Terrorism, Sectarianism and the Military
Hassan Nasir July 15, 2003
#86 Posted by faisaluno on July 18, 2003 5:25:23 pm
stuka:
one of the strongest and most fearsome paki mullahs has gone to india and pretty much echoed 90% of indian line on kashmir (hear hear). in return, when can we expect rss/ vhp types to come over to our side and criticize actions of isf?
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#85 Posted by hnasir on July 18, 2003 4:53:54 pm
Mr Ahmadzai, I am very proud Pakistani, without any identity crisis. I am thankful to Allah Almighty that I was born where I was born, though without fully agreeing with you about the reasons.
Would you like to kindly help me by telling that where in my article did you find that I was critical of Pakistan as a nation state or where did I was unthankful to the country? I wrote there and reiterate here that Pakistan would have been far better place to live in had not our top brass destroyed it altogether for its own myopic, personal interests.
About Mullah Military Alliance, help me solving this riddle.
The bloody sanads of these formally and informally semi-literate mullahs were declared equivalent to BA on the behest of whom?
Notorious Tariq Azam was not only allowed to contest elections, he is pandered by whom and why?
Who is the prime beneficiary if there is a barking bunch of beards to show the US that he is the last bulwark against Jehadis and nukes falling in the hands of Taliban?
Who created MQM?
Who declared them then anti-state, Indian agents?
Who engineered split in it?
How did they become clean patriot overnight?
Yes, Mullahs are protesting against Musharraf, you know why. Military has yet to learn about the dynamics of politics. Monster is trying to eat the creator. Nothing more than that.
Who is Musharraf? What mandate he has? If he was (or is) so popular than why the hell he didn’t get more than 5 % of votes during the referendum despite spending billions from public exchequer and abusing government machinery.
Ok, he is very nice man. What will happen after him, when he will eventually be vaporised? Who will take over after him? How long will we as a nation depend on one-man show? Is any viable system in offing?
Should I continue??
Would you like to kindly help me by telling that where in my article did you find that I was critical of Pakistan as a nation state or where did I was unthankful to the country? I wrote there and reiterate here that Pakistan would have been far better place to live in had not our top brass destroyed it altogether for its own myopic, personal interests.
About Mullah Military Alliance, help me solving this riddle.
The bloody sanads of these formally and informally semi-literate mullahs were declared equivalent to BA on the behest of whom?
Notorious Tariq Azam was not only allowed to contest elections, he is pandered by whom and why?
Who is the prime beneficiary if there is a barking bunch of beards to show the US that he is the last bulwark against Jehadis and nukes falling in the hands of Taliban?
Who created MQM?
Who declared them then anti-state, Indian agents?
Who engineered split in it?
How did they become clean patriot overnight?
Yes, Mullahs are protesting against Musharraf, you know why. Military has yet to learn about the dynamics of politics. Monster is trying to eat the creator. Nothing more than that.
Who is Musharraf? What mandate he has? If he was (or is) so popular than why the hell he didn’t get more than 5 % of votes during the referendum despite spending billions from public exchequer and abusing government machinery.
Ok, he is very nice man. What will happen after him, when he will eventually be vaporised? Who will take over after him? How long will we as a nation depend on one-man show? Is any viable system in offing?
Should I continue??
#84 Posted by darvesh on July 18, 2003 4:21:57 pm
As I remember it was perhaps in the generals’ election No 3 i.e., following the dismissal of Nawaz Sharif 1st government, a eunuch contested for a provincial assembly from northern town of Abbottabad. His main contention was that as we have already tried both sexes with disappointment it’s time to give the “third” force a chance.
So when adults have lost the distinction between right and wrong, legal and illegitimate, moral and immoral; when grown-up are unable to protest against usurpers; then Mr Faisal there is nothing wrong letting kids take lead. Let them talk, please.
So when adults have lost the distinction between right and wrong, legal and illegitimate, moral and immoral; when grown-up are unable to protest against usurpers; then Mr Faisal there is nothing wrong letting kids take lead. Let them talk, please.
#83 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 18, 2003 3:52:50 pm
His Excellency,
I appreciate your 2 good posts at # 23 and 29.
On Indian constant propaganda of cross-border terrorism, I would like to highlight the only weakness of Musharraf`s Government subsequent to 9/11 - we became too defensive on this front. This gave Indians an undue advantage. Else, this could be tactical move on part of the Government too. Immediately after 9/11, we might have wanted to get rid of the unwanted (rebellious and therefore, terrorist) elements within the society or we may not be having many options to counter Indian propaganda in the wake of the world opinion.
