Message in the Bubble Burst

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Pakistan president`s `successful` tour to USA fetched USD three Billion. Going by that standard, forecast for IT industry, $43bn by 2006 is not bad. Thats also quite some contrast with the results Pakistan is getting in this area. High time we start building an infrastructure at MoST, IT&T Div. and HEC with the capacity to operate in the new times. At present, they get HR from the same pool of civil servants as police and railways etc. Hence no reason to believe that they will deliver anything different from police or railways etc.

Enjoy.

yours truly

tayyab rashid
Contacttayyab@yahoo.com

India`s IT market to be worth $43 bn by 2006: IDC
Agence France-Presse
Bangalore, July 30
India`s IT market was forecast by an industry monitor on Wednesday to grow 27.9 per cent annually to be worth Rs 1.96 trillion ($42.6 billion) by 2006. International Data Corp said India`s IT sector was more stable than the worldwide market and total domestic spending on information technology would grow 21 per cent every year to reach Rs 559 billion within three years.

``The last year for the information technology industry was full of
fearuncertainty and doubt and decision being taken with a great degree of
trepidation,`` said IDC India managing director, Pradeep Gupta.

``This was mainly attributed to the dot-com crash......................

Full document may be found at http://tinyurl.com/ihoz

Here is a neat web site
http://hbsworkingknowledge.hbs.edu

New Rules for IT Management


by Nicholas G. Carr

With the opportunities for gaining strategic advantage from information technology rapidly disappearing, many companies will want to take a hard look at how they invest in IT and manage their systems. As a starting point, here are three guidelines for the future:

Spend less. Studies show that the companies with the biggest IT investments rarely post the best financial results. As the commoditization of ITcontinues, the penalties for wasteful spending will only grow larger. It is getting much harder to achieve a competitive advantage through an IT investment, but it is getting much easier to put your business at a cost disadvantage.

Follow, don`t lead. Moore`s Law guarantees that the longer you wait to make an IT purchase, the more you`ll get for your money. And waiting will decrease your risk of buying something technologically flawed or doomed to rapid obsolescence. In some cases, being on the cutting edge makes sense. But those cases are becoming rarer and rarer as IT capabilities become more homogenized.

Focus on vulnerabilities, not opportunities. It`s unusual for a company to gain a competitive advantage through the distinctive use of a mature infrastructural technology, but even a brief disruption in the availability of the technology can be devastating. As corporations continue to cede control over their IT applications and networks to vendors and other third parties, the threats they face will proliferate. They need to prepare themselves for technical glitches, outages, and security breaches, shifting their attention from opportunities to vulnerabilities

Excepted from ``IT Doesn`t Matter,`` Harvard Business Review, Vol. 81, No. 5, May 2003.

Excerpts from various posts - I have read through each response and tried to develop an insighful selection, reflective of the debate so far - should be of interest especially to new visitors. Ofcourse, the article above is evolving and will become complete when read along with the comments.

Tayyab Rashid
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

#62 by soysauce on July 15, 2003 1:11pm PT
Atta UrRhman is a chemist, right? How did he get to be the IT minister?

#61 by arjun_m on July 15, 2003 11:31am PT
A must read for all IT professionals..
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/talks/HowToKeepYourJob/HTKYJ.html

#60 by adnan_rafiq on July 15, 2003 11:13am PT
After all is said and done, IT is about helping businesses cut costs. For a brief period, in the late 90s, IT was seen as a strategic asset that was actually driving the US economy and, subsequently, the world economy. Those days are over

#59 by Zakkk on July 15, 2003 10:27am PT
49: Romair, Ata Ur Rehman has been reappointed S&T Minister

#56 by ZahraJ on July 14, 2003 9:41pm PT

Human beings require peace and harmony in order to function to the best of their abilities. People do not move to the US to only start putting dollars in their pockets. They like to be in sane, safe and systematic environment with some law and order in place. ……. I am able to concentrate in a better manner on things that I need to focus on vs. considering the cab driver as a kidnapper or being waylaid.

55 by ironman on July 14, 2003 4:14pm PT
Wonder why no one mentioned it yet, but did not pakistanis create the first virus called ...(ahem)...PAKISTANI BRAIN!?

#51 by SyedAhmed on July 14, 2003 10:57am PT
….. Pakistan is poised to produce thousands of techno -donkeys instead of just ``unskilled`` donkeys ... Hopefully that will create the mulch needed to form the nucleus of a ``critical`` mass of skilled technologists ....


#50 by tahmed32 on July 14, 2003 9:59am PT
education never goes to waste.

#49 by Romair on July 14, 2003 9:59am PT
A friend of mine just pointed me to an article, in People magazine, which ranked Zia Chishti as one of the 40 most eligible bachelors in the USA, alongside Tiger Woods, Ben Affleck and others.

I met Dr. Atta on one of his US tours, and had a chance to talk to him. He seems to have things figured out quite well.


#48 by faisaluno on July 14, 2003 7:59am PT

http://www.pseb.org.pk/News/FindingOppor.cfm

Finding Opportunities in Post-9/11 Pakistan
Growing Economy Sparks Return of Capital, Expertise
Washington Post Foreign Service

LAHORE, Pakistan -- Terrorism, nuclear threats, a history of political turmoil and military rule -- when it comes to scaring off investors, Pakistan seems to have covered all the bases. Unless your name is Zia Chishti.


#47 by arjun_m on July 14, 2003 7:59am PT
#18 by Romair on July 13, 2003 8:09am PT

++
I regularly interview IIT grads, and every now and then end up interviewing LUMS/GIK etc.
++

You interview IIT grads?? ROTFLMAO...

Captain Clueless..Asking an IIT grad ``Welcome to McDonalds, may i take your order`` is a question at best..not an interview..


#45 by Faruk on July 14, 2003 7:13am PT
Romair # 37
So how much do IIT professors make and how much do LUMS & GIK professors make ?

#43 by jay on July 14, 2003 7:13am PT
The patheic romair says there are no professors for IT, what can you expect, when the madrassa graduates are the elected reps, it makes no sense for any one o study anywhere other than in madrassa.

#40 by warpster on July 13, 2003 9:53pm PT
Besides the intellectual aspect in any discipline, the social aspect is often overlooked. Networking, understanding the academic culture and values, having good mentors etc. turn out to be very critical and neglected

34 by SyedAhmed on July 13, 2003 8:05pm PT
This article is complete gibberish. - ...Ata is trying to the right thing to gear the national education policy towards science and technology-

Education in Government hands has been a disaster in Pakistan - not because Government cant manage education - but because the Pakistani Government cant manage anything. Ata ur REhman should be applauded for tryingto change a culture…{Dr. Atta IS NOT GOVERNMENT Mr. Ahmed??}
Pakistan still has a long way to go - I say more power to Ata and others like him - and damn the naysayers....

#32 by arjun_m on July 13, 2003 6:05pm PT

Zia was busy getting F-16s from America and in the process, he was willing to accept madrassahs..
Nehru was a flaming socialist commie rat....but he got US help in building the IITs.
See what i`m getting at?

28 by ZahraJ on July 13, 2003 3:11pm PT

Internal infrastructure contributes to the stability of any nation. If you are internally weak(whether you want to admit this on a public forum or not that`s besides the points) then you cannot expect yourself to do XYZ that India is doing. You should keep on moving without letting go of the root cause of all your problems.

#27 by virtue on July 13, 2003 3:11pm PT
Difference between IT education and CS degree:
IT -> a 6 month diploma form Mullah Jatt Institue of COMPOTTER TECHNALAGY - some of the popular ones in Pakistan include CCNA, CCNP, Web Dev. , A+, Oracle and the list goes on.
Whereas Computer Science -> Algorithms, Data Structures, Digital Hardware, Software Development, Operating Systems, Artificial Intelligence to name a few.

#25 by Romair on July 13, 2003 3:11pm PT
I think you are greatly under-selling the education one gets in the Pakistan military. I wouldn`t trade it for the world.

#24 by ruswaa on July 13, 2003 3:11pm PT

If I was an American or European COO of a medium/large sized corporation that wanted to outsource work to save $$$, Pakistan would be the last place I`d go to. Since `99, there has been a coup, a war in neighbouring Afghanistan, persisten troubles in Kashmir, major bomb blasts in Karachi and sectarian killings (that latest being Quetta ofcourse).

#23 by Romair on July 13, 2003 3:11pm PT
Nortel and JDS Uniphase have not gone belly-up yet. …….. They have gone down, not because of what the produced, but due to extremely poor management decisions.

#1 by ahmedmadani on July 12, 2003 1:13pm PT
I am one of those stupid persons who wasted 26000 rs to educate one of my daughter in so called IT education. I was so mesmarised that I began to dream of starting my self part time education. For 26,000 Rs. my daughter got nothing she says. They told us in beginning that she can soon be getting job in usa etc. They sold dreams. The instructors were not very educated. Few of them who were USA returned they were in recruiting rather than teaching. Its was great robbery under name of IT education and opportunity of getting jobs in usa. Its sad all Hype bu DR.Atta was Lafangebazi. A bad money robbing by USA return white collared criminal selling cruel fake dreams of usa.

