Message in the Bubble Burst
tayyab rashid July 12, 2003
#27 Posted by Romair on July 13, 2003 3:11:51 pm
dost-mittar #17: First of all, I am a fellow Canadian now, and loving it. I would encourage all Pakistanis to pack their bags in the USA and head up North. I still spend most of my time in Silicon Valley though, since that is where my business is. But my family is Canadian now, and we will not be paying taxes (at least personal taxes) to Uncle Sam to go bomb every Tom, Dick and Adbul of the world. Thank God.
``I am no expert in this area but I think the good ones do require quite an expensive infrastructure,``
I have a tendency to exagerate my comments somewhat to create impact, if you haven`t noticed. But the direction of the comments is accurate. No educational institution (not even military Defence colleges or good kingergartens) is, ``easy`` to set up. I was speaking in relative terms. In relative terms software ( though not hardware) as an industry and in academia, has one of the lowest material costs in the world. The total cost is the grey matter in the person`s brain. Much like paint costs little, yet a well-painted masterpiece is worth millions. Similarly a CD physically costs Rs. 5, but the code on it can be worth millions.
Hence, the IT (software) university infrastructure does not require wind tunnels, univeristy teaching hospitals, and large machines, expensive chemicals, etc. It requires some rooms, a good LAN, some PCs (which are cheap), software systems (which US companies on many occassions give out free to universities, or is pirated by desi students) and a lot of highly-paid professers. It is these professors which are hard to, ``set-up.`` Everything else, comparitively is easy (easier....).
``As I said I am no expert in this area but I do live in Ottawa and am seeing Nortel, JDS, etc. who do precisely these things, trying to avoid going belly-up., while amazon.com seems to show promise of surviving the bubble.``
Nortel and JDS Uniphase have not gone belly-up yet. I don`t think will go belly-up. They have been completely destroyed however. The Internet needs their stuff, and someone will have to produce it - if not them. Both companies produce very good products, which form the heart of the world`s infrastructure. They have gone down, not because of what the produced, but due to extremely poor management decisions.
Haven`t looked at JDS in detail. Nortel spread itself out way too thin. It bought anything that moved and had the words, ``fibre`` or ``optical`` or ``Internet`` or ``socket`` or ``cache`` or ``VPN`` etc. written to it. The .com bubble burst and down came Nortel with a much greater bang than others. Sun Microsystems is in the same category of bad management decisions, by a company that has good products and actually owns the Java language (yet hasn`t made a penny off it). As is Exodus, owned by the once once billionaire Indian (I hope he sold his stock). All these companies build stuff/infrastructure that the world needs, yet they went down due to poor management decisions. In their cases, they could have used a good MBA on their executive teams.
But some company will always be doing what these companies do. However, I doubt there is a huge market for selling shoes and furniture online. And, as a whole, the, ``technical`` companies have been more robust in the crash than the pure e-commerce plays.
Amazon.com has started to make it. I wouldn`t say it has made it, yet. But it is an exception to the rule. If it goes under, then the e-commerce plays are completely dead. There is room for a couple of companies like that. But not a whole industry. And had the Walmarts and Barnes and Nobles of the world gotten into this area before Amazon.com, they would have won out. Jeff Bezos used to actually work for Walmart.
The only true stable successful business model I can see on the Internet e-commerce side is e-Bay. It was founded by our fellow Canadian. It is flourishing. People had considered E-bay, Yahoo, Amazon and AOL to be the survivors of the .com boom. E-bay is solid. Yahoo is on the fence (at one time it was considering buying Disney, can you imagine). I guess the Internet can have one Yahoo type company. Amazon is making its way back. And AOL is under (far more under than JDS) and has taken the robust legendary Time Warner down with it. Time Warner`s decision to merge with AOL must go down as one of the worst in the century.
So not a very impressive record for a .com boom companies that provided services. I doubt there are too many young entrepreneurs now thinking of selling books on the Internet or providing, ``you`ve got mail`` services, or setting up search portals. But there will always be entrepreneurs trying to build the newest fastest switch and router. Or developing the fastest compiler, or the newest type of datatabse, or improving the speed of the Intel compatibale chip, or desiging the best VoIP equipment, regardless of what happens to Nortel and JDS.
MBA types (I use this term losely to mean non-technical businessmen who jumped to make a quick buck on the Internet) should be assissting Engineers, as CFOs or VCs etc., they should not be the driving force behind any IT boom, i.e. they should not be CEOs of start-ups (they can become CEOs when the companies have gotten huge). The start-up boom needs to be driven by Engineers. There are always exceptions, but these should be far and few.
``I am no expert in this area but I think the good ones do require quite an expensive infrastructure,``
I have a tendency to exagerate my comments somewhat to create impact, if you haven`t noticed. But the direction of the comments is accurate. No educational institution (not even military Defence colleges or good kingergartens) is, ``easy`` to set up. I was speaking in relative terms. In relative terms software ( though not hardware) as an industry and in academia, has one of the lowest material costs in the world. The total cost is the grey matter in the person`s brain. Much like paint costs little, yet a well-painted masterpiece is worth millions. Similarly a CD physically costs Rs. 5, but the code on it can be worth millions.
Hence, the IT (software) university infrastructure does not require wind tunnels, univeristy teaching hospitals, and large machines, expensive chemicals, etc. It requires some rooms, a good LAN, some PCs (which are cheap), software systems (which US companies on many occassions give out free to universities, or is pirated by desi students) and a lot of highly-paid professers. It is these professors which are hard to, ``set-up.`` Everything else, comparitively is easy (easier....).