In my opinion, we should have been on the offensive against this Indian propaganda from the very beginning.
To another post, please note that Line of Control is a misnomer for Ceasefire Line. No Kashmiri would like to agree to partition of Kashmir along Ceasefire Line (LOC). Therefore, Indian coined phrase ``cross-border`` does not mean anything for Kashmiris.
I appreciate your 2 good posts at # 23 and 29.
On Indian constant propaganda of cross-border terrorism, I would like to highlight the only weakness of Musharraf`s Government subsequent to 9/11 - we became too defensive on this front. This gave Indians an undue advantage. Else, this could be tactical move on part of the Government too. Immediately after 9/11, we might have wanted to get rid of the unwanted (rebellious and therefore, terrorist) elements within the society or we may not be having many options to counter Indian propaganda in the wake of the world opinion.
In my opinion, we should have been on the offensive against this Indian propaganda from the very beginning.
To another post, please note that Line of Control is a misnomer for Ceasefire Line. No Kashmiri would like to agree to partition of Kashmir along Ceasefire Line (LOC). Therefore, Indian coined phrase ``cross-border`` does not mean anything for Kashmiris.
#82 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 18, 2003 3:52:50 pm
Hassan Nasir,
That you don`t read Indian newspapers, talk to Indians, watch Indian movies, travel around, etc. is a big enough reason for being over-critical of your own folks.
Get out in the world and see the misery there and then you will thank your stars that you were born in Pakistan and live in Pakistan (if at all you are a Pakistani).
I have written it before and I reiterate that many ethnic groups of Pakistan have their presence in the neighboring countries. However, each of this ethnic group is faring better than their neighbors goes to prove that Pakistanis are better off.
Example: Pakistani Pakhtoons are much better off than Afghan Pakhtoons, Pakistani Hazaras are much better off than their Afghan cousins, Pakistani Punjabis are much better off than their Indian cousins, Pakistani Mohajir community is much better off than their Indian Muslim cousins, Pakistan based Kashmiris are much better off than the Indian based Kashmiris. Even a small ethnic group of Kalash in NWFP`s Chitral Valley are much better off than their Afghan Nooristani cousins.
That you don`t read Indian newspapers, talk to Indians, watch Indian movies, travel around, etc. is a big enough reason for being over-critical of your own folks.
Get out in the world and see the misery there and then you will thank your stars that you were born in Pakistan and live in Pakistan (if at all you are a Pakistani).
I have written it before and I reiterate that many ethnic groups of Pakistan have their presence in the neighboring countries. However, each of this ethnic group is faring better than their neighbors goes to prove that Pakistanis are better off.
Example: Pakistani Pakhtoons are much better off than Afghan Pakhtoons, Pakistani Hazaras are much better off than their Afghan cousins, Pakistani Punjabis are much better off than their Indian cousins, Pakistani Mohajir community is much better off than their Indian Muslim cousins, Pakistan based Kashmiris are much better off than the Indian based Kashmiris. Even a small ethnic group of Kalash in NWFP`s Chitral Valley are much better off than their Afghan Nooristani cousins.
#81 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 18, 2003 3:52:50 pm
Sridhar at # 55:
Although TBs eloquent style was admirable and he earned standing ovation no less than 6 times (including thrice from me in front of my TV), if you seriously believe in whatever he said despite the scathing criticism he and Mr. Bush face in their respective home turfs and elsewhere in Europe, I seriously recommend you to a psychiatrist (i.e. if you are not already seeing one).
:-)
Although TBs eloquent style was admirable and he earned standing ovation no less than 6 times (including thrice from me in front of my TV), if you seriously believe in whatever he said despite the scathing criticism he and Mr. Bush face in their respective home turfs and elsewhere in Europe, I seriously recommend you to a psychiatrist (i.e. if you are not already seeing one).
:-)
#80 Posted by tahmed32 on July 18, 2003 3:52:50 pm
Maharana #78 One can argue until the cows come home on which side, Pakistan or India, has a larger proportion of the population that is steeped in hatred for the other side. One would have to do some proper research on Indian and Pakistani textbooks to come up with any conclusion that is more than self-satisfying nonsense. The results of all this as reflected on chowk are easy enough to see. Going by the chowk experience alone, one would conclude that there are relatively more Indians who come to chowk for purposes of paki-bashing (one or two extreme cases in fact proudly claim to be paki-bashers, as if this is some great achievement) vs. Pakistanis who come for Indian-bashing. There is no point in passing judgements on textbooks that you havent read and at best are only able to quote some pakistani newspaper article about them.