In a press briefing by HEC Reprted in Dawn July 19th 2003 ( http://www.dawn.com/2003/07/19/nat13.htm ) an official source of Higher Education Commission (HEC) said ``Only three Rawalpindi-Islamabad based private sector universities have the degree-awarding status``. Criteria for establishment of private universities was outlined. For details, please see the detailed report in Dawn.

The report concludes. `` When the HEC chairman, Dr Attaur Rehman, was asked if an institution didn`t meet the above criteria in the given grace period, what would be the status of the degrees issued meanwhile, HE REMAINED QUIET. ``

Tayyab Rashid

I cannot stand forward and give praise or blame to anything which relates to human action,and human concerns on a simple view of the object,as it stands stripped of every relation,in all the nakedness and solitude of metaphysical abstraction.Circumstances (which with some gentlemen pass for nothing) give in reality to every political principle its distinguishing colour and discriminating effect.The circmstances are what render every civil and political scheme beneficial or noxious to mankind....Is it because liberty in the abstract may be classed amongst the blessings of mankind,that I am seriously to felicitate a mad-man,who has escaped from the protecting restraint and wholesome darkness of his cell,on his restoration to the enjoyment of light and liberty? Am I to congratulate a highwayman and murderer, who has broke prison, upon the recovery of his natural rights?

Correction:

The copies aren`t old. They are the latest ones that I have not even browsed through.

Thanks.

I had been meaning to share this information since it pertains to Engineering & Technology: All the students out there must look into this free subscription or sign-up for it on their website.

www.diversitycareers.com

Those who are ready to embark on their journey into practical life after completing their undergrad, must look into various companies and their requirements. It also gives an insight into what different corporations look for in the field of engineering and tech. I will be sending out a few old copies of this magazine to Samina Rizwan in Islamabad. If anyone is interested in looking into the actual magazine and its contents, they must contact Samina by the end of August.

Thanks.

There has not been a formal conclusion to this article.

Parting thoughts:

- The lesson that I have learned about professional life cycle in general is two-fold. There is no such thing known as certainty. And ``working through`` uncertainty is the most valuable experience smart human beings go through. Had everything been so smooth and stable, what would be there to learn and grow.

The following CRIMINALS have made -- the MOST WANTED list -- prepared by the US Army -- for Homicide against American Kids -- AND -- Home Invasion of Iraqi citizens:

George Bush
Donald Rumsfeld
Paul Wolfowitz
Paul Bremer

FALLUJAH, Iraq (July 16) -- The sergeant at the 2nd Battle Combat Team Headquarters pulled me aside in the corridor. ``I`ve got my own `Most Wanted` list,`` he told me.

He was referring to the deck of cards the U.S. government published, featuring Saddam Hussein, his sons and other wanted members of the former Iraqi regime.

``The aces in my deck are Paul Bremer, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush and Paul Wolfowitz,`` he said.

He was referring to the four men who are running U.S. policy here in Iraq -- the four men who are ultimately responsible for the fate of U.S. troops here.

Those four are not popular at 2nd BCT these days. It is home to 4,000 troops from the 2nd Brigade of the Army`s 3rd Infantry Division.(AP)

Forbes ranked the top A-list companies in the world in various industries. The criteria was,

``ranking of the finest large corporations in the world. We are not just measuring stock prices or profits, but, rather, the ability of a company to expand its sales and income, earning good profits that reward shareholders over the long haul.``

The list for top 8 in software in the world is interesting:

1. Adobe, 2. Infosys, 3. Intuit, 4. Microsoft, 5. Oracle, 6. SAP, 7. Symantec, 8. Wipro

Post 62:

- Musharraf was/is an army general. How did he become the president?
- Nawaz Sharif was a business man. How did he get into governance?

Adnan,

True, when we are discussing literal meaning of IT vs. CS. Acquiring a degree is one thing, application is another. I have ran into various Industrial Engineers in consulting who have been some of the best business analysts. Certain fields provide the subject-depth, but how you market your skillset and where you land up makes a significant difference.

Thanks.

Atta UrRhman is a chemist, right? How did he get to be the IT minister?

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After all is said and done, IT is about helping businesses cut costs. For a brief period, in the late 90s, IT was seen as a strategic asset that was actually driving the US economy and, subsequently, the world economy. Those days are over. IT has been relegated to its former position as a supplementary field that helps different aspects of an organization (finance, accounting, sales, marketing, etc.) to streamline their business processes with an eye toward reducing expenses and inefficiencies.

A lot of people confuse IT with Computer Science in general. While Computer Science has many applications in high-tech research, medical equipment, video games, complex financial analyses, etc., IT is focused on business alone. To that end, its not enough to churn out programmers who understand data structures, algorithms and compilers, but what is required are graduates who understand the vaste landscape of today`s corporations. This is what today`s competitive IT market values. This is also why Indian behemoths such as Tata and Infosys are so successful in luring large contracts away from similar IT shops in other countries.

Given the small number of large corporations in Pakistan, it would be absurd to expect its graduates to have exposure to such large-scale operations, unless, they are sent abroad for higher studies and practical training. The other factor that comes into play is pure economics. Today`s businesses view IT as a cost, not as a strategic asset as was the case in the late 90s. In order for businesses in Pakistan to embrace IT en masse, a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done by the major research universities and the results of their findings must be factored into government policies. Given the high rates of unemployment and cheap labor in Pakistan, it is indeed an uphill battle to convince the typical ``Seth`` to use a computer (which, thanks to WAPDA, is highly unreliable to begin with) instead of a graduate who is more than happy to slave for Rs.5000/month. IT took off in the US only after businesses were convinced that it provides a cheaper and more efficient alternative for many business activities formerly performed by humans. Emphasizing IT in Pakistan is like putting the cart before the horse. The economy has to improve first. Until business processes are defined and re-engineered, economies of scale are achieved, the benefits of operating a computer are less than its human equivalent, and businesses are sophisticated enough to utilize ``information`` feasibly, IT will be nothing more than a pipe dream and a useless ministry.

49: Romair, Ata Ur Rehman has been reappointed S&T Minister

I can feel something in the air tonight . . .

http://www.lakenet.com/~drglenn/index.htm

Hello, my name is David Glenn. For the last 9 years I have been working in the Information Technology field. My career path landed me a position working for IBM as a contractual employee. It was a great job and I actually enjoyed getting out of bed and going to work. But IBM in their infinite wisdom, decided to shed 15,000 employees in April/May of 2002. When I got laid off I was in the midst of going for a college degree in order to make myself more marketable. I incurred a massive amount of debt (well it`s massive to me). Since being laid off, and with the economy the way it is, I am unable to find work in my chosen field.

To save money, and to keep myself from becoming homeless, I moved in with my aunt and uncle who live in Two Harbors Minnesota. My aunt and uncle are both retired and my uncle is disabled from a stroke he had 13 years ago. They asked that I start clearing out the brush and thin out some of the trees that had overrun their property over the course of the last decade.

Somehow I got the idea of using the trees I was cutting down to grow shiitake mushrooms. So I invested all of what was left (not much after the stock market crashed) of my 401K. So far I have raised a few shiitakes.

Here`s a few pictures of my endeavors so far . . . etcetc

Syed Ahmed:

I read your post twice and each time I was not sure on the tone of your post. I inferred from your post that you are opposed to technology focused institutes since they do not necessarily produced well rounded students and are only providing quick and dirty solutions. So, here are a few pointers:

- You cannot push students to pursue an area that they are least inclined towards. All the more reason those who are bent upon getting into Engineering or Sciences should have entry tests and interviews to determine their level of interest.

- Secondly, the ones who are not able to clear the test and interview should not be made to feel bad and left out. They should be routed or mentored towards other fields that are of interest to them. An area where a lot can be done is to provide guidance and options to students who do not want to land into engineering, business administration, commerce, medicine, law, and technology. For the above-mentioned categories, you do require a certain set of mentors, but the category is different from those who do not fall under the above.

- Obviously, when you start putting all the emphasis on your business students and technologists, the others will feel left out. What will they do? Join some madrissa or a jehadi camp. Now, is it fair to expect Dr. Ata to take those youngsters out of those camps ? I do not think so. But all the more reason, I strongly feel that you cannot determine the interest of the masses by the gait of your cream of the crop. You need to pick some samples from different economic strata. Pick the best students from villages, towns, small cities and big cities. Just meeting Zia Chishti or Safi Qureshi and following word by word what they suggest is neither the solution nor the end result. It`s just an approach.

