Dislodging a Dictator

Naqshbandi

ah... pinning your hopes on a `kafir` Hindu-christian woman to save your muslim brethren in India ? Amazing how the anti-secularism religious lobbyists of Pakistan become perfectly secular in an Indian context.

-Manto

Romair bhai--thanks but no thanks (though it`d be a pleasure to meet you I think I`ll skip your Qur`an interpretations thanks.)

Should I abandon 1400 years of qualified Islamic scholarship [aka ulama] and accept your or my own views? Would you let me operate on you if I had only read a book on neurosurgery and not gone to medical school? In the same way my PhD in biomedical engineering (almost!) does not qualify me to derive rulings from the Koran sharif. That is only for the mujtahid imams and the ulama who followed them in an unbroken chain to today.

So I will keep to my Imam Ghazzali etc. thank you very much! :-) My eternity depends on it.

As a friend I will encourage you to read the following extract please about interpreting the Quran Sharif:-

***
``Tafsir`` means informing and discovering. It is the process of informing and explaining. ``Tawil`` means pulling back or escaping. ``