I have a suggestion: Rather than replacing an India-Pakistan bashing match with an India-Pakistan holier-than-thou match, why dont you set an example and discuss some other topic. From some of your earlier posts, I think you are smarter than the average basher on chowk, and leave this India-Pakistan ``mine-is-bigger-than-yours`` or ``mine-is-holier-than-yours`` subject for those whose idea of human interaction is the exchange of abuse.
I have a suggestion: Rather than replacing an India-Pakistan bashing match with an India-Pakistan holier-than-thou match, why dont you set an example and discuss some other topic. From some of your earlier posts, I think you are smarter than the average basher on chowk, and leave this India-Pakistan ``mine-is-bigger-than-yours`` or ``mine-is-holier-than-yours`` subject for those whose idea of human interaction is the exchange of abuse.
#79 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 18, 2003 3:52:50 pm
For Shankar at # 64 and brain washed extremist Indians:
1. I recently visited Karachi after 3 years. A group of Indian students was visiting Karachi as part of people to people contact. They said this upon reaching India - ``Karachi is exactly like Bombay``. However, they would have found it hard to find a place in Pakistan like Gujrat, Nagaland, Assam, Bodoland, Tiripura, Manipura, etc. But then I think that they were Indian students from India not yet grown up to be brain-washed like a typical Indian that we see on Chowk.
2. Whereas Indians may not want any friendship with Pakistan, they have to bend backwards to re-obtain their flying rights over our airspace. This they want so that they have cheaper access to Central Asian markets. This they have to do after having spent billions in a border build up of million strong troops in 2001-2. Also, they have to get MFN status from Pakistan so that they can `export their joblessness abroad`, despite creating an anti-Pakistani frenzy in India.
3. Finally, no Pakistani wants to interact with Indians on hate-other game. Pakistanis are here to introspect and critique ourselves. Generally, we believe that we are on the right track. We are much better off than where we were say 3 years ago. Those who know economics are confident of the progress. My brother works in GEO/Jang Group of Companies at a senior position. Courtesy him, I was able to meet some very well known figures of Pakistan`s political and financial world and I have written the above with 1st hand knowledge. Posting shoddy articles from Pakistani newspapers from journalists of questionable qualifications (or from other part of the world for that matter) should not bother any Pakistani on Chowk.
4. The general feeling in Pakistan is to develop Pakistan economically, socially and militarily so that we become sort of a role model of a Muslim / developing country. The healthy opposition ensures that there is a check on the Government. That there is a general acceptance in Pakistan of the way Pakistan is being governed these days is evident from all TV channels and newspaper editorials who tend to support the Government`s point of view. (The fact is that independent TV channels have interviewed Mulla reps to expose their weak standings).
5. In the meantime, Indian extremists are most welcome to vent their inherent frustration out through posting messages on Chowk or raising the bogey of cross-border terrorism at whatever international fora.
:-)
1. I recently visited Karachi after 3 years. A group of Indian students was visiting Karachi as part of people to people contact. They said this upon reaching India - ``Karachi is exactly like Bombay``. However, they would have found it hard to find a place in Pakistan like Gujrat, Nagaland, Assam, Bodoland, Tiripura, Manipura, etc. But then I think that they were Indian students from India not yet grown up to be brain-washed like a typical Indian that we see on Chowk.
2. Whereas Indians may not want any friendship with Pakistan, they have to bend backwards to re-obtain their flying rights over our airspace. This they want so that they have cheaper access to Central Asian markets. This they have to do after having spent billions in a border build up of million strong troops in 2001-2. Also, they have to get MFN status from Pakistan so that they can `export their joblessness abroad`, despite creating an anti-Pakistani frenzy in India.
3. Finally, no Pakistani wants to interact with Indians on hate-other game. Pakistanis are here to introspect and critique ourselves. Generally, we believe that we are on the right track. We are much better off than where we were say 3 years ago. Those who know economics are confident of the progress. My brother works in GEO/Jang Group of Companies at a senior position. Courtesy him, I was able to meet some very well known figures of Pakistan`s political and financial world and I have written the above with 1st hand knowledge. Posting shoddy articles from Pakistani newspapers from journalists of questionable qualifications (or from other part of the world for that matter) should not bother any Pakistani on Chowk.