- In my very strong opinion, people need to have options in life. Some are ambitious enough that they create those options themselves whereas others need assistance or guidance to learn how to explore those options. Each university and college must have a career development center & all the students must be asked to work in the field for a year or so during their F.A./F.Sc. year to gather some practical sense.

- We must not forget that for solid education, you do need an environment at home as well. Most of the times, it`s an observation that educated parents want their kids to do better. Not to say that uneducated parents do not want their children to do well, but in those cases, it`s a lot on the kids to strive hard and harder with little or no guidance from their parents. Again, I will go back to my point that I have repeated millions of times on Chowk that unless there is harmony in your social infrastructure, you will continue to have disoriented youth. Do you think people who get murdered and brutally wiped off have no families and kids ? Do you also remember that in one of the human rights` violation episodes in Multan, the victim desired to have a school built in her area ? What does that say ? The government needs to slightly change its strategy. It should reach out to the smallest areas in each province and get the 10-20 best students selected. Mentor those students in select fields and help them achieve their end point. People in the big cities have quite a few amenities to avail, whereas those who are far from the basic amenities need to be the ones to grow.

- On the same lines, each professor in a university/college should have 5-10 mentees.

- I have slightly diverted your concerns but I have not ignored them. Human beings require peace and harmony in order to function to the best of their abilities. People do not move to the US to only start putting dollars in their pockets. They like to be in sane, safe and systematic environment with some law and order in place. Being a woman, I have traveled so many times at wee hour for work both driving and flying from one place to another without a second thought except for being cautious. I am able to concentrate in a better manner on things that I need to focus on vs. considering the cab driver as a kidnapper or being waylaid. Hope I make sense.

- Now, rather than sitting and waiting for external contracts, if the Software Houses can assist the law and order agencies in putting together a robust infrastructure for the highways or the toll booths or the by passes and stuff that will be creativity. But to your point, since these students happen to have quick and dirty solutions under their belts vs. being able to see a broader and deeper picture therefore indeed they have their challenges.

More random pointers and thoughts will follow later....

Message in the Bubble Burst of Bush`s Believability is that --

the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES -- IS A MURDEROUS LIAR AND A PETTY THIEF –

WHO DESTROYED THE LIVES OF SO MANY AMERICAN FAMILIES – AND STOLE THEIR TAX DOLLARS TO FINANCE HIS DESPICABLE FAMILY’S WAR

Wonder why no one mentioned it yet, but did not pakistanis create the first virus called ...(ahem)...PAKISTANI BRAIN!?

re: arjun_m

calm down dude

Incidentally: If anyone here knows of anyone based in Islamabad/Rawalpindi or Lahore who is proficient in VisualBasic applications interfacing with either MS Access (Jet) as well as Oracle DBMS, I would be obliged if you could provide me contact info (email/phone). Thanks.

Re:36

Ms Zahra,

You are absolutely right on the mark. My comments were indeed a hyperbole... My outlandish style not withstanding... - education policy in Pakistan and primary in Science and technology has been a dismal failure for two reasons ( IMHO) -

Pakistan lacks a creative ``academic culture`` - public Universities are too politicized - and private universities are too busy following a core rigid curriculum which provides a steady supply of ``blue-blood`` operational- ``not creative`` managers to feed the local demand.

Forget Pakistan - lets look at the Pakistani Technical professional in the US - hopefully the cream of the crop - Having lived in the valley for a couple of years I can attest to it -

The majority of successful Pakistanis in the local industries here are the Savvy Sales/Marketing types..

One rarely comes across a Pakistani with strong fundamental engineering skills.... One can attend the local Pakistani networking group to see the difference ....- you can see a lot schmoozing sales types - one trying to out do the other . If one was to hold a rigorous technical standard as a prerequisite to membership - barely 2-3 dozen will qualify ......
Pakistanis are conspicuously absent in any of the Technical conferences be it IEEE, ICCAD, DAC etc etc ......- given the fact that there are at least a couple of thousand in the US...


Contrast that with the Indians ... - the majority of Indians in the valley have exceptionally strong technical backgrounds - with clearly defined tangible skills....- who eventually develop the soft skills required for entrepreneurial activity .... Therein lies the problem....

The basic school level curriculum in mathematics and sciences in Pakistan is quite weak... There are no challenger schools - so the rudiments of science and math are just not there - nor is there a culture of creativity - Contrast that with the Indians where academics are ``sincerely respected`` .... In Pakistan it is - and always will be about money ........- that is what defines the ``academic`` culture

---

Consequently to correlate the two - academia in Pakistan must be incentivized to be creative....

In many respects Pakistan is like Bihar in India... - the culture is remarkably similar ....

It can be further evidenced by the number of technical papers being published in Pakistani academia - The only EE papers that I saw from Pakistan were from a Professor at Punjab University in Lahore

---

Contrast that with the scores of papers being published from China, India - and now even schools in Malaysia & Singapore .....


Does that imply that there is no talent in Pakistan - certainly not - There are many creative people in Pakistan who lack the avenues to succeed where ability is often a liability. I happened to meet a couple of FAST graduates in Karachi - who were just as bright - but who lacked the right mentoring.

Ata ur Rehman cannot do everything - he has done two things which are absolutely essential - He has decentralized education - and attempted to incentivize science and technology if purely on the merits of ``voodoo`` techno-economics. It is not easy to reform the “paindoo” mindset – unless he sees the proverbial “pot of gold” at the end of the rainbow.


Thus Pakistan is poised to produce thousands of techno -donkeys instead of just ``unskilled`` donkeys ... Hopefully that will create the mulch needed to form the nucleus of a ``critical`` mass of skilled technologists ....

HHRehman:

``Did you know that Jesus Christ wandered the Himalayas and drew his inspiration from Hinduism? That a Hindu named Samundragupta built the Qutb Minar, originally known as Vishnu Sthambha? That the Taj Mahal was really a Hindu Temple known as Tejo-Mahalaya (Shiva`s Palace)? That the Red Fort in Delhi was a Brahmin palace? Or that the largest Holocaust in history was perpetrated by Muslims against Hindus in India? ``

WOW!! I didn`t even know so many facts about my own country. Thank you for enlightening me O Great HHRehman. How generous of you to acknowledge all these things.

faisulono #40: A friend of mine just pointed me to an article, in People magazine, which ranked Zia Chishti as one of the 40 most eligible bachelors in the USA, alongside Tiger Woods, Ben Affleck and others.

I met Dr. Atta on one of his US tours, and had a chance to talk to him. He seems to have things figured out quite well. However, he cannot do much without the other pre-requisites.

Also, now that Pakistan is enjoying the fruits of democracy, the IT minister is the son of Leghari, who recently graduated from a US university, with a degree in political science or something. He probably couldn`t get a job as an entry level web-designer in a company. However, due to his feudal backing, he is the Minster of IT. Dr. Atta probably wouldn`t accept him as a university candidate. I certainly wouldn`t.

During Nawaz Sharif`s time, the miniser of S&T was Abida Hussain, another feudal with just a high school education. As if these feudals have ruined enough things in Pakistan, now they are after IT. Why not give the feudal guy some useless ministry? Why IT, which is going to the driving force for economies? And then people wonder why Pakistan cannot progress in IT.

People can say whatever they may about Musharraf, but one thing stands out: He appointed the right person (Dr. Atta) as the head of S&T. And he gave him far more power and budget than any previous govt.

Tayyab: It is true that the dotcom bust has left without jobs many young people who attended one of the zillion IT training institutes that cropped up in Pakistan in the late 1990`s. However, education never goes to waste. Thus: these people have picked up the concept of improving their lot in life, and that is the first and perhaps the most important step towards a better life.

They have also picked up some analytical skills, even if the specific knowledge of programming languages may never be used by them in future. Given these two factors - a belief in improving one`s lot in life, and analytical ability - I have no doubt that most of these young people will ultimately end up making something of themselves.

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thankfully, zia chisti did not listen to the naysayers. that might be because he has some american blood flowing through his veins. and in the process of doing some good, he actually made some cash. and to his credit, when company decided to shut up shop in pak after sep 11, zia quit and started another venture. and this time, he was able to tap paki financial markets.

one of the harvard mba`s mentioned in the article is a friend of mine. and he only has good things to say about assistance offered by dr. atta and his dept as well the quality of workers he has been able to hire. and is`nt it amazing that for a country that causes us so much grief, so many people are still willing to give it all up to try and make a difference. and all my econ and finance text books said that humans are not suppose to behave like this. amazing.

http://www.pseb.org.pk/News/FindingOppor.cfm

Finding Opportunities in Post-9/11 Pakistan
Growing Economy Sparks Return of Capital, Expertise
Washington Post Foreign Service

LAHORE, Pakistan -- Terrorism, nuclear threats, a history of political turmoil and military rule -- when it comes to scaring off investors, Pakistan seems to have covered all the bases. Unless your name is Zia Chishti.