``As I said I am no expert in this area but I do live in Ottawa and am seeing Nortel, JDS, etc. who do precisely these things, trying to avoid going belly-up., while amazon.com seems to show promise of surviving the bubble.``
Nortel and JDS Uniphase have not gone belly-up yet. I don`t think will go belly-up. They have been completely destroyed however. The Internet needs their stuff, and someone will have to produce it - if not them. Both companies produce very good products, which form the heart of the world`s infrastructure. They have gone down, not because of what the produced, but due to extremely poor management decisions.
Haven`t looked at JDS in detail. Nortel spread itself out way too thin. It bought anything that moved and had the words, ``fibre`` or ``optical`` or ``Internet`` or ``socket`` or ``cache`` or ``VPN`` etc. written to it. The .com bubble burst and down came Nortel with a much greater bang than others. Sun Microsystems is in the same category of bad management decisions, by a company that has good products and actually owns the Java language (yet hasn`t made a penny off it). As is Exodus, owned by the once once billionaire Indian (I hope he sold his stock). All these companies build stuff/infrastructure that the world needs, yet they went down due to poor management decisions. In their cases, they could have used a good MBA on their executive teams.
But some company will always be doing what these companies do. However, I doubt there is a huge market for selling shoes and furniture online. And, as a whole, the, ``technical`` companies have been more robust in the crash than the pure e-commerce plays.
Amazon.com has started to make it. I wouldn`t say it has made it, yet. But it is an exception to the rule. If it goes under, then the e-commerce plays are completely dead. There is room for a couple of companies like that. But not a whole industry. And had the Walmarts and Barnes and Nobles of the world gotten into this area before Amazon.com, they would have won out. Jeff Bezos used to actually work for Walmart.
The only true stable successful business model I can see on the Internet e-commerce side is e-Bay. It was founded by our fellow Canadian. It is flourishing. People had considered E-bay, Yahoo, Amazon and AOL to be the survivors of the .com boom. E-bay is solid. Yahoo is on the fence (at one time it was considering buying Disney, can you imagine). I guess the Internet can have one Yahoo type company. Amazon is making its way back. And AOL is under (far more under than JDS) and has taken the robust legendary Time Warner down with it. Time Warner`s decision to merge with AOL must go down as one of the worst in the century.
So not a very impressive record for a .com boom companies that provided services. I doubt there are too many young entrepreneurs now thinking of selling books on the Internet or providing, ``you`ve got mail`` services, or setting up search portals. But there will always be entrepreneurs trying to build the newest fastest switch and router. Or developing the fastest compiler, or the newest type of datatabse, or improving the speed of the Intel compatibale chip, or desiging the best VoIP equipment, regardless of what happens to Nortel and JDS.
MBA types (I use this term losely to mean non-technical businessmen who jumped to make a quick buck on the Internet) should be assissting Engineers, as CFOs or VCs etc., they should not be the driving force behind any IT boom, i.e. they should not be CEOs of start-ups (they can become CEOs when the companies have gotten huge). The start-up boom needs to be driven by Engineers. There are always exceptions, but these should be far and few.
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#26 Posted by ruswaa on July 13, 2003 3:11:51 pm
I don`t believe Pakistan ever had a coherent software policy. The mantra a decade ago was software outsourcing. This was driven by some `big` names such as CresSoft, ITIM and (I think) Systems. Amongst these CresSoft enjoyed the biggest success in signing up atleast 2 fortunes 500 clients. Following the lead provided by PASHA and PSEB, many more companies tried there hand at `software exports`. However none have been able to match CresSoft`s initial success. All this is now being exacerbated by the downward trend in the US tech market and 9/11 (A point to note here, is that inspite of the NASDAQ woes US corps are still shifting backoffice operations and major software development to India. A concrete example I can quote here is of 3Com, who shutdown there network management division in the US and moved the projects to India).
The mantra changed in 1998, when software companies in Pakistan realized that clients were not willing to outsource major chunks of software development. Hence started the H1 / L1 phase, where companies would send employees to the US to work at the customer sites. The latest `fad` seems to be call centers. Every tom and harry (or rather Aslam and Peraiz) think they can get the US (and maybe European) companies to give them business. As things stand right now, no major foreign corporation has a call center is Pakistan. However a number of local companies and banks have either setup there own call centers or sourced it to a local company.
If I was an American or European COO of a medium/large sized corporation that wanted to outsource work to save $$$, Pakistan would be the last place I`d go to. Since `99, there has been a coup, a war in neighbouring Afghanistan, persisten troubles in Kashmir, major bomb blasts in Karachi and sectarian killings (that latest being Quetta ofcourse). What takes the cake is the latest bomb blast in Karachi. For non-Karachites, this was on Shara-e-Faisal, a major road, connecting the international airport to the `financial district`.
The potential local market in PAkistan can be quite big. Let`s take the example of local banks. Of these MCB has been the most agressive in automating it`s processes. However MCB has a small IT setup. The reason is because the banking solution was first outsourced to Unisys and then to IBM. Consultants from IBM modified the solution to fit some MCB specific requirements; the rest is out of the box. The same pattern is being repeated for Habib Bank (the largest in PK and another IBM customer), Union Bank etc. To top it all, the State Bank of Pakistan recently awarded a multi-million dollar software contract to Hyundai. Quite possibly the reason for not giving it to a local vendor was because there is no one in the local market, large enough to handle something of this size. One simply can`t have a five year old software house with a bunch of programmers and expect a bank like HBL to award you contracts.