4. The general feeling in Pakistan is to develop Pakistan economically, socially and militarily so that we become sort of a role model of a Muslim / developing country. The healthy opposition ensures that there is a check on the Government. That there is a general acceptance in Pakistan of the way Pakistan is being governed these days is evident from all TV channels and newspaper editorials who tend to support the Government`s point of view. (The fact is that independent TV channels have interviewed Mulla reps to expose their weak standings).
5. In the meantime, Indian extremists are most welcome to vent their inherent frustration out through posting messages on Chowk or raising the bogey of cross-border terrorism at whatever international fora.
:-)
#78 Posted by arjun_m on July 18, 2003 12:03:16 pm
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#77 Posted by arjun_m on July 18, 2003 12:03:16 pm
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#76 Posted by Maharana on July 18, 2003 12:03:16 pm
Assad_K # 54,
I do not need to read Paki history books for two reasons, one is in the quotes
``Page 202-203 of K K Aziz (1993), The Murder of History in Pakistan: A critique of history textbooks used in Pakistan, Vanguard Books Pvt Ltd, Lahore (editor: Najam Sethi), in a section titled `Tell Lies,` talking about the delusional indoctrination, says, `These are not distortions or slants or misconstructions or exaggerations or other venial faults. They are untruths, invented deliberately to deceive, cheat and misguide the students who attend school.``
The second...
India too has border dispute with china, but no indian goes to fight in china as jehadic fodder. No government in india has ever instigated tibetans to take up arms against china and spread terrorism. No indian instigates the present bangladeshi government to go agianst pakistan to fulfill any sectarian ideology. Contrast this with...
An undying belief that all hindus/sikhs are evil and jehad is a must to end them. A common man/woman in pakistan donates money for jehadic causes worldwide, believeing the muslim ummah and/or pakistan are victins of international conspiracy. Its this indoctrination prevelant in pakistan that has relegated the life of a human being to nothing but jehadic fodder, without any public outcry that it is inhuman to do so.
Do I need to expound on indoctrination any further? I guess not.
I do not deny that any society can be free of such religious nuts. But the essential difference in paki society and the other societies is that such religious nuts and their activities are not deemed illegal. They are encouraged by the army, society etc. Jehad is preached and young kids sent to fight and die. How many people in pakistan consider this to be waste of life? Do the patrents of these jehadi youngsters stop them usually? Why not. Is it not because of some form indoctrination prevalent in society? May be you as a pakistani can answer that.
Adios
I do not need to read Paki history books for two reasons, one is in the quotes
``Page 202-203 of K K Aziz (1993), The Murder of History in Pakistan: A critique of history textbooks used in Pakistan, Vanguard Books Pvt Ltd, Lahore (editor: Najam Sethi), in a section titled `Tell Lies,` talking about the delusional indoctrination, says, `These are not distortions or slants or misconstructions or exaggerations or other venial faults. They are untruths, invented deliberately to deceive, cheat and misguide the students who attend school.``
The second...
India too has border dispute with china, but no indian goes to fight in china as jehadic fodder. No government in india has ever instigated tibetans to take up arms against china and spread terrorism. No indian instigates the present bangladeshi government to go agianst pakistan to fulfill any sectarian ideology. Contrast this with...
An undying belief that all hindus/sikhs are evil and jehad is a must to end them. A common man/woman in pakistan donates money for jehadic causes worldwide, believeing the muslim ummah and/or pakistan are victins of international conspiracy. Its this indoctrination prevelant in pakistan that has relegated the life of a human being to nothing but jehadic fodder, without any public outcry that it is inhuman to do so.
Do I need to expound on indoctrination any further? I guess not.
I do not deny that any society can be free of such religious nuts. But the essential difference in paki society and the other societies is that such religious nuts and their activities are not deemed illegal. They are encouraged by the army, society etc. Jehad is preached and young kids sent to fight and die. How many people in pakistan consider this to be waste of life? Do the patrents of these jehadi youngsters stop them usually? Why not. Is it not because of some form indoctrination prevalent in society? May be you as a pakistani can answer that.
Adios
#75 Posted by pmishra2 on July 18, 2003 11:24:34 am
#71 Romain
The great Romair, the same who predicted great love for Pakistan in the US after 9/11 breaks wind once again:
[quote]
Yet both India and Pakistan are named in the same breath by everyone in world. I doubt there are any other two countries, in which one is so much larger than the other, and so much more advanced at their independence than the other, whose names are linked with each other at almost equivalent levels.