A U.S.-born Pakistani American entrepreneur who made a fortune in Silicon Valley while barely out of Stanford Business School, Chishti, 31, is now devoting his energies to building a new call-center company here that provides telephone services -- such as taking orders for merchandise -- for businesses in the United States.

So far, the bet is paying off. Operating from a seventh-floor office in this ragged, energetic city of 5 million people in Pakistan`s Punjab region, the company uses satellite and fiber-optics technology to handle customer calls for about 50 U.S.-based clients, including a major newspaper and a toy company. (Chishti asked that the clients not be named, citing confidentiality agreements.) Chishti`s call-center company, the first of its kind in Pakistan, employs about 150 people and is soon to be listed on the Karachi stock exchange.

``I`ve always had this glimmer in my eye about looking for opportunities back here,`` said Chishti, who wears his hair in a ponytail and divides his time between Lahore and Sunnyvale, Calif. ``The business opportunity here, in my view, is unparalleled.``

_ _ _``He attended the Lahore American School, then went on to Columbia University in New York, where he studied computer science and economics. After several years in investment banking, he attended business school at Stanford, where he developed an idea for a new product: clear-plastic teeth straightening devices.

Operating out of his dorm room, he founded a company, Invisalign, to manufacture the devices -- a process that relies heavily on three-dimensional computer modeling. To save labor costs, Chishti ``outsourced`` the modeling to Lahore, where he hired workers based partly on their ability to play the computer game Doom. The company went public and soon had annual revenue approaching $100 million.

Then came Sept. 11, 2001. Panicked at the idea of staying on in the country, the company`s board insisted -- over Chishti`s strenuous objections -- on moving the Lahore operation to Costa Rica. Chishti, who has since left Invisalign, described the pullout as ``a horrible business decision`` that left him with ``a flaming ash-heap situation`` in Lahore.

But out of the ashes has emerged a new company, the Resource Group, which Chishti and several Pakistanis -- two of them Harvard Business School graduates -- founded with $10 million in home-grown capital. (Chishti contributed $1.5 million.) To get things started, they acquired a controlling interest in a Los Angeles call-center company, Alert Communications, and began handling some of its clients through the same facilities previously used by Invisalign.

Such call centers are already a huge business in India, and Chishti`s company follows the same approach. Its employees are coached to speak slowly and to identify themselves with names like ``Bob`` and ``Elizabeth`` to put American customers at ease.

Describing himself as a cultural straddler who is equally at home in Pakistan or California, where he likes to watch ``The Simpsons`` and ski at Lake Tahoe, Chishti insists that his investment in Pakistan`s future is premised on sound business judgments. But he admits that personal factors also have come into play. ``It`s just kind of a salmon instinct,`` he said. ``You`re swimming upstream to where you started.``

By John Lancaster
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, February 17, 2003; Page A27

Fundamentals,

The ducated pakistanis are talking about why cant they develop IT. The fact is that in the last 50 years, pakistanis have not done anything of significance, even by pak standards.

The have no industry, no railways, no communication system, no health service, they even never had a consistant government. The military which accounted for so much of their resources has only three defetas and the worlds largest surrender of troops to show for.

Pakistan is a nation of loosers and the reson is not very hard to find. Pakistan was not created through a popular movement, it was done by one man fighting through typewriter, and has more to do with british eagerness to leave a trail of distruction in their wake.

There are no freedom fighters in pakistan, there is no one who fought for pakistan, it is a nation without heros, a nation without role models.

That is the very reason why pakistanis has to create heros and they were abdalis and gaznavis. These heros have guided the young, to the killing field of afghanistan, chehniya and kashmir.

Marassas are the only significant contribution of pakistan, and it is in tune with its creation. It is a nation guided by one book, what does information technology mean in the context.

The patheic romair says there are no professors for IT, what can you expect, when the madrassa graduates are the elected reps, it makes no sense for any one o study anywhere other than in madrassa.

It is pathetic to see the romairs and SRs of pakistn discussing IT, completely oblivious of the historical reality of pakistan.

REDefining IT

There is hope for romair, there is evidence that pakistan is emerging as a power in IT. The very education system in pakistan is giving it the advantage. There are thousands of pakistanis, recignised as experts in the field. How the microsoftas and lucents are making a beeline to india, similar IT organisation have braches and training facitlities in pakistan.
Pakistan is recognised the world ever, and some of the leading lights of IT, the equivalenys of murthy and premji are in pakistan. Yes romair, it is IT, it is International Terrorism.

Romair # 37


“I looked at the salaries of IIT professors, and they were lower than those of LUMS and GIK faculty. Yet Pakistani IT universities are always short of professors, since there are so few to begin with.”

So how much do IIT professors make and how much do LUMS & GIK professors make ?


I know a professorship at IIT is a very prized position. I know of two guys who were in the Phd. program at Stanford while I was doing my undergrad. The jumped at Faculty positions at IIT their alma maters. Is that the case with the Pakistani university’s you mention?


Regards,

Faruk

nazar sahib:

congrats on raising a mathematician. as a failed mathematician myself, i can tell you that it is one of the hardest things in the world. and you have to be able to compete with some of the smartest people in the world to win scholarship to a program in a major u.s. university. hopefully later on, your son will feel inspired enough to return and do some good for the country.

faisal

warpster # 40

Thanks. He is quite crazy and gets after a thing once he decides - 200% devotion/day & night.

He says that tuition will be free, $1200/month stipend for PHD. He has lined up the Math Dept in his university for it. I don`t mind if he keeps studying for next 5-10 years if I am not footing the bill.

#38

If your son can get admission with support in a good graduate school math program, more power to him. Note that in almost any other field there are problems and research that have a huge math component (theoretical CS is math).

Besides the intellectual aspect in any discipline, the social aspect is often overlooked. Networking, understanding the academic culture and values, having good mentors etc. turn out to be very critical and neglected (I speak from experience). They can help him see as he would be 5 years or 10 years from now. More than at any other time, science is collaborative in nature.. not a lone wolf kind of thing.. It can make it more fun too.

Nowadays, with the easy access to knowledge in various forms, more is possible. We are only limited by time, energy and ability.

Romair#23
First, let me extend an ``official`` binevenue-au-Canada to you! As you say, you are not the only one who has come to Canada in the aftermath of 9-11.
Regarding the expense of an IT, are you sure you are not mixing IT with computer science departments in universities? I think what you say applies to the latter but not the former. As for software teaching, even private sector enters into it and makes profits with very little investment. In India, companies like NITT and Aptech have made quite a name for themselves not only in the country but also abroad. They have opened institutes in every mohalla and have opened their branches even in Bangladesh and other countries. They would certainly do so in Pakistan too if allowed to do so and without any cost to the Pakistani govt.
As for outsourcing to Pakistan, I think that it would be quite a challenge, given the current association of the Pakistani image with jehadis. I think that the best course for Pakistan right now would be to let/entice Indian companies with such contracts to set up branches in Pakistan too.
As regards Nortel and JDS, I think that you are right about Nortel but not JDS-Uniphase. Nortel is involved mostly in cutting edge research and development; JDS on the other hand is more into manufacturing involving unskilled and semi-skilled work. They have severely curtailed their operations in Ottawa and have moved them to China while consolidating the remaining research work at their San Jose office. Their fortunes, though, are tied to those of Nortel, Alcatel, Cisco, Lucent, etc. to who are the main buyers of their equipment. As a true patriot, I am invested in both.:-)

SR #12: ``Your optimism and positive outlook is most encouraging. Now I only pray that your prediction turns out to be true.``

06-07 will be the rise of the sleeping giant of IT. So keep the faith.

Then again, by that time my Chinese lessons should be complete. And if the giant keeps sleeping, I might be off to Beijing. I always liked Chinese food and the airline ticket to Pakistan is cheaper form there.

Post 34:

Your sweeping statement in regarding the article as complete gibberish can be seen as a defensive measure vs. being open to reading another perspective. The author has not anywhere stated that his views should be considered as holy words and recited day in and day out. Pakistanis all over the world may have a completely different take on education, its practical use & the results. What are you going to do there? Place everyone in the category of entertaining gibberish?

To your point, many new steps and their implementation should be indeed applauded and it`s not fair to expect overnight results.

However, quality education should open new doors for industry development. Otherwise, what are you going to do with your qualified scientists and technologists? Put them on exhibition in Taxila Musuem or hide them under cover to become Nobel Laureates?

Points to ponder!

ZahraJ #33: I don`t know the internals of Pakistani civilian engg. universities. However, I do meet a lot of Pakistanis in IT here. I evaluate candidates for my clients from every corner of the world. Rest assured Pakistanis here are as good as any in the world at an individual level. While I may not know much about many things I discuss on Chowk, this is one thing I do know about.

Most of them actually come out of the NEDs and UETs (and not the LUMS etc.) and they actually make fun of their own universities. Yet all of them have MS degrees and I would put them up against anyone from any country working in the USA. The problem is that it is mostly due to their own talent. The only universities I have heard good things about are GIK, LUMS and NUST.

