 * p = p. And again it has not gone down. Odds have not improved.
The formula in my post relates to a Stochastic Differential Equation which is famous in Financial Math literature. Famous Black-Scholes formula for price of an option with European-style exercise is based on this model. I will give brief intro here but you should search web for more info. Two popular textbooks in this subject are: (1) Salih Neftci ``An Introduction to the Mathematics of Financial Derivatives`` and (2) Bernt Oksendal ``Stochastic Differential Equations``.
Basic concept is that if stock price type of data series is there (say) P(t) which is randomly changing then we want to give a model for it.
If your P(t) is money then it would be constant if you just bury that money in a hole in your backyard and value of that money will remain unchanged no matter how long it sits there. Such P(t) is not of our interest. We want to model random price movement.
In case of a stock price which is not going up or down, but which executes a ``random walk`` along ``price axis`` (y-axis, x-axis is time), there will be certain amount of unpredictibility of future price of stock. More volatile stock, it is more likely to move away from a past price. This parameter of volatility is sigma in the equation I gave in my post.
What Japanese mathematician Ito did was provide simple rules for manipulating ``differentials`` of P(t). Rememeber P(t) is stock price, so it takes any value from 0 to infinity. And P(t + dt) / P(t) is nonsense, because both numerator and denominator are random variables. All we can say is that such quantities may be themselves random variables.
If P(t) had been deterministic (that is non-random) and growing exponentially then:
d(P(t)) = r * P(t) * dt (r is exponential growth rate)
But the fact that stock prices are random means:
d(P(t)) = r * P(t) * dt + ``random noise``
More volatile the stock more wild the noise:
d(P(t)) = r * P(t) * dt + sigma * P(t) * ``infinitismal noise``
The ``infinitismal noise`` is what Prof Ito wrote as dB. Unlike dt, dB is a random quantity. B is ``unit`` level of noise. Kind of ``standardized noise``. If stock is more volatile then we just use bigger sigma to ``amplify`` the effect of dB.
When dB is infinitismal Gaussian noise, then the two expectations are as I gave in my post #53. (But please read the correction I give in this post.) There is nothing big einstein-stuff there. If you know basic statistics then you know that E(f(X)) is not equal to f(E(X)). In the expectations I have given in #53, expectation of ratio of stock prices separated by 1 unit of time is e ^ r. (Here you will have to read my above correction.) That is: natural logarithm of this quantity is ``r``. But the expectation of natural logarithm of price ratio is a smaller quantity! The correction you have to apply is half of variance. And variance is (sigma ^ 2). And sigma is ``amplification`` factor of Gaussian infinitismal noise.
As an example:
Suppose a stock doubles in price one day and then next day it halves. Per day average of ratios over these two days is average of 2 and half: (2 + 0.5) / 2 = 1.25. But does that mean that stock returned a profit per day of 25 percent? No. Really the stock price has not moved by a penny over these two days! So to get a ``correct`` picture of this situation we use logarithms of ratios and then take average. That is (ln(2) + ln(0.5)) / 2 = 0.
In other words ``return rate`` based on day to day percent returns are always rosier. That is ``unadjusted`` return rate. It is the logarithms of day to day ratios that give ``correct`` picture. And those will give gloomier picture. This smaller return rate based on logarithms of ratios is called ``risk adjusted return rate``.
Once again I must apologise for errors in post #53. I am sure it must have confused many statistics-aware Chowksters.
#61 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2003 12:49:27 am
SR,
I see Mr. tahmed32 is, as usual, posting his laconic and cynical remarks rather than contributing anything of substance. Not to worry my friend. I think your article as well as your posts that follow are knowledgable and revealing.
I have particular interest in the following phenomon which you have pointed out:
``The Baby Boom generation shall begin to retire and become entitled to Social Security benefits in five years. In eight years they will also start collecting Medicare benefits. By the time all 76 million Baby Boomers retire, the US retiree population will have doubled but the additional tax payers who carry the financial burden will have increased by a mere 15%.``
The Baby Boomers have dictated the consumer industrial/marketing policies since the 60s. What do you think is next? Certainly there`ll be an enormous burden on the US exchequer. so US will create more Dollars to cover them. I guess sales of golf kits will also have a phenominal jump. You`re right in asserting it all apears so ridiculous.
Rgds
I see Mr. tahmed32 is, as usual, posting his laconic and cynical remarks rather than contributing anything of substance. Not to worry my friend. I think your article as well as your posts that follow are knowledgable and revealing.
I have particular interest in the following phenomon which you have pointed out:
``The Baby Boom generation shall begin to retire and become entitled to Social Security benefits in five years. In eight years they will also start collecting Medicare benefits. By the time all 76 million Baby Boomers retire, the US retiree population will have doubled but the additional tax payers who carry the financial burden will have increased by a mere 15%.``
The Baby Boomers have dictated the consumer industrial/marketing policies since the 60s. What do you think is next? Certainly there`ll be an enormous burden on the US exchequer. so US will create more Dollars to cover them. I guess sales of golf kits will also have a phenominal jump. You`re right in asserting it all apears so ridiculous.
Rgds
#60 Posted by ZahraJ on July 8, 2003 10:11:42 pm
An informative article. I like the writer`s style since he narrates examples as if he is addressing curious little kids. It`s a sweet way of engaging your audience.
I hate to do that, but I simply cannot resist applauding the wit and humor in select interActs.
Glad to read that the interActors are alive and kicking contributors vs. passive readers :)
I hate to do that, but I simply cannot resist applauding the wit and humor in select interActs.
Glad to read that the interActors are alive and kicking contributors vs. passive readers :)
#59 Posted by sac on July 8, 2003 7:29:26 pm
re einsteinwallah #53:
I am afraid the statistician was correct and you are wrong. You`ve correctly identified each person carrying a bomb as an independent event. However, the probability of two independent events happening when they don`t affect each other is obtained by multiplying individual probabilities. So, if you assign a small number like .01 to the probability of each event, then the probability of both of them happening would be .01x.01=.0001 which as the statistician pointed out would be a smaller number than .01.
I don`t understand what you are trying to convey by your formula.
later
-sac
I am afraid the statistician was correct and you are wrong. You`ve correctly identified each person carrying a bomb as an independent event. However, the probability of two independent events happening when they don`t affect each other is obtained by multiplying individual probabilities. So, if you assign a small number like .01 to the probability of each event, then the probability of both of them happening would be .01x.01=.0001 which as the statistician pointed out would be a smaller number than .01.
I don`t understand what you are trying to convey by your formula.
later
-sac
#58 Posted by tahmed32 on July 8, 2003 2:37:13 pm
SR #56 You made an error of $1.3 trillion and think just sorry will do!! Think of the folks who now stand to lose their pension funds as a result of this incorrect data that you supplied!! Those poor widows and orphans who will now starve thanks to YOUR mistake. Entire nations will now go bankrupt thanks to your disinformation. Finance ministers have already started submitting their resignations. Investors from New York to Tokyo Hong Kong to London to Frankfurt have started jumping from out of windows from their high-rise office buildings. The IMF has already been alerted and is burning the midnight oil trying to figure out how to prevent the collapse of the world monetary system as a result of YOUR mistake.
And all you have to say for yourself is...sorry. I shall not stand for this!!
And all you have to say for yourself is...sorry. I shall not stand for this!!
#57 Posted by nasah on July 8, 2003 11:06:23 am
Now what did I say about Buffoon Bush.....Texas `dimwitted cowboy`
Here is today Nicholas Kristoff of New York Times say about Bush and Blair -- and how Bush has pratically assured the Booting out of Blair and the Labor from 10 Downing Street.
In Blair We Trust
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
LONDON
One of the saddest results of our war in Iraq is that it may finish off Tony Blair before Saddam Hussein.
Everywhere I go in Britain, people dismiss Mr. Blair as President Bush`s poodle. Mr. Blair`s Labor Party has fallen behind the Conservatives in the latest poll, for only the second time in 11 years.
``The Iraq critics think that the prime minister has betrayed his country to a Texas gunslinger,`` William Rees-Mogg noted in The Times of London.
So it`ll sound foolish when I suggest that President Bush should study Mr. Blair and learn a few things. But on the other hand, everybody likes Mr. Blair but the Brits.
A poll by the Pew Research Center found that Mr. Blair was the world leader Americans trusted most (Mr. Bush ranked second), respected by 83 percent of Americans, and he was also highly esteemed in countries as diverse as Australia and Nigeria.
More interesting, Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair took very similar positions over the last couple of years, and both exaggerated the Iraqi threat — and yet Mr. Blair is perhaps the leading statesman in the world today and Mr. Bush is regarded by much of the globe as a dimwitted cowboy.
Or, as an Oxford don put it to me after perhaps too much sherry, ``a buffoon.``(NYT)
thanks Nick.
Here is today Nicholas Kristoff of New York Times say about Bush and Blair -- and how Bush has pratically assured the Booting out of Blair and the Labor from 10 Downing Street.
In Blair We Trust
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
LONDON
One of the saddest results of our war in Iraq is that it may finish off Tony Blair before Saddam Hussein.
Everywhere I go in Britain, people dismiss Mr. Blair as President Bush`s poodle. Mr. Blair`s Labor Party has fallen behind the Conservatives in the latest poll, for only the second time in 11 years.
``The Iraq critics think that the prime minister has betrayed his country to a Texas gunslinger,`` William Rees-Mogg noted in The Times of London.
So it`ll sound foolish when I suggest that President Bush should study Mr. Blair and learn a few things. But on the other hand, everybody likes Mr. Blair but the Brits.
A poll by the Pew Research Center found that Mr. Blair was the world leader Americans trusted most (Mr. Bush ranked second), respected by 83 percent of Americans, and he was also highly esteemed in countries as diverse as Australia and Nigeria.
More interesting, Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair took very similar positions over the last couple of years, and both exaggerated the Iraqi threat — and yet Mr. Blair is perhaps the leading statesman in the world today and Mr. Bush is regarded by much of the globe as a dimwitted cowboy.
Or, as an Oxford don put it to me after perhaps too much sherry, ``a buffoon.``(NYT)
thanks Nick.
#56 Posted by SR on July 8, 2003 11:00:26 am
ERROR CORRECTION
Dear ALL
While going through some source documents I have just discovered a factual error that I had transcribed in my notes which I used as quick reference while writing the article.
The Gokhal and Smetters study that I`ve referred to in the article put the present value of the government`s fiscal imbalance at $43.4 Trillion.
Please see: http://irm.wharton.upenn.edu/WP-Testimony-Smetters.pdf
In the article I have presented that number, in error, as $45 Trillion. I sincerely regret this misreporting.
...SR
Dear ALL
While going through some source documents I have just discovered a factual error that I had transcribed in my notes which I used as quick reference while writing the article.
The Gokhal and Smetters study that I`ve referred to in the article put the present value of the government`s fiscal imbalance at $43.4 Trillion.
Please see: http://irm.wharton.upenn.edu/WP-Testimony-Smetters.pdf
In the article I have presented that number, in error, as $45 Trillion. I sincerely regret this misreporting.
...SR
#55 Posted by soysauce on July 8, 2003 8:29:52 am
#50 SR
I don`t mean to hijack your thread. Just wanted to make an observation. [I did send in something relevant to this thread a few days ago but Chowk`s censors (thank you Ana Doborah!) seem to have decided it wasn`t profound enough to make it.]
You say:As an example, suppose someone here claimed that you were a liar and a thief. They said you were stealing from your employer. They make this statement on the observation that you lurk around Chowk.com reading and typing messages all day long when you are supposedly at work. They may thus conclude that you were not being honest to your employer and were virtually stealing money by not earning it while you were supposedly at work. Now would that be reasonable? I think not. For all that person knows you could be an independently wealthy gentleman of leisure who could do with his time as he damn well pleases.
Methinks there are a lot of independently wealthy gentlemen about in the Chowk..
I don`t mean to hijack your thread. Just wanted to make an observation. [I did send in something relevant to this thread a few days ago but Chowk`s censors (thank you Ana Doborah!) seem to have decided it wasn`t profound enough to make it.]
You say:As an example, suppose someone here claimed that you were a liar and a thief. They said you were stealing from your employer. They make this statement on the observation that you lurk around Chowk.com reading and typing messages all day long when you are supposedly at work. They may thus conclude that you were not being honest to your employer and were virtually stealing money by not earning it while you were supposedly at work. Now would that be reasonable? I think not. For all that person knows you could be an independently wealthy gentleman of leisure who could do with his time as he damn well pleases.
Methinks there are a lot of independently wealthy gentlemen about in the Chowk..
#54 Posted by einsteinwallah on July 8, 2003 8:29:52 am
[#53 by einsteinwallah on July 8, 2003 0:56am PT
...
dP = r * P * dt + sigma * dB (P=Price, t=time, r=return rate, sigma= square root of a variance-like quantity)]
Correction. The equation should read as follows:
dP = r * P * dt + sigma * P * dB
...
dP = r * P * dt + sigma * dB (P=Price, t=time, r=return rate, sigma= square root of a variance-like quantity)]
Correction. The equation should read as follows:
dP = r * P * dt + sigma * P * dB
#53 Posted by einsteinwallah on July 8, 2003 12:56:45 am
[#46 by SR on July 7, 2003 0:49am PT
...
The statistician advised him to carry a bomb in his brief case at all times because that way his probability of being in a plane with TWO bombs would be far, far smaller. ]
A statistician could not have made such a statement. This clearly shows that you do not know even basic probability theory.
If ``p`` is probability of an unknown terrorist planting a bomb in an aircraft, then that ``p`` is probability of an event which is completely different from a traveller always carrying a bomb. A traveller always carrying bomb means that probability of 1 bomb on aircraft is 1. And probability of an unknown terrorist planting a bomb over and above the one carried by the traveller remains ``p``, because these two events are independent.
Statistics is mainly misused by politicians and those who do not understand it correctly.
The Snow`s statement in your article mentions ``risk-adjusted return`` which is also a statistical concept. (Having said that Snow might have used it in the conference more for hype than anything else.)
Any investment which grows at a random exponential rate ``r`` has always expected unadjusted rate of return inflated by half of a variance-like number if underlying model of price is Geometrical Brownian Motion (GBM). GBM is often represented by a Stochastic Differential Equation like following:
dP = r * P * dt + sigma * dB (P=Price, t=time, r=return rate, sigma= square root of a variance-like quantity)
where dB is differential of a ``unit`` Brownian Motion (a random thing). Japanese Mathematician Ito developed this brand new ``calculus`` for manipulating such equations. Basic result is:
E(P(t + 1) / P(t)) = r (unadjusted rate) (Here E(.) is expectation, another of ill understood statistical concept)
But:
E(ln(P(t + 1) / P(t))) = r - ( sigma * sigma ) / 2 (risk adjusted rate)
The number ( sigma * sigma ) is variance per unit of time of (random) return rate of P. When sigma is zero return is governed by famous exponential growth equation:
dP = r * P * dt (which is not Ito-type equation, so college Calculus is sufficient here)
which has a solution:
P(t) = P(0) * e ^ (r * t) (where ``e`` is exponential ``e``)
...
The statistician advised him to carry a bomb in his brief case at all times because that way his probability of being in a plane with TWO bombs would be far, far smaller. ]
A statistician could not have made such a statement. This clearly shows that you do not know even basic probability theory.
If ``p`` is probability of an unknown terrorist planting a bomb in an aircraft, then that ``p`` is probability of an event which is completely different from a traveller always carrying a bomb. A traveller always carrying bomb means that probability of 1 bomb on aircraft is 1. And probability of an unknown terrorist planting a bomb over and above the one carried by the traveller remains ``p``, because these two events are independent.
Statistics is mainly misused by politicians and those who do not understand it correctly.
The Snow`s statement in your article mentions ``risk-adjusted return`` which is also a statistical concept. (Having said that Snow might have used it in the conference more for hype than anything else.)
Any investment which grows at a random exponential rate ``r`` has always expected unadjusted rate of return inflated by half of a variance-like number if underlying model of price is Geometrical Brownian Motion (GBM). GBM is often represented by a Stochastic Differential Equation like following:
dP = r * P * dt + sigma * dB (P=Price, t=time, r=return rate, sigma= square root of a variance-like quantity)
where dB is differential of a ``unit`` Brownian Motion (a random thing). Japanese Mathematician Ito developed this brand new ``calculus`` for manipulating such equations. Basic result is:
E(P(t + 1) / P(t)) = r (unadjusted rate) (Here E(.) is expectation, another of ill understood statistical concept)
But:
E(ln(P(t + 1) / P(t))) = r - ( sigma * sigma ) / 2 (risk adjusted rate)
The number ( sigma * sigma ) is variance per unit of time of (random) return rate of P. When sigma is zero return is governed by famous exponential growth equation:
dP = r * P * dt (which is not Ito-type equation, so college Calculus is sufficient here)
which has a solution:
P(t) = P(0) * e ^ (r * t) (where ``e`` is exponential ``e``)
#52 Posted by Ali87 on July 8, 2003 12:34:54 am
SR, Tahmed, Inqurier others,
good article. It is amusing to see those who are settled here quite upset about anything that points to the future coming problems of the US.
From a economic point of view what your article points is largely true.
The efficeincy of the US Industry is also cited for its accumulation of riches. It is often seen coming from the first mass production in the world ie of ford.
However recent prodctvity increases are largley attributed to in the retailing part of the economy. Walmart is suppossed to be responsible for a major portion of this productvity improvement. Similarly the other gaint ie GE under Jack Welsh showed immpressive increase in growth and profits. Some analayse this due to the aggressive(first among the large companies)outsourcing of manufacturing to china. It is estimated that 70% of the manufacuring done by GE now comes from China or other location of outsourcing.
If this is the source of the current strength of the US economy vi a vi the other developed economies we know very well what the future can hold for the US
The other aspects ie of demographics, past achivements, persent social system etc. It is intresting to analyse these. Some one was quoting the presence of nobel prize winners, intellectual capital etc. yes we can look at absoute figures and make conclusions. The art of predicting is not based on current but on relative paramaters. Let us take the case of circa 1950 and crica 2003. US a large land with inherent landbased wealth plus the intellectual wealth of a advanced eurpoean based knowledge system further enchanced by fleeing intellecutals, technocrats etc from europe was a leader in this aspect in the world. Add to this a large economy you have things going very well. On the other hand there was asia, practically poor in every sense especially in education and technical knowledge and of course no large economy to compare with the US.
Cut to present. Would it be an exxegaration to say that the combined number of educated, tehchnological component people in china, India, Japan, ASEAN outnumber those in the US in sheer numbers in quality perhaps they dont but that is not because of capability but perhaps because of lack of opprotunity ie large local economy to service which is what demands innovations, absorbs the cost of research and provides access to market to experiment with new ideas and technologies.
But all this set to change. Japan already is a developed nation. China a large manufacturing base as is ASEAN, both innovation as well as research is possible as the internal economies become rich India is getting there ie with other than manufactruing and by exporting intellectuals who will certainly provide(and are providing)impetus to innovation as the market in India becomes capable of taking all those inputs.
But where does US stand in all this? Is the population increasing? are the number of technicaly compentet people in US increasing dramatically? Is the capability for Innovaiton a sole preserve of US? some thing that will not change in future?
On the other hand the recent position of US as expounded by the current administration has been taken note of by all governments in the world. As you will see that many rearrangemts are takign place in many countries in their startegic thinking vis a vi US. Some economists with chinese background call for china to ask for payments for its goods in near future(decade or two)in Yuan(therefore instead of china buying or recivigd dollars it will demand yuan)Is this possible scenario? yes it is.(wether it happens or not is a differnt case especially considering the current political situation). With other countries having recongnised the value of euro or other payments(mainly to redude the possibility for arm twisting from US) It will certainly become a trend I dont think that US will forever be able to use its military to settle such issues. Mahatir Mohammeds attempt for creation of gold dinar has found symphteic ears in some countries. As as his alterantive of using barter for trade as far as possible(some thing that India welcomes too.) One cant fight Ideas with the gun forever successfully.
There are nearly 3 billion people in Asia compared to the 280 million in US(increasingly getting old) Poor as these people are I dont doubt that they will be better off in future (which may be 2-4 decades away) will they not be a bigger market than the US even if they are just 1/4 th as rich?
This is not to say that US will become poor suddenly. It has invested very wisely in infrasturcture which will be very valuable for it in times of need. It will only loose its premminent role in the world.
The biggest danger in future will not be the internal demographics as some one says here but the ability of the US to accept this futrure in which it does not have a dominant role as it has now. Its military will not disappear over night neither will its thousands of nuclear weapons. We are seeing a future conflict where a instrangient US will not accept its new place in the world and loaded with the thousands of Nuclear Weapons and no political or moral compusion not to use them.
Let us enjoy our present realtive calm what will come next will be very horrific.
past achivemnts are not a garuntee for future comfort and the social system of the US is not based on any moral value but on the capabilty of the rich to provide an shot at the purisut of happiness. Ie the socitey as clamied by the founders of the US is not based on moral values but on the social contract of the rich to the poor in which the poor are given a chance go gain better life and at times get rich this is what will keep order in the socitey.
What happens when the rich are not able to fullfil their side of the contract?
It will be intresting to see what happens a similar question was asked by a collumist in a southern californina newspaper who did not offer any conclusion.
Let us say Ill be buying gold and investing in education of people for the next few decades.
good article. It is amusing to see those who are settled here quite upset about anything that points to the future coming problems of the US.