The most Pakistani software professionals should hope for, is an upturn in the US tech market, so that they can all get H1 visas and say bye-bye to the land of the pure.
#25 Posted by Romair on July 13, 2003 3:11:51 pm
nazarhayatkhan #14: If your son is that interested in Mathematics then that is probably the right place for him. Assuming he is making an objecitve decision and not an emotional one, and understanding that wihle a Ph.D. in CS opens up the doors of every country in the world to a person, a Ph.D. in Math does not. However, good research requires two virtures, patience and passion. And one can only be a good researcher in a field in which one has passion. Which, in his case, seems to be Maths.
``I shall miss the university life all my life. All these Dergees of Staff Colleges are meaningless. (I am a BSC (Hon) & Masters in War Studies)``
A couple of points:
There is a quality I have seen in successful people: they rarely regret, complain or worry about the past. They are very proactive and solve present and future problems through action.
So, what is stopping you from continuing with your education? Why not join Arizona State, with your son?
According to what I can see, you were in the PAF when it was well-paid. You probably spent a few years on Middle East assignments, and made a small fortune. You were in the PIA as a pilot, which in my opinion, is the most lucrative job in Pakistan. You got this job due to your military training and experience. And you probably made a small fortune there. And you were part of the military generation, which unlike mine, probably got a plot or two of expensive real estate, which is worth a small fortune. And you can afford your son`s flying and education in the USA,. indicating you probably have money. All of this, you got through the military, and the military seems to have done a very good job of looking after you. In addition, the education you have is also thru the military defence colleges. It may not be great, but at least it is better than no education.
On the whole, you seem much better off financially, due to your time in the military, than people with equivalent qualifications, in your age group, who had to rough it out in the Pakistani civilian world. So I think you maybe going a bit overboard in complaining about it. You will run across mullahs and idiots and know-it-alls everywhere. Not only in the military.
Education is so valuable primarily because it is not easy to get. But, my experience has been, that those who want it bad enough, somehow or the other get it. I have colleagues, with far less money and opportunity than yourselves, who have gotten American Ph.Ds, while still serving in the military. Others have become super-surgeons, and lawyers while still in the PAF and Army. I recently met a lady from a mid to small sized town in Pakistan, who is doing a Ph.D in a North American university at around your age (assuming you are in your 50s). She has three grown up teenaged and twenty something unmarried kids and her husband is in Pakistan. Her roommate is her own daughter, who is doing a B.A in the same university.
I regularly meet with my ex-military colleagues of my age group in Silicon Valley, who had to struggle like crazy to re-educate themselves after getting out of the PAF, and Army, and did not have the advantages you or your son have. Yet all of them are very highly qualified now. I myself, at some level, had to go through this.
- The second thing is that I think you are greatly under-selling the education one gets in the Pakistan military. I wouldn`t trade it for the world. I belonged to engineering and not the command branches, and it is true that the command branches like flying, etc. are poorly educated. But I cannot think of too many Pakistani civilian institutes in Pakistan which are as good as the Army Medical College, and College of Aeronautical Engg., NUST, etc. Infact, NUST is now the best in Pakistan and one of the best in Asia.
Maybe the training gets really bad when one reaches middle management and executive level institutions, in the military, like you did. But how many executive training institutions are there in Pakistan to begin with, much less good ones. I doubt (if there are any) many of them would be any better than what is available at War Colleges or Defence Colleges.
A Masters in War Studies is not useless, for a person whose job it is to fight wars. It is only useless for a person who is not in that profession, any longer, like yourself. Just like an MA in drama studies from Harvard, would be useless for a a General comanding an Armour Corps., but not for an aspiring film maker or actor in Hollywood. And I believe all military degrees from Defence College etc. are actually from civilian universities like Quaid-e-Azam and NED etc. So these degrees can only be as good as the universities that oversee them.
I don`t think you have missed much by missing the university education in Pakistan. You are greatly over-estimating Pakistan`s civilian universities, in comparison to military institutions. I have met more than my share of graduates from these civilian universities and many of them are bigger buffoons and consider themselves bigger, ``know-it-alls`` (you will run into some on this site) than the Army folks. My ex-military colleagues who graduated from military technical colleges, as a group, are out-perfoming their Pakistani counterparts in Silicon Valley, who graduated from Pakistani civlian universities. And I would hire a graduate of a Pakistani military engineering university over one of a civilian engineering university any day. I have found the former to have more management and combined technical experience and discipline, due to military training, than those of civilian universities. The civilian group severly lacks in management and people skills. And is no better in technical skills.
The three brightest Pakistanis of my age group I have met are still in the military. This comparison includes all my Pakistani colleagues in Silicon Valley. One is in the Army Engineering Corps somewhere. The other is a professor in NUST. And the third is a PAF guy, doing research in Kahuta labs.
What you have missed out on is the international education. This is something the Generals in the command branches need it their portfolio also. This education is definitely more valuable than Defence College degrees. This is why non-command branch individuals in the Pakistan military (doctors, engineers, professors, etc.) have far broader horizons, due to their foreign education, than those in command branches.
And like I said, unless there is something severe holding you back, you still have time to get this type of a degree. Much like that lady in her 50s from the small Pakistani city, I mentioned.
``I shall miss the university life all my life. All these Dergees of Staff Colleges are meaningless. (I am a BSC (Hon) & Masters in War Studies)``
A couple of points:
There is a quality I have seen in successful people: they rarely regret, complain or worry about the past. They are very proactive and solve present and future problems through action.
So, what is stopping you from continuing with your education? Why not join Arizona State, with your son?