[end-quote]
Hah, hah ! You have outdone yourself in delusional fantasy. What a ludicrous statement.
Paki software industry is considered equivalent to indian software industry? Paki pharmacy companies are considered equivalent to Indian pharmacy industry? Paki engineers are considered equivalent to indians? Paki universities are considered equivalent to the IITs? Are indians are strip-searched at every airport like Pakis?
If you believe this to be true, then none of us can help you. We can only feel sorry for you.
Even better, why not approach CBS 60 minutes to run a show on paki universities just like they did on IITs? After all, all the world consider things indian equivalent to pakistan. Right? Of course, they are going to be terrified of actually visiting Pakistan and may want to avoid going there. But that will be the least of your problems...
The great Romair, the same who predicted great love for Pakistan in the US after 9/11 breaks wind once again:
[quote]
Yet both India and Pakistan are named in the same breath by everyone in world. I doubt there are any other two countries, in which one is so much larger than the other, and so much more advanced at their independence than the other, whose names are linked with each other at almost equivalent levels.
[end-quote]
Hah, hah ! You have outdone yourself in delusional fantasy. What a ludicrous statement.
Paki software industry is considered equivalent to indian software industry? Paki pharmacy companies are considered equivalent to Indian pharmacy industry? Paki engineers are considered equivalent to indians? Paki universities are considered equivalent to the IITs? Are indians are strip-searched at every airport like Pakis?
If you believe this to be true, then none of us can help you. We can only feel sorry for you.
Even better, why not approach CBS 60 minutes to run a show on paki universities just like they did on IITs? After all, all the world consider things indian equivalent to pakistan. Right? Of course, they are going to be terrified of actually visiting Pakistan and may want to avoid going there. But that will be the least of your problems...
#74 Posted by stuka on July 18, 2003 11:24:34 am
Romair:
``You will see a whole rainbow of views amongst Pakistanis vis-a-vis peace with India``
Unwittingly, you have actually recognized the crux of the problem. There is no national consensus at all in Pakistan over peace with India. From turning LOC into border to unending Jehad you have all kinds of opinions. India on the other hand has a popular consensus on converting LOC into the border and move on. Thereis no significant movement to either capture POK or give up Indian Kashmir.
Before talking to India, you guys need to talk amongst yourselves and form a consensus on what your objective is. Assuming it is realistically obtainable by negotiations, we can start talking. If not, you will have to formulate the methodology to obtain the objectives and go from there.
``You will see a whole rainbow of views amongst Pakistanis vis-a-vis peace with India``
Unwittingly, you have actually recognized the crux of the problem. There is no national consensus at all in Pakistan over peace with India. From turning LOC into border to unending Jehad you have all kinds of opinions. India on the other hand has a popular consensus on converting LOC into the border and move on. Thereis no significant movement to either capture POK or give up Indian Kashmir.
Before talking to India, you guys need to talk amongst yourselves and form a consensus on what your objective is. Assuming it is realistically obtainable by negotiations, we can start talking. If not, you will have to formulate the methodology to obtain the objectives and go from there.
#73 Posted by stuka on July 18, 2003 11:18:44 am
Romair:
``- One is that Pakistan has no hope and India will somehow or the other dominate and move ahead of it. ``
Due to sheer size, India has always been more dominant than Pakistan. Whereas averaged over 50 years, your statement is correct insofar as economic progress is concerned, it does not keep in mind that institution building in the former is much better than in Pakistan. You yourself have pointed out to the Catch 22 of Pakistan where Army is the only strong institution and others pretty much failing. Now, whereas in the 50S AND 60s when Pakistani institutions were stronger than now, economic progress occured, the situation is in reverse in the near term. Ayaz Amir himself says that whereas it took 10 plus year for Ayub and Zia to be out of favor, with Musharraf the same has happened in three years.
- There is no peace between India and Pakistan, because of Pakistan.
That is simply because Pakistan is not in favor of the status quo and Iindia is. We can go back and forth on the righteousness of the issue. But the cruz lies in what Pakistan can do, if anything, to overturn the status quo in Kashmir. If it adopts a means of violence, then it is responsible for breach of peace. India and China are at status quo because India has decided that peace and status quo is preferable compared to violence and an attempt to change the status quo which may or may not be successful.