From a economic point of view what your article points is largely true.
The efficeincy of the US Industry is also cited for its accumulation of riches. It is often seen coming from the first mass production in the world ie of ford.
However recent prodctvity increases are largley attributed to in the retailing part of the economy. Walmart is suppossed to be responsible for a major portion of this productvity improvement. Similarly the other gaint ie GE under Jack Welsh showed immpressive increase in growth and profits. Some analayse this due to the aggressive(first among the large companies)outsourcing of manufacturing to china. It is estimated that 70% of the manufacuring done by GE now comes from China or other location of outsourcing.
If this is the source of the current strength of the US economy vi a vi the other developed economies we know very well what the future can hold for the US
The other aspects ie of demographics, past achivements, persent social system etc. It is intresting to analyse these. Some one was quoting the presence of nobel prize winners, intellectual capital etc. yes we can look at absoute figures and make conclusions. The art of predicting is not based on current but on relative paramaters. Let us take the case of circa 1950 and crica 2003. US a large land with inherent landbased wealth plus the intellectual wealth of a advanced eurpoean based knowledge system further enchanced by fleeing intellecutals, technocrats etc from europe was a leader in this aspect in the world. Add to this a large economy you have things going very well. On the other hand there was asia, practically poor in every sense especially in education and technical knowledge and of course no large economy to compare with the US.
Cut to present. Would it be an exxegaration to say that the combined number of educated, tehchnological component people in china, India, Japan, ASEAN outnumber those in the US in sheer numbers in quality perhaps they dont but that is not because of capability but perhaps because of lack of opprotunity ie large local economy to service which is what demands innovations, absorbs the cost of research and provides access to market to experiment with new ideas and technologies.
But all this set to change. Japan already is a developed nation. China a large manufacturing base as is ASEAN, both innovation as well as research is possible as the internal economies become rich India is getting there ie with other than manufactruing and by exporting intellectuals who will certainly provide(and are providing)impetus to innovation as the market in India becomes capable of taking all those inputs.
But where does US stand in all this? Is the population increasing? are the number of technicaly compentet people in US increasing dramatically? Is the capability for Innovaiton a sole preserve of US? some thing that will not change in future?
On the other hand the recent position of US as expounded by the current administration has been taken note of by all governments in the world. As you will see that many rearrangemts are takign place in many countries in their startegic thinking vis a vi US. Some economists with chinese background call for china to ask for payments for its goods in near future(decade or two)in Yuan(therefore instead of china buying or recivigd dollars it will demand yuan)Is this possible scenario? yes it is.(wether it happens or not is a differnt case especially considering the current political situation). With other countries having recongnised the value of euro or other payments(mainly to redude the possibility for arm twisting from US) It will certainly become a trend I dont think that US will forever be able to use its military to settle such issues. Mahatir Mohammeds attempt for creation of gold dinar has found symphteic ears in some countries. As as his alterantive of using barter for trade as far as possible(some thing that India welcomes too.) One cant fight Ideas with the gun forever successfully.
There are nearly 3 billion people in Asia compared to the 280 million in US(increasingly getting old) Poor as these people are I dont doubt that they will be better off in future (which may be 2-4 decades away) will they not be a bigger market than the US even if they are just 1/4 th as rich?
This is not to say that US will become poor suddenly. It has invested very wisely in infrasturcture which will be very valuable for it in times of need. It will only loose its premminent role in the world.
The biggest danger in future will not be the internal demographics as some one says here but the ability of the US to accept this futrure in which it does not have a dominant role as it has now. Its military will not disappear over night neither will its thousands of nuclear weapons. We are seeing a future conflict where a instrangient US will not accept its new place in the world and loaded with the thousands of Nuclear Weapons and no political or moral compusion not to use them.
Let us enjoy our present realtive calm what will come next will be very horrific.
past achivemnts are not a garuntee for future comfort and the social system of the US is not based on any moral value but on the capabilty of the rich to provide an shot at the purisut of happiness. Ie the socitey as clamied by the founders of the US is not based on moral values but on the social contract of the rich to the poor in which the poor are given a chance go gain better life and at times get rich this is what will keep order in the socitey.
What happens when the rich are not able to fullfil their side of the contract?
It will be intresting to see what happens a similar question was asked by a collumist in a southern californina newspaper who did not offer any conclusion.
Let us say Ill be buying gold and investing in education of people for the next few decades.
#51 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2003 9:21:00 pm
SR #50 I hope for the sake of your real life that you are a fast typist (given the length of your post). You make two basic points, I think: (a) That democratic practices were prevalent in other societies and before the US, although the American Revolution represents a significant milestone; and (b) That I was wrong in writing that you hate the US.
Fair enough. I did go too far on (b), and I am glad to see you got folks proudly serving in the US Navy.
PS: On (b) can I at least claim that you hate the Federal Reserve members, and particularly Mr. ``Interest-free Economy`` Greenspan on down? You think Greenspan could be a mullah, lowering interest rates until they disappear?? Notice that you never see him and Mullah Omar together at the same place (like superman and Clark Kent)...I consider that very suspicious!!
PPS: Thanks for the tip on chowk popularity. Considering I shall be running for Senate in the Democratic Republic of Chowkistan next year, with dreams of running for President of Chowk four years from now, this tip is most timely.
Fair enough. I did go too far on (b), and I am glad to see you got folks proudly serving in the US Navy.
PS: On (b) can I at least claim that you hate the Federal Reserve members, and particularly Mr. ``Interest-free Economy`` Greenspan on down? You think Greenspan could be a mullah, lowering interest rates until they disappear?? Notice that you never see him and Mullah Omar together at the same place (like superman and Clark Kent)...I consider that very suspicious!!
PPS: Thanks for the tip on chowk popularity. Considering I shall be running for Senate in the Democratic Republic of Chowkistan next year, with dreams of running for President of Chowk four years from now, this tip is most timely.
#50 Posted by SR on July 7, 2003 4:20:46 pm
#48 rsridhar [“…tone down … ultra-bold headings? They are … jarring to the eyes…”]
Please accept my regrets. It was an unintended error. Not being proficient with HTML I failed to ‘switch off’ the large font size of the ultra-bold heading. It was supposed to have high-lighted only one word of that. As for normal font size bold letters, they are used sparingly and then only to stress upon a point. I also use them to highlight snippets of the other InterActor’s message in “…quote…” marks. This is meant to make it easier on the eye but if other inter-actors feel that it is hard on the eye, I’ll gladly cease and desist.
#47 tahmed [“…(a) there were pockets of democracy prior to the American Revolution - those pockets did not spread very far either in time or in space.
Ancient Rome … had democratic beginnings … any flames of democracy were quickly snuffed out…
Ancient India contributed much … but democratic … institutions were not one of them. Any democracy that existed was like the ``democracy`` we have in the tribal areas - which is more of a gerontocracy.
…even Athenian democracy died out …”]
I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue over the ‘democracy’ in ancient India, which I contend was the first in the world and was longer lasting and more widespread than ancient Greece. For starters I recommend you look up the following two links:
www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITdemocracyindiaframeset.htm
And :
www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_muhlb_democra.htm
The Greek ‘democracies’ also lasted for many centuries and Rome was a republic for over five hundred years until the mid first century BC. During the Republic days Rome ruled over what is present-day France, Lower Countries, Spain, Italy, Malta, Corsica, Siscilly, Malta, Cyprus, Solvenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Albania, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Egypt, North Libya, Tunesia, North Algeria and North Morrocco.
Now let’s be reasonable, Mr. Amhed. I wouldn’t exactly describe this as “not spread very far either in time or in space… and …quickly snuffed out…” !! Would you??
The American republic, by contrast, has not even hit the 250 year mark as yet.
[“…(b) modern democratic institutions (characterized by separation of powers of the three arms of government) find their roots in the US…”]
The idea of ‘separation of powers’ are not uniquely a product of the American Revolution. These ideas also have their roots in the Revolt of Parliament in England during the mid-1600s. Before that the early Dutch and Swiss ‘democracies’ also believed in independence of judiciary. All this was happening before anyone had even heard of the Boston Tea Party.
I never disputed that the American Revolution was a great watershed, all I said was that you should not make sweeping statements based on limited information.
[“…(c) Your strong (and ultimately irrational) feelings of hatred for the US blind you …
If you really believed that you had facts … (then)… you would not need to use these huge fonts …”]
Again, you are making statements about things you have not the least idea. All you are doing is airing your prejudice. What do you know about my (or anyone else’s) love or hate with anything or anybody, be it rational or otherwise? What gives you the right to imagine that you have such wisdom?
And what is this illogical rubbish that since I chose a certain font size I don’t really believe that I have any facts to support my stance? Huh? Are you all right?
I despise the political establishment and the vested interests in the huge bureaucracies. I believe that the US Federal Reserve is one of the great evils on Earth. And let me give you a clue as to why I believe that.
The academics who run central banks but have never made a penny`s worth of profit in the marketplace and are totally pay-check dependent for their livelihoods are not the best qualified to run the world’s monetary system. College professors and university economists running central banks are not the one`s who can provide answers. Clueless idiots like Greenspan, who personal careers were disastrous failures in the private sector and went scurrying for the safety of their government jobs now have power and influence to create a total mess which they are creating as anyone with common sense and a perspective on history can see. They have power in a corrupt and doomed system and that power is mistaken for capability and genius. It`s a tragic-comedy. The world monetary system is going to hell in a handbasket and these morons are doing the same thing that caused the problem in the first place, i.e., creating more and more credit. That is just like giving a heroin addict more and more heroin in the hope of preventing his collapse.
I am a US citizen as are my offsprings. My child’s mother, that is my wife, was born and raised in America as were her parents. I live, eat, drink, breath, socialize, love, hate, laugh and cry among Americans. One of my wife’s siblings is in the Navy as were other relatives. My strong criticism against the evils in the American system are not based on any Jehadi hatred nor does it make us blind to any facts. A thinking person can distinguish between criticism and hatred. But there is a colonial slave mentality of people, sometimes seen on Chowk, who think that criticism of the establishment’s prevailing system can only mean an “irrational hatred” that makes the critic “blind to any reason.” Such people usually have irrational blind loyalties to their particular choice brand of religion or nationalism or culture or ideology.
So in future think before you make statements based on assumptions.
Let me ask you this. Would it be reasonable for someone to make assumptions about what you think or feel?
As an example, suppose someone here claimed that you were a liar and a thief. They said you were stealing from your employer. They make this statement on the observation that you lurk around Chowk.com reading and typing messages all day long when you are supposedly at work. They may thus conclude that you were not being honest to your employer and were virtually stealing money by not earning it while you were supposedly at work. Now would that be reasonable? I think not. For all that person knows you could be an independently wealthy gentleman of leisure who could do with his time as he damn well pleases. Thus by calling you a thief that person will have only expressed his closed minded prejudice against you for totally different reasons. Perhaps that person had a dislike towards you because he may consider you obnoxious, irritating, boring, repetitive, unimaginative and generally disagreeable, irrelevant and nonsensical. It would, indeed, be unfair of this hypothetical person to have judged you thus. Perhaps he may be projecting his own deficiencies on others. He might just have an inferiority complex and a sense of sexual inadequacy because he had a small penis and he was just taking out his frustrations by being uncivil to others. The point is that such a person would be utterly out of line to make any assumptions about you and make assertions based on them.
Therefore, I hope, Ahmed sahib, you will refrain from making prejudicial assumptions about others’ thoughts or feelings. Please, think about it Ahmed sahib. It may even help your popularity.
...SR
Please accept my regrets. It was an unintended error. Not being proficient with HTML I failed to ‘switch off’ the large font size of the ultra-bold heading. It was supposed to have high-lighted only one word of that. As for normal font size bold letters, they are used sparingly and then only to stress upon a point. I also use them to highlight snippets of the other InterActor’s message in “…quote…” marks. This is meant to make it easier on the eye but if other inter-actors feel that it is hard on the eye, I’ll gladly cease and desist.
#47 tahmed [“…(a) there were pockets of democracy prior to the American Revolution - those pockets did not spread very far either in time or in space.
Ancient Rome … had democratic beginnings … any flames of democracy were quickly snuffed out…
Ancient India contributed much … but democratic … institutions were not one of them. Any democracy that existed was like the ``democracy`` we have in the tribal areas - which is more of a gerontocracy.
…even Athenian democracy died out …”]
I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue over the ‘democracy’ in ancient India, which I contend was the first in the world and was longer lasting and more widespread than ancient Greece. For starters I recommend you look up the following two links:
www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITdemocracyindiaframeset.htm
And :
www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_muhlb_democra.htm
The Greek ‘democracies’ also lasted for many centuries and Rome was a republic for over five hundred years until the mid first century BC. During the Republic days Rome ruled over what is present-day France, Lower Countries, Spain, Italy, Malta, Corsica, Siscilly, Malta, Cyprus, Solvenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Albania, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Egypt, North Libya, Tunesia, North Algeria and North Morrocco.
Now let’s be reasonable, Mr. Amhed. I wouldn’t exactly describe this as “not spread very far either in time or in space… and …quickly snuffed out…” !! Would you??
The American republic, by contrast, has not even hit the 250 year mark as yet.
[“…(b) modern democratic institutions (characterized by separation of powers of the three arms of government) find their roots in the US…”]
The idea of ‘separation of powers’ are not uniquely a product of the American Revolution. These ideas also have their roots in the Revolt of Parliament in England during the mid-1600s. Before that the early Dutch and Swiss ‘democracies’ also believed in independence of judiciary. All this was happening before anyone had even heard of the Boston Tea Party.
I never disputed that the American Revolution was a great watershed, all I said was that you should not make sweeping statements based on limited information.
[“…(c) Your strong (and ultimately irrational) feelings of hatred for the US blind you …
If you really believed that you had facts … (then)… you would not need to use these huge fonts …”]
Again, you are making statements about things you have not the least idea. All you are doing is airing your prejudice. What do you know about my (or anyone else’s) love or hate with anything or anybody, be it rational or otherwise? What gives you the right to imagine that you have such wisdom?
And what is this illogical rubbish that since I chose a certain font size I don’t really believe that I have any facts to support my stance? Huh? Are you all right?
I despise the political establishment and the vested interests in the huge bureaucracies. I believe that the US Federal Reserve is one of the great evils on Earth. And let me give you a clue as to why I believe that.
The academics who run central banks but have never made a penny`s worth of profit in the marketplace and are totally pay-check dependent for their livelihoods are not the best qualified to run the world’s monetary system. College professors and university economists running central banks are not the one`s who can provide answers. Clueless idiots like Greenspan, who personal careers were disastrous failures in the private sector and went scurrying for the safety of their government jobs now have power and influence to create a total mess which they are creating as anyone with common sense and a perspective on history can see. They have power in a corrupt and doomed system and that power is mistaken for capability and genius. It`s a tragic-comedy. The world monetary system is going to hell in a handbasket and these morons are doing the same thing that caused the problem in the first place, i.e., creating more and more credit. That is just like giving a heroin addict more and more heroin in the hope of preventing his collapse.
I am a US citizen as are my offsprings. My child’s mother, that is my wife, was born and raised in America as were her parents. I live, eat, drink, breath, socialize, love, hate, laugh and cry among Americans. One of my wife’s siblings is in the Navy as were other relatives. My strong criticism against the evils in the American system are not based on any Jehadi hatred nor does it make us blind to any facts. A thinking person can distinguish between criticism and hatred. But there is a colonial slave mentality of people, sometimes seen on Chowk, who think that criticism of the establishment’s prevailing system can only mean an “irrational hatred” that makes the critic “blind to any reason.” Such people usually have irrational blind loyalties to their particular choice brand of religion or nationalism or culture or ideology.
So in future think before you make statements based on assumptions.
Let me ask you this. Would it be reasonable for someone to make assumptions about what you think or feel?
As an example, suppose someone here claimed that you were a liar and a thief. They said you were stealing from your employer. They make this statement on the observation that you lurk around Chowk.com reading and typing messages all day long when you are supposedly at work. They may thus conclude that you were not being honest to your employer and were virtually stealing money by not earning it while you were supposedly at work. Now would that be reasonable? I think not. For all that person knows you could be an independently wealthy gentleman of leisure who could do with his time as he damn well pleases. Thus by calling you a thief that person will have only expressed his closed minded prejudice against you for totally different reasons. Perhaps that person had a dislike towards you because he may consider you obnoxious, irritating, boring, repetitive, unimaginative and generally disagreeable, irrelevant and nonsensical. It would, indeed, be unfair of this hypothetical person to have judged you thus. Perhaps he may be projecting his own deficiencies on others. He might just have an inferiority complex and a sense of sexual inadequacy because he had a small penis and he was just taking out his frustrations by being uncivil to others. The point is that such a person would be utterly out of line to make any assumptions about you and make assertions based on them.
Therefore, I hope, Ahmed sahib, you will refrain from making prejudicial assumptions about others’ thoughts or feelings. Please, think about it Ahmed sahib. It may even help your popularity.
...SR
#49 Posted by bharatvaasi on July 7, 2003 8:12:41 am
something is wrong with the interacts here. This should be a pretty strong topic for the likes of Jay and co, the should be able to bring their special wisdom and apply it here. God, never thought I would say this but I sure am missing their invaluable input here.
Hey just kidding.....was pleasently surprised and all that....no jay and no mishrajis around. Even the ever present ever effervescent Arjum_m is missing. Have their fingers got tired and lost their hand eye coordination! Have they been banned by the chowk_pc_police_wannabes!
Hey just kidding.....was pleasently surprised and all that....no jay and no mishrajis around. Even the ever present ever effervescent Arjum_m is missing. Have their fingers got tired and lost their hand eye coordination! Have they been banned by the chowk_pc_police_wannabes!
#48 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2003 7:25:31 am
SR #46 While there were pockets of democracy prior to the American Revolution, the examples you provide simply confirm what I wrote - those pockets did not spread very far either in time or in space. Ancient Rome may have had democratic beginnings as you say, but any flames of democracy were quickly snuffed out. Ancient India contributed much to mankind, but democratic ideals or institutions were not one of them. Any democracy that existed was like the ``democracy`` we have in the tribal areas of Pakistan nowadays - which is more of a gerontocracy. The case for Ancient Greece is stronger, but even Athenian democracy died out and was replaced by kingships and Grecian ideas of free speech and so on lay buried for thousands of years. Modern democratic ideals that are now generally accepted all across the world, and modern democratic institutions (characterized by separation of powers of the three arms of government) find their roots in the US. The only serious challenge posed to these ideals is among the half-brained Islamic fanatics, who still live in a world of the Divine Right of Caliphs.
Your strong (and ultimately irrational) feelings of hatred for the US blind you to such simple facts. If you really believed that you had facts that proved that the American Revolution was not the first significant blow to the institution of kingship, you would not need to use these huge fonts (the internet equivalent of trying to shout someone down).
Your strong (and ultimately irrational) feelings of hatred for the US blind you to such simple facts. If you really believed that you had facts that proved that the American Revolution was not the first significant blow to the institution of kingship, you would not need to use these huge fonts (the internet equivalent of trying to shout someone down).
#47 Posted by rsridhar on July 7, 2003 7:25:31 am
re:#46 by SR
Thanks for your informative post. I enjoyed the part related to statistics.
One request. Can you please tone down the bold letters and ultra-bold headings? They are kind of jarring to the eyes.
Sridhar
Thanks for your informative post. I enjoyed the part related to statistics.
One request. Can you please tone down the bold letters and ultra-bold headings? They are kind of jarring to the eyes.
Sridhar
#46 Posted by SR on July 7, 2003 12:49:31 am
#32 tahmed [“…the american revolution represented the first time that the globally accepted institution of kingship was challenged and overthrown. …”]
There you go again, Ahmed sahib, making sweeping statements that border of hyperbole.
Unquestionably, the American Revolution represents a great triumph of political institution building and a “great step forward” for human society, but please don’t go so far as to claim that it was the first time. A republic as opposed to a monarchy may have been relatively new to the Anglo-Saxon, but others have know republics since time immemorial. It can be argued, with some justification, that the Indian subcontinent has the world’s oldest tradition of democracy and/or republicanism. (Let us not credit the British for giving “democracy” to India.) India had its indigenous democracies even before the ancient Greek republics of the sixth century BC. Early Rome was also a republic and down through the late Middle Ages many societies through Scandinavia, the Lower Countries, and Germanic states had various forms of republics with varying degrees of political power sharing arrangements among several leaders of the community. Likewise there were non-monarchial systems of governance in parts of Asia, Africa and among Native American people.
#33 faisaluno [“…(a) political side of the ledger is not looking too good either
(b)… what makes america great… (is)… that it has enough people in position of authority who are willing to act on their conscience even if it means going against popular opinion and against official state sponsored ideology.
(c)…compare this with what goes on in pak. …”]
(a)…Political system cannot be immune to economic pressures and as the economy goes further out of whack there will be, inevitably, greater political disaffection.
(b)…Yes, this has traditionally been the greatness of America, or indeed of any other society that had such political tolerance. But I wonder if this great quality is not receding to some degree as the American society becomes increasingly paranoid and closed minded.
(c)…Please!! There is NO comparison. America would have to get ten times more fascistic and militant while Pakistan would have to improve ten fold (both unlikely occurrences) before one could even begin to draw any parallels.
#38 Romair [“…Would you happen to have the background of doing an analysis of Pakistan`s economy, without any political/democratic biases, its present and future, in comparison to where it was three years ago..”]