According to what I can see, you were in the PAF when it was well-paid. You probably spent a few years on Middle East assignments, and made a small fortune. You were in the PIA as a pilot, which in my opinion, is the most lucrative job in Pakistan. You got this job due to your military training and experience. And you probably made a small fortune there. And you were part of the military generation, which unlike mine, probably got a plot or two of expensive real estate, which is worth a small fortune. And you can afford your son`s flying and education in the USA,. indicating you probably have money. All of this, you got through the military, and the military seems to have done a very good job of looking after you. In addition, the education you have is also thru the military defence colleges. It may not be great, but at least it is better than no education.
On the whole, you seem much better off financially, due to your time in the military, than people with equivalent qualifications, in your age group, who had to rough it out in the Pakistani civilian world. So I think you maybe going a bit overboard in complaining about it. You will run across mullahs and idiots and know-it-alls everywhere. Not only in the military.
Education is so valuable primarily because it is not easy to get. But, my experience has been, that those who want it bad enough, somehow or the other get it. I have colleagues, with far less money and opportunity than yourselves, who have gotten American Ph.Ds, while still serving in the military. Others have become super-surgeons, and lawyers while still in the PAF and Army. I recently met a lady from a mid to small sized town in Pakistan, who is doing a Ph.D in a North American university at around your age (assuming you are in your 50s). She has three grown up teenaged and twenty something unmarried kids and her husband is in Pakistan. Her roommate is her own daughter, who is doing a B.A in the same university.
I regularly meet with my ex-military colleagues of my age group in Silicon Valley, who had to struggle like crazy to re-educate themselves after getting out of the PAF, and Army, and did not have the advantages you or your son have. Yet all of them are very highly qualified now. I myself, at some level, had to go through this.
- The second thing is that I think you are greatly under-selling the education one gets in the Pakistan military. I wouldn`t trade it for the world. I belonged to engineering and not the command branches, and it is true that the command branches like flying, etc. are poorly educated. But I cannot think of too many Pakistani civilian institutes in Pakistan which are as good as the Army Medical College, and College of Aeronautical Engg., NUST, etc. Infact, NUST is now the best in Pakistan and one of the best in Asia.
Maybe the training gets really bad when one reaches middle management and executive level institutions, in the military, like you did. But how many executive training institutions are there in Pakistan to begin with, much less good ones. I doubt (if there are any) many of them would be any better than what is available at War Colleges or Defence Colleges.
A Masters in War Studies is not useless, for a person whose job it is to fight wars. It is only useless for a person who is not in that profession, any longer, like yourself. Just like an MA in drama studies from Harvard, would be useless for a a General comanding an Armour Corps., but not for an aspiring film maker or actor in Hollywood. And I believe all military degrees from Defence College etc. are actually from civilian universities like Quaid-e-Azam and NED etc. So these degrees can only be as good as the universities that oversee them.
I don`t think you have missed much by missing the university education in Pakistan. You are greatly over-estimating Pakistan`s civilian universities, in comparison to military institutions. I have met more than my share of graduates from these civilian universities and many of them are bigger buffoons and consider themselves bigger, ``know-it-alls`` (you will run into some on this site) than the Army folks. My ex-military colleagues who graduated from military technical colleges, as a group, are out-perfoming their Pakistani counterparts in Silicon Valley, who graduated from Pakistani civlian universities. And I would hire a graduate of a Pakistani military engineering university over one of a civilian engineering university any day. I have found the former to have more management and combined technical experience and discipline, due to military training, than those of civilian universities. The civilian group severly lacks in management and people skills. And is no better in technical skills.
The three brightest Pakistanis of my age group I have met are still in the military. This comparison includes all my Pakistani colleagues in Silicon Valley. One is in the Army Engineering Corps somewhere. The other is a professor in NUST. And the third is a PAF guy, doing research in Kahuta labs.
What you have missed out on is the international education. This is something the Generals in the command branches need it their portfolio also. This education is definitely more valuable than Defence College degrees. This is why non-command branch individuals in the Pakistan military (doctors, engineers, professors, etc.) have far broader horizons, due to their foreign education, than those in command branches.
And like I said, unless there is something severe holding you back, you still have time to get this type of a degree. Much like that lady in her 50s from the small Pakistani city, I mentioned.
#24 Posted by hrrehman on July 13, 2003 3:11:51 pm
#21 by arjun_m on July 13, 2003 8:25am PT
Safronisation of Indian History Elicits Deafening Silence
Anyone following the developments in India would have at least heard of the attempts to rewrite history, but not many are fully aware of the magnitude and scope of the endeavor
Did you know that Jesus Christ wandered the Himalayas and drew his inspiration from Hinduism? That a Hindu named Samundragupta built the Qutb Minar, originally known as Vishnu Sthambha? That the Taj Mahal was really a Hindu Temple known as Tejo-Mahalaya (Shiva`s Palace)? That the Red Fort in Delhi was a Brahmin palace? Or that the largest Holocaust in history was perpetrated by Muslims against Hindus in India?
http://iviews.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IV0301-1828
Safronisation of Indian History Elicits Deafening Silence
Anyone following the developments in India would have at least heard of the attempts to rewrite history, but not many are fully aware of the magnitude and scope of the endeavor
Did you know that Jesus Christ wandered the Himalayas and drew his inspiration from Hinduism? That a Hindu named Samundragupta built the Qutb Minar, originally known as Vishnu Sthambha? That the Taj Mahal was really a Hindu Temple known as Tejo-Mahalaya (Shiva`s Palace)? That the Red Fort in Delhi was a Brahmin palace? Or that the largest Holocaust in history was perpetrated by Muslims against Hindus in India?
http://iviews.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IV0301-1828
#23 Posted by virtue on July 13, 2003 3:11:51 pm
#9 by nazarhayatkhan: ``But Computer science/IT are not core sciences. Like engineering.``
I think Nazar Hayat Khan`s comments show the attitude that the Pakistan nation has shown to join the ``Tech Boom``. There is a fundamental difference between IT education in Pakistan and a degree in Computer Science. Sir, an investment of 26,000 Ruppees isn`t going to magically transform your daughter into a qualified computer scientist.