Pakistan needs to forget about IT booms. One needs to learn to walk, before running. Pakistan is many levels away from a boom. The first and foremost (and really only, in my opinion) thing for a software boom is well-trained people, working in one`s country. Its good to have quite a few abroad also. But everyone cannot be abroad.

To get these people, you need universities locally. Very big ones and very good ones. I secretely wish Aga Khan had built an IT university instead of a Medical College. There are plenty of decent medical colleges already in Pakistan.

To build universities you need intelligent hard-working students (which Pakistan has) and you need professors (which Pakistan does not have, at all). How many CS Ph.Ds are there in Pakistan. I doubt more than 40. That is enough for the faculty of one good sized IT dept in a university. Compare this to the number of FRCS and MDs in Pakistan.

So, Pakistan needs to first concentrate on getting these professors home from abroad. The only way to do it is to offer huge salaries, and a good working environment. LUMS has been successful in doing that. GIK was initially successful. These guys should train so many local potential Ph.Ds. that even after they leave for greener pastures abroad, there are enough left in Pakistan. Much like what happens in India.

I looked at the salaries of IIT professors, and they were lower than those of LUMS and GIK faculty. Yet Pakistani IT universities are always short of professors, since there are so few to begin with.

If Pakistan cannot do this, then it is pointless to discuss the later stages of an IT boom.

Virtue # 27

Thanks for clarifying difference between CS & IT. I am novice in this field.

We were discussing the issue in a different context. My son who was doing CS at Arizona State University recently revealed close to his final semester that he swtitched to Majoring in Mathematics - and on to doing PHD because he felt Maths was the queen of sciences.

Thanks for your clarification.

Romair # 26

Thanks for your long post and motivating me to meet my lost goals. At times, during a discussion, one is compelled to make a harsher statement. I have nothing against Air Force. It was OK when blood was hot and aircraft was a toy. But you will agree that Military is a very basic profession like cobbler, goldsmith, carpenter. It requires little mental inputs.
Too much of mental inputs puts the entire system in jeapordy. So in a little senior position, if you have a bit of mental creativity and a bit of intellectual honesty or a habit of free thinking, it becomes quite a torture. But I have no cribs.

Flying in PIA gave me a great pleasure - free travel all over, interacting with all kinds of people all over the world and then writing on the travels - in some odd way this gave me a bit of self-actualization. Once I leave my present job, I will fully get into writing.
We will pick it up some time later.

You left in time and in my opinion have lead a more fulfilling and a creative life than possible in military. It is just that there is more patriotism and institutional loyalty at the stage you left. It could be me.

This article is complete gibberish. - National Education policy cannot be micromanaged by short term fluctuations in industries and/or markets... Ata is trying to the right thing to gear the national education policy towards science and technology- and he correctly highlighting the defciencies of a ``quality`` education. The author of this piece confuses ``quality `` education with a vocational education.... - They are not necessarily the same....

In a culture - where the ``tangibles`` are sacrificed at the alter of supficialities... education is hardly an exception. Education in Government hands has been a disaster in Pakistan - not because Government cant manage education - but because the Pakistani Government cant manage anything. Ata ur REhman should be applauded for tryingto change a culture which is somewhere between Lucy and the Cro-magnon Man...

The Educational institutions -primariy at the professional and Graduate level should become completely autonomous with complete local jurisdiction - so that that the orangutans tha run the Govt donot have the means to intefere in the institutions...

Education policy or for that matter any Macro level policy does not bear fruit in 5-10 years - It will take a generation or more to see tangible results.... MOreover it is not Education alone that determines prosperity - there are several other factors such as political/economic stabilty, a good legal system etc etc before foreign investment starts pouring in ....

When the IIT`s were established in the 50`s in INdia - the quality of their education was not the same as it is today - It took close to 25 years before the IIT`s hit it right and the graduates in the 70`s started competing on an international scale...

Pakistan still has a long way to go - I say more power to Ata and others like him - and damn the naysayers....

Romair,

On Pakistani Institutes: I doubt that there is any thought behind the institutes adding to the success of the country`s infrastructure. And, I am talking about the Engineering Universities. The intent is mostly to fulfil the requirements of the internal audience. It`s not about how the internal recipients of that education will represent the country externally. I also think that comparing any Pakistani Engineering University to IIT is comparing apples to oranges. Most of the old institutes have hardworking and good faculty, but they are not out there to market their graduates or their program and stuff.

Majority in the system is so involved in the daily operations that there is no insight to assign a special task force for each Engg. University to look into facilitating the path of career opportunities for their students. Probably, I am drawing a bleaker picture but I doubt if it is otherwise. I am certainly open to correction.

Thanks.

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Romair,

Your back ground confuses me. I have the contradictory impressions of your status in this country. Variously, your were manager in Mcdonald, you had to leave for Canada, because of your status and now you are in position to hire IIT graduates and make evaluation, which only a very senior manager or or a VP would make.

Would you please clarify.

arjun_m # 21

I couldn`t agree with you more. We begin teaching our children hate from the very beginning, I believe it is true in the Indian school texts as well.

Here, at times, the history books change even with the change of government. Bhutto keeps changing his role - hero vs villian.

The latest crazy thing is some administrator in Punjab university wanted to strike out unislamic words from the famous books of other authors - words like rape!

Romair # 18

Good enlightening post.

dost-mittar #17: First of all, I am a fellow Canadian now, and loving it. I would encourage all Pakistanis to pack their bags in the USA and head up North. I still spend most of my time in Silicon Valley though, since that is where my business is. But my family is Canadian now, and we will not be paying taxes (at least personal taxes) to Uncle Sam to go bomb every Tom, Dick and Adbul of the world. Thank God.

``I am no expert in this area but I think the good ones do require quite an expensive infrastructure,``

I have a tendency to exagerate my comments somewhat to create impact, if you haven`t noticed. But the direction of the comments is accurate. No educational institution (not even military Defence colleges or good kingergartens) is, ``easy`` to set up. I was speaking in relative terms. In relative terms software ( though not hardware) as an industry and in academia, has one of the lowest material costs in the world. The total cost is the grey matter in the person`s brain. Much like paint costs little, yet a well-painted masterpiece is worth millions. Similarly a CD physically costs Rs. 5, but the code on it can be worth millions.

Hence, the IT (software) university infrastructure does not require wind tunnels, univeristy teaching hospitals, and large machines, expensive chemicals, etc. It requires some rooms, a good LAN, some PCs (which are cheap), software systems (which US companies on many occassions give out free to universities, or is pirated by desi students) and a lot of highly-paid professers. It is these professors which are hard to, ``set-up.`` Everything else, comparitively is easy (easier....).

``As I said I am no expert in this area but I do live in Ottawa and am seeing Nortel, JDS, etc. who do precisely these things, trying to avoid going belly-up., while amazon.com seems to show promise of surviving the bubble.``

Nortel and JDS Uniphase have not gone belly-up yet. I don`t think will go belly-up. They have been completely destroyed however. The Internet needs their stuff, and someone will have to produce it - if not them. Both companies produce very good products, which form the heart of the world`s infrastructure. They have gone down, not because of what the produced, but due to extremely poor management decisions.

Haven`t looked at JDS in detail. Nortel spread itself out way too thin. It bought anything that moved and had the words, ``fibre`` or ``optical`` or ``Internet`` or ``socket`` or ``cache`` or ``VPN`` etc. written to it. The .com bubble burst and down came Nortel with a much greater bang than others. Sun Microsystems is in the same category of bad management decisions, by a company that has good products and actually owns the Java language (yet hasn`t made a penny off it). As is Exodus, owned by the once once billionaire Indian (I hope he sold his stock). All these companies build stuff/infrastructure that the world needs, yet they went down due to poor management decisions. In their cases, they could have used a good MBA on their executive teams.

But some company will always be doing what these companies do. However, I doubt there is a huge market for selling shoes and furniture online. And, as a whole, the, ``technical`` companies have been more robust in the crash than the pure e-commerce plays.

Amazon.com has started to make it. I wouldn`t say it has made it, yet. But it is an exception to the rule. If it goes under, then the e-commerce plays are completely dead. There is room for a couple of companies like that. But not a whole industry. And had the Walmarts and Barnes and Nobles of the world gotten into this area before Amazon.com, they would have won out. Jeff Bezos used to actually work for Walmart.

The only true stable successful business model I can see on the Internet e-commerce side is e-Bay. It was founded by our fellow Canadian. It is flourishing. People had considered E-bay, Yahoo, Amazon and AOL to be the survivors of the .com boom. E-bay is solid. Yahoo is on the fence (at one time it was considering buying Disney, can you imagine). I guess the Internet can have one Yahoo type company. Amazon is making its way back. And AOL is under (far more under than JDS) and has taken the robust legendary Time Warner down with it. Time Warner`s decision to merge with AOL must go down as one of the worst in the century.