First, please let me make no bones about it. I am not an economist, accountant or financial professional. I am merely a layman albeit a keen observer and a devoted student of the markets and the economy. For full clarification please go to Chowk FOMC column page and click on confession, history, structure, bias and philosophy to read about my lack of formal credentials.
I have very little reliable objective information on Pakistan and what little I do know is anecdotal, and therefore insufficient to draw meaningful conclusions about the current economic situation there compared to three years ago. Furthermore, there are several “confounding factors” that have come into play over the last three years that substantially change the background against which one could judge any improvement or deterioration.
Regardless of who runs that country, over time, the macroeconomic picture is substantially effected by global forces that are at work in the background. It is quite possible that anything going on in Karachi or Islamabad would amount to little more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Bankers, industrialists, bureaucrats, politicians, merchants, foreign consultants and investors will each have their own perspective on “the economy,” but they are like the six blind men describing an elephant while each fumbles over a different body part –trunk, ears, leg, tusk, body, tail-- of the beast.
To me, however, the important yard-stick for a country like Pakistan is the standard of living and quality of life of the average person. If that, in the aggregate, is not getting better then all the super highways, bridges and buildings or all the balances of payment, IMF loan re-scheduling and central bank reserves or stock market gains or factory outputs or new airport terminals or Aid packages are hollow and meaningless.
There is no question that more people have more available to them than before, but by the same token there are more people in the country now than there were before, so has anything changed? I certainly don’t know. But on my visits there I make an effort to make some observations and meet with as diverse a sample of people as possible.
Having traveled to some off the beaten track places it is my distinct impression that the average poor person’s life is getting harder year after year, and that is a continuous process, irrespective of who masquerades as the nation’s messiah in Islamabad and regardless of what the six blind men tell us about the economy’s health.
Not only that, there is another ugly reality. All else aside, Pakistan has two monumental problems which are potentially catastrophic within the next three decades, and they seem to have no visible solution. If my some magic or miracle all existing ethnic, religious, political, educational and Pak-Bharat dushmani problems were solved today, even then the future is bleak and the outcome catastrophic because of those two primary problems. They are (1) demographics, and (2) fresh water shortage. This is a long subject and one which I cannot go over in this space-time.
#40 Maharana [“… sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in.”
Further in the same vein...
``But life shows her irony, through islamists doing the same, with contrary results``.
I`d deliberately refrained from writing this additional statement for fear of dragging this thread to a Hindu-Muslim mudslinging. …”]
I greately appreciate your wisdom of avoiding the risk of starting a Hindu-Muslim fasaad in this space. I was also going to give an anecdote that may have provoked an angry response from some quarters, so I restrained myself. When I was defending Jefferson despite the fact that he’d been less than a perfect angel in his personal conduct it occurred to me to give the example of a great religious leader whom many of the devoted hold in the utmost high reverence. I consider him a great man and a successful leader. But I do not hold some of his obvious personal weaknesses against him which his harsh critics scream and yell about. And thus they get in mudslinging matches with his faithful followers.
#41 nasah [“… a delinquent dyslexic dimwit …who the hell he thinks will pay for all this -- his dad?
… this MORON has to go in Nov 2004 -- moral bankruptcy we can live with -- but financial bankruptcy?
... get this monkey off our back -- AND -- our wallet …”]
From your mouth to the ears of God. Amen.
#42 rsridhar [“… (a) much of America`s prosperity has to do with unleashing private enterprise…
(b) the important role of immigrant population towards economic prosperity …America still needs a large number of immigrant population for economic growth.
(c) USA is today not only the sole superpower but also an economic power.
(d) U.S. industrial production is six times larger than in 1950…”]
(a)…Agreed with your statement fully.
But the tragedy is that today the burden of government interference and cronyism on the economy has become so great that at this rate a day will come when this will start resembling the Soviet Union more than the glorious America of yore.
(b)…Again agreed, but that too is changing as xenophobia and paranoia is beginning to set in, immigration laws are being tightened and this trend is actually being encouraged by the likes of Herr Johannas Ashcroft, Herr Adolf Juliani and Herr Rumsfeld.
(c)… The future of the US economic power is at a high risk because of the criminal deeds of the political mafia in Washington DC that has spared no effort in manipulating and distorting the world’s most robust and efficient economy for their own narrow and short-sighted interests.
(d)… I hope you don’t believe everything the pimps of The Creature From Jackall Island (the Fed) write and say. If you think Enron & WorldCom pulled wool over America’s eyes, wait till you find out how much lie the Fed and the Treasury & the White House feed the gullible and trusting citizens of the country.
Half truths can be worse than outright lies. This six fold increase in Industrial production since 1950 is just such a half truth which has obviously smart and educated people like you convinced.
What metric is being used here? How does it translate? Are they measuring “production” in terms of widgets or dollars? How about as a percentage of GDP? How about a percentage of worldwide output compared to the 1950s? We all know that today even a poor clerk is richer than a king in the Middle Ages. So absolute numbers cannot be a relevant measure when comparing two points in time centuries or even decades apart. How about production in terms of percentage of total demand for those widgets compared to 1950? Are they using a hedonic factor in their measurement?
Yes, that’s a good one: HEDONIC FACTOR. Let’s talk about this for a minute. This is one of the many, many ways the government lies to the people without anyone realizing it. I’ll explain:
We’ve all heard the Fed chief pimp, Alan Greenslime, extol the virtues of “enhanced productivity” in the US. I’ll tell you how they get those huge productivity gains that absurdly magnify the (much smaller) real productivity gain by creative use of statistical wizardry. I had once thought these things only happened in Pakistan. Mr. Bhutto, for example, increased the country’s literacy rate substantially by the simple trick of redefining the term “literacy.” What genius.
There is a joke about the misuse of statistics. A rich businessman hired a statistician and asked him to calculate his odds of being in a plane with a bomb on board. The statistician calculated the odds but the businessman thought they were too high. So he asked the statistician if there was anything he could do to improve his odds since he was a frequent flyer and wished to reduce risk of being on a plane with a bomb.
The statistician advised him to carry a bomb in his brief case at all times because that way his probability of being in a plane with TWO bombs would be far, far smaller.
Similarly, in the US during the early 1990s the government statisticians were faced with a puzzling question regarding productivity measurement.
Computer power was increasing at an astonishing rate. The politicians wanted to somehow quantify and capture the qualitative improvements in the technological products. So the statisticians came up with a two pronged approach.
First, they increased the weighing of technology products in the GDP calculations so that an enhancement in technology would have a proportionately greater impact on the GDP numbers.
Second, they invented the “hedonic factor.” To explain what the hedonic factor is let me give an illustration.
Suppose we have a worker who is paid $10 per hour. In one hour he produces one microchip. This is a 40 Mega Hertz microchip. Now let us fast forward one year and go back to the same worker. We see that he is now getting paid $12 per hour and he is still making one microchip during that one hour. The difference is that because of improvements in technology this new microchip is a 400 Mega Hertz chip. Now therefore, we do some jantar-mantar-choo-mantar and calculate an algebraic equivalent of his salary so that we account for the technological advance. By equalizing the 40 MH chip with the new 400 MH chip we back calculate that our worker is actually making only $1.20 per hour. Thus compared to $10 an hour last year we’ve seen a huge increase in productivity. Never mind the fact that the actual dollars he is taking home to buy groceries with are $12 per hour. This is the magic of hedonics. I prefer to call it a WHITE LIE.
The government LIES and LIES and LIES. And those who don’t believe it should go out tomorrow and invest all their life’s savings in government bonds.
#44 ferozk
Thank you for breaking your code of silence (has it been two weeks?) and leaving a good word.
...SR
There you go again, Ahmed sahib, making sweeping statements that border of hyperbole.
Unquestionably, the American Revolution represents a great triumph of political institution building and a “great step forward” for human society, but please don’t go so far as to claim that it was the first time. A republic as opposed to a monarchy may have been relatively new to the Anglo-Saxon, but others have know republics since time immemorial. It can be argued, with some justification, that the Indian subcontinent has the world’s oldest tradition of democracy and/or republicanism. (Let us not credit the British for giving “democracy” to India.) India had its indigenous democracies even before the ancient Greek republics of the sixth century BC. Early Rome was also a republic and down through the late Middle Ages many societies through Scandinavia, the Lower Countries, and Germanic states had various forms of republics with varying degrees of political power sharing arrangements among several leaders of the community. Likewise there were non-monarchial systems of governance in parts of Asia, Africa and among Native American people.
#33 faisaluno [“…(a) political side of the ledger is not looking too good either
(b)… what makes america great… (is)… that it has enough people in position of authority who are willing to act on their conscience even if it means going against popular opinion and against official state sponsored ideology.
(c)…compare this with what goes on in pak. …”]
(a)…Political system cannot be immune to economic pressures and as the economy goes further out of whack there will be, inevitably, greater political disaffection.
(b)…Yes, this has traditionally been the greatness of America, or indeed of any other society that had such political tolerance. But I wonder if this great quality is not receding to some degree as the American society becomes increasingly paranoid and closed minded.
(c)…Please!! There is NO comparison. America would have to get ten times more fascistic and militant while Pakistan would have to improve ten fold (both unlikely occurrences) before one could even begin to draw any parallels.
#38 Romair [“…Would you happen to have the background of doing an analysis of Pakistan`s economy, without any political/democratic biases, its present and future, in comparison to where it was three years ago..”]
First, please let me make no bones about it. I am not an economist, accountant or financial professional. I am merely a layman albeit a keen observer and a devoted student of the markets and the economy. For full clarification please go to Chowk FOMC column page and click on confession, history, structure, bias and philosophy to read about my lack of formal credentials.
I have very little reliable objective information on Pakistan and what little I do know is anecdotal, and therefore insufficient to draw meaningful conclusions about the current economic situation there compared to three years ago. Furthermore, there are several “confounding factors” that have come into play over the last three years that substantially change the background against which one could judge any improvement or deterioration.
Regardless of who runs that country, over time, the macroeconomic picture is substantially effected by global forces that are at work in the background. It is quite possible that anything going on in Karachi or Islamabad would amount to little more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Bankers, industrialists, bureaucrats, politicians, merchants, foreign consultants and investors will each have their own perspective on “the economy,” but they are like the six blind men describing an elephant while each fumbles over a different body part –trunk, ears, leg, tusk, body, tail-- of the beast.
To me, however, the important yard-stick for a country like Pakistan is the standard of living and quality of life of the average person. If that, in the aggregate, is not getting better then all the super highways, bridges and buildings or all the balances of payment, IMF loan re-scheduling and central bank reserves or stock market gains or factory outputs or new airport terminals or Aid packages are hollow and meaningless.
There is no question that more people have more available to them than before, but by the same token there are more people in the country now than there were before, so has anything changed? I certainly don’t know. But on my visits there I make an effort to make some observations and meet with as diverse a sample of people as possible.
Having traveled to some off the beaten track places it is my distinct impression that the average poor person’s life is getting harder year after year, and that is a continuous process, irrespective of who masquerades as the nation’s messiah in Islamabad and regardless of what the six blind men tell us about the economy’s health.
Not only that, there is another ugly reality. All else aside, Pakistan has two monumental problems which are potentially catastrophic within the next three decades, and they seem to have no visible solution. If my some magic or miracle all existing ethnic, religious, political, educational and Pak-Bharat dushmani problems were solved today, even then the future is bleak and the outcome catastrophic because of those two primary problems. They are (1) demographics, and (2) fresh water shortage. This is a long subject and one which I cannot go over in this space-time.
#40 Maharana [“… sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in.”
Further in the same vein...
``But life shows her irony, through islamists doing the same, with contrary results``.
I`d deliberately refrained from writing this additional statement for fear of dragging this thread to a Hindu-Muslim mudslinging. …”]
I greately appreciate your wisdom of avoiding the risk of starting a Hindu-Muslim fasaad in this space. I was also going to give an anecdote that may have provoked an angry response from some quarters, so I restrained myself. When I was defending Jefferson despite the fact that he’d been less than a perfect angel in his personal conduct it occurred to me to give the example of a great religious leader whom many of the devoted hold in the utmost high reverence. I consider him a great man and a successful leader. But I do not hold some of his obvious personal weaknesses against him which his harsh critics scream and yell about. And thus they get in mudslinging matches with his faithful followers.
#41 nasah [“… a delinquent dyslexic dimwit …who the hell he thinks will pay for all this -- his dad?
… this MORON has to go in Nov 2004 -- moral bankruptcy we can live with -- but financial bankruptcy?
... get this monkey off our back -- AND -- our wallet …”]
From your mouth to the ears of God. Amen.
#42 rsridhar [“… (a) much of America`s prosperity has to do with unleashing private enterprise…
(b) the important role of immigrant population towards economic prosperity …America still needs a large number of immigrant population for economic growth.
(c) USA is today not only the sole superpower but also an economic power.
(d) U.S. industrial production is six times larger than in 1950…”]
(a)…Agreed with your statement fully.
But the tragedy is that today the burden of government interference and cronyism on the economy has become so great that at this rate a day will come when this will start resembling the Soviet Union more than the glorious America of yore.
(b)…Again agreed, but that too is changing as xenophobia and paranoia is beginning to set in, immigration laws are being tightened and this trend is actually being encouraged by the likes of Herr Johannas Ashcroft, Herr Adolf Juliani and Herr Rumsfeld.
(c)… The future of the US economic power is at a high risk because of the criminal deeds of the political mafia in Washington DC that has spared no effort in manipulating and distorting the world’s most robust and efficient economy for their own narrow and short-sighted interests.
(d)… I hope you don’t believe everything the pimps of The Creature From Jackall Island (the Fed) write and say. If you think Enron & WorldCom pulled wool over America’s eyes, wait till you find out how much lie the Fed and the Treasury & the White House feed the gullible and trusting citizens of the country.
Half truths can be worse than outright lies. This six fold increase in Industrial production since 1950 is just such a half truth which has obviously smart and educated people like you convinced.
What metric is being used here? How does it translate? Are they measuring “production” in terms of widgets or dollars? How about as a percentage of GDP? How about a percentage of worldwide output compared to the 1950s? We all know that today even a poor clerk is richer than a king in the Middle Ages. So absolute numbers cannot be a relevant measure when comparing two points in time centuries or even decades apart. How about production in terms of percentage of total demand for those widgets compared to 1950? Are they using a hedonic factor in their measurement?
Yes, that’s a good one: HEDONIC FACTOR. Let’s talk about this for a minute. This is one of the many, many ways the government lies to the people without anyone realizing it. I’ll explain:
We’ve all heard the Fed chief pimp, Alan Greenslime, extol the virtues of “enhanced productivity” in the US. I’ll tell you how they get those huge productivity gains that absurdly magnify the (much smaller) real productivity gain by creative use of statistical wizardry. I had once thought these things only happened in Pakistan. Mr. Bhutto, for example, increased the country’s literacy rate substantially by the simple trick of redefining the term “literacy.” What genius.
There is a joke about the misuse of statistics. A rich businessman hired a statistician and asked him to calculate his odds of being in a plane with a bomb on board. The statistician calculated the odds but the businessman thought they were too high. So he asked the statistician if there was anything he could do to improve his odds since he was a frequent flyer and wished to reduce risk of being on a plane with a bomb.
The statistician advised him to carry a bomb in his brief case at all times because that way his probability of being in a plane with TWO bombs would be far, far smaller.
Similarly, in the US during the early 1990s the government statisticians were faced with a puzzling question regarding productivity measurement.
Computer power was increasing at an astonishing rate. The politicians wanted to somehow quantify and capture the qualitative improvements in the technological products. So the statisticians came up with a two pronged approach.
First, they increased the weighing of technology products in the GDP calculations so that an enhancement in technology would have a proportionately greater impact on the GDP numbers.
Second, they invented the “hedonic factor.” To explain what the hedonic factor is let me give an illustration.
Suppose we have a worker who is paid $10 per hour. In one hour he produces one microchip. This is a 40 Mega Hertz microchip. Now let us fast forward one year and go back to the same worker. We see that he is now getting paid $12 per hour and he is still making one microchip during that one hour. The difference is that because of improvements in technology this new microchip is a 400 Mega Hertz chip. Now therefore, we do some jantar-mantar-choo-mantar and calculate an algebraic equivalent of his salary so that we account for the technological advance. By equalizing the 40 MH chip with the new 400 MH chip we back calculate that our worker is actually making only $1.20 per hour. Thus compared to $10 an hour last year we’ve seen a huge increase in productivity. Never mind the fact that the actual dollars he is taking home to buy groceries with are $12 per hour. This is the magic of hedonics. I prefer to call it a WHITE LIE.
The government LIES and LIES and LIES. And those who don’t believe it should go out tomorrow and invest all their life’s savings in government bonds.
#44 ferozk
Thank you for breaking your code of silence (has it been two weeks?) and leaving a good word.
...SR
#45 Posted by rsridhar on July 6, 2003 7:18:24 am
re:#43 by nasah
Presidents come and go. This one will go too. Eventually.
But this president`s popularity increased with the perception of threat to national security following 9/11. I do not even remember what his agenda was prior to that. I think he was big on tax cuts but what else? 9/11 changed all that. In one stroke, Bush gained the kind of popularity that one can only dream about.
A superpower, when challenged, reacted in the only way a superpower would react. In the process, some excesses have been committed but they are inevitable. We can go on debating if attacking Iraq was right or wrong. But i am surprised at the reaction of the muslim world. What has saddam Hussein done for them anyway? Did he not attack a muslim country many years ago? Did he not use chemical weapons on his own populaton? If USA perceived him to be a security risk, then it thought it fit to eliminate that risk. Of course, there are deeper plots and the truth will never be known. Iraq`s oil fields have been secured for future. If saudi arabia becomes a great threat, US would do the same to the House of Sauds that it did to Iraq. Attacking Iraq was easy but convincing Americans about the necessity of this attack has not been so easy. Having secured its interests in Iraq, it needs to get the hell out of Iraq and let a coalition of forces do the governing. Ultimately, Iraqi people need to be involved in governance. I do not know when that will happen.
I disagree when you say that America is the most hated country in the world. It is not hated in India. I doubt if Chinese hate America though they may envy the American value system and prosperity. So, already much of the world does not hate america. It is only the rabid mullah types in the Islamic world who hate america. They have always hated America. Now they have more reason to do so (after Iraq invasion).
All this still does not change the fact that USA is still the greatest country in the world. An immigrant like me with a funny sounding name (funny to most Americans i am sure) still can make a decent living because of talent and education AND not because of where i am born or my caste or if i have the right connections. It is this system that is worth preserving and fighting for.
Sridhar
Presidents come and go. This one will go too. Eventually.
But this president`s popularity increased with the perception of threat to national security following 9/11. I do not even remember what his agenda was prior to that. I think he was big on tax cuts but what else? 9/11 changed all that. In one stroke, Bush gained the kind of popularity that one can only dream about.
A superpower, when challenged, reacted in the only way a superpower would react. In the process, some excesses have been committed but they are inevitable. We can go on debating if attacking Iraq was right or wrong. But i am surprised at the reaction of the muslim world. What has saddam Hussein done for them anyway? Did he not attack a muslim country many years ago? Did he not use chemical weapons on his own populaton? If USA perceived him to be a security risk, then it thought it fit to eliminate that risk. Of course, there are deeper plots and the truth will never be known. Iraq`s oil fields have been secured for future. If saudi arabia becomes a great threat, US would do the same to the House of Sauds that it did to Iraq. Attacking Iraq was easy but convincing Americans about the necessity of this attack has not been so easy. Having secured its interests in Iraq, it needs to get the hell out of Iraq and let a coalition of forces do the governing. Ultimately, Iraqi people need to be involved in governance. I do not know when that will happen.
I disagree when you say that America is the most hated country in the world. It is not hated in India. I doubt if Chinese hate America though they may envy the American value system and prosperity. So, already much of the world does not hate america. It is only the rabid mullah types in the Islamic world who hate america. They have always hated America. Now they have more reason to do so (after Iraq invasion).
All this still does not change the fact that USA is still the greatest country in the world. An immigrant like me with a funny sounding name (funny to most Americans i am sure) still can make a decent living because of talent and education AND not because of where i am born or my caste or if i have the right connections. It is this system that is worth preserving and fighting for.
Sridhar
#44 Posted by ferozk on July 6, 2003 1:06:39 am
re: SR
Another interesting article on a less known, but important theme in international relations. I really found this to be instructive.
Ciao
Another interesting article on a less known, but important theme in international relations. I really found this to be instructive.
Ciao
#43 Posted by nasah on July 6, 2003 12:10:08 am
sridhar -- this is the greatest country in the world -- ruled by the Biggest Bumbling Buffoon of the United States Presidency -- Born-Again-To-Kill
the worst President in the 200 hundred years old Presidential line of the United States.
elected/selected by the 5 Supreme Court Judges – NOT by the voters
look at this -- in JUST THREE years where we were and where we are now:
from the most respected country in the world -- to the MOST HATED country in the entire world --
from the most prosperous with a half a trillion dollar surplus budget -- to a more than trillion dollars deficit budget in just three years --
from no war with any country THREE years ago -- to war and with threats of war against half of the world --
from no American kids dying in a godforsaken foreign lands ONLY THREE ago -- to scores of our American sons killed and maimed -- every day – almost everywhere.
from the peacemakers of the world three years ago -- to the despicable colonial invaders and occupiers of sovereign foreign lands.
and yes this is the greatest country of the world --
because this LAWLESS president will be made one term migrant, transient worker -- will be PUNISHED for his illegal misdeeds and misbehavior -- of his cheating and LYING --
because WE the US voters will kick this aberration -- this dangerously demented war monger out from his accidental chair -- that he does not deserve to occupy --
we the voters of the United States will give the boot to this son-of-bush -- in Novemmber 2004 -- just the same way WE booted out his hyperthyroid father -- 11 years ago
and why?
because this IS the greatest country of the entire world -- a country that WILL live by the RULE OF LAW internationally -- as it WILL live by the RULE OF LAW -- nationally.
after November 2004 -- our boys ARE coming home -- not killing people in foreign lands -- and not getting killed and maimed by others -- in foreign lands.