Difference between IT education and CS degree:
IT -> a 6 month diploma form Mullah Jatt Institue of COMPOTTER TECHNALAGY - some of the popular ones in Pakistan include CCNA, CCNP, Web Dev. , A+, Oracle and the list goes on.
Whereas Computer Science -> Algorithms, Data Structures, Digital Hardware, Software Development, Operating Systems, Artificial Intelligence to name a few.
I think in Pakistan the emphasis was on getting alot of students trained in using proprietry software of big corporations rather than training a few in the basic concepts of CS and electrical engineering.
It is not that Pakistanis arn`t smart enough, but there are not enough quality institutions in Pakistan to provide set them on the right path. Waterloo is one of the best places in the world to get a degree in CS and it is filled with students who are originally from Pakistan.
Some of you might find this very interesting. A Pakistani uni. making it to the top ten of an International Design competition (along with some of the much hyped IIT`s).
http://www.computer.org/csidc/TopTen.htm
I think Nazar Hayat Khan`s comments show the attitude that the Pakistan nation has shown to join the ``Tech Boom``. There is a fundamental difference between IT education in Pakistan and a degree in Computer Science. Sir, an investment of 26,000 Ruppees isn`t going to magically transform your daughter into a qualified computer scientist.
Difference between IT education and CS degree:
IT -> a 6 month diploma form Mullah Jatt Institue of COMPOTTER TECHNALAGY - some of the popular ones in Pakistan include CCNA, CCNP, Web Dev. , A+, Oracle and the list goes on.
Whereas Computer Science -> Algorithms, Data Structures, Digital Hardware, Software Development, Operating Systems, Artificial Intelligence to name a few.
I think in Pakistan the emphasis was on getting alot of students trained in using proprietry software of big corporations rather than training a few in the basic concepts of CS and electrical engineering.
It is not that Pakistanis arn`t smart enough, but there are not enough quality institutions in Pakistan to provide set them on the right path. Waterloo is one of the best places in the world to get a degree in CS and it is filled with students who are originally from Pakistan.
Some of you might find this very interesting. A Pakistani uni. making it to the top ten of an International Design competition (along with some of the much hyped IIT`s).
http://www.computer.org/csidc/TopTen.htm
#22 Posted by ZahraJ on July 13, 2003 3:11:51 pm
Romair: It seems you are very passionate about the subject under discussion. I can well relate to it since I have the same tendency when it comes to certain aspects in life :) I have hardly been to the said institute`s campus thrice, despite the institute being in the vicinity of my parents` house.
In my view, information technology by itself is not going to lead Pakistan anywhere. There is a lot of focus on training in xyz solutions and stuff but unless you do not realize the implication or the impact of that solution in real industry there is no way that you are going to go anywhere. You will always be a handicap. Over the years, I have also come to the conclusion that it`s not MBA vs. Engineers or Technologists...it`s all to do with certain skill-sets that can be and should be a combination of both. Well, every one cannot get into the above mentioned fields and everyone may not have the leaning to end up in the above mentioned areas. To give an example, my sister, a lums graduate, could not stand Engg. On my end, I couldn`t comprehend her love for Econ that she plans to pursue a PhD after being with a multi-national for almost 5 years now. Same is true for my brother, majored in business and has a focus in Quantitative Econ and loves the field to death but cannot stand how the email system works. Over the years, the trend has slightly changed but the leaning has not.
On another note, I do agree with most of your points, but I disagree with your assertion on how Indians landed where they are. You are completely ignoring the point that I brought up earlier. Internal infrastructure contributes to the stability of any nation. If you are internally weak(whether you want to admit this on a public forum or not that`s besides the points) then you cannot expect yourself to do XYZ that India is doing. You should keep on moving without letting go of the root cause of all your problems.
There is a good point in arjun`s argument that India is not only marketing itself as a service provider that can provide resources at a cheaper cost but it has several other areas of expertise as well.
- Why couldn`t the think tanks, who are thinking for pretty damn long time, identify the core competence/expertise of Pakistan?
- On the same lines, why does not Pakistan get contracts for Call Center work despite the fact that many of our qualified resources can manage that particular area very well?
It`s not that people are not willing to provide quality service. It`s because those who are involved in contract negotiations stab their own nation by being hanky panky. I quoted a friend`s episode a while ago on how her organization lost the contract since Minister XYZ had a certain agenda in mind.
- I also do not believe in forming any more new institutes in Pakistan. The ones that are existing should be equipped with better facilities vs. using more land on establishing humongous(sp?) campuses. The existing institutes should be well advertised abroad by having colloborative efforts. Since many of the old institutes are government run therefore they are not put in that kind of spotlight.
- I am certainly interested in the research you have been involved in since it has certain components that are of immense interest to me due to my involvement in Vendor/Resource Management aspects. Just to mention that my focus is more industry specific vs. general programming and technology. I am still a learner when it comes to financial services since the industry and its nuances cannot be contained in one box. Both messaging (FIX, SWIFT and others) and compliance are areas where I am seriously considering to venture.