So not a very impressive record for a .com boom companies that provided services. I doubt there are too many young entrepreneurs now thinking of selling books on the Internet or providing, ``you`ve got mail`` services, or setting up search portals. But there will always be entrepreneurs trying to build the newest fastest switch and router. Or developing the fastest compiler, or the newest type of datatabse, or improving the speed of the Intel compatibale chip, or desiging the best VoIP equipment, regardless of what happens to Nortel and JDS.

MBA types (I use this term losely to mean non-technical businessmen who jumped to make a quick buck on the Internet) should be assissting Engineers, as CFOs or VCs etc., they should not be the driving force behind any IT boom, i.e. they should not be CEOs of start-ups (they can become CEOs when the companies have gotten huge). The start-up boom needs to be driven by Engineers. There are always exceptions, but these should be far and few.

I don`t believe Pakistan ever had a coherent software policy. The mantra a decade ago was software outsourcing. This was driven by some `big` names such as CresSoft, ITIM and (I think) Systems. Amongst these CresSoft enjoyed the biggest success in signing up atleast 2 fortunes 500 clients. Following the lead provided by PASHA and PSEB, many more companies tried there hand at `software exports`. However none have been able to match CresSoft`s initial success. All this is now being exacerbated by the downward trend in the US tech market and 9/11 (A point to note here, is that inspite of the NASDAQ woes US corps are still shifting backoffice operations and major software development to India. A concrete example I can quote here is of 3Com, who shutdown there network management division in the US and moved the projects to India).

The mantra changed in 1998, when software companies in Pakistan realized that clients were not willing to outsource major chunks of software development. Hence started the H1 / L1 phase, where companies would send employees to the US to work at the customer sites. The latest `fad` seems to be call centers. Every tom and harry (or rather Aslam and Peraiz) think they can get the US (and maybe European) companies to give them business. As things stand right now, no major foreign corporation has a call center is Pakistan. However a number of local companies and banks have either setup there own call centers or sourced it to a local company.

If I was an American or European COO of a medium/large sized corporation that wanted to outsource work to save $$$, Pakistan would be the last place I`d go to. Since `99, there has been a coup, a war in neighbouring Afghanistan, persisten troubles in Kashmir, major bomb blasts in Karachi and sectarian killings (that latest being Quetta ofcourse). What takes the cake is the latest bomb blast in Karachi. For non-Karachites, this was on Shara-e-Faisal, a major road, connecting the international airport to the `financial district`.

The potential local market in PAkistan can be quite big. Let`s take the example of local banks. Of these MCB has been the most agressive in automating it`s processes. However MCB has a small IT setup. The reason is because the banking solution was first outsourced to Unisys and then to IBM. Consultants from IBM modified the solution to fit some MCB specific requirements; the rest is out of the box. The same pattern is being repeated for Habib Bank (the largest in PK and another IBM customer), Union Bank etc. To top it all, the State Bank of Pakistan recently awarded a multi-million dollar software contract to Hyundai. Quite possibly the reason for not giving it to a local vendor was because there is no one in the local market, large enough to handle something of this size. One simply can`t have a five year old software house with a bunch of programmers and expect a bank like HBL to award you contracts.

The most Pakistani software professionals should hope for, is an upturn in the US tech market, so that they can all get H1 visas and say bye-bye to the land of the pure.

nazarhayatkhan #14: If your son is that interested in Mathematics then that is probably the right place for him. Assuming he is making an objecitve decision and not an emotional one, and understanding that wihle a Ph.D. in CS opens up the doors of every country in the world to a person, a Ph.D. in Math does not. However, good research requires two virtures, patience and passion. And one can only be a good researcher in a field in which one has passion. Which, in his case, seems to be Maths.

``I shall miss the university life all my life. All these Dergees of Staff Colleges are meaningless. (I am a BSC (Hon) & Masters in War Studies)``

A couple of points:

There is a quality I have seen in successful people: they rarely regret, complain or worry about the past. They are very proactive and solve present and future problems through action.

So, what is stopping you from continuing with your education? Why not join Arizona State, with your son?

According to what I can see, you were in the PAF when it was well-paid. You probably spent a few years on Middle East assignments, and made a small fortune. You were in the PIA as a pilot, which in my opinion, is the most lucrative job in Pakistan. You got this job due to your military training and experience. And you probably made a small fortune there. And you were part of the military generation, which unlike mine, probably got a plot or two of expensive real estate, which is worth a small fortune. And you can afford your son`s flying and education in the USA,. indicating you probably have money. All of this, you got through the military, and the military seems to have done a very good job of looking after you. In addition, the education you have is also thru the military defence colleges. It may not be great, but at least it is better than no education.

On the whole, you seem much better off financially, due to your time in the military, than people with equivalent qualifications, in your age group, who had to rough it out in the Pakistani civilian world. So I think you maybe going a bit overboard in complaining about it. You will run across mullahs and idiots and know-it-alls everywhere. Not only in the military.

Education is so valuable primarily because it is not easy to get. But, my experience has been, that those who want it bad enough, somehow or the other get it. I have colleagues, with far less money and opportunity than yourselves, who have gotten American Ph.Ds, while still serving in the military. Others have become super-surgeons, and lawyers while still in the PAF and Army. I recently met a lady from a mid to small sized town in Pakistan, who is doing a Ph.D in a North American university at around your age (assuming you are in your 50s). She has three grown up teenaged and twenty something unmarried kids and her husband is in Pakistan. Her roommate is her own daughter, who is doing a B.A in the same university.

I regularly meet with my ex-military colleagues of my age group in Silicon Valley, who had to struggle like crazy to re-educate themselves after getting out of the PAF, and Army, and did not have the advantages you or your son have. Yet all of them are very highly qualified now. I myself, at some level, had to go through this.

- The second thing is that I think you are greatly under-selling the education one gets in the Pakistan military. I wouldn`t trade it for the world. I belonged to engineering and not the command branches, and it is true that the command branches like flying, etc. are poorly educated. But I cannot think of too many Pakistani civilian institutes in Pakistan which are as good as the Army Medical College, and College of Aeronautical Engg., NUST, etc. Infact, NUST is now the best in Pakistan and one of the best in Asia.

Maybe the training gets really bad when one reaches middle management and executive level institutions, in the military, like you did. But how many executive training institutions are there in Pakistan to begin with, much less good ones. I doubt (if there are any) many of them would be any better than what is available at War Colleges or Defence Colleges.

A Masters in War Studies is not useless, for a person whose job it is to fight wars. It is only useless for a person who is not in that profession, any longer, like yourself. Just like an MA in drama studies from Harvard, would be useless for a a General comanding an Armour Corps., but not for an aspiring film maker or actor in Hollywood. And I believe all military degrees from Defence College etc. are actually from civilian universities like Quaid-e-Azam and NED etc. So these degrees can only be as good as the universities that oversee them.

I don`t think you have missed much by missing the university education in Pakistan. You are greatly over-estimating Pakistan`s civilian universities, in comparison to military institutions. I have met more than my share of graduates from these civilian universities and many of them are bigger buffoons and consider themselves bigger, ``know-it-alls`` (you will run into some on this site) than the Army folks. My ex-military colleagues who graduated from military technical colleges, as a group, are out-perfoming their Pakistani counterparts in Silicon Valley, who graduated from Pakistani civlian universities. And I would hire a graduate of a Pakistani military engineering university over one of a civilian engineering university any day. I have found the former to have more management and combined technical experience and discipline, due to military training, than those of civilian universities. The civilian group severly lacks in management and people skills. And is no better in technical skills.

The three brightest Pakistanis of my age group I have met are still in the military. This comparison includes all my Pakistani colleagues in Silicon Valley. One is in the Army Engineering Corps somewhere. The other is a professor in NUST. And the third is a PAF guy, doing research in Kahuta labs.

What you have missed out on is the international education. This is something the Generals in the command branches need it their portfolio also. This education is definitely more valuable than Defence College degrees. This is why non-command branch individuals in the Pakistan military (doctors, engineers, professors, etc.) have far broader horizons, due to their foreign education, than those in command branches.

And like I said, unless there is something severe holding you back, you still have time to get this type of a degree. Much like that lady in her 50s from the small Pakistani city, I mentioned.

#21 by arjun_m on July 13, 2003 8:25am PT

Safronisation of Indian History Elicits Deafening Silence

Anyone following the developments in India would have at least heard of the attempts to rewrite history, but not many are fully aware of the magnitude and scope of the endeavor

Did you know that Jesus Christ wandered the Himalayas and drew his inspiration from Hinduism? That a Hindu named Samundragupta built the Qutb Minar, originally known as Vishnu Sthambha? That the Taj Mahal was really a Hindu Temple known as Tejo-Mahalaya (Shiva`s Palace)? That the Red Fort in Delhi was a Brahmin palace? Or that the largest Holocaust in history was perpetrated by Muslims against Hindus in India?

http://iviews.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IV0301-1828

#9 by nazarhayatkhan: ``But Computer science/IT are not core sciences. Like engineering.``

I think Nazar Hayat Khan`s comments show the attitude that the Pakistan nation has shown to join the ``Tech Boom``. There is a fundamental difference between IT education in Pakistan and a degree in Computer Science. Sir, an investment of 26,000 Ruppees isn`t going to magically transform your daughter into a qualified computer scientist.