George Bush is an Aberration and an Anomaly -- a transient phenomenon -- that WILL disappear as a blip from the rader of the American politics -- in keeping with the ideals aspirations and the history of this great land.
the worst President in the 200 hundred years old Presidential line of the United States.
elected/selected by the 5 Supreme Court Judges – NOT by the voters
look at this -- in JUST THREE years where we were and where we are now:
from the most respected country in the world -- to the MOST HATED country in the entire world --
from the most prosperous with a half a trillion dollar surplus budget -- to a more than trillion dollars deficit budget in just three years --
from no war with any country THREE years ago -- to war and with threats of war against half of the world --
from no American kids dying in a godforsaken foreign lands ONLY THREE ago -- to scores of our American sons killed and maimed -- every day – almost everywhere.
from the peacemakers of the world three years ago -- to the despicable colonial invaders and occupiers of sovereign foreign lands.
and yes this is the greatest country of the world --
because this LAWLESS president will be made one term migrant, transient worker -- will be PUNISHED for his illegal misdeeds and misbehavior -- of his cheating and LYING --
because WE the US voters will kick this aberration -- this dangerously demented war monger out from his accidental chair -- that he does not deserve to occupy --
we the voters of the United States will give the boot to this son-of-bush -- in Novemmber 2004 -- just the same way WE booted out his hyperthyroid father -- 11 years ago
and why?
because this IS the greatest country of the entire world -- a country that WILL live by the RULE OF LAW internationally -- as it WILL live by the RULE OF LAW -- nationally.
after November 2004 -- our boys ARE coming home -- not killing people in foreign lands -- and not getting killed and maimed by others -- in foreign lands.
George Bush is an Aberration and an Anomaly -- a transient phenomenon -- that WILL disappear as a blip from the rader of the American politics -- in keeping with the ideals aspirations and the history of this great land.
#42 Posted by nasah on July 5, 2003 10:07:05 pm
Does our Colony Building Imperial President -- besides being a delinquent dyslexic dimwit --suffer from – Adult Attention Deficit Disorder -- also called AADD/ADHD/ADD/ADS --
a condition that is considered to be a major cause of Juvenile Delinquency and Adult’s CHEATIN n LYIN Misbehavior.
According to our inimitable Maureen Down of New York Times he does….
MAUREEN DOWD
````Let`s apply the A.A.D.D. quiz to our fidgety president and his foreign policy team:
1) -- ``I find my mind wandering from tasks that are uninteresting or difficult.``
(Like nation building, which we said we`d never do but are muddling through now, with no coherent strategy, in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East, and soon in Liberia.)
2) -- ``I say things without thinking and later regret having said them.``
(Such as declaring we have ``prevailed`` in Iraq two months before the commander there admits, ``We`re still at war.``
Or bubbling about the statue of Saddam falling and then months later posting a $25 million bounty on the real Saddam`s head.
Or saying Saddam had W.M.D.`s that posed an imminent threat to us and then failing to find a single warhead.
Or saying we`d already found the weapons when all we`d found was some trashed trailer.
Or saying we`d get Osama ``dead or alive`` and Al Qaeda was ``on the run.``)
3) -- ``I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.``
(Such as how our troops will be targets in hostile, dangerous territory, stuck there for years sorting out tribal and sectarian warfare.)
4) -- ``I have a quick temper, a short fuse.``
(Like the president, taunting the Iraqi militants, saying, ``Bring `em on.`` Shouldn`t that sort of trash talking be reserved for football and Schwarzenegger sequels?
5) -- ``I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.``
(Such as threatening to rumble with North Korea and Iran while we`re still prone to stumble in Afghanistan and Iraq.)
6) -- ``In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.``
(Why wait for the pansy allies, even if you`ll need their help after?)
7) -- ``I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.``
(Yes. Al Qaeda is recrudescing. In Afghanistan, the Taliban is coming back, warlords rule and the vice and virtue police are at it again.
Iran and North Korea are defying us.
Saddam is still lurking, even as we struggle in Iraq to get the lights on, the oil industry up and the violence down.
We say everything is O.K. while the senators who went to Iraq last week say we`re stretched thin in the face of more and more attacks by Saddam loyalists.
Yep. These guys definitely have E.A.D.D. — Empire Attention Deficit Disorder.
(NYT)
Besides Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria North Korea Cuba -- yesterday it was Turkey`s Turn -- and today we are going to Liberia --
what this Trashy Tongue Twit from Tree Hopping Tarzana Texas is up to -- hopping from tree to tree around the world -- picking street fights with everybody --
who the hell he thinks will pay for all this -- his dad?
Folks this MORON has to go in Nov 2004 -- moral bankruptcy we can live with -- but financial bankruptcy? -- no way --
the stupido has to go –
so folks -- in 2004 PLEASE don’t forget to VOTE -- don`t forget to get this monkey off our back -- AND -- our wallet
a condition that is considered to be a major cause of Juvenile Delinquency and Adult’s CHEATIN n LYIN Misbehavior.
According to our inimitable Maureen Down of New York Times he does….
MAUREEN DOWD
````Let`s apply the A.A.D.D. quiz to our fidgety president and his foreign policy team:
1) -- ``I find my mind wandering from tasks that are uninteresting or difficult.``
(Like nation building, which we said we`d never do but are muddling through now, with no coherent strategy, in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East, and soon in Liberia.)
2) -- ``I say things without thinking and later regret having said them.``
(Such as declaring we have ``prevailed`` in Iraq two months before the commander there admits, ``We`re still at war.``
Or bubbling about the statue of Saddam falling and then months later posting a $25 million bounty on the real Saddam`s head.
Or saying Saddam had W.M.D.`s that posed an imminent threat to us and then failing to find a single warhead.
Or saying we`d already found the weapons when all we`d found was some trashed trailer.
Or saying we`d get Osama ``dead or alive`` and Al Qaeda was ``on the run.``)
3) -- ``I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.``
(Such as how our troops will be targets in hostile, dangerous territory, stuck there for years sorting out tribal and sectarian warfare.)
4) -- ``I have a quick temper, a short fuse.``
(Like the president, taunting the Iraqi militants, saying, ``Bring `em on.`` Shouldn`t that sort of trash talking be reserved for football and Schwarzenegger sequels?
5) -- ``I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.``
(Such as threatening to rumble with North Korea and Iran while we`re still prone to stumble in Afghanistan and Iraq.)
6) -- ``In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.``
(Why wait for the pansy allies, even if you`ll need their help after?)
7) -- ``I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.``
(Yes. Al Qaeda is recrudescing. In Afghanistan, the Taliban is coming back, warlords rule and the vice and virtue police are at it again.
Iran and North Korea are defying us.
Saddam is still lurking, even as we struggle in Iraq to get the lights on, the oil industry up and the violence down.
We say everything is O.K. while the senators who went to Iraq last week say we`re stretched thin in the face of more and more attacks by Saddam loyalists.
Yep. These guys definitely have E.A.D.D. — Empire Attention Deficit Disorder.
(NYT)
Besides Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria North Korea Cuba -- yesterday it was Turkey`s Turn -- and today we are going to Liberia --
what this Trashy Tongue Twit from Tree Hopping Tarzana Texas is up to -- hopping from tree to tree around the world -- picking street fights with everybody --
who the hell he thinks will pay for all this -- his dad?
Folks this MORON has to go in Nov 2004 -- moral bankruptcy we can live with -- but financial bankruptcy? -- no way --
the stupido has to go –
so folks -- in 2004 PLEASE don’t forget to VOTE -- don`t forget to get this monkey off our back -- AND -- our wallet
#41 Posted by rsridhar on July 5, 2003 10:07:05 pm
re: America`s affluence
Sometimes ignorance is bliss. So we hear someone in Chowk say:
``The quickest way to make money, increase production etc. is to take it from others thru force. I think the USA still has the power to do that. And it has been doing that, openly, since WWII.``
Living in USA, i find the above statement very offensive. Let the idiot who wrote the above statement give us proof.
Of course, history has been kind to US. But much of America`s prosperity has to do with unleashing private enterprise. It is just not easy for many governments and people (especially those used to dictators ruling their nations) to imagine that a faceless single individual could be so important in creating wealth. While World War 1 brought sudden increase in productivity, industrial growth etc for the nation, US linked its fate to free market even during the most difficult times as during the Great Depression. It is hard to imagine but true that during that period, some 100,000 Americans for the first (and perhaps the last) time migrated to Soviet Union for work. Soviet Union at the time was being touted as a successful model and the eg was even more glaring during the Depression. But USA did ride out of that bad phase and continued with ``free market``. Advent of motor car (with Ford being a household name) unleashed another era of prosperity coupled with increasing mobility. Of course all was not hunky dory. With increasing mobility came disruption in family life, change in moral values and so on. But we are talking about material wealth here.
While one can keep debating on the nature economic policies that lead to gradual prosperity of USA, one thing cannot be debated: the important role of immigrant population towards economic prosperity. What started as a slave labor for plantation workers in 18th century USA soon gave rise to first wave of immigrants from much of Europe. There were millions of them and yet they did not create any large scale social upheavel. Here again, the concept of free will and freedom of movement of labor helped. People migrated to areas with jobs and created prosperity. In the words of an economist:
``Immigrants supplied the labor that a growing economy urgently demanded. What is more, economic growth allowed the accommodation of newcomers without forcing thorny questions of redistribution -- always the occasion for social contest and upheaval. Here, as so often in American history, especially during the period of heavy immigration before the First World War, economic growth worked as a pre-emptive solution to potential social conflict.``
The INS amendment of 1965 opened the doors to Asian countries. Much of immigration in the last several decades has happened from Asia (Phillipines, China, India etc). But most of the recent immigrants are skilled except perhaps the large wave of semi-skilled and unskilled labor force pouring in from Mexico. All of these have contributed to USA`s economy. America still needs a large number of immigrant population for economic growth.
USA is today not only the sole superpower but also an economic power. http://www.dallasfed.org/htm/pubs/annual/arpt01c.html
``Americans make up just 5 percent of the world’s population, but our $10 trillion economy accounts for a quarter of global output. We own, consume and make more of nearly everything—from cars and houses to movies and sports events. We’re among the world’s leaders in just about every cutting-edge technology. We’re the world’s greatest trading nation—the biggest importer and the top exporter.
U.S. industrial production is six times larger than in 1950. Total output has expanded more than fivefold. So has the capital stock—a measure of the economy’s capacity to produce goods and services``
Some people in this forum have been suggesting that US would somehow start to disintegrate after Iraq war. This is stupid.
``Annual defense spending per capita during World War II was an inflation-adjusted $3,381—or 29 percent of the nation’s total production. Today, each American’s share of the defense budget comes to $1,050, just 3 percent of our total output.``
``Throughout history, world powers have fallen because their economy couldn’t support their military. The latest, of course, was the Soviet Union, whose inefficient socialist economy couldn’t keep pace with the Cold War spending of the United States.``
(same url as above)
So, USA will continue to lead the way. There is much to celebrate about USA. But 2 things that comes instantly to mind are the freedom one enjoys here and the unbridled prosperity that an average American enjoys. If you do not believe me, read Dilip D`Souza`s column on What is good about America and you will understand why this is still the most favorite destination for new immigrants.
Sridhar
Sometimes ignorance is bliss. So we hear someone in Chowk say:
``The quickest way to make money, increase production etc. is to take it from others thru force. I think the USA still has the power to do that. And it has been doing that, openly, since WWII.``
Living in USA, i find the above statement very offensive. Let the idiot who wrote the above statement give us proof.
Of course, history has been kind to US. But much of America`s prosperity has to do with unleashing private enterprise. It is just not easy for many governments and people (especially those used to dictators ruling their nations) to imagine that a faceless single individual could be so important in creating wealth. While World War 1 brought sudden increase in productivity, industrial growth etc for the nation, US linked its fate to free market even during the most difficult times as during the Great Depression. It is hard to imagine but true that during that period, some 100,000 Americans for the first (and perhaps the last) time migrated to Soviet Union for work. Soviet Union at the time was being touted as a successful model and the eg was even more glaring during the Depression. But USA did ride out of that bad phase and continued with ``free market``. Advent of motor car (with Ford being a household name) unleashed another era of prosperity coupled with increasing mobility. Of course all was not hunky dory. With increasing mobility came disruption in family life, change in moral values and so on. But we are talking about material wealth here.
While one can keep debating on the nature economic policies that lead to gradual prosperity of USA, one thing cannot be debated: the important role of immigrant population towards economic prosperity. What started as a slave labor for plantation workers in 18th century USA soon gave rise to first wave of immigrants from much of Europe. There were millions of them and yet they did not create any large scale social upheavel. Here again, the concept of free will and freedom of movement of labor helped. People migrated to areas with jobs and created prosperity. In the words of an economist:
``Immigrants supplied the labor that a growing economy urgently demanded. What is more, economic growth allowed the accommodation of newcomers without forcing thorny questions of redistribution -- always the occasion for social contest and upheaval. Here, as so often in American history, especially during the period of heavy immigration before the First World War, economic growth worked as a pre-emptive solution to potential social conflict.``
The INS amendment of 1965 opened the doors to Asian countries. Much of immigration in the last several decades has happened from Asia (Phillipines, China, India etc). But most of the recent immigrants are skilled except perhaps the large wave of semi-skilled and unskilled labor force pouring in from Mexico. All of these have contributed to USA`s economy. America still needs a large number of immigrant population for economic growth.
USA is today not only the sole superpower but also an economic power. http://www.dallasfed.org/htm/pubs/annual/arpt01c.html
``Americans make up just 5 percent of the world’s population, but our $10 trillion economy accounts for a quarter of global output. We own, consume and make more of nearly everything—from cars and houses to movies and sports events. We’re among the world’s leaders in just about every cutting-edge technology. We’re the world’s greatest trading nation—the biggest importer and the top exporter.
U.S. industrial production is six times larger than in 1950. Total output has expanded more than fivefold. So has the capital stock—a measure of the economy’s capacity to produce goods and services``
Some people in this forum have been suggesting that US would somehow start to disintegrate after Iraq war. This is stupid.
``Annual defense spending per capita during World War II was an inflation-adjusted $3,381—or 29 percent of the nation’s total production. Today, each American’s share of the defense budget comes to $1,050, just 3 percent of our total output.``
``Throughout history, world powers have fallen because their economy couldn’t support their military. The latest, of course, was the Soviet Union, whose inefficient socialist economy couldn’t keep pace with the Cold War spending of the United States.``
(same url as above)
So, USA will continue to lead the way. There is much to celebrate about USA. But 2 things that comes instantly to mind are the freedom one enjoys here and the unbridled prosperity that an average American enjoys. If you do not believe me, read Dilip D`Souza`s column on What is good about America and you will understand why this is still the most favorite destination for new immigrants.
Sridhar
#40 Posted by Maharana on July 5, 2003 5:03:11 pm
SR # 37,
My own observation of the in international trading practices and ``free trade`` are in line with what you have written. But without a person with financial background or knowledge substantiating it, I would not have taken them seriously enough. Thanks!
``… sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in.``
Further in the same vein...
``But life shows her irony, through islamists doing the same, with contrary results``.
I`d deliberately refrained from writing this additional statement for fear of dragging this thread to a Hindu-Muslim mudslinging.
But I hope you`ll try to understand this from a different perspective now.
Adios
My own observation of the in international trading practices and ``free trade`` are in line with what you have written. But without a person with financial background or knowledge substantiating it, I would not have taken them seriously enough. Thanks!
``… sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in.``
Further in the same vein...
``But life shows her irony, through islamists doing the same, with contrary results``.
I`d deliberately refrained from writing this additional statement for fear of dragging this thread to a Hindu-Muslim mudslinging.
But I hope you`ll try to understand this from a different perspective now.
Adios
#39 Posted by tahmed32 on July 5, 2003 1:20:56 pm
Romair #38 The US also has started cracking down on illegal immigrants and send them packing. They dont even spare ex-pakistan armymen, who are exempt from the indignity of following laws and rules like - imagine! - ordinary people. And you had to learn this the hard way...very bad. very very bad, this lack of respect for army officers.
#38 Posted by Romair on July 5, 2003 10:55:31 am
SR: Thanks for the replies, again.
I must admit this has been a most enlightening thread. You have provided a lot of interesting information on how economics relates to international affairs and politics. Would you happen to have the background of doing an analysis of Pakistan`s economy, without any political/democratic biases, its present and future, in comparison to where it was three years ago (not in comparison to the rest of the world). Most analysts I have read, seem to have too much of political baggage to do an objective analysis. The anti-Martial Law brigade never sees anything right. While the pro sees everything right.
On the issue of military or economics deciding superpower status, I think I need to clarify furthur. I agree with you that economics is a primary factor in being a superpower. However, I don`t think it is the only factor. There seems to be a cycle that true superpowers follow:
- They get internally successful and grow strong economically. The standard of living of their population increases, and soon their internal resources become too limited to compensate for the growing standard of living demands of their citizens.
- They realize that they have to gain control of resources outside their borders, at cheap rates, to continue their growth. In the old days the superpowers would just invade other nations, outright, and colonize them directly (or kill them and take their land). However, now in the times of kindler gentler superpowers, they do so through support of autocratic rulers in other countries, who sell their nation`s resources at cheap rates to benefit themselves.
- However, every now and then, even now, the superpowers need to invade to ensure they don`t lose control of the international resources. Or at least they have to be able to threaten and invasion. To do this, they need gigantic militaries (specifically navies and now Air Forces also). This is a huge investment. However, the paybacks are much higher, due to control of resources. So they build giant miltiaries, way beyond what they need to their own defence.
- Their economies are strong enough to support these militaries, and it turns into a cycle, where their citizens` needs keep growing and they have to control more and more resources, and thus their militaries keep getting bigger.
Based on this, regardless of what happens internally (upto a certain limit), as long as they can invade successfully, then can compensate, to a great deal, for the shortcomings you mentioned. The moment they lose the ability to invade, regardless of how strong their economies are (Britain, Germany, France, etc.are good examples), they cease to be superpowers, because then they are forced to follow the normal rules of economics that everyone is living by, i.e. they cannot just forcefully take someone else`s stuff and have to build it themselves and compete.
USSR is an example of a country that tried to become a superpower, without first developing an strong internal economy. It had a huge military, but it was a fake superpower. And thus could not sustain its superpower-ness. The USA is a genuine superpower (economics + military). In fact, even with a large military, the Russian navy was never large and powerful enough to carry out the types of invasions, half way around the world, the USA can carry out. So USSR wasn`t even a true military superpower.
I think once a country has reached the combined economic + military superpower status, it enters into an unstoppable cycle, i.e more military invasions needed to meet internal demands, specially if the internal economic situation is getting weaker. The USA is caught in this circle now. I think it will continue to invade, more and more, and will continue to increase the size of its military. And I think for the near future, it can get away with it due to the terroist propoganda, as long as it doesn`t do it as bluntly as it did in Iraq.
This combined with the reasons you mentioend, is probably why Bush and Co. are out to invade eveyone and their grandmother.
I must admit this has been a most enlightening thread. You have provided a lot of interesting information on how economics relates to international affairs and politics. Would you happen to have the background of doing an analysis of Pakistan`s economy, without any political/democratic biases, its present and future, in comparison to where it was three years ago (not in comparison to the rest of the world). Most analysts I have read, seem to have too much of political baggage to do an objective analysis. The anti-Martial Law brigade never sees anything right. While the pro sees everything right.
On the issue of military or economics deciding superpower status, I think I need to clarify furthur. I agree with you that economics is a primary factor in being a superpower. However, I don`t think it is the only factor. There seems to be a cycle that true superpowers follow:
- They get internally successful and grow strong economically. The standard of living of their population increases, and soon their internal resources become too limited to compensate for the growing standard of living demands of their citizens.
- They realize that they have to gain control of resources outside their borders, at cheap rates, to continue their growth. In the old days the superpowers would just invade other nations, outright, and colonize them directly (or kill them and take their land). However, now in the times of kindler gentler superpowers, they do so through support of autocratic rulers in other countries, who sell their nation`s resources at cheap rates to benefit themselves.
- However, every now and then, even now, the superpowers need to invade to ensure they don`t lose control of the international resources. Or at least they have to be able to threaten and invasion. To do this, they need gigantic militaries (specifically navies and now Air Forces also). This is a huge investment. However, the paybacks are much higher, due to control of resources. So they build giant miltiaries, way beyond what they need to their own defence.
- Their economies are strong enough to support these militaries, and it turns into a cycle, where their citizens` needs keep growing and they have to control more and more resources, and thus their militaries keep getting bigger.