``- One is that Pakistan has no hope and India will somehow or the other dominate and move ahead of it. ``
Due to sheer size, India has always been more dominant than Pakistan. Whereas averaged over 50 years, your statement is correct insofar as economic progress is concerned, it does not keep in mind that institution building in the former is much better than in Pakistan. You yourself have pointed out to the Catch 22 of Pakistan where Army is the only strong institution and others pretty much failing. Now, whereas in the 50S AND 60s when Pakistani institutions were stronger than now, economic progress occured, the situation is in reverse in the near term. Ayaz Amir himself says that whereas it took 10 plus year for Ayub and Zia to be out of favor, with Musharraf the same has happened in three years.
- There is no peace between India and Pakistan, because of Pakistan.
That is simply because Pakistan is not in favor of the status quo and Iindia is. We can go back and forth on the righteousness of the issue. But the cruz lies in what Pakistan can do, if anything, to overturn the status quo in Kashmir. If it adopts a means of violence, then it is responsible for breach of peace. India and China are at status quo because India has decided that peace and status quo is preferable compared to violence and an attempt to change the status quo which may or may not be successful.
#72 Posted by stuka on July 18, 2003 11:18:44 am
con`t: even the Indians who criticized Vajpayee`s China yatra as a sell out were bitching about the weakness in negotiating skills rather than fundamentally questioning peaceful moves to solve issues. Tthat is a lesson Pakistan has proved incapable of learning till this point.
#71 Posted by Romair on July 18, 2003 10:36:32 am
Shankar #64: Two things one always sees in Indians` statements.
- One is that Pakistan has no hope and India will somehow or the other dominate and move ahead of it.
- There is no peace between India and Pakistan, because of Pakistan.
I have read books on Nehru and I have read your remarks as well as views of the BJP - all seem to be saying the same things, mentioned above, over a time span of 60 years. The only person who seemed to differ was Gandhi. Yet somehow or the other Pakistan keeps chugging along, at the same or faster pace than India, averaged out over 50 years. And India keeps refusing to allow anyone from the outside to step in and try to create peace between the two countries. Even though it is convinced that Pakistan is the guilty party. Knowing fully well, that after 55 years, the two countries cannot make peace amongst themselves.
One of the qualities I have admired about Indians, at least the ones I run across in Silicon Valley, is their humility at the individual level. I initially thought it was a psychological effect of living under foreign rule for a long time (much like many Pakistanis become very humble when around goras). But I have seen this humility in the very successful super-millionaire Indian CEOs also.
Yet there is a strange phenomenon taking place, which perhaps can only be subtly picked up. One can see it in the remarks of the Indians and Pakistanis on this site, as well. Indians are slowly losing all forms of introspection, specifically with respect to Pakistan. And Pakistanis seem to be going overboard in introspection.
Introspection is the catalyst of reform. People who criticize their own the most, usually end up carrying out the most changes in their systems. Americans are some of the most self-critical people, on domestic issues, I have seen. And that is one of the reasons they have one of the most successful domestic systems. Recently, I have started seeing a lot of criticism of Pakistan by Pakistanis. It is a very healthy sign, regardless of whether it is against Musharraf, maulvis, or the secularists.
Most of all, one sees a more objective assessment of Pakistan vis-a-vis India, now, amongst Pakistanis. Pakistanis accept that India has been more successful in certain areas, like IT and entertainment, democrcatic institutions, etc. Yet, I have never seen any Indian claiming Pakistani superiority on this site, or in other places, in anything other than Cricket. I am sure we must be better than India in something, if we have had a higher economic growth rate than India, since Independence. Can you list anything? If not, then don`t you think your govt. and media has brainwashed you a bit too much, with respect to Pakistan?
You will see a whole rainbow of views amongst Pakistanis vis-a-vis peace with India, now. Just pick up any newspaper in Pakistan. There are all kinds of views. Pakistanis are critical of their own govt. and they are critical of the Indian govt., on this issue. As an example, they will criticize India for Siachen and Pakistan for Kargil. Yet there seems to be only a one-track stream of press, ideas etc. from the Indian side. One can see that in your remarks also, i.e. India is right, Pakistan is wrong. As an example, Indians are heroes in Siachen, Pakistan is the villian in Kargil. Infact, one rarely sees coverage of Siachen in any Indian movie, news item etc. Why not? While Pakistanis discuss and critique Kargil and Siachen openly. Hardly Indian even knows that both issues are (were) part of the same battle. I myself have stated that India was wrong in Siachen and Pakistan wrong in Kargil. Both are useless military offensives. Are you or any other Indian willing to say that India is wrong in Siachen and it is a uselss military offensive, that is still going on? This, in itself, is a good litmus test for the argument I am making in this reply. The Indian General who orchestrated Siachen, Gen. Chibber, gets invited to Pakistan as a guest speaker, openly.