Difference between IT education and CS degree:

IT -> a 6 month diploma form Mullah Jatt Institue of COMPOTTER TECHNALAGY - some of the popular ones in Pakistan include CCNA, CCNP, Web Dev. , A+, Oracle and the list goes on.

Whereas Computer Science -> Algorithms, Data Structures, Digital Hardware, Software Development, Operating Systems, Artificial Intelligence to name a few.

I think in Pakistan the emphasis was on getting alot of students trained in using proprietry software of big corporations rather than training a few in the basic concepts of CS and electrical engineering.

It is not that Pakistanis arn`t smart enough, but there are not enough quality institutions in Pakistan to provide set them on the right path. Waterloo is one of the best places in the world to get a degree in CS and it is filled with students who are originally from Pakistan.
Some of you might find this very interesting. A Pakistani uni. making it to the top ten of an International Design competition (along with some of the much hyped IIT`s).

http://www.computer.org/csidc/TopTen.htm

Romair: It seems you are very passionate about the subject under discussion. I can well relate to it since I have the same tendency when it comes to certain aspects in life :) I have hardly been to the said institute`s campus thrice, despite the institute being in the vicinity of my parents` house.

In my view, information technology by itself is not going to lead Pakistan anywhere. There is a lot of focus on training in xyz solutions and stuff but unless you do not realize the implication or the impact of that solution in real industry there is no way that you are going to go anywhere. You will always be a handicap. Over the years, I have also come to the conclusion that it`s not MBA vs. Engineers or Technologists...it`s all to do with certain skill-sets that can be and should be a combination of both. Well, every one cannot get into the above mentioned fields and everyone may not have the leaning to end up in the above mentioned areas. To give an example, my sister, a lums graduate, could not stand Engg. On my end, I couldn`t comprehend her love for Econ that she plans to pursue a PhD after being with a multi-national for almost 5 years now. Same is true for my brother, majored in business and has a focus in Quantitative Econ and loves the field to death but cannot stand how the email system works. Over the years, the trend has slightly changed but the leaning has not.

On another note, I do agree with most of your points, but I disagree with your assertion on how Indians landed where they are. You are completely ignoring the point that I brought up earlier. Internal infrastructure contributes to the stability of any nation. If you are internally weak(whether you want to admit this on a public forum or not that`s besides the points) then you cannot expect yourself to do XYZ that India is doing. You should keep on moving without letting go of the root cause of all your problems.

There is a good point in arjun`s argument that India is not only marketing itself as a service provider that can provide resources at a cheaper cost but it has several other areas of expertise as well.

- Why couldn`t the think tanks, who are thinking for pretty damn long time, identify the core competence/expertise of Pakistan?

- On the same lines, why does not Pakistan get contracts for Call Center work despite the fact that many of our qualified resources can manage that particular area very well?
It`s not that people are not willing to provide quality service. It`s because those who are involved in contract negotiations stab their own nation by being hanky panky. I quoted a friend`s episode a while ago on how her organization lost the contract since Minister XYZ had a certain agenda in mind.

- I also do not believe in forming any more new institutes in Pakistan. The ones that are existing should be equipped with better facilities vs. using more land on establishing humongous(sp?) campuses. The existing institutes should be well advertised abroad by having colloborative efforts. Since many of the old institutes are government run therefore they are not put in that kind of spotlight.

- I am certainly interested in the research you have been involved in since it has certain components that are of immense interest to me due to my involvement in Vendor/Resource Management aspects. Just to mention that my focus is more industry specific vs. general programming and technology. I am still a learner when it comes to financial services since the industry and its nuances cannot be contained in one box. Both messaging (FIX, SWIFT and others) and compliance are areas where I am seriously considering to venture.

Note:
Checkout the following if you have not already done so...
1. Baseline has some great articles on Outsourcing and Offshore Vendors. Some studies around good lessons learned.
2. Wall Street and Technology - a free online subscription to learn about the trends in the Financal Services Industries. It also talks about the vendors providing services in different horizontal areas. I have some great article references that I will be more than glad to share since I also happen to dig for information and aspects that are of interest to me.

rest later....

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ZahraJ #13: No offense taken.

I have never even seen the LUMS building, much less have any knowledge of its insides. I have not seen the GIK building either. Nor have I seen the insides of any other major Engineering institution in Pakistan, other than those in the military.

I do a lot of market analysis and experience, both from a technical and business point of view, in IT, however. I have recently started doing this for the off-shore market as well. Pakistan is a tiny little dot on this market. India is a giant in this field. It almost owns the whole area. So most of my study is regarding Indian companies. I meet with reps of Tata, etc. every now and then. And I also meet with researchers from companies like Gartner, IBM etc., who follow these areas.

All this stuff is too fuzzy and subjective to get a clear handle on why certain countries are where they are in IT. But I think one can notice certain trends, by looking at countries like India, Ireland, Israel etc., which have been successful.

Pakistan needs three things:

1) If not world-level, then at least Asian level educational institutions in the IT arena. This is where everything starts. A series of PITs, if you will, much like IITs in India. I did not say, ``hundreds of institutes.`` You have put this phrase in for some reason. I only mentioned a few. Maybe four or five, or even three will do. The reason I keep mentioning LUMS, GIK, and NUST, is because these seem to be the top ones. If you know of others, kindly let me know. I regularly interview IIT grads, and every now and then end up interviewing LUMS/GIK etc. grads. The guys from these universities seem quite good. As does their faculties and facilities. However, the Pakistani universities` size is too small. Their IT departments need to be gigantic. And they need to start Ph.D programs.

``Where are those graduates going to land``

Where did the Indian graduates end up landing? Graduates with international level skills have a unique quality: They somehow or the other end up finding a place for themselves in the world, somewhere - specially if they are in hot industries like IT. Or they end up starting something themselves. Silicon Valley was a bunch of orchards, and still would be orchards, had it not been for Stanford and Berkeley grads.

2) Pakistan definitely needs to develop its local non-IT industry. That is the best way to IT growth for Pakistani IT companies. They will have first shot at local contracts. Indian off-shore companies aren`t going to let too many Pakistani companies (or Russian or Phillipino etc. companies, or even new Indian companies) get too many of the new off-shore contracts. I cannot see a Pakistani company, regardless of how good it maybe, competing against Wipro, Infosys etc. Whomever is the first in the marketplace, (like Microsoft in OS) gets a huge advantage. And Indian comapnies are the first in this area.

At the same time, Pakistan`s IT usage, even for its current local industry and market size is tiny. The biggest IT firms in Pakistan barely have double digit million dollar revenues. Even though Pakistan has some giant banks, a giant defence dept, a giant government, a huge population with more literate people than most European countries. A country with a GNI of close $70 billion, a defence budget of $3 billion, and giant banks like Habib Bank should just, within its local market, have hundreds of millions dollars of IT revenue.

If the banks and defence forces alone automate and become IT-saavy, that should be enough to accomodate a great number of these IT grads, either through straight employmet or thru their private ventures.

3) The third factor is entrepenuers. I haven`t studied the insides of all of India`s big IT companies. But like most IT companies in the world, they do seem to have the stamp on them, of a founding entrepreneur of family like Premji, Tata family, etc. Much like Microsoft would not be there had it not been for Bill Gates, and Dell has Michael Dell written all over it. If you graduate thousands of well-qualified students, three or four of them will become Premji, Dell and Gates, and will set up firms that will employ the remaining graduates.

If you graduate no one, well, then you stand nowhere. Universities is where everything starts. Not hundreds of them, just three to five very large very good ones. And a bunch of average small ones.

Whatever little experience (it is limited at the moment) I have of studying Pakistani, ``software houses,`` I have found them to be quite average or below average and very tiny. They are not in the big leagues. They are not even in the middle leagues. Five graduates from MIT, here and there, cannot create an IT boom. You need hundreds of MIT grads, out of which one may turn out to be a local Safi Qureshi. And they need support of thousands of competent local graduates, and thousands of Pakistanis abroad, who can give them contracts. They are no competition for off-shore houses like the Infosys etc. These software houses will not survive, unless Pakistan`s local industry is computerized or grows significantly.

I am strong believer in the fact that in today`s world, a well-educated, hard-working, IT graduate will not be unemployed, regardless of what happens on the NASDAQ. He/she is too valuable. And will find a place for himself/herself somewhere in the world.