Note:
Checkout the following if you have not already done so...
1. Baseline has some great articles on Outsourcing and Offshore Vendors. Some studies around good lessons learned.
2. Wall Street and Technology - a free online subscription to learn about the trends in the Financal Services Industries. It also talks about the vendors providing services in different horizontal areas. I have some great article references that I will be more than glad to share since I also happen to dig for information and aspects that are of interest to me.
rest later....
In my view, information technology by itself is not going to lead Pakistan anywhere. There is a lot of focus on training in xyz solutions and stuff but unless you do not realize the implication or the impact of that solution in real industry there is no way that you are going to go anywhere. You will always be a handicap. Over the years, I have also come to the conclusion that it`s not MBA vs. Engineers or Technologists...it`s all to do with certain skill-sets that can be and should be a combination of both. Well, every one cannot get into the above mentioned fields and everyone may not have the leaning to end up in the above mentioned areas. To give an example, my sister, a lums graduate, could not stand Engg. On my end, I couldn`t comprehend her love for Econ that she plans to pursue a PhD after being with a multi-national for almost 5 years now. Same is true for my brother, majored in business and has a focus in Quantitative Econ and loves the field to death but cannot stand how the email system works. Over the years, the trend has slightly changed but the leaning has not.
On another note, I do agree with most of your points, but I disagree with your assertion on how Indians landed where they are. You are completely ignoring the point that I brought up earlier. Internal infrastructure contributes to the stability of any nation. If you are internally weak(whether you want to admit this on a public forum or not that`s besides the points) then you cannot expect yourself to do XYZ that India is doing. You should keep on moving without letting go of the root cause of all your problems.
There is a good point in arjun`s argument that India is not only marketing itself as a service provider that can provide resources at a cheaper cost but it has several other areas of expertise as well.
- Why couldn`t the think tanks, who are thinking for pretty damn long time, identify the core competence/expertise of Pakistan?
- On the same lines, why does not Pakistan get contracts for Call Center work despite the fact that many of our qualified resources can manage that particular area very well?
It`s not that people are not willing to provide quality service. It`s because those who are involved in contract negotiations stab their own nation by being hanky panky. I quoted a friend`s episode a while ago on how her organization lost the contract since Minister XYZ had a certain agenda in mind.
- I also do not believe in forming any more new institutes in Pakistan. The ones that are existing should be equipped with better facilities vs. using more land on establishing humongous(sp?) campuses. The existing institutes should be well advertised abroad by having colloborative efforts. Since many of the old institutes are government run therefore they are not put in that kind of spotlight.
- I am certainly interested in the research you have been involved in since it has certain components that are of immense interest to me due to my involvement in Vendor/Resource Management aspects. Just to mention that my focus is more industry specific vs. general programming and technology. I am still a learner when it comes to financial services since the industry and its nuances cannot be contained in one box. Both messaging (FIX, SWIFT and others) and compliance are areas where I am seriously considering to venture.
Note:
Checkout the following if you have not already done so...
1. Baseline has some great articles on Outsourcing and Offshore Vendors. Some studies around good lessons learned.
2. Wall Street and Technology - a free online subscription to learn about the trends in the Financal Services Industries. It also talks about the vendors providing services in different horizontal areas. I have some great article references that I will be more than glad to share since I also happen to dig for information and aspects that are of interest to me.
rest later....
#21 Posted by arjun_m on July 13, 2003 8:25:55 am
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#20 Posted by arjun_m on July 13, 2003 8:25:55 am
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#19 Posted by Romair on July 13, 2003 8:09:02 am
ZahraJ #13: No offense taken.
I have never even seen the LUMS building, much less have any knowledge of its insides. I have not seen the GIK building either. Nor have I seen the insides of any other major Engineering institution in Pakistan, other than those in the military.
I do a lot of market analysis and experience, both from a technical and business point of view, in IT, however. I have recently started doing this for the off-shore market as well. Pakistan is a tiny little dot on this market. India is a giant in this field. It almost owns the whole area. So most of my study is regarding Indian companies. I meet with reps of Tata, etc. every now and then. And I also meet with researchers from companies like Gartner, IBM etc., who follow these areas.
All this stuff is too fuzzy and subjective to get a clear handle on why certain countries are where they are in IT. But I think one can notice certain trends, by looking at countries like India, Ireland, Israel etc., which have been successful.
Pakistan needs three things:
1) If not world-level, then at least Asian level educational institutions in the IT arena. This is where everything starts. A series of PITs, if you will, much like IITs in India. I did not say, ``hundreds of institutes.`` You have put this phrase in for some reason. I only mentioned a few. Maybe four or five, or even three will do. The reason I keep mentioning LUMS, GIK, and NUST, is because these seem to be the top ones. If you know of others, kindly let me know. I regularly interview IIT grads, and every now and then end up interviewing LUMS/GIK etc. grads. The guys from these universities seem quite good. As does their faculties and facilities. However, the Pakistani universities` size is too small. Their IT departments need to be gigantic. And they need to start Ph.D programs.
``Where are those graduates going to land``
Where did the Indian graduates end up landing? Graduates with international level skills have a unique quality: They somehow or the other end up finding a place for themselves in the world, somewhere - specially if they are in hot industries like IT. Or they end up starting something themselves. Silicon Valley was a bunch of orchards, and still would be orchards, had it not been for Stanford and Berkeley grads.