Based on this, regardless of what happens internally (upto a certain limit), as long as they can invade successfully, then can compensate, to a great deal, for the shortcomings you mentioned. The moment they lose the ability to invade, regardless of how strong their economies are (Britain, Germany, France, etc.are good examples), they cease to be superpowers, because then they are forced to follow the normal rules of economics that everyone is living by, i.e. they cannot just forcefully take someone else`s stuff and have to build it themselves and compete.
USSR is an example of a country that tried to become a superpower, without first developing an strong internal economy. It had a huge military, but it was a fake superpower. And thus could not sustain its superpower-ness. The USA is a genuine superpower (economics + military). In fact, even with a large military, the Russian navy was never large and powerful enough to carry out the types of invasions, half way around the world, the USA can carry out. So USSR wasn`t even a true military superpower.
I think once a country has reached the combined economic + military superpower status, it enters into an unstoppable cycle, i.e more military invasions needed to meet internal demands, specially if the internal economic situation is getting weaker. The USA is caught in this circle now. I think it will continue to invade, more and more, and will continue to increase the size of its military. And I think for the near future, it can get away with it due to the terroist propoganda, as long as it doesn`t do it as bluntly as it did in Iraq.
This combined with the reasons you mentioend, is probably why Bush and Co. are out to invade eveyone and their grandmother.
#37 Posted by SR on July 4, 2003 9:58:03 pm
#25 Maharana [“… (are) the nations in business with US … getting appropriate values for their goods/service? Who decides those values? Is it just the market?
Why … puppet regimes are installed …? Is it not for exploiting their natural resources…? “]
No, there is no such thing as universally acceptable “fair value” when it comes to trade under the International Dollar Standard system.
The global currency exchange rate system is an absolute scam. (I know the bankers in this forum will be after my hide teaching me the basics of finance, but it has to be pointed out.) What it does is to assign different weight to different populations (pools of labor) that live within certain restricted national boundaries that are completely unnatural. The absurdness, artificiality and injustice of this system of global imbalance can be illustrated by taking two twin brothers from a developing country, say, Sri Lanka. Both go to the same university (medical or engineering, or law etc) and both graduate with the same qualification. One of them moves to America the other stays in Columbo. Now, does it sound reasonable that the services of the one are worth five times the other in terms of internal purchasing power?
Capital today moves at the speed of light. At night when you are asleep in the US your money is in Japan, and so on.
Similarly, “goods and services” also move about the world relatively free of barriers and they move at the speed of an airplane or a ship and in some cases even at the speed of light.
The rules change, however, when it comes to the other ingredient of the production process: labor. Labor is very distinctly divided up and kept within separate jurisdictions and it’s movement strictly controlled by laws and police enforcement.
The implications of this stratification are far reaching. This system disproportionately benefits the multi-national mega-corporations. It does not even so much work to the advantage of the average US or European worker except in the short run.
This situation is only made much worse by the monetary system we have in place today where the country that has the universally accepted currency can essentially get a free ride at the expense of the others. This is what I tried to point out in the article: “For three decades now they have been willing to trade their materials, their sweat equity, and their living standards in exchange for paper that America prints at essentially no cost. How long will they keep playing this game is anybody’s guess?”
This is a very pivotal issue that most people don’t ever even think of. This is major corner stone of today’s global economic imbalance.
ALSO #31 Maharana
[ …``As long as America remains true to the American Constitution… Jeffersonian spirit …``
Ah, the famous Jefersonian spirit. So many of us have been taken in by that.
… the meaning of equality, liberty, justice of mankind … applicable only to the WHITE RACE.
But such is the power of propaganda and garbled history by ideologues, that it took me a while to digest the uncomfortable truth.
… sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in. …”]
Don’t be too hard on poor old Massa Tom. He was a product of his time after all. Let me add to your list further. Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Bill of Rights, was also the first one ever, as president, to suspend the habius corpus in the case of his personal political rival whom he had arrested by the army and then charged with high treason. I am, of course, referring to the case of Colonel Aaron Burr, a hero of the Revolutionary War who contested against Jefferson for the presidency and lost by ONE VOTE on the THIRD TALLY (after two ties) in Congress (The Congress then, was the Electoral College). Jefferson was also pompous and arrogant. He owned several slaves and even had at least one daughter from a slave girl. He was the first president to attack a Middle Eastern country when in 1801 he sent the US Navy to go and bomb the hell out of Tripoli harbor, 183 years before Ronal Reagan bombed Qaddaffi, and so on and so forth. But in spite of all that I hold Jefferson in high esteem because of what he has left behind.
In this particular instance I would entirely agree with your concluding statement: “…sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in…”
#27 tahmed [“…real estate is overvalued worldwide, but far more … in UK and Europe than in the …Given the great leverage one gets … I would think real estate should be the place to invest…”]
The best thing one can say about real estate is that even if its price goes to hell, you can at least live in a house, where as with stocks or bonds gone worthless you cannot even wipe your poop off – they are printed on glazed paper. It is sobering to note that real estate price in Tokyo, for instance, have gone down for nine years in a row and are presently about 70% below where they were at the peak of the bubble in 1989-90. So if you bought something for a hundred then, it would fetch thirty on the market today. The poor bastard who borrowed 90 of the original 100 is now holding something that is worth 30 and the remaining balance on his loan is probably still 80. So, there is no such thing as a “risk-free return” never mind what the bankers tell you about US Treasuries.
#28 Romair
(a) Do you think US invasions and targets are specifically based on the use of Euro by the Iraqis and Iranis?
(b) the defining line for an economic superpower is its ability to invade other countries… The moment a country has lost this ability, it has ceased to be an economic superpower…
(c) If the British still controlled India, and their other territories, they would still be an economic superpower to rival the USA.
The British left India when they knew they did not have the power any longer to invade India successfully and quelch forcefully any kind of independence movement. That is when they ceased to be a superpower
(d) The quickest way to make money, increase production etc. is to take it from others thru force. I think the USA still has the power to do that. And it has been doing that, openly, since WWII.
The US needs to do the above to maintain its superpower status. As long as it can successfully do so, it will be able to compensate for any internal economic shortcomings…”]
(a) Saving the dollar based system, in my view, has to be a factor in that whole calculus. It will probably buy an extra decade. But that’s a lot. Hadrian built a wall in northern England to keep the barbarians of Scotland at bay and that extended Roman rule of Brittania for another century. So, it is sometimes useful to take measure that you know will lead to trouble in the long run because short term advantages are immediate and substantial.
(b) I beg to differ. What you are saying is that the basic power to possess is the military power and that yields political power which in turn yield economic power. That is a view held by many, but I so not subscribe to that view. To my way of thinking, economic power is the foundation stone. It’s the back bone. Only an economically powerful entity can project political and military power. Military might, of course, being nothing more than “politics through other means,” as Karl von Clausewitz would say.
(c) Again, I would prefer to re-phrase the statement and instead say: “if the British were still an economic superpower, they would then have the means to still control their colonies.”
There are those who believe as you do. It may be a chicken and egg kind of an issue, but that is not how I see it. By the way, Winston Churchill also believed as you do. He opposed the Atlee government’s move to quit India on exactly these grounds that it will reduce Britain to the status of a second rate power. Frankly, I don’t think he understood economics at all.
(d) The US is able to do what it does not because of the Seventh Fleet, but because of the BLIND FAITH that fools around the world have in the (intrinsically worthless) ALMIGHTY DOLLAR.
…SR
Why … puppet regimes are installed …? Is it not for exploiting their natural resources…? “]
No, there is no such thing as universally acceptable “fair value” when it comes to trade under the International Dollar Standard system.
The global currency exchange rate system is an absolute scam. (I know the bankers in this forum will be after my hide teaching me the basics of finance, but it has to be pointed out.) What it does is to assign different weight to different populations (pools of labor) that live within certain restricted national boundaries that are completely unnatural. The absurdness, artificiality and injustice of this system of global imbalance can be illustrated by taking two twin brothers from a developing country, say, Sri Lanka. Both go to the same university (medical or engineering, or law etc) and both graduate with the same qualification. One of them moves to America the other stays in Columbo. Now, does it sound reasonable that the services of the one are worth five times the other in terms of internal purchasing power?
Capital today moves at the speed of light. At night when you are asleep in the US your money is in Japan, and so on.
Similarly, “goods and services” also move about the world relatively free of barriers and they move at the speed of an airplane or a ship and in some cases even at the speed of light.
The rules change, however, when it comes to the other ingredient of the production process: labor. Labor is very distinctly divided up and kept within separate jurisdictions and it’s movement strictly controlled by laws and police enforcement.
The implications of this stratification are far reaching. This system disproportionately benefits the multi-national mega-corporations. It does not even so much work to the advantage of the average US or European worker except in the short run.
This situation is only made much worse by the monetary system we have in place today where the country that has the universally accepted currency can essentially get a free ride at the expense of the others. This is what I tried to point out in the article: “For three decades now they have been willing to trade their materials, their sweat equity, and their living standards in exchange for paper that America prints at essentially no cost. How long will they keep playing this game is anybody’s guess?”
This is a very pivotal issue that most people don’t ever even think of. This is major corner stone of today’s global economic imbalance.
ALSO #31 Maharana
[ …``As long as America remains true to the American Constitution… Jeffersonian spirit …``
Ah, the famous Jefersonian spirit. So many of us have been taken in by that.
… the meaning of equality, liberty, justice of mankind … applicable only to the WHITE RACE.
But such is the power of propaganda and garbled history by ideologues, that it took me a while to digest the uncomfortable truth.
… sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in. …”]
Don’t be too hard on poor old Massa Tom. He was a product of his time after all. Let me add to your list further. Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Bill of Rights, was also the first one ever, as president, to suspend the habius corpus in the case of his personal political rival whom he had arrested by the army and then charged with high treason. I am, of course, referring to the case of Colonel Aaron Burr, a hero of the Revolutionary War who contested against Jefferson for the presidency and lost by ONE VOTE on the THIRD TALLY (after two ties) in Congress (The Congress then, was the Electoral College). Jefferson was also pompous and arrogant. He owned several slaves and even had at least one daughter from a slave girl. He was the first president to attack a Middle Eastern country when in 1801 he sent the US Navy to go and bomb the hell out of Tripoli harbor, 183 years before Ronal Reagan bombed Qaddaffi, and so on and so forth. But in spite of all that I hold Jefferson in high esteem because of what he has left behind.
In this particular instance I would entirely agree with your concluding statement: “…sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in…”
#27 tahmed [“…real estate is overvalued worldwide, but far more … in UK and Europe than in the …Given the great leverage one gets … I would think real estate should be the place to invest…”]
The best thing one can say about real estate is that even if its price goes to hell, you can at least live in a house, where as with stocks or bonds gone worthless you cannot even wipe your poop off – they are printed on glazed paper. It is sobering to note that real estate price in Tokyo, for instance, have gone down for nine years in a row and are presently about 70% below where they were at the peak of the bubble in 1989-90. So if you bought something for a hundred then, it would fetch thirty on the market today. The poor bastard who borrowed 90 of the original 100 is now holding something that is worth 30 and the remaining balance on his loan is probably still 80. So, there is no such thing as a “risk-free return” never mind what the bankers tell you about US Treasuries.
#28 Romair
(a) Do you think US invasions and targets are specifically based on the use of Euro by the Iraqis and Iranis?
(b) the defining line for an economic superpower is its ability to invade other countries… The moment a country has lost this ability, it has ceased to be an economic superpower…
(c) If the British still controlled India, and their other territories, they would still be an economic superpower to rival the USA.
The British left India when they knew they did not have the power any longer to invade India successfully and quelch forcefully any kind of independence movement. That is when they ceased to be a superpower
(d) The quickest way to make money, increase production etc. is to take it from others thru force. I think the USA still has the power to do that. And it has been doing that, openly, since WWII.
The US needs to do the above to maintain its superpower status. As long as it can successfully do so, it will be able to compensate for any internal economic shortcomings…”]
(a) Saving the dollar based system, in my view, has to be a factor in that whole calculus. It will probably buy an extra decade. But that’s a lot. Hadrian built a wall in northern England to keep the barbarians of Scotland at bay and that extended Roman rule of Brittania for another century. So, it is sometimes useful to take measure that you know will lead to trouble in the long run because short term advantages are immediate and substantial.
(b) I beg to differ. What you are saying is that the basic power to possess is the military power and that yields political power which in turn yield economic power. That is a view held by many, but I so not subscribe to that view. To my way of thinking, economic power is the foundation stone. It’s the back bone. Only an economically powerful entity can project political and military power. Military might, of course, being nothing more than “politics through other means,” as Karl von Clausewitz would say.
(c) Again, I would prefer to re-phrase the statement and instead say: “if the British were still an economic superpower, they would then have the means to still control their colonies.”
There are those who believe as you do. It may be a chicken and egg kind of an issue, but that is not how I see it. By the way, Winston Churchill also believed as you do. He opposed the Atlee government’s move to quit India on exactly these grounds that it will reduce Britain to the status of a second rate power. Frankly, I don’t think he understood economics at all.
(d) The US is able to do what it does not because of the Seventh Fleet, but because of the BLIND FAITH that fools around the world have in the (intrinsically worthless) ALMIGHTY DOLLAR.
…SR
#35 Posted by SR on July 4, 2003 7:19:23 am
The Chowk Staff has implimented a `new and improved` InterAct window that somehow DOES NOT allow messages longer than a certain length. My combined message for all was over the size so it does not show. I`ll try to post it in smaller chunks now...
#33 Posted by faisaluno on July 3, 2003 9:00:07 pm
political side of the ledger is not looking too good either as norman mailer points out in this critique. and strangely enough he also blames one particular ethnic group:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16470
``And there were other factors for using our military skills, minor but significant: these reasons return us to the ongoing malaise of the white American male. He had been taking a daily drubbing over the last thirty years.``
all is not lost however. yesterday, a federal judge ordered the release of four people who were arrested last week for having ties to kashmiri terrorist groups. and this is what makes america great. that it has enough people in position of authority who are willing to act on their conscience even if it means going against popular opinion and against official state sponsored ideology. compare this with what goes on in pak. the most powerful man in pak, i.e. president musharraf does not have the balls to speak against blasphemy law even though he knows that law is morally wrong. and he is not the only one. our idiot judges are busy hauling cricketers into court for appearing in indian commercials rather than righting numerous evil acts committed by state machinery on a daily basis.
coming back to the u.s. i dont think future is rosy by any means given the cowardliness displayed by royal opposition and the media. determining future direction of the country is going to be a good old fashioned gunfight..
#32 Posted by tahmed32 on July 3, 2003 6:45:46 pm
godot #30 on spanish: the irony is that 90% of the spanish speaking immigrants to the US are partially or fully descendent from american indians and some blacks. spanish was forced on the local population through draconian means by spanish invaders who wiped out millions of indians, and even today there are indian reservations in mexico (i visited one of these a few years ago) where they do not speak spanish at all. interestingly, even the latinos themselves realize that their future rests with english, and most second generation latinos are no more latinos but plain english speaking.
the US was indeed a great experiment in the 18th century - the american revolution represented the first time that the globally accepted institution of kingship was challenged and overthrown. i think a quiet but perhaps even more significant experiment is currently taking place in the US: people maturing beyond their traditional nationalistic identities and seeing themselves as first and foremost as part of a broader human race. whether this experiment works of does not remains to be seen i think. it will work if people understand and accept the values that made the US the leader in human progress. it will fail if they dont. my feeling is that the first generation of immigrants generally doesnt get it. the hope then lies with the second generation, with the public schools representing a great source of imparting these values.
So Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. And the future of the human race may well rest in the playing fields of your neighboring elementary school.
the US was indeed a great experiment in the 18th century - the american revolution represented the first time that the globally accepted institution of kingship was challenged and overthrown. i think a quiet but perhaps even more significant experiment is currently taking place in the US: people maturing beyond their traditional nationalistic identities and seeing themselves as first and foremost as part of a broader human race. whether this experiment works of does not remains to be seen i think. it will work if people understand and accept the values that made the US the leader in human progress. it will fail if they dont. my feeling is that the first generation of immigrants generally doesnt get it. the hope then lies with the second generation, with the public schools representing a great source of imparting these values.
So Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. And the future of the human race may well rest in the playing fields of your neighboring elementary school.
#31 Posted by Maharana on July 3, 2003 12:45:04 pm
Inquirer, SR,
``As long as America remains true to the American Constitution… Jeffersonian spirit …"
Ah, the famous Jefersonian spirit. So many of us have been taken in by that.
Just happens that, there is a book authored by the same Jefferson titled ``Virginia`` (If i remember its title correctly). And that book lays out in very clear and certain terms the meaning of equality, liberty, justice of mankind to mean these concepts to be applicable only to the WHITE RACE.
It came as a shock to me as well, when i read it first. But such is the power of propaganda and garbled history by ideologues, that it took me a while to digest the uncomfortable truth. Ofcourse today American constitution is the greatest in the world with no mention of the spirit of the authors who wrote it.
Hmmmm.. sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in.
Adios
``As long as America remains true to the American Constitution… Jeffersonian spirit …"
Ah, the famous Jefersonian spirit. So many of us have been taken in by that.
Just happens that, there is a book authored by the same Jefferson titled ``Virginia`` (If i remember its title correctly). And that book lays out in very clear and certain terms the meaning of equality, liberty, justice of mankind to mean these concepts to be applicable only to the WHITE RACE.
It came as a shock to me as well, when i read it first. But such is the power of propaganda and garbled history by ideologues, that it took me a while to digest the uncomfortable truth. Ofcourse today American constitution is the greatest in the world with no mention of the spirit of the authors who wrote it.
Hmmmm.. sometimes it is good to follow the written word without paying attention to the spirit it was written in.
Adios
#30 Posted by SR on July 3, 2003 12:10:12 pm
#16 veeresh [“… Empire or illusion, they seem to be having great fun while they are at it.
Which is more than what can be said for other parts of the world…”]
And they will CONTINUE to have more fun and the ‘other parts of the world’ will continue to be poor as long as this religious faith in the pieces of paper (that America can print in unlimited quantities as and when it wishes) stays strong. That is why this (worship of the Almighty Dollar) is the most powerful religion the world has ever seen. Ultimately, it all boils down to BLIND FAITH.
#18 Inquirer [“… As long as America remains true to the American Constitution… Jeffersonian spirit … and retains a sense of fiscal responsibility… it will be an ascendant nation. …”]
True, very true. But the “AS LONG AS” has become an “IF” and that is a very big IF… As time passes America becomes less and less true to the Jeffersonian spirit and forgets about fiscal responsibility. The US Constitution SPECIFICALLY says that CONGRESS (and not a cartel of private banks, such as the Fed) shall have the power to issue money. It also defined the dollar in terms of weight in gold and silver. It also gives congress the power to declare war. There were good reasons why those wise old men put down those things in the constitution. But today’s America has gone away from the constitution in many ways. And THAT, my dear friend, is why America is faltering. The political establishment is so corrupt and rotten to the core and the government so big and over bloated that it is a wonder America is still doing as well as it is – but for how much longer? This is a testimony to the greatness of the spirit of enterprise that despite such odds the nation is still not down on its knees.
The weight of government is back-breaking. For every single working man, woman and child who earns a wage in America and gets a W-2, the burden of government is $10.76 per hour. That is per HOUR, per WORKER assuming they all work 52 weeks a year and 40 hours every week. No other economy could have survived such a burden, and if things don’t change and change fast, neither will the American economy.
#19 soundmeister [“… Chill dude--Amreeka still rich---we still poor--- that`s the bottomline! :)) …”]
Thanks for your comments. I’ll try to chill as you say, but just because I am paranoid it doesn’t mean that they are not really out to get us all? :)
#22 nazarhayatkhan [“…It was all going great for US. … the decay of all great powers began when they reached … this stage of power and culture...”]
Happens to all Great Powers and America is no exception to history. Great Britian started losing its financial might, slowly but surely, almost 30 years prior to the start of the First World War. It wasn’t until after the Second WW that it became obvious to the world that the party was over for the British. Turkey was the “sick man of Europe” for a long time before it every became obvious. The Spanish Empire became a net debtor and lost its economic might almost half a century before the Armada invaded Britain. Roman treasury was going bankrupt during the Julio-Caludian dynasty when no one could have guessed that Rome’s heydays are over. America can be no different.
#23 einsteinwallah
[“…The world may not think so yet, but America may be getting ready to depart.
(i) Departing to where? Planet Mars?
(ii) Indian currency notes … have a promise … ``I promise to pay the bearer the sum of x rupees``. I wonder what these promises mean…”]
(i) No not to Mars, but to your backyard… It’s a figure of speech dude… as I’m sure you well know. Or are you just interested in playing semantics?
(ii) I cannot say about India, but in the US there was a very specific definition of what was meant by the world “Dollar”. It certainly wasn’t just a worthless piece of paper that you could run on a printing press. The “note” was a substitute for the intrinsic value. The note thus was a liability of the issuer. (please refer to: Monetary History of the United States by Milton Friedman, Anna Jacobson Schwartz)
#24 sac
[“… (i) If one were to use debtor/creditor nation criterion, everyone would be buying yen and yuan. Yet there is still a capital flow towards the US.
(ii) Its a charade… but I am content to bury my head in the sand and put my faith in the ingenuity and inventiveness of the human race…”]
(i) Yes there is still flow into the US. Most of the left over flow is owning to the current account deficit and not additional direct investment. The Bank of International Settlements has just issued its annual report. The picture even they (who are establishment touts) paint a picture that is not very pretty.
The US is like a massive supertanker that can not be turned on a dime as a speed boat can be turned. It takes a long time before it becomes clear that a turn is underway.
(ii) We can all pretend to ‘see’ the emperor’s clothes with the eye of faith or we can shout out loud that he is butt naked. But I do understand and admire your optimism. It is important to have optimists, they are essential to human progress because they invent things like the airplane. But don’t write off the pessimist (or realist, as the case may be) either, it is he who invents the parachute.
It`s time to go perform domestic duties now. The rest for later...
…SR
Which is more than what can be said for other parts of the world…”]
And they will CONTINUE to have more fun and the ‘other parts of the world’ will continue to be poor as long as this religious faith in the pieces of paper (that America can print in unlimited quantities as and when it wishes) stays strong. That is why this (worship of the Almighty Dollar) is the most powerful religion the world has ever seen. Ultimately, it all boils down to BLIND FAITH.
#18 Inquirer [“… As long as America remains true to the American Constitution… Jeffersonian spirit … and retains a sense of fiscal responsibility… it will be an ascendant nation. …”]
True, very true. But the “AS LONG AS” has become an “IF” and that is a very big IF… As time passes America becomes less and less true to the Jeffersonian spirit and forgets about fiscal responsibility. The US Constitution SPECIFICALLY says that CONGRESS (and not a cartel of private banks, such as the Fed) shall have the power to issue money. It also defined the dollar in terms of weight in gold and silver. It also gives congress the power to declare war. There were good reasons why those wise old men put down those things in the constitution. But today’s America has gone away from the constitution in many ways. And THAT, my dear friend, is why America is faltering. The political establishment is so corrupt and rotten to the core and the government so big and over bloated that it is a wonder America is still doing as well as it is – but for how much longer? This is a testimony to the greatness of the spirit of enterprise that despite such odds the nation is still not down on its knees.
The weight of government is back-breaking. For every single working man, woman and child who earns a wage in America and gets a W-2, the burden of government is $10.76 per hour. That is per HOUR, per WORKER assuming they all work 52 weeks a year and 40 hours every week. No other economy could have survived such a burden, and if things don’t change and change fast, neither will the American economy.
#19 soundmeister [“… Chill dude--Amreeka still rich---we still poor--- that`s the bottomline! :)) …”]
Thanks for your comments. I’ll try to chill as you say, but just because I am paranoid it doesn’t mean that they are not really out to get us all? :)
#22 nazarhayatkhan [“…It was all going great for US. … the decay of all great powers began when they reached … this stage of power and culture...”]
Happens to all Great Powers and America is no exception to history. Great Britian started losing its financial might, slowly but surely, almost 30 years prior to the start of the First World War. It wasn’t until after the Second WW that it became obvious to the world that the party was over for the British. Turkey was the “sick man of Europe” for a long time before it every became obvious. The Spanish Empire became a net debtor and lost its economic might almost half a century before the Armada invaded Britain. Roman treasury was going bankrupt during the Julio-Caludian dynasty when no one could have guessed that Rome’s heydays are over. America can be no different.
#23 einsteinwallah
[“…The world may not think so yet, but America may be getting ready to depart.
(i) Departing to where? Planet Mars?
(ii) Indian currency notes … have a promise … ``I promise to pay the bearer the sum of x rupees``. I wonder what these promises mean…”]
(i) No not to Mars, but to your backyard… It’s a figure of speech dude… as I’m sure you well know. Or are you just interested in playing semantics?
(ii) I cannot say about India, but in the US there was a very specific definition of what was meant by the world “Dollar”. It certainly wasn’t just a worthless piece of paper that you could run on a printing press. The “note” was a substitute for the intrinsic value. The note thus was a liability of the issuer. (please refer to: Monetary History of the United States by Milton Friedman, Anna Jacobson Schwartz)
#24 sac
[“… (i) If one were to use debtor/creditor nation criterion, everyone would be buying yen and yuan. Yet there is still a capital flow towards the US.
(ii) Its a charade… but I am content to bury my head in the sand and put my faith in the ingenuity and inventiveness of the human race…”]
(i) Yes there is still flow into the US. Most of the left over flow is owning to the current account deficit and not additional direct investment. The Bank of International Settlements has just issued its annual report. The picture even they (who are establishment touts) paint a picture that is not very pretty.
The US is like a massive supertanker that can not be turned on a dime as a speed boat can be turned. It takes a long time before it becomes clear that a turn is underway.
(ii) We can all pretend to ‘see’ the emperor’s clothes with the eye of faith or we can shout out loud that he is butt naked. But I do understand and admire your optimism. It is important to have optimists, they are essential to human progress because they invent things like the airplane. But don’t write off the pessimist (or realist, as the case may be) either, it is he who invents the parachute.
It`s time to go perform domestic duties now. The rest for later...
…SR
#29 Posted by Godot on July 3, 2003 12:10:12 pm
Re: Sameer, #8
Sameer,
Peter Drucker, Business Guru/Philosopher, expressed the fear of White population decline in an interview in Harvard Business Review a few years ago as a catastrophe for the White race and, perhaps more subtly, for the world.
I also fear the Balkanization of the United States due to large minority groups with rigid value-systems and cultures that do not integrate. Balkanization is the reason I am dead-set against introducing Spanish as a “second” language in the US. This country speaks only English and shall remain so. Language is very divisive, especially in heterogeneous societies, but at the same time it bridges the gap between two people if they speak the same language. In the US, everyone MUST learn how to read, write, and speak English. Learning all other languages should remain a personal choice.
However, I also believe that the US is a different country. There has been nothing like it in the world history. It is still the most wonderful experiment humans have ever conducted. The mechanism and resilience of its economy, and its general tolerance towards others who are different leads me to believe that the non-white groups, born and bread in the US, would see how good a secular system works that protects all equally and the stability and prosperity it subsequently brings to all. I am very optimistic about the US. Looking around the world, I don’t have much of a choice.
Sameer,
Peter Drucker, Business Guru/Philosopher, expressed the fear of White population decline in an interview in Harvard Business Review a few years ago as a catastrophe for the White race and, perhaps more subtly, for the world.
I also fear the Balkanization of the United States due to large minority groups with rigid value-systems and cultures that do not integrate. Balkanization is the reason I am dead-set against introducing Spanish as a “second” language in the US. This country speaks only English and shall remain so. Language is very divisive, especially in heterogeneous societies, but at the same time it bridges the gap between two people if they speak the same language. In the US, everyone MUST learn how to read, write, and speak English. Learning all other languages should remain a personal choice.
However, I also believe that the US is a different country. There has been nothing like it in the world history. It is still the most wonderful experiment humans have ever conducted. The mechanism and resilience of its economy, and its general tolerance towards others who are different leads me to believe that the non-white groups, born and bread in the US, would see how good a secular system works that protects all equally and the stability and prosperity it subsequently brings to all. I am very optimistic about the US. Looking around the world, I don’t have much of a choice.
#28 Posted by Romair on July 3, 2003 10:08:55 am
Stuka #17: Thanks for the info.
SR: Thanks for the reply.
Some more questions:
- Do you think US invasions and targets are specifically based on the use of Euro by the Iraqis and Iranis?
- I would have to disagree with your comment about invading other countries and not sitting pretty.
I think the defining line for an economic superpower is its ability to invade other countries, openly or subtly, and control their resources, somehow or the other. This has been the natural reaction of all superpowers. They have just done it in different ways.
The Arab Muslims, from Umar`s caliphate onwards, expanded as fast as any empire in history. Their motivation was primarily, according to Armstrong, a desire to indulge in the common Arab tradition of raiding caravans to make money. They were growing so fast that they had to take these raids into other countries. In the process, the citizens of those countries became Muslims. And thus those areas were effectively colonized.
Other superpowers did so by invading and outright killing, and threatening. Much like Genghis Khan. Others did so by becoming a part of the society, but at an elite level, like the Mughals. Still others did it by controlling the trade of the country and its govt., without too much violence and internal interference, like the British in India. Still others do it through supporting autocratic govts., like the USA, and then invading outright when needed.
The key is the ability to invade, when things don`t go your way, in the directly or indirectly controlled colony. The moment a country has lost this ability, it has ceased to be an economic superpower, regardless of what is happening within its own society. The British, French and German economic systems internally are probably more efficient they ever were, yet they are no longer superpowers of any sort. Primarily, because they do not have the power to directly or indirectly colonize others, i.e. their military (specifically Navy) isn`t big enough to successfully invade, when required. If the British still controlled India, and their other territories, they would still be an economic superpower to rival the USA. And that would translate into them having a military to match the USA, also.
The British left India when they knew they did not have the power any longer to invade India successfully and quelch forcefully any kind of independence movement. That is when they ceased to be a superpower also, regardless of what was going on within their own country.
The quickest way to make money, increase production etc. is to take it from others thru force. I think the USA still has the power to do that. And it has been doing that, openly, since WWII. The only mistake it made in Iraq was to attempt to do so in a crude and unilateral manner, primarily since it under-estimated the opposition of the European citizens.
If what you have highlighted in your article is correct, then there is a lot of logic behind the US govts.` current actions in threatening the world. It needs to control international resources even more desparately, to make up for the shortage in its own production (as per your thesis). To do so, it needs an even larger military than it currently has, which is already $250-$300 billion larger than it currently needs to protect itself, in my opinion.
I think the USA will milk the terrorist threats for all it can, and continue to raise its military budget. The main aim will be to bring more and more international economic resources under its control, much like superpowers of history. I also think it can continue to do successfully, much to the loss of the other citizens of the world, provided it does so its traditional subtle manner, rather than its neo-con-advised open manner. All US Presidents have invaded other countries. They just have done it in a more intelligent and less blunt manner than W.
The US needs to do the above to maintain its superpower status. As long as it can sucessfully do so, it will be able to compensate for any internal economic shortcomings. Historically speaking, the moment superpowers lose their ability to colonize is the moment they cease to remain superpowers.
SR: Thanks for the reply.
Some more questions:
- Do you think US invasions and targets are specifically based on the use of Euro by the Iraqis and Iranis?
- I would have to disagree with your comment about invading other countries and not sitting pretty.
I think the defining line for an economic superpower is its ability to invade other countries, openly or subtly, and control their resources, somehow or the other. This has been the natural reaction of all superpowers. They have just done it in different ways.
The Arab Muslims, from Umar`s caliphate onwards, expanded as fast as any empire in history. Their motivation was primarily, according to Armstrong, a desire to indulge in the common Arab tradition of raiding caravans to make money. They were growing so fast that they had to take these raids into other countries. In the process, the citizens of those countries became Muslims. And thus those areas were effectively colonized.
Other superpowers did so by invading and outright killing, and threatening. Much like Genghis Khan. Others did so by becoming a part of the society, but at an elite level, like the Mughals. Still others did it by controlling the trade of the country and its govt., without too much violence and internal interference, like the British in India. Still others do it through supporting autocratic govts., like the USA, and then invading outright when needed.
The key is the ability to invade, when things don`t go your way, in the directly or indirectly controlled colony. The moment a country has lost this ability, it has ceased to be an economic superpower, regardless of what is happening within its own society. The British, French and German economic systems internally are probably more efficient they ever were, yet they are no longer superpowers of any sort. Primarily, because they do not have the power to directly or indirectly colonize others, i.e. their military (specifically Navy) isn`t big enough to successfully invade, when required. If the British still controlled India, and their other territories, they would still be an economic superpower to rival the USA. And that would translate into them having a military to match the USA, also.
The British left India when they knew they did not have the power any longer to invade India successfully and quelch forcefully any kind of independence movement. That is when they ceased to be a superpower also, regardless of what was going on within their own country.
The quickest way to make money, increase production etc. is to take it from others thru force. I think the USA still has the power to do that. And it has been doing that, openly, since WWII. The only mistake it made in Iraq was to attempt to do so in a crude and unilateral manner, primarily since it under-estimated the opposition of the European citizens.
If what you have highlighted in your article is correct, then there is a lot of logic behind the US govts.` current actions in threatening the world. It needs to control international resources even more desparately, to make up for the shortage in its own production (as per your thesis). To do so, it needs an even larger military than it currently has, which is already $250-$300 billion larger than it currently needs to protect itself, in my opinion.
I think the USA will milk the terrorist threats for all it can, and continue to raise its military budget. The main aim will be to bring more and more international economic resources under its control, much like superpowers of history. I also think it can continue to do successfully, much to the loss of the other citizens of the world, provided it does so its traditional subtle manner, rather than its neo-con-advised open manner. All US Presidents have invaded other countries. They just have done it in a more intelligent and less blunt manner than W.
The US needs to do the above to maintain its superpower status. As long as it can sucessfully do so, it will be able to compensate for any internal economic shortcomings. Historically speaking, the moment superpowers lose their ability to colonize is the moment they cease to remain superpowers.
#27 Posted by einsteinwallah on July 3, 2003 9:46:38 am
[#23 by einsteinwallah on July 3, 2003 7:50am PT
...
Is INR so bad? ]
Correction. I wanted to say: Is GBP so bad?
Basis of calculation is this: as per website: http://money.cnn.com/markets/currencies/crosscurr.html, 1 INR can buy 0.012850 GBP. So, 1000 INR can buy 12.85 GBP. So I spend 11.99 on purchase of 1000 INR and sell it at 12.85 GBP. Or, am I missing something here?
...
Is INR so bad? ]
Correction. I wanted to say: Is GBP so bad?
Basis of calculation is this: as per website: http://money.cnn.com/markets/currencies/crosscurr.html, 1 INR can buy 0.012850 GBP. So, 1000 INR can buy 12.85 GBP. So I spend 11.99 on purchase of 1000 INR and sell it at 12.85 GBP. Or, am I missing something here?
#26 Posted by tahmed32 on July 3, 2003 9:46:38 am
SR #25 you write ``“Invest” in a new SUV and “invest” in US bonds or better still buy US bond mutual funds and buy tech stocks, particularly semi-conductors and internets. Better yet tech stock mutual funds. Go on and leverage yourself to the hilt. ``
Now we are talking! Actually, what would you think about investing in real estate? I understand real estate is overvalued worldwide, but far more overvalued in UK and Europe than in the US (this is per the series of articles on real estate values recently in the Economist). Given the great leverage one gets in real estate (i.e. cash down may be your own, but the rest is mortgage), and given the natural barriers to entry (more people can invest in mutual funds than in investment properties), I would think real estate should be the place to invest. Any advice, Warren Buffet (I mean Sohail Rabbani)??
Now we are talking! Actually, what would you think about investing in real estate? I understand real estate is overvalued worldwide, but far more overvalued in UK and Europe than in the US (this is per the series of articles on real estate values recently in the Economist). Given the great leverage one gets in real estate (i.e. cash down may be your own, but the rest is mortgage), and given the natural barriers to entry (more people can invest in mutual funds than in investment properties), I would think real estate should be the place to invest. Any advice, Warren Buffet (I mean Sohail Rabbani)??
#25 Posted by Maharana on July 3, 2003 9:11:34 am
SR #20,
(Inquirer and Sameer too)
I should have said `` Saam, Daam, Dand, Bhed``, translation - Coaxing, bribing, threatening, spying.
The fundamentals of business, before colonialism were mutual benefit. But the europeans, gave a new model to it, viz. colonize, enslave, exploit to ensure win-lose condition in business. A tiny minority of british due to their shrewdness and manipulation of mass psyche could fill their coffers with loot beyond the imagination of Nadir shahs and gaznavis, without the unneccessary murder and mayhem. Perhaps the europeans then were not the first, arabs too acted like mercenaries.
Do you believe the nations in business with US are getting appropriate values for their goods/service? Who decides those values? Is it just the market?
Why do you believe puppet regimes are installed by US in various countries? Is it not for exploiting their natural resources too without having to look like an imperial power?
SR, you can ge the best darjeeling tea in UK for an affordable price. That tea being a product of india is non-existent for indian consumers. You can get cheaper gasoline in US than many other oil producing nations. I don`t have a financial acumen, but if you can respond to me on these questions, It will clear my misconceptions.
Adios
(Inquirer and Sameer too)
I should have said `` Saam, Daam, Dand, Bhed``, translation - Coaxing, bribing, threatening, spying.
The fundamentals of business, before colonialism were mutual benefit. But the europeans, gave a new model to it, viz. colonize, enslave, exploit to ensure win-lose condition in business. A tiny minority of british due to their shrewdness and manipulation of mass psyche could fill their coffers with loot beyond the imagination of Nadir shahs and gaznavis, without the unneccessary murder and mayhem. Perhaps the europeans then were not the first, arabs too acted like mercenaries.
Do you believe the nations in business with US are getting appropriate values for their goods/service? Who decides those values? Is it just the market?
Why do you believe puppet regimes are installed by US in various countries? Is it not for exploiting their natural resources too without having to look like an imperial power?
SR, you can ge the best darjeeling tea in UK for an affordable price. That tea being a product of india is non-existent for indian consumers. You can get cheaper gasoline in US than many other oil producing nations. I don`t have a financial acumen, but if you can respond to me on these questions, It will clear my misconceptions.
Adios
#24 Posted by sac on July 3, 2003 8:43:21 am
re SR #20:
The reason I brought up the question of ``real`` assets was that you believe that a country`s currency needs to be backed up by something tangible like the love of your life(if you pardon the expression) gold. Both of us know that a balance sheet is simply an attempt at an abstraction. DCFs and what not do not tell us that Microsoft is worth 26 bucks. On a macro level, the same principal holds for global economies. If one were to use debtor/creditor nation criterion, everyone would be buying yen and yuan. Yet there is still a capital flow towards the US.
I agree with you that American deficits and spending are a malaise that need to be checked. However it is precisely a disregard for the future in favor of the present that has served America so well. While the socialist economies were drawing up their 10-year plans and the Japanese were using their MITI to propel them forward, the Americans were typically not worried about anything but the next quarter. That great man Reagan ran up huge deficits and ran the Soviets into the ground. Would anyone who cared about the implications 30 years later have done that? Granted this focus on the short term has come back to bite America with its Enrons and Worldcoms but this is the price one has to be prepared to pay for maximizing short term gains. Tomorrow is another day. If you don`t believe in it, then shut the hatch, hoard gold and get ready for Armageddon.
Its a charade, both you and I know it but I am content to bury my head in the sand and put my faith in the ingenuity and inventiveness of the human race. We can talk all day about dangerous debt levels and spiralling deficits but I am sure there is a butterfly out there in your backyard that is ready to flap its wings that will put to rest any argument on the subject.
later
-sac
The reason I brought up the question of ``real`` assets was that you believe that a country`s currency needs to be backed up by something tangible like the love of your life(if you pardon the expression) gold. Both of us know that a balance sheet is simply an attempt at an abstraction. DCFs and what not do not tell us that Microsoft is worth 26 bucks. On a macro level, the same principal holds for global economies. If one were to use debtor/creditor nation criterion, everyone would be buying yen and yuan. Yet there is still a capital flow towards the US.
I agree with you that American deficits and spending are a malaise that need to be checked. However it is precisely a disregard for the future in favor of the present that has served America so well. While the socialist economies were drawing up their 10-year plans and the Japanese were using their MITI to propel them forward, the Americans were typically not worried about anything but the next quarter. That great man Reagan ran up huge deficits and ran the Soviets into the ground. Would anyone who cared about the implications 30 years later have done that? Granted this focus on the short term has come back to bite America with its Enrons and Worldcoms but this is the price one has to be prepared to pay for maximizing short term gains. Tomorrow is another day. If you don`t believe in it, then shut the hatch, hoard gold and get ready for Armageddon.
Its a charade, both you and I know it but I am content to bury my head in the sand and put my faith in the ingenuity and inventiveness of the human race. We can talk all day about dangerous debt levels and spiralling deficits but I am sure there is a butterfly out there in your backyard that is ready to flap its wings that will put to rest any argument on the subject.
later
-sac
#23 Posted by einsteinwallah on July 3, 2003 7:50:50 am
[The world may not think so yet, but America may be getting ready to depart. ]
Departing to where? Planet Mars?
Anyways... once upon a time Indian currency notes used to have a promise (I guess from Governor of Reserve Bank of India) as follows: ``I promise to pay the bearer the sum of x rupees on demand at any office of issue``. New currency notes have abbreviated promise: ``I promise to pay the bearer the sum of x rupees``. I wonder what these promises mean.
Right now on eBay somebody in UK is selling 10 hundred Indian rupee notes for 9.99 GBP with 2 GBP for posting to a UK address. Which makes 1000 INR = 11.99 GBP. Is INR so bad? The notes are brand new but not what collectors call UNC (for uncirculated).
Departing to where? Planet Mars?
Anyways... once upon a time Indian currency notes used to have a promise (I guess from Governor of Reserve Bank of India) as follows: ``I promise to pay the bearer the sum of x rupees on demand at any office of issue``. New currency notes have abbreviated promise: ``I promise to pay the bearer the sum of x rupees``. I wonder what these promises mean.
Right now on eBay somebody in UK is selling 10 hundred Indian rupee notes for 9.99 GBP with 2 GBP for posting to a UK address. Which makes 1000 INR = 11.99 GBP. Is INR so bad? The notes are brand new but not what collectors call UNC (for uncirculated).
#22 Posted by SR on July 3, 2003 7:23:00 am
#1 Inquirer [“…One needs to honestly look at the achievements of US …”]
There is no argument about it. As I also wrote in the essay, “America was, by far, the world leader in industrial production, investment capital, energy production and exports. The GDP was more than 40% of the entire world’s GDP. America had the financial power to dwarf anyone else’s in the rest of the world. Everyone was in awe of the United States of America. In less than two hundred years this young nation had become the greatest of Great Powers.”
The thrust of my argument revolves around the consequences of “new” economic paradigm that has been in place for the last 30 years and that is fundamentally flawed because it is short sighted and cannot be sustained. What made America great was whatever happened from after the War of 1812 and until the Vietnam War. Thereafter nasty brown stuff started hitting the fan and splattering around. Now we are beginning to smell it.
#2 temporal [“…aapki baatain humari samajh say bala haiN:) …”]
josh-e-janooN say kuch nazar aata nehiN Assad
sehrah hamari aankH meiN musht-e-khaak hai
(O Assad, we can see nothing in the ferment of frenzy
In our eyes the desert waste is naught but a handful of dust) :)
#4 rsaxena [“...solow uncle has answers to all these problems...we just need to look carefully...”]
Only some of us wouldn’t know where to start looking.
#5 by sac [“…Hope you are doing well. …
Does the US own any assets that may be considered ``real`` ... include ferderal lands, forests, Mount Rushmore etc. in your estimation. …”]
sac:
I am beginning to feel a lot better now. Almost back to status quo ante. Thank you very much for asking.
The US, of course has vast quantities of “real” assets. No one can deny that. I certainly don’t. Supposedly, the world’s largest over-ground gold reserves are also in US hands (and ultimately that may end up being the final salvation). But I don’t understand why you would even bring it up? Was it anything I wrote in the article? I never implied America is a poor country. It does concern me though that, the way things are going, if fundamental structural readjustments are not made, a day will surely come, perhaps even as early as middle half of this century, when America will be reduced to the status of a second rate power, as Britain is today for instance.
My gripe is with (1) wasteful over consumption, (2) debt-driven out-of-control spending, and (3) government interference and manipulation of the economy. These are not the things that made America great, but they will certainly lead it down the path of trouble.
#6 SaimaShah
My sympathies also genrerally incline in the same direction and I have no dispute with anything you wrote, except that I get the impression that you are looking towards government intervention for solutions. I believe that already there is way too much government intervention. Entirely too much. Government, and particularly big government, in my world view, is the greatest of curses that can befall any economy. When America was young, government was small, and the enterprising sprit was unmolested. That gradually changed as government assumed greater and greater power and started mucking things up. The mega corporations also became a sort of demi governments and the weight of bureaucracy (both government and corporate) started crushing the free entrepreneurial spirit of society and we’ve seen this great country which could have been a model of paradise on earth become another juggernaut imperial machine. Small is beautiful.
The old leftist of my youthful days may balk, but I shall say it because it’s undeniable. I’ve come to the sober realization that any social program dealing with income redistribution is fundamentally doomed and will take the system down with it. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn’t.
#7 Maharana [“…it can only maintain its living standards through weilding its danda on the weak and kindness of stronger nations…”]
I think that “danda” is over rated. Power comes in many shades. Military power is only one kind of power. Not all problems can be solved by military power. But ever Great Power of its day makes the mistake of over stretching itself militarily. It works for a while but then the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Today, America still have the greatest military might the world has ever seen. But America’s problems are multi faceted and cannot be solved by military might.
Thank you for your kind appreciation.
#8 Sameer [“…the biggest threat to US economy would come from demography. The demographic changes of three groups in particular, central Americans, African Americans and Muslim Americans threaten US economy like nothing else...”]
I fully concur with the first half of your statement that demographics are America’s BIG (if not biggest) problem. But I wouldn’t blame the browns. Yes, a lot of social polarization and cultural strife can be anticipated due to the ‘browning’ of America. But I fail to see how this shift in the ethnic mix will ultimately be the downfall. It could very well be a strength of America to have the diversity. The problem actually comes from the age cohort distribution. The flood of the elderly is what threatens the medium term future, i.e., next few decades.
#8 tahmed [“… predictions of the demise of the US have been made. …Didnt happen…
Kennedy`s book where he predicted the imminent decline of US economic strength. That book was written in 1986. This was just before the US went into the longest period of economic expansion.
… due to innovations, these being in the hi-tech industry… adjustment of the economy at a higher plateau, with the results of the high tech firmly embedded in the economy… technology driven expansion has changed the world and given rise to Globalisation…. getting ready to … change not just the world economic structure but the face of mankind itself. … the US remains a dynamic nation … you concern yourself with water ripples on the surface, while ignoring the seismic events that give rise to tsunamis. …”]
First, I only borrowed one phrase (“imperial over-stretch”) from Paul Kennedy’s book and that phrase has actually entered the mainstream English language. The book though written in 1986 and was not precise in its conjecture about the Japanese economic ascendancy (though I wouldn’t write the Japanese off altogether), is nonetheless a brilliant book with a lot more depth to it than this superficial criticism that one reads in reactionary magazines. I suggest you read it. I promise you won’t poo-poo his scholarly masterpiece after actually going through it.
Second, I am not one to deny some of the positives that you and others refer to regarding America. But I do not share your blind and unfettered faith. Decent people can disagree and come to different conclusions.
However, I dare you to put your money where your mouth is. Meaning that you should go ahead and take out a mortgage on your house if it is paid for. If you have a mortgage already, then go ahead and re-finance it and draw out all the equity you can. “Invest” in a new SUV and “invest” in US bonds or better still buy US bond mutual funds and buy tech stocks, particularly semi-conductors and internets. Better yet tech stock mutual funds. Go on and leverage yourself to the hilt. And yes, don’t even touch gold or mining company stocks. But remember, when you make your millions after the Great Boom that is coming just around the corner, don’t forget to send a few bread crumbs to poor folks like me who will be lined up in the Salvation Army soup kitchens.
#10 arjun_m [“…blame the jews and i`d be sure you were Pat Buchanan in disguise…”]
Nothing wrong with good ole Pat? He’s a heck of a lot better than your Dubbya.
#11 Romair [“… The US military budget will soon be higher than the military budget of the rest of the world combined. …it will touch a total of $400 billion soon.
How can the US military make money?
- Is there any other reason (other than control of international natural resources) involved in spending $350 billion dollars more on a military, than needed?
- What would happen if the oil producing countries switched to the Euro? Can they do that? Why don`t they do that? And was Iraq about to initiate something like that? …”]
As far as military spending is concerned, it comes down to my same old pet peeve, that is, government spending. I don’t care if it is farm subsidies, S&L bail out, prescription drug benefit or building air craft carriers, its all government spending and it’s all wasteful and rotten. Regardless of the morality of it, I am against big government spending projects and military is right up there along with debt servicing and just behind Social Security.
Military does not make money it wastes money. It is a mistaken notion to think that US could take over other people’s natural resources and sit pretty. In Iraq for instance, a few corporations will surely profit big, call it crony capitalism if you want, but the US as a whole only loses. It’s not a profitable venture. It is a stupid venture and Dubbya is a moron to have gotten the country involved in the muck of Middle East. It’s not good for the Iraqi people nor for the American people.
Coming to the Euro issue, yes, Saddam Hussain had signed his own death warrant when, three years ago he started insisting on getting paid for oil exports in Euro instead of the USD. Now Iran is talking about it. The biggest Indonesian oil company three months ago started selling some of its oil in Euros and Venezuela is also going that route. There are rumors that OPEC may be considering such “diversification” also.
All this is dragging the exchange value of the dollar further and further down. Low interest rates and the red hot printing presses at the US mint are adding to this gradual decay of the dollar and that is exactly what this article is about and everyone living in or invested in America should be alarmed and scandalized about this coming fiasco.
…SR
There is no argument about it. As I also wrote in the essay, “America was, by far, the world leader in industrial production, investment capital, energy production and exports. The GDP was more than 40% of the entire world’s GDP. America had the financial power to dwarf anyone else’s in the rest of the world. Everyone was in awe of the United States of America. In less than two hundred years this young nation had become the greatest of Great Powers.”
The thrust of my argument revolves around the consequences of “new” economic paradigm that has been in place for the last 30 years and that is fundamentally flawed because it is short sighted and cannot be sustained. What made America great was whatever happened from after the War of 1812 and until the Vietnam War. Thereafter nasty brown stuff started hitting the fan and splattering around. Now we are beginning to smell it.
#2 temporal [“…aapki baatain humari samajh say bala haiN:) …”]
josh-e-janooN say kuch nazar aata nehiN Assad
sehrah hamari aankH meiN musht-e-khaak hai
(O Assad, we can see nothing in the ferment of frenzy
In our eyes the desert waste is naught but a handful of dust) :)
#4 rsaxena [“...solow uncle has answers to all these problems...we just need to look carefully...”]
Only some of us wouldn’t know where to start looking.
#5 by sac [“…Hope you are doing well. …
Does the US own any assets that may be considered ``real`` ... include ferderal lands, forests, Mount Rushmore etc. in your estimation. …”]
sac:
I am beginning to feel a lot better now. Almost back to status quo ante. Thank you very much for asking.
The US, of course has vast quantities of “real” assets. No one can deny that. I certainly don’t. Supposedly, the world’s largest over-ground gold reserves are also in US hands (and ultimately that may end up being the final salvation). But I don’t understand why you would even bring it up? Was it anything I wrote in the article? I never implied America is a poor country. It does concern me though that, the way things are going, if fundamental structural readjustments are not made, a day will surely come, perhaps even as early as middle half of this century, when America will be reduced to the status of a second rate power, as Britain is today for instance.
My gripe is with (1) wasteful over consumption, (2) debt-driven out-of-control spending, and (3) government interference and manipulation of the economy. These are not the things that made America great, but they will certainly lead it down the path of trouble.
#6 SaimaShah
My sympathies also genrerally incline in the same direction and I have no dispute with anything you wrote, except that I get the impression that you are looking towards government intervention for solutions. I believe that already there is way too much government intervention. Entirely too much. Government, and particularly big government, in my world view, is the greatest of curses that can befall any economy. When America was young, government was small, and the enterprising sprit was unmolested. That gradually changed as government assumed greater and greater power and started mucking things up. The mega corporations also became a sort of demi governments and the weight of bureaucracy (both government and corporate) started crushing the free entrepreneurial spirit of society and we’ve seen this great country which could have been a model of paradise on earth become another juggernaut imperial machine. Small is beautiful.
The old leftist of my youthful days may balk, but I shall say it because it’s undeniable. I’ve come to the sober realization that any social program dealing with income redistribution is fundamentally doomed and will take the system down with it. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn’t.
#7 Maharana [“…it can only maintain its living standards through weilding its danda on the weak and kindness of stronger nations…”]
I think that “danda” is over rated. Power comes in many shades. Military power is only one kind of power. Not all problems can be solved by military power. But ever Great Power of its day makes the mistake of over stretching itself militarily. It works for a while but then the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Today, America still have the greatest military might the world has ever seen. But America’s problems are multi faceted and cannot be solved by military might.
Thank you for your kind appreciation.
#8 Sameer [“…the biggest threat to US economy would come from demography. The demographic changes of three groups in particular, central Americans, African Americans and Muslim Americans threaten US economy like nothing else...”]
I fully concur with the first half of your statement that demographics are America’s BIG (if not biggest) problem. But I wouldn’t blame the browns. Yes, a lot of social polarization and cultural strife can be anticipated due to the ‘browning’ of America. But I fail to see how this shift in the ethnic mix will ultimately be the downfall. It could very well be a strength of America to have the diversity. The problem actually comes from the age cohort distribution. The flood of the elderly is what threatens the medium term future, i.e., next few decades.
#8 tahmed [“… predictions of the demise of the US have been made. …Didnt happen…
Kennedy`s book where he predicted the imminent decline of US economic strength. That book was written in 1986. This was just before the US went into the longest period of economic expansion.
… due to innovations, these being in the hi-tech industry… adjustment of the economy at a higher plateau, with the results of the high tech firmly embedded in the economy… technology driven expansion has changed the world and given rise to Globalisation…. getting ready to … change not just the world economic structure but the face of mankind itself. … the US remains a dynamic nation … you concern yourself with water ripples on the surface, while ignoring the seismic events that give rise to tsunamis. …”]
First, I only borrowed one phrase (“imperial over-stretch”) from Paul Kennedy’s book and that phrase has actually entered the mainstream English language. The book though written in 1986 and was not precise in its conjecture about the Japanese economic ascendancy (though I wouldn’t write the Japanese off altogether), is nonetheless a brilliant book with a lot more depth to it than this superficial criticism that one reads in reactionary magazines. I suggest you read it. I promise you won’t poo-poo his scholarly masterpiece after actually going through it.
Second, I am not one to deny some of the positives that you and others refer to regarding America. But I do not share your blind and unfettered faith. Decent people can disagree and come to different conclusions.
However, I dare you to put your money where your mouth is. Meaning that you should go ahead and take out a mortgage on your house if it is paid for. If you have a mortgage already, then go ahead and re-finance it and draw out all the equity you can. “Invest” in a new SUV and “invest” in US bonds or better still buy US bond mutual funds and buy tech stocks, particularly semi-conductors and internets. Better yet tech stock mutual funds. Go on and leverage yourself to the hilt. And yes, don’t even touch gold or mining company stocks. But remember, when you make your millions after the Great Boom that is coming just around the corner, don’t forget to send a few bread crumbs to poor folks like me who will be lined up in the Salvation Army soup kitchens.
#10 arjun_m [“…blame the jews and i`d be sure you were Pat Buchanan in disguise…”]
Nothing wrong with good ole Pat? He’s a heck of a lot better than your Dubbya.
#11 Romair [“… The US military budget will soon be higher than the military budget of the rest of the world combined. …it will touch a total of $400 billion soon.
How can the US military make money?
- Is there any other reason (other than control of international natural resources) involved in spending $350 billion dollars more on a military, than needed?
- What would happen if the oil producing countries switched to the Euro? Can they do that? Why don`t they do that? And was Iraq about to initiate something like that? …”]
As far as military spending is concerned, it comes down to my same old pet peeve, that is, government spending. I don’t care if it is farm subsidies, S&L bail out, prescription drug benefit or building air craft carriers, its all government spending and it’s all wasteful and rotten. Regardless of the morality of it, I am against big government spending projects and military is right up there along with debt servicing and just behind Social Security.
Military does not make money it wastes money. It is a mistaken notion to think that US could take over other people’s natural resources and sit pretty. In Iraq for instance, a few corporations will surely profit big, call it crony capitalism if you want, but the US as a whole only loses. It’s not a profitable venture. It is a stupid venture and Dubbya is a moron to have gotten the country involved in the muck of Middle East. It’s not good for the Iraqi people nor for the American people.
Coming to the Euro issue, yes, Saddam Hussain had signed his own death warrant when, three years ago he started insisting on getting paid for oil exports in Euro instead of the USD. Now Iran is talking about it. The biggest Indonesian oil company three months ago started selling some of its oil in Euros and Venezuela is also going that route. There are rumors that OPEC may be considering such “diversification” also.
All this is dragging the exchange value of the dollar further and further down. Low interest rates and the red hot printing presses at the US mint are adding to this gradual decay of the dollar and that is exactly what this article is about and everyone living in or invested in America should be alarmed and scandalized about this coming fiasco.
…SR
#21 Posted by hrrehman on July 3, 2003 7:23:00 am
#13 by arjun_m on July 2, 2003 7:29pm PT
Cannibalism still exists in Modern India
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=29678
I know you guys are use to drinking urine, but Cannibalism?
I guess the powerty in India, who can blame you people.
does it taste like CHICKEN?
Cannibalism still exists in Modern India
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=29678
I know you guys are use to drinking urine, but Cannibalism?
I guess the powerty in India, who can blame you people.
does it taste like CHICKEN?
#20 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 3, 2003 7:23:00 am
It was all going great for US.
But with this unilateral attack on Iraq, I think the die has been cast.
In history, the decay of all great powers began when they reached reached this stage of power and culture - and began to appear unjust.
#19 Posted by Inquirer on July 3, 2003 7:22:45 am
#9, tahmed 32: I agree with your assessment of the article. As long as America remains true to the American Constitution, Jeffersonian spirit (He had mass social acceptance of Am Indians!) and retains a sense of fiscal responsibility in that the nation`s laws should benefit the masses rather than selected few, it will be an ascendant nation.
It is true that India, China and European Union (if it can gel to be a coherent power) have similar potential but it is also real that all of these powers have `the incubi`` that oppress them. All of these nations have two weaknesses which are almost disintegrating. All of them believe in elitist form of community. Great emphasis on greats rather than evolving methods that would use the leadership of greats to further the cause of the common, average humans. These nations may also fail because they may not be able to integrate their diverse elements.
#8,Samerjb: I think we need to desist from ethnicising the issues we discuss.
#7, Maharana: I think it is not right that America rests on other nations. There is always international politics which is a tool of using other nations as suppliers, allies, and even as enemies to further their own benefit. It is misleading to theorize that America is standing on the sacrifices of other nations. If that were the case why don`t the other nations withold that support? The current anti-Americanism is due to the increased emphasis by US on Wolfowitz Doctrine. There is some truth in it and there is no harm in employing it as long as the salient principles I pointed out to tahmed32 are not grossly violated.
It is true that India, China and European Union (if it can gel to be a coherent power) have similar potential but it is also real that all of these powers have `the incubi`` that oppress them. All of these nations have two weaknesses which are almost disintegrating. All of them believe in elitist form of community. Great emphasis on greats rather than evolving methods that would use the leadership of greats to further the cause of the common, average humans. These nations may also fail because they may not be able to integrate their diverse elements.
#8,Samerjb: I think we need to desist from ethnicising the issues we discuss.
#7, Maharana: I think it is not right that America rests on other nations. There is always international politics which is a tool of using other nations as suppliers, allies, and even as enemies to further their own benefit. It is misleading to theorize that America is standing on the sacrifices of other nations. If that were the case why don`t the other nations withold that support? The current anti-Americanism is due to the increased emphasis by US on Wolfowitz Doctrine. There is some truth in it and there is no harm in employing it as long as the salient principles I pointed out to tahmed32 are not grossly violated.
#18 Posted by soundmeister on July 3, 2003 7:22:45 am
At last a well-researched, cogently argued article on chowk that rises above petty length comparisons.... somehow I get the feeling that while the author`s argument works at a macroeconomic level, it may not be true for the microeconomic scenario--- in short, it`s a bit of conspiracy theory paranoia happening!
Chill dude--Amreeka still rich---we still poor--- that`s the bottomline! :))
Chill dude--Amreeka still rich---we still poor--- that`s the bottomline! :))
#17 Posted by stuka on July 3, 2003 7:22:44 am
Romair:
``The US military budget will soon be higher than the military budget of the rest of the world combined.``
As per Newsweek, it already is.
``The US military budget will soon be higher than the military budget of the rest of the world combined.``
As per Newsweek, it already is.
#16 Posted by hrrehman on July 2, 2003 10:55:25 pm
13 by arjun_m on July 2, 2003 7:29pm PT
Leave it to our Hindu Boy to make it a Pakistan centric issue.
So much hatred in your vains for Pakistanis, did one of us
ran off w/your wife?
Leave it to our Hindu Boy to make it a Pakistan centric issue.
So much hatred in your vains for Pakistanis, did one of us
ran off w/your wife?
#15 Posted by veeresh on July 2, 2003 10:55:25 pm
Empire or illusion, they seem to be having great fun while they are at it.
Which is more than what can be said for other parts of the world.
And with the population of young people dropping drastically in Europe, they can probably take over?
Which is more than what can be said for other parts of the world.
And with the population of young people dropping drastically in Europe, they can probably take over?
#14 Posted by SameerJB on July 2, 2003 8:32:45 pm
Romair:
Most of the military spending in USA comes back to the economy through military industrial complex and personel spendings. Actually much smaller share of 300 billioin dollars is used in importing items from China than Wal-Mart , Home Depot and Loews of this world. These 3 chain stores alone are adding huge percent in trade defict with China or trade surplus for China. Military on the other hand pays too much for the same Chinese made items but produced within USA. All the congressmen, senators and governors lobby with the military to spend in their constituencies.
I am not supporting this level of military spending because less military spending means less budget deficit. I am strictly talking about trade deficit here.
Maharana:
I don`t think danda can improve economy. Actually using danda on smaller weak countries costs money. What have USA gotton from Afghanistan for 10 billion dollars or more it spent on war? The pipleline is a pipe dream and recovering 10 billion 10 years later mean breaking even with recovering more than 20 billion dollars. That will be the day! Same is true for 80 billion dollars spent on Iraq war. The biggest challenge to US economically is coming from Europe and Euro in particular.
Most of the military spending in USA comes back to the economy through military industrial complex and personel spendings. Actually much smaller share of 300 billioin dollars is used in importing items from China than Wal-Mart , Home Depot and Loews of this world. These 3 chain stores alone are adding huge percent in trade defict with China or trade surplus for China. Military on the other hand pays too much for the same Chinese made items but produced within USA. All the congressmen, senators and governors lobby with the military to spend in their constituencies.
I am not supporting this level of military spending because less military spending means less budget deficit. I am strictly talking about trade deficit here.
Maharana:
I don`t think danda can improve economy. Actually using danda on smaller weak countries costs money. What have USA gotton from Afghanistan for 10 billion dollars or more it spent on war? The pipleline is a pipe dream and recovering 10 billion 10 years later mean breaking even with recovering more than 20 billion dollars. That will be the day! Same is true for 80 billion dollars spent on Iraq war. The biggest challenge to US economically is coming from Europe and Euro in particular.