Would be interested in your views...More on this later, however.....

#8 by arjun_m on July 12, 2003 3:40pm PT

JUST WHEN I TRIED TO GET OUT, YOU PULL ME BACK IN.

Romair:
`` IT universities are very easy to set up and require little infrastructure. ``
I am no expert in this area but I think the good ones do require quite an expensive infrastructure, at least according to one or two friends who teach at IITs. Roorky engineering college has existed for almost a century but was accepted as an IIT only a couple of years ago because of the stringent requirements. In India, it is difficult to get accepted even as an REC (regional engineering college) let alone the IIT status.
``A giant website selling shoes online, started by an MBA, was never going to as robust as an IT company developing the latest routers or application servers, started by Engineers. ``
As I said I am no expert in this area but I do live in Ottawa and am seeing Nortel, JDS, etc. who do precisely these things, trying to avoid going belly-up., while amazon.com seems to show promise of surviving the bubble.
ps. Are you a fellow canadian now?

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Romair,

No offense intended, but you have way too much emphasis on academics. And, you seem to be real fond of LUMS. Having a lot of family and friends affiliated with the said institute at one point and time; mainly my younger sibling an alumni and my first cousin as the ex-Dean of the said institute for a good number of years, I do not disagree with your repetitive assertions. But you have been singing the same mantra for a very long time. Perhaps, you need to be a little more creative in your recommendations unless that`s something typical of the PAF walas.

To counter your argument, what is the use of hundreds of institutes when you are not establishing any new industries? Where are those graduates going to land?

Probably, it will be wiser for the Software Houses to initiate a joint collaboration with the Agricultural Department and conduct some ripples there.

Romair # 10

Thanks for the advice for my son. Actually, he has his own mind. He says he enjoys maths - and is more into the self-actualization stuff. He intends to learn German and then go to Germany, the home of mathematics. His eventual aim, I think, is academia and in mathematics - core subject - queen of sciences - as he calls it.

He is a Commercial Pilot Licence holder with Instructor qualification. He left all this to get back to education.

I shall miss the university life all my life. All these Dergees of Staff Colleges are meaningless. (I am a BSC (Hon) & Masters in War Studies)

Romair #10 [``...next wave of IT startup companies will be ... around 2006-2007 ... when things will really pick up again...``]

Your optimism and positive outlook is most encouraging. Now I only pray that your prediction turns out to be true.

...SR

Why worry about these bania-type things? Doing these low level computer jobs are way beneath you guys. Leave those to the sambar-swilling dark skinned savages with funny long names (usually involves lingam or at least moorthy!!!!).

You guys are proud warriors. Do not forget your great heritage and descent from some illiterate central asian soldier. Stay with your core competence and re-focus on the jihad stuff. Why not try to de-stabilize Iran? After all Shia`s are more-or-less infidels. This could gainfully occupy those parts of your population that are not currently involved in murdering people in India or Afghanistan.

Pakistan`s IT industry in tiny. It is a fledgling industry. Infact it is not really even an industry. I think Pakistan`s textile export revenue is around $6.3 billion, while Pakistan`s IT revenue may only be around $100 million (not sure).

IT is going to stay around in the world. It is not going away. One cannot use the NASDAQ as the only barometer for the importance of IT. The NASDAQ crashed because too many MBAs started forming IT companies. They were out to make a quick buck through marketing and services and did not offer any solid technical products. A giant website selling shoes online, started by an MBA, was never going to as robust as an IT company developing the latest routers or application servers, started by Engineers. The next wave of IT startup companies will be led by Engineers and not by non-technical MBAs. My guess is around 2006-2007 is when things will really pick up again

Pakistan should not try to put the cart before the horse. One cannot just have an IT boom just like that. The expectations in Pakistan are and were way too high.

For Pakistan, the first step should be to concentrate on a few quality universities. IT universities are very easy to set up and require little infrastructure. Pakistan has the students, it has the buildings all, but it doesn`t have the professors. Pakistan needs to recruit IT professors from all over the world, and give them the same or higher salaries and benefits as 747 Captains in PIA. They are worth more in the international market. That is the only way to recruit such professors.

Pakistan has had success with some universities. LUMS is quite good. GIK, at its peak was ranked as the 9th best engineering university in Austral-Asia, by Asian international magazines. So within a few years after it had been set up, it was in the same league as Indian IITs. But Pakistani universities keep losing their professors and have kept falling down the list. NUST is now the highest ranked in Pakistan at around 20th in Asia.

The other thing Pakistan needs to concentrate on is expanding its local industry and creating a market for IT locally. I don`t think Pakistan can get much of a share of the off-shore market, now. The Indian companies like Wipro, Satyam, Tata, Infosys etc. own this market, and will not let any company compete with them.

If Pakistan can get the above two done, within 6 to 10 years, it will have the pre-requisites for an IT boom of some sort. Until then it should just concentrate on the building stage, and lower its expectations.

nazarhayatkhan #9: A piece of friendly advice. You may take it or leave it. But here is my two cents. I have exposure in Engineering, Math, and IT. I have taught Computer Science and Math courses in US universities. I would advise your son to stick with Computer Science. He will be making a big mistake by switching to Mathematics. A Ph.D. in Computer Science is still the hottest degree in the world. In academia alone, their unemployment rate is in negative numbers in the international market, i.e. there are more jobs than individuals with Ph.Ds in the computer science degrees. The only people I have seen getting Ph.D.s in Computer Sciences regularly are Chinese, Indians and East Europeans. And they aren`t enough in number to fill the US demand, much less then demand of the whole world.

I have rarely seen a person with a Computer Science degree look for jobs in other fields in the industry. While you will see many individuals with Mathematics, Electrical Engg., Mech. Engg, Industrial Engg., Business, Aerospace Engg, etc. etc. in the field of Software Engg, or trying hard to get into this field.

This is not to say that pure sciences are a bad field. They are good also. But I think Computer Science will be in much more in demand. So if your son is specifically interested in pure sciences and wants to do research, specifically in this area, then more power to him. However, if he is making a change from a job point of view only, then he would be much better off doing a Ph.D. in CS. Tell him to give me a call if he finishes a Ph.D. in CS. I will hire him in a day. That`s the least one can do for an ex-PAF colleague - even for one who was a misfit in the Air Force :-)

If the e-government project gets going in real earnst down to the Tehsil level, there will be lot of jobs in IT.

There was the IT band wagon. But Computer science/IT are not core sciences. Like engineering. (our Government is spending 3 billion on education and 160 billion on defence - So I do not buy the lip service by the Government)

My son who was doing computer science at Arizona State University just revealed to me few days back, close to his final semester, that he was Majoring in Mathematics and intends to continue in this pure science to the PHD. Good decision, I thought.

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hrrehman is not going to like this...now his beard will be on fire too...

Post 4: True to some extent.

And, that`s why in Pakistan`s case, I laid the blame on internal anarchy not for the sake of picking up the traces of an old issue but for the sake of taking the bull by its horn. If the body is physically injured, you cannot expect the mind to function at its best. Despite the fact that the mind is not directly impacted by the injury. Is it even fair to blame that body for poor performance ?

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I am one of those stupid persons who wasted 26000 rs to educate one of my daughter in so called IT education. I was so mesmarised that I began to dream of starting my self part time education. For 26,000 Rs. my daughter got nothing she says. They told us in beginning that she can soon be getting job in usa etc. They sold dreams. The instructors were not very educated. Few of them who were USA returned they were in recruiting rather than teaching. Its was great robbery under name of IT education and opportunity of getting jobs in usa. Its sad all Hype bu DR.Atta was Lafangebazi. A bad money robbing by USA return white collared criminal selling cruel fake dreams of usa.

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Tayyab,

Good Points. I think the Government needs to have one focused group conducting research and analysis on industry trends. This group needs to hook up with other areas that can leverage this group`s expertise. I am sure something like that must exist; but to what extent it is followed that`s still in the air.

Change requires blessings from the sponsors otherwise those trying to burn midnight oil to do miracles will end up nowhere. In Pakistan`s case, a significant % of the change is bottom up vs. top down. Probably that is why it takes a longer time to implement what needs to be implemented.

On your concern about the Software Houses: In my 7-8 years in management and technology consulting in various industry verticals, predominantly Financial Services; I have yet to come across any other vendor except from those hailing from India. That is also indicative of many other things. Mainly, if a country keeps on going though random changes internally, how the hell can that country represent anything externally. The only aspect you represent externally is on an individual basis vs. on a collective basis.
Externally, the representation carries a very distorted impression due to the following reasons:

- ethnic identities
- religious denominations

How can you expect anything else to be functional? When your country`s infra-structure can go upside down by JUI or PPP or whatever`s, one big hunger strike or any other strike, who cares about the industry trends and keeping abreast with them.

I do not mean to divert the drift of your article from its main course, I just wanted to identify an issue that is the root cause of many setbacks and failures.