2) Pakistan definitely needs to develop its local non-IT industry. That is the best way to IT growth for Pakistani IT companies. They will have first shot at local contracts. Indian off-shore companies aren`t going to let too many Pakistani companies (or Russian or Phillipino etc. companies, or even new Indian companies) get too many of the new off-shore contracts. I cannot see a Pakistani company, regardless of how good it maybe, competing against Wipro, Infosys etc. Whomever is the first in the marketplace, (like Microsoft in OS) gets a huge advantage. And Indian comapnies are the first in this area.
At the same time, Pakistan`s IT usage, even for its current local industry and market size is tiny. The biggest IT firms in Pakistan barely have double digit million dollar revenues. Even though Pakistan has some giant banks, a giant defence dept, a giant government, a huge population with more literate people than most European countries. A country with a GNI of close $70 billion, a defence budget of $3 billion, and giant banks like Habib Bank should just, within its local market, have hundreds of millions dollars of IT revenue.
If the banks and defence forces alone automate and become IT-saavy, that should be enough to accomodate a great number of these IT grads, either through straight employmet or thru their private ventures.
3) The third factor is entrepenuers. I haven`t studied the insides of all of India`s big IT companies. But like most IT companies in the world, they do seem to have the stamp on them, of a founding entrepreneur of family like Premji, Tata family, etc. Much like Microsoft would not be there had it not been for Bill Gates, and Dell has Michael Dell written all over it. If you graduate thousands of well-qualified students, three or four of them will become Premji, Dell and Gates, and will set up firms that will employ the remaining graduates.
If you graduate no one, well, then you stand nowhere. Universities is where everything starts. Not hundreds of them, just three to five very large very good ones. And a bunch of average small ones.
Whatever little experience (it is limited at the moment) I have of studying Pakistani, ``software houses,`` I have found them to be quite average or below average and very tiny. They are not in the big leagues. They are not even in the middle leagues. Five graduates from MIT, here and there, cannot create an IT boom. You need hundreds of MIT grads, out of which one may turn out to be a local Safi Qureshi. And they need support of thousands of competent local graduates, and thousands of Pakistanis abroad, who can give them contracts. They are no competition for off-shore houses like the Infosys etc. These software houses will not survive, unless Pakistan`s local industry is computerized or grows significantly.
I am strong believer in the fact that in today`s world, a well-educated, hard-working, IT graduate will not be unemployed, regardless of what happens on the NASDAQ. He/she is too valuable. And will find a place for himself/herself somewhere in the world.
Would be interested in your views...More on this later, however.....
I have never even seen the LUMS building, much less have any knowledge of its insides. I have not seen the GIK building either. Nor have I seen the insides of any other major Engineering institution in Pakistan, other than those in the military.
I do a lot of market analysis and experience, both from a technical and business point of view, in IT, however. I have recently started doing this for the off-shore market as well. Pakistan is a tiny little dot on this market. India is a giant in this field. It almost owns the whole area. So most of my study is regarding Indian companies. I meet with reps of Tata, etc. every now and then. And I also meet with researchers from companies like Gartner, IBM etc., who follow these areas.
All this stuff is too fuzzy and subjective to get a clear handle on why certain countries are where they are in IT. But I think one can notice certain trends, by looking at countries like India, Ireland, Israel etc., which have been successful.
Pakistan needs three things:
1) If not world-level, then at least Asian level educational institutions in the IT arena. This is where everything starts. A series of PITs, if you will, much like IITs in India. I did not say, ``hundreds of institutes.`` You have put this phrase in for some reason. I only mentioned a few. Maybe four or five, or even three will do. The reason I keep mentioning LUMS, GIK, and NUST, is because these seem to be the top ones. If you know of others, kindly let me know. I regularly interview IIT grads, and every now and then end up interviewing LUMS/GIK etc. grads. The guys from these universities seem quite good. As does their faculties and facilities. However, the Pakistani universities` size is too small. Their IT departments need to be gigantic. And they need to start Ph.D programs.
``Where are those graduates going to land``
Where did the Indian graduates end up landing? Graduates with international level skills have a unique quality: They somehow or the other end up finding a place for themselves in the world, somewhere - specially if they are in hot industries like IT. Or they end up starting something themselves. Silicon Valley was a bunch of orchards, and still would be orchards, had it not been for Stanford and Berkeley grads.
2) Pakistan definitely needs to develop its local non-IT industry. That is the best way to IT growth for Pakistani IT companies. They will have first shot at local contracts. Indian off-shore companies aren`t going to let too many Pakistani companies (or Russian or Phillipino etc. companies, or even new Indian companies) get too many of the new off-shore contracts. I cannot see a Pakistani company, regardless of how good it maybe, competing against Wipro, Infosys etc. Whomever is the first in the marketplace, (like Microsoft in OS) gets a huge advantage. And Indian comapnies are the first in this area.
At the same time, Pakistan`s IT usage, even for its current local industry and market size is tiny. The biggest IT firms in Pakistan barely have double digit million dollar revenues. Even though Pakistan has some giant banks, a giant defence dept, a giant government, a huge population with more literate people than most European countries. A country with a GNI of close $70 billion, a defence budget of $3 billion, and giant banks like Habib Bank should just, within its local market, have hundreds of millions dollars of IT revenue.
If the banks and defence forces alone automate and become IT-saavy, that should be enough to accomodate a great number of these IT grads, either through straight employmet or thru their private ventures.
3) The third factor is entrepenuers. I haven`t studied the insides of all of India`s big IT companies. But like most IT companies in the world, they do seem to have the stamp on them, of a founding entrepreneur of family like Premji, Tata family, etc. Much like Microsoft would not be there had it not been for Bill Gates, and Dell has Michael Dell written all over it. If you graduate thousands of well-qualified students, three or four of them will become Premji, Dell and Gates, and will set up firms that will employ the remaining graduates.
If you graduate no one, well, then you stand nowhere. Universities is where everything starts. Not hundreds of them, just three to five very large very good ones. And a bunch of average small ones.
Whatever little experience (it is limited at the moment) I have of studying Pakistani, ``software houses,`` I have found them to be quite average or below average and very tiny. They are not in the big leagues. They are not even in the middle leagues. Five graduates from MIT, here and there, cannot create an IT boom. You need hundreds of MIT grads, out of which one may turn out to be a local Safi Qureshi. And they need support of thousands of competent local graduates, and thousands of Pakistanis abroad, who can give them contracts. They are no competition for off-shore houses like the Infosys etc. These software houses will not survive, unless Pakistan`s local industry is computerized or grows significantly.
I am strong believer in the fact that in today`s world, a well-educated, hard-working, IT graduate will not be unemployed, regardless of what happens on the NASDAQ. He/she is too valuable. And will find a place for himself/herself somewhere in the world.
Would be interested in your views...More on this later, however.....
#18 Posted by hrrehman on July 13, 2003 8:09:02 am
#8 by arjun_m on July 12, 2003 3:40pm PT
JUST WHEN I TRIED TO GET OUT, YOU PULL ME BACK IN.
JUST WHEN I TRIED TO GET OUT, YOU PULL ME BACK IN.
#17 Posted by dost_mittar on July 13, 2003 8:09:01 am
Romair:
`` IT universities are very easy to set up and require little infrastructure. ``
I am no expert in this area but I think the good ones do require quite an expensive infrastructure, at least according to one or two friends who teach at IITs. Roorky engineering college has existed for almost a century but was accepted as an IIT only a couple of years ago because of the stringent requirements. In India, it is difficult to get accepted even as an REC (regional engineering college) let alone the IIT status.
``A giant website selling shoes online, started by an MBA, was never going to as robust as an IT company developing the latest routers or application servers, started by Engineers. ``
As I said I am no expert in this area but I do live in Ottawa and am seeing Nortel, JDS, etc. who do precisely these things, trying to avoid going belly-up., while amazon.com seems to show promise of surviving the bubble.
ps. Are you a fellow canadian now?
`` IT universities are very easy to set up and require little infrastructure. ``
I am no expert in this area but I think the good ones do require quite an expensive infrastructure, at least according to one or two friends who teach at IITs. Roorky engineering college has existed for almost a century but was accepted as an IIT only a couple of years ago because of the stringent requirements. In India, it is difficult to get accepted even as an REC (regional engineering college) let alone the IIT status.
``A giant website selling shoes online, started by an MBA, was never going to as robust as an IT company developing the latest routers or application servers, started by Engineers. ``
As I said I am no expert in this area but I do live in Ottawa and am seeing Nortel, JDS, etc. who do precisely these things, trying to avoid going belly-up., while amazon.com seems to show promise of surviving the bubble.
ps. Are you a fellow canadian now?
#16 Posted by arjun_m on July 13, 2003 8:09:00 am
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#15 Posted by arjun_m on July 13, 2003 8:09:00 am
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#14 Posted by ZahraJ on July 12, 2003 11:36:21 pm
Romair,
No offense intended, but you have way too much emphasis on academics. And, you seem to be real fond of LUMS. Having a lot of family and friends affiliated with the said institute at one point and time; mainly my younger sibling an alumni and my first cousin as the ex-Dean of the said institute for a good number of years, I do not disagree with your repetitive assertions. But you have been singing the same mantra for a very long time. Perhaps, you need to be a little more creative in your recommendations unless that`s something typical of the PAF walas.
To counter your argument, what is the use of hundreds of institutes when you are not establishing any new industries? Where are those graduates going to land?
Probably, it will be wiser for the Software Houses to initiate a joint collaboration with the Agricultural Department and conduct some ripples there.
No offense intended, but you have way too much emphasis on academics. And, you seem to be real fond of LUMS. Having a lot of family and friends affiliated with the said institute at one point and time; mainly my younger sibling an alumni and my first cousin as the ex-Dean of the said institute for a good number of years, I do not disagree with your repetitive assertions. But you have been singing the same mantra for a very long time. Perhaps, you need to be a little more creative in your recommendations unless that`s something typical of the PAF walas.
To counter your argument, what is the use of hundreds of institutes when you are not establishing any new industries? Where are those graduates going to land?
Probably, it will be wiser for the Software Houses to initiate a joint collaboration with the Agricultural Department and conduct some ripples there.
#13 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 12, 2003 11:36:21 pm
Romair # 10
Thanks for the advice for my son. Actually, he has his own mind. He says he enjoys maths - and is more into the self-actualization stuff. He intends to learn German and then go to Germany, the home of mathematics. His eventual aim, I think, is academia and in mathematics - core subject - queen of sciences - as he calls it.
He is a Commercial Pilot Licence holder with Instructor qualification. He left all this to get back to education.
I shall miss the university life all my life. All these Dergees of Staff Colleges are meaningless. (I am a BSC (Hon) & Masters in War Studies)
#12 Posted by SR on July 12, 2003 11:18:14 pm
Romair #10 [``...next wave of IT startup companies will be ... around 2006-2007 ... when things will really pick up again...``]
Your optimism and positive outlook is most encouraging. Now I only pray that your prediction turns out to be true.
...SR
Your optimism and positive outlook is most encouraging. Now I only pray that your prediction turns out to be true.
...SR
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