#13 Posted by arjun_m on July 2, 2003 7:29:12 pm
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#12 Posted by arjun_m on July 2, 2003 7:27:37 pm
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#11 Posted by Romair on July 2, 2003 6:26:56 pm
Very interesting and educational. Some questions, at the end:
The US military budget will soon be higher than the military budget of the rest of the world combined. It is already higher than that of the next 23 countries combined. It usually hovers around $100 billion per year per force. I believe it will touch a total of $400 billion soon. In comparison, Canada with an equivalent border threat and size, has a military budget of around $13 billion, or so. Pakistan with a much larger border threat has a military budget of around $2.8 billion. And India with a larger threat than USA, and four times the population, has a military budget of around $15 billion.
``As retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, former Air Force chief of staff, said at the time of last year’s budget request, “if we can’t defend this country for $300 billion a year we ought to get some new generals.”
So, it is very difficult to understand why the extra $100 billion is needed. Unless.....
The US Navy works on a 600 ship philosophy, while very few countries in the world can afford 600 old fighter aircraft. The size of the air branch of the US Navy is larger than nearly all Air Forces of the world. The reason I bring up the Navy is because a large Navy, with aircraft carriers, is the ultimate sign of offensive weaponry. They are not used to protect the USA. They are used to attack other countries.
If a country is not under threat from its borders, like the USA is not, then it must keep a large military only if it makes economic sense, i.e. it will spend $400 billion on the military, when it needs to only spend $15 billion, because it knows the military will generate more than $400 billion for it in return. This is why all other Western nations, have militaries that are getting smaller and smaller. While the USA`s is getting larger and larger.
How can the US military make money? Defence exports are all under civilian companies like Boeing, Lockheed etc. So the military isn`t exporting much. The biggest military expenses, Navy and Air Force, in that order, cannot be used as manpower to build roads etc. It carries out a lot of scientific research, but that can be carried out in civilian research centers.
The only way I can think of, is by invading other countries, for economic benefits. A kinder gentler form of colonialism, where the locals are not treated as inferiors while their resoruces are taken, mixed with some human rights based invasions (like Bosnia). This is why the USA invades around one country per year or two (don`t have the exact average), in some form or fashion. This is by far a larger amount than any other country in the world. And since domestically, the US treats people well, these people tend to think that the US is very humane when it invades these countries. A closer look will reveal otherwise. The current Iraqi invasion had a budget of around $70 billion or so. That amounts to a lot of expensive weaponry being used. The US massive firepower during battle is a sight to see. Humane is the last word I would use for it.
So, as a counter to your analysis, of the USA not producing anything and just spending,and thus going bust:
Wouldn`t it be possible for the USA to make up for not producing anything, by just invading other countries, subtley or openly, and taking direct or indirect control of their resources (or economic systems)? Why produce something, when you can just take it from others? No other country in the world, except maybe (big maybe) China can think of doing that. And even China can only do it along its borders. It does not have nearly a powerful enough Navy to do it beyond its own neighborhood.
Assuming oil is now at the top, or close to the top of the production food chain (after or before gold), then any country that controls the world`s oil, could just sell it and survive on its, ``services`` industry. It wouldn`t need to produce much else, other than a high tech educated populace. The biggest oil reserves in the world are in Saudi Arabia (26% of the world`s total known reserves). The US has indirect control over those, and the Saudi monarchy would never allow the oil price to go beyond a limit set by the US. The second biggest, at 11% are in Iraq, and those are now directly under the US control (so even Saudi oil is not needed anymore). And the third largest maybe in central Asia, and the US is sitting close to them in Afghanistan.
All of this must total in the trillions. Hence a very nice payback on a $400 billion annual investment in the military.
Based on this, some questions for you:
- Do you think the USA can survive in its current spending sprees if it can regularly invade and control high-demand natural resources of other countries? If so, will the USA`s tendency to invade other countries increase, now that its own manufacturing industry is going down the drain?
- If a country has a lot of oil and a strong services industry, can it keep its high standard of living even without a strong manufacturing industry?
- Is there any other reason (other than control of international natural resources) involved in spending $350 billion dollars more on a military, than needed?
- What would happen if the oil producing countries switched to the Euro? Can they do that? Why don`t they do that? And was Iraq about to initiate something like that?
Your insight will be greatly appreciated.......
The US military budget will soon be higher than the military budget of the rest of the world combined. It is already higher than that of the next 23 countries combined. It usually hovers around $100 billion per year per force. I believe it will touch a total of $400 billion soon. In comparison, Canada with an equivalent border threat and size, has a military budget of around $13 billion, or so. Pakistan with a much larger border threat has a military budget of around $2.8 billion. And India with a larger threat than USA, and four times the population, has a military budget of around $15 billion.
``As retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, former Air Force chief of staff, said at the time of last year’s budget request, “if we can’t defend this country for $300 billion a year we ought to get some new generals.”
So, it is very difficult to understand why the extra $100 billion is needed. Unless.....
The US Navy works on a 600 ship philosophy, while very few countries in the world can afford 600 old fighter aircraft. The size of the air branch of the US Navy is larger than nearly all Air Forces of the world. The reason I bring up the Navy is because a large Navy, with aircraft carriers, is the ultimate sign of offensive weaponry. They are not used to protect the USA. They are used to attack other countries.
If a country is not under threat from its borders, like the USA is not, then it must keep a large military only if it makes economic sense, i.e. it will spend $400 billion on the military, when it needs to only spend $15 billion, because it knows the military will generate more than $400 billion for it in return. This is why all other Western nations, have militaries that are getting smaller and smaller. While the USA`s is getting larger and larger.
How can the US military make money? Defence exports are all under civilian companies like Boeing, Lockheed etc. So the military isn`t exporting much. The biggest military expenses, Navy and Air Force, in that order, cannot be used as manpower to build roads etc. It carries out a lot of scientific research, but that can be carried out in civilian research centers.
The only way I can think of, is by invading other countries, for economic benefits. A kinder gentler form of colonialism, where the locals are not treated as inferiors while their resoruces are taken, mixed with some human rights based invasions (like Bosnia). This is why the USA invades around one country per year or two (don`t have the exact average), in some form or fashion. This is by far a larger amount than any other country in the world. And since domestically, the US treats people well, these people tend to think that the US is very humane when it invades these countries. A closer look will reveal otherwise. The current Iraqi invasion had a budget of around $70 billion or so. That amounts to a lot of expensive weaponry being used. The US massive firepower during battle is a sight to see. Humane is the last word I would use for it.
So, as a counter to your analysis, of the USA not producing anything and just spending,and thus going bust:
Wouldn`t it be possible for the USA to make up for not producing anything, by just invading other countries, subtley or openly, and taking direct or indirect control of their resources (or economic systems)? Why produce something, when you can just take it from others? No other country in the world, except maybe (big maybe) China can think of doing that. And even China can only do it along its borders. It does not have nearly a powerful enough Navy to do it beyond its own neighborhood.
Assuming oil is now at the top, or close to the top of the production food chain (after or before gold), then any country that controls the world`s oil, could just sell it and survive on its, ``services`` industry. It wouldn`t need to produce much else, other than a high tech educated populace. The biggest oil reserves in the world are in Saudi Arabia (26% of the world`s total known reserves). The US has indirect control over those, and the Saudi monarchy would never allow the oil price to go beyond a limit set by the US. The second biggest, at 11% are in Iraq, and those are now directly under the US control (so even Saudi oil is not needed anymore). And the third largest maybe in central Asia, and the US is sitting close to them in Afghanistan.
All of this must total in the trillions. Hence a very nice payback on a $400 billion annual investment in the military.
Based on this, some questions for you:
- Do you think the USA can survive in its current spending sprees if it can regularly invade and control high-demand natural resources of other countries? If so, will the USA`s tendency to invade other countries increase, now that its own manufacturing industry is going down the drain?
- If a country has a lot of oil and a strong services industry, can it keep its high standard of living even without a strong manufacturing industry?
- Is there any other reason (other than control of international natural resources) involved in spending $350 billion dollars more on a military, than needed?
- What would happen if the oil producing countries switched to the Euro? Can they do that? Why don`t they do that? And was Iraq about to initiate something like that?
Your insight will be greatly appreciated.......
#10 Posted by tahmed32 on July 2, 2003 5:48:43 pm
Good to see a fact filled article. However, it is off kilter imho for the following reasons:
a. Manufacturing vs. Services: All economies, not just the US, undergo a shift from manufacturing to services as they progress.
b. Knowledge content: Knowledge constitutes an increasing share of value-added in manufactured goods. And US continues to provide leadership in knowledge generation (witness the distribution of nobel prize in science over the past half century).
c. Innovation: The US remains the innovation capital of the world and has led the world in this throughout the 20th century and into the current century. Throughout the 20th century, predictions of the demise of the US have been made. The commies predicted with scientific precision the destruction of the capitalist system and the emergence of a communist paradise. Didnt happen, and the commies came and went.
You quote from John Kennedy`s book where he predicted the imminent decline of US economic strength. That book was written in 1986. This was just before the US went into the longest period of economic expansion. What is significant is that this expansion followed the classical Schumpeter model of economic growth (i.e. due to innovations, these being in the hi-tech industry) and the current recession fits hand in glove with that model (i.e. adjustment of the economy at a higher plateau, with the results of the high tech firmly embedded in the economy of not just the US but across the world). This technology driven expansion has changed the world and given rise to Globalisation. It now appears that decades of effort are now reaching their culmination as the next wave of changes - in the biotech field - is getting ready to crest over the next decade or so, and this set of changes will probably change not just the world economic structure but the face of mankind itself.
d. Today, the US remains a dynamic nation as it welcomes talent from across the world (i dont share sameerjb`s fear that the ``browning`` of the US will cause its decline). Europe and Japan continue to restrict immigration (no doubt due to unarticulated fears similar to sameerjb) and as a result are digging their own grave. India and China will grow, but whether they will ever develop the underpinnings of greatness of the US - something that may be summarized as the American Character - remains to be seen. Right now they carry too many incubii from their past decadent cultures. Africa and the middle east (oil riches are like lottery winnings - they disappear surprisingly quickly) are not going anywhere anytime soon except in small pockets (gulf states, south africa possibly).
These are the seismic factors that you overlook in your analysis. In this article, you concern yourself with water ripples on the surface, while ignoring the seismic events that give rise to tsunamis.
a. Manufacturing vs. Services: All economies, not just the US, undergo a shift from manufacturing to services as they progress.
b. Knowledge content: Knowledge constitutes an increasing share of value-added in manufactured goods. And US continues to provide leadership in knowledge generation (witness the distribution of nobel prize in science over the past half century).
c. Innovation: The US remains the innovation capital of the world and has led the world in this throughout the 20th century and into the current century. Throughout the 20th century, predictions of the demise of the US have been made. The commies predicted with scientific precision the destruction of the capitalist system and the emergence of a communist paradise. Didnt happen, and the commies came and went.
You quote from John Kennedy`s book where he predicted the imminent decline of US economic strength. That book was written in 1986. This was just before the US went into the longest period of economic expansion. What is significant is that this expansion followed the classical Schumpeter model of economic growth (i.e. due to innovations, these being in the hi-tech industry) and the current recession fits hand in glove with that model (i.e. adjustment of the economy at a higher plateau, with the results of the high tech firmly embedded in the economy of not just the US but across the world). This technology driven expansion has changed the world and given rise to Globalisation. It now appears that decades of effort are now reaching their culmination as the next wave of changes - in the biotech field - is getting ready to crest over the next decade or so, and this set of changes will probably change not just the world economic structure but the face of mankind itself.
d. Today, the US remains a dynamic nation as it welcomes talent from across the world (i dont share sameerjb`s fear that the ``browning`` of the US will cause its decline). Europe and Japan continue to restrict immigration (no doubt due to unarticulated fears similar to sameerjb) and as a result are digging their own grave. India and China will grow, but whether they will ever develop the underpinnings of greatness of the US - something that may be summarized as the American Character - remains to be seen. Right now they carry too many incubii from their past decadent cultures. Africa and the middle east (oil riches are like lottery winnings - they disappear surprisingly quickly) are not going anywhere anytime soon except in small pockets (gulf states, south africa possibly).
These are the seismic factors that you overlook in your analysis. In this article, you concern yourself with water ripples on the surface, while ignoring the seismic events that give rise to tsunamis.
#9 Posted by arjun_m on July 2, 2003 5:48:43 pm
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#8 Posted by SameerJB on July 2, 2003 2:47:04 pm
In my very very poor and naive opinion on this topic, the biggest threat to US economy would come from demography. The demographic changes of three groups in particular, central Americans, African Americans and Muslim Americans threaten US economy like nothing else. These three groups have irrational unquenchable thirst, which is not backed by logic of necessary societal changes along with highly entropic almost evangelic forms of radicalism and protestation.
#7 Posted by Maharana on July 2, 2003 2:20:39 pm
Sohail Rabbani,
A nice insightful article on the economic prosperity and depravity all in the same.
``Today the US economy is beholden to the rest of the world and the country can only maintain it’s living standards through the kindness of strangers.``
IMO it should read ``it can only maintain its living standards through weilding its danda on the weak and kindness of stronger nations.``
A similar article was mass mailed to me by an indianl, on how the asians conserve while americans splurge. The more the Americans splurge, the more we are forced to conserve. Its as if we conserve, so the rulers of the world can splurge.
Well, it was a pleasure reading it.
Adios
A nice insightful article on the economic prosperity and depravity all in the same.
``Today the US economy is beholden to the rest of the world and the country can only maintain it’s living standards through the kindness of strangers.``
IMO it should read ``it can only maintain its living standards through weilding its danda on the weak and kindness of stronger nations.``
A similar article was mass mailed to me by an indianl, on how the asians conserve while americans splurge. The more the Americans splurge, the more we are forced to conserve. Its as if we conserve, so the rulers of the world can splurge.
Well, it was a pleasure reading it.
Adios
#6 Posted by SaimaShah on July 2, 2003 1:45:46 pm
SR
It was simply great to read this article. Finally somebody has spoken about the charade of the `post-modern` `service-based` economy. Lies perpetuate wealth in the short term but lead to long periods of recession. The USA relies way too much on consumer sentiment to bolster the economy. The bluff is being called, but this sound bite culture is unable to appreciate the argument. The ability to standardize and sell can only go so far. Eventually control of natural resources will once again become the standard and source of wealth, I cannot see that attempts to replace that as a driver of the economy by consumption of man made things will be successful. As for outsourcing, the irony is too cute. After instituting barricades to foreign workers and protective visa restrications, the joke is that businesses just started buying skills from foreign countries and reduced the incomes and jobs of everybody inside north america, while increasing the spending power of people abroad. The foreign spending power does not translate to a rise in US exports however, because USA is too rich to be competitive...
Two values have had a huge impact on the situation today:
1. Profit maximization ( i.e., the price mechanism in a laissez faire economy (buying at the lowest price, selling at the highest) and
2. Choice
The pursuit of both goals seem to have led to a reduction in wealth and also a wider gap between stratas. The post modern economy has focused mostly on these values with a near complete exclusion of other social outcomes--except for small groups of ineffective protest so far. Efficiency is a goal for the individual enterprise but not the entire industry. It is assumed that efficiency for the single firm means efficiency fot the economic system--which is a fallacy. Nights and days can be spent on arguing this--but my purpose is not to say that a welfare or socialist state is a solution, but rather to point out that the situation today is part and parcel of an economy like USA.
What can US economists do?
1. Bite down any arguments about the laissez faire economy or the welfare state, since that will challenge the status quo and the almost religious acceptance of the capitalist system.
2. Persuade people that things will right themselves if other countries change their behaviour and become more like USA
3. Control resource rich countries through diplomacy and other means
Let`s see if 1,2 and 3 will work. I think they might, just because of the precedence. So far, people take everything USA dishes out.
It was simply great to read this article. Finally somebody has spoken about the charade of the `post-modern` `service-based` economy. Lies perpetuate wealth in the short term but lead to long periods of recession. The USA relies way too much on consumer sentiment to bolster the economy. The bluff is being called, but this sound bite culture is unable to appreciate the argument. The ability to standardize and sell can only go so far. Eventually control of natural resources will once again become the standard and source of wealth, I cannot see that attempts to replace that as a driver of the economy by consumption of man made things will be successful. As for outsourcing, the irony is too cute. After instituting barricades to foreign workers and protective visa restrications, the joke is that businesses just started buying skills from foreign countries and reduced the incomes and jobs of everybody inside north america, while increasing the spending power of people abroad. The foreign spending power does not translate to a rise in US exports however, because USA is too rich to be competitive...
Two values have had a huge impact on the situation today:
1. Profit maximization ( i.e., the price mechanism in a laissez faire economy (buying at the lowest price, selling at the highest) and
2. Choice
The pursuit of both goals seem to have led to a reduction in wealth and also a wider gap between stratas. The post modern economy has focused mostly on these values with a near complete exclusion of other social outcomes--except for small groups of ineffective protest so far. Efficiency is a goal for the individual enterprise but not the entire industry. It is assumed that efficiency for the single firm means efficiency fot the economic system--which is a fallacy. Nights and days can be spent on arguing this--but my purpose is not to say that a welfare or socialist state is a solution, but rather to point out that the situation today is part and parcel of an economy like USA.
What can US economists do?
1. Bite down any arguments about the laissez faire economy or the welfare state, since that will challenge the status quo and the almost religious acceptance of the capitalist system.
2. Persuade people that things will right themselves if other countries change their behaviour and become more like USA
3. Control resource rich countries through diplomacy and other means
Let`s see if 1,2 and 3 will work. I think they might, just because of the precedence. So far, people take everything USA dishes out.
#5 Posted by sac on July 2, 2003 1:38:49 pm
SR:
Hope you are doing well. An excellent analysis indeed. I have just one question for you. Does the US own any assets that may be considered ``real`` by your metrics? Feel free to include ferderal lands, forests, Mount Rushmore etc. in your estimation.
later
-sac
Hope you are doing well. An excellent analysis indeed. I have just one question for you. Does the US own any assets that may be considered ``real`` by your metrics? Feel free to include ferderal lands, forests, Mount Rushmore etc. in your estimation.
later
-sac
#3 Posted by rsaxena on July 2, 2003 1:11:03 pm
...solow uncle has answers to all these problems...we just need to look carefully...
#2 Posted by Inquirer on July 2, 2003 12:24:59 pm
I agree wih you that there is a need for slowing down of the consumption rate. But we have to be careful in distinguishing between on the one hand deliberate deprivation of masses and mountainous extravagence of the selected few and on the other the massive wastefulness of the general population.
One needs to honestly look at the achievements of US economic policies. Which country has auto workers who drive the cars they manufacture? Which country welcomes people of all nations and gives immigrants benefits that are not available to even the citizens there? Which country has enough food to experience epidemic of obesity? Which country has advanced in science as America has? Which country has unemployment benefits? Which country has welfare system even for immigrants even illegals? Which country can have Bill Gates?
I think what is needed is to conserve and promote the reuse and a gradual reduction in disposable items of economy. Larger support should be given to those who help in the cleanup of the ecosystem. Greater emphasis is needed on reduction of demands without further impoverishing the poor. The poor should be encouraged to support themselves and the society should reward those that help in others reaching self-improvement and self-sufficiency.
One needs to honestly look at the achievements of US economic policies. Which country has auto workers who drive the cars they manufacture? Which country welcomes people of all nations and gives immigrants benefits that are not available to even the citizens there? Which country has enough food to experience epidemic of obesity? Which country has advanced in science as America has? Which country has unemployment benefits? Which country has welfare system even for immigrants even illegals? Which country can have Bill Gates?
I think what is needed is to conserve and promote the reuse and a gradual reduction in disposable items of economy. Larger support should be given to those who help in the cleanup of the ecosystem. Greater emphasis is needed on reduction of demands without further impoverishing the poor. The poor should be encouraged to support themselves and the society should reward those that help in others reaching self-improvement and self-sufficiency.
#1 Posted by temporal on July 2, 2003 12:24:59 pm
Sohail:
aapki baatain humari samajh say bala haiN:)
is maiN humaray musalmaan honay ka kitna dak`l hay is ka il`m to ooper walay hee ko hay! laikin hum hisab-kitab maiN itnay bhee kamzore nahin...lehaza mundarija zail she`r kay hisab say hum 66.6666666668 % zindagani theek hee guzaar rahay haiN...baqi rahi 33.3333334...tou woh allah janay...ar`z kya hay...
fik`r-e-ma`aash, ishq-e-bootaaN, yaade-e-raft`gaaN
do din ki zindagi maiN bhala kya karay koi
...t
ps: Banjara agar she`r ghalat naq`l kya hay tou ijazat hay:)
aapki baatain humari samajh say bala haiN:)
is maiN humaray musalmaan honay ka kitna dak`l hay is ka il`m to ooper walay hee ko hay! laikin hum hisab-kitab maiN itnay bhee kamzore nahin...lehaza mundarija zail she`r kay hisab say hum 66.6666666668 % zindagani theek hee guzaar rahay haiN...baqi rahi 33.3333334...tou woh allah janay...ar`z kya hay...
fik`r-e-ma`aash, ishq-e-bootaaN, yaade-e-raft`gaaN
do din ki zindagi maiN bhala kya karay koi
...t
ps: Banjara agar she`r ghalat naq`l kya hay tou ijazat hay:)
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