I think Pakistanis are ready to accept third party mediation to create peace between Pakistan and India. They are willing to let others decide, be it UN, America, Human Rights organizations, etc. on who is right and who is wrong. This should be considered as an acceptance by Pakistan, that they are willing to openly state that they have made mistakes.
Yet India is completely opposed to it. Why does everyone in Bombay thinks Pakistan is wrong, and everyone in Karachi not think that India is wrong? If everyone in Bombay is convinced that Pakistan is wrong, then why are they afraid of letting the whole world know about it? The world would obviously rule in India`s favor. Wouldn`t it? One cannot have it both ways. If you are correct, then throw you cards on the table for everyone to see. If you are not going to throw your cards on the table, then how can you keep claiming that you are correct?
It is this lack of introspection, and disproportional self-assurity of India, vis-a-vis Pakistan, that has proved to be its achilles heal. By virtue of its size, its population, its resources, its advanced stage and much higher literacy rate at the time of independence in comparison to Pakistan, the survival of its pre-independence leadership, its history, etc., India should have left Pakistan far far behind by now. Yet both India and Pakistan are named in the same breath by everyone in world. I doubt there are any other two countries, in which one is so much larger than the other, and so much more advanced at their independence than the other, whose names are linked with each other at almost equivalent levels.
This is what you should be worrying about. Not what is happening in Pakistan.
You blame Pakistan for all the issues (as do most Indians). I blame Pakistan and India both (as do most Pakistanis). Pakistanis, on the whole, accept their fault in what happened in Bangladesh. They doubt India`s intentions in that war, but they accept that while there was terrorism carried out by Mukti Bahani, what Pakistan was doing was much worse. Musharraf himself went to Bangladesh and stated something similar. And a host of Pakistani organizations signed a letter indicating such. Yet India is completely unwilling to accept its similar actions in Kashmir. You and other Indians continue to attempt to justify it. I can understand you doubting Pakistan`s intentions, but why do you, unlike Pakistanis` interactors regarding East Pakstan on this site, not accept that India is the guilty party - if not vis-a-vis Pakistan, at least vis-a-vis Kashmir. You should sit down and think about this difference in attitude, between Indians and Pakistanis, in regard to their actions in Kashmri and Bangladesh respectively, sometime. And other similar issues.
If from what you have stated, people in India have reached such a stage of self-assurance that they are willing to justify their own atrocities, then I think they have nothing to fear from Pakistan. It cannot do anything to India. This illogical self-assurance is will damage India far more than anything Pakistan can throw at it.
I personally don`t think there will be peace between India and Pakistan, until other parties are allowed to step and help us make peace. Luckily, Pakistan has accepted this. I am hoping India accepts it also. Blaming one and other, is quite useless.
- One is that Pakistan has no hope and India will somehow or the other dominate and move ahead of it.
- There is no peace between India and Pakistan, because of Pakistan.
I have read books on Nehru and I have read your remarks as well as views of the BJP - all seem to be saying the same things, mentioned above, over a time span of 60 years. The only person who seemed to differ was Gandhi. Yet somehow or the other Pakistan keeps chugging along, at the same or faster pace than India, averaged out over 50 years. And India keeps refusing to allow anyone from the outside to step in and try to create peace between the two countries. Even though it is convinced that Pakistan is the guilty party. Knowing fully well, that after 55 years, the two countries cannot make peace amongst themselves.
One of the qualities I have admired about Indians, at least the ones I run across in Silicon Valley, is their humility at the individual level. I initially thought it was a psychological effect of living under foreign rule for a long time (much like many Pakistanis become very humble when around goras). But I have seen this humility in the very successful super-millionaire Indian CEOs also.
Yet there is a strange phenomenon taking place, which perhaps can only be subtly picked up. One can see it in the remarks of the Indians and Pakistanis on this site, as well. Indians are slowly losing all forms of introspection, specifically with respect to Pakistan. And Pakistanis seem to be going overboard in introspection.
Introspection is the catalyst of reform. People who criticize their own the most, usually end up carrying out the most changes in their systems. Americans are some of the most self-critical people, on domestic issues, I have seen. And that is one of the reasons they have one of the most successful domestic systems. Recently, I have started seeing a lot of criticism of Pakistan by Pakistanis. It is a very healthy sign, regardless of whether it is against Musharraf, maulvis, or the secularists.
Most of all, one sees a more objective assessment of Pakistan vis-a-vis India, now, amongst Pakistanis. Pakistanis accept that India has been more successful in certain areas, like IT and entertainment, democrcatic institutions, etc. Yet, I have never seen any Indian claiming Pakistani superiority on this site, or in other places, in anything other than Cricket. I am sure we must be better than India in something, if we have had a higher economic growth rate than India, since Independence. Can you list anything? If not, then don`t you think your govt. and media has brainwashed you a bit too much, with respect to Pakistan?
You will see a whole rainbow of views amongst Pakistanis vis-a-vis peace with India, now. Just pick up any newspaper in Pakistan. There are all kinds of views. Pakistanis are critical of their own govt. and they are critical of the Indian govt., on this issue. As an example, they will criticize India for Siachen and Pakistan for Kargil. Yet there seems to be only a one-track stream of press, ideas etc. from the Indian side. One can see that in your remarks also, i.e. India is right, Pakistan is wrong. As an example, Indians are heroes in Siachen, Pakistan is the villian in Kargil. Infact, one rarely sees coverage of Siachen in any Indian movie, news item etc. Why not? While Pakistanis discuss and critique Kargil and Siachen openly. Hardly Indian even knows that both issues are (were) part of the same battle. I myself have stated that India was wrong in Siachen and Pakistan wrong in Kargil. Both are useless military offensives. Are you or any other Indian willing to say that India is wrong in Siachen and it is a uselss military offensive, that is still going on? This, in itself, is a good litmus test for the argument I am making in this reply. The Indian General who orchestrated Siachen, Gen. Chibber, gets invited to Pakistan as a guest speaker, openly.
I think Pakistanis are ready to accept third party mediation to create peace between Pakistan and India. They are willing to let others decide, be it UN, America, Human Rights organizations, etc. on who is right and who is wrong. This should be considered as an acceptance by Pakistan, that they are willing to openly state that they have made mistakes.
Yet India is completely opposed to it. Why does everyone in Bombay thinks Pakistan is wrong, and everyone in Karachi not think that India is wrong? If everyone in Bombay is convinced that Pakistan is wrong, then why are they afraid of letting the whole world know about it? The world would obviously rule in India`s favor. Wouldn`t it? One cannot have it both ways. If you are correct, then throw you cards on the table for everyone to see. If you are not going to throw your cards on the table, then how can you keep claiming that you are correct?
It is this lack of introspection, and disproportional self-assurity of India, vis-a-vis Pakistan, that has proved to be its achilles heal. By virtue of its size, its population, its resources, its advanced stage and much higher literacy rate at the time of independence in comparison to Pakistan, the survival of its pre-independence leadership, its history, etc., India should have left Pakistan far far behind by now. Yet both India and Pakistan are named in the same breath by everyone in world. I doubt there are any other two countries, in which one is so much larger than the other, and so much more advanced at their independence than the other, whose names are linked with each other at almost equivalent levels.
This is what you should be worrying about. Not what is happening in Pakistan.
You blame Pakistan for all the issues (as do most Indians). I blame Pakistan and India both (as do most Pakistanis). Pakistanis, on the whole, accept their fault in what happened in Bangladesh. They doubt India`s intentions in that war, but they accept that while there was terrorism carried out by Mukti Bahani, what Pakistan was doing was much worse. Musharraf himself went to Bangladesh and stated something similar. And a host of Pakistani organizations signed a letter indicating such. Yet India is completely unwilling to accept its similar actions in Kashmir. You and other Indians continue to attempt to justify it. I can understand you doubting Pakistan`s intentions, but why do you, unlike Pakistanis` interactors regarding East Pakstan on this site, not accept that India is the guilty party - if not vis-a-vis Pakistan, at least vis-a-vis Kashmir. You should sit down and think about this difference in attitude, between Indians and Pakistanis, in regard to their actions in Kashmri and Bangladesh respectively, sometime. And other similar issues.
If from what you have stated, people in India have reached such a stage of self-assurance that they are willing to justify their own atrocities, then I think they have nothing to fear from Pakistan. It cannot do anything to India. This illogical self-assurance is will damage India far more than anything Pakistan can throw at it.
I personally don`t think there will be peace between India and Pakistan, until other parties are allowed to step and help us make peace. Luckily, Pakistan has accepted this. I am hoping India accepts it also. Blaming one and other, is quite useless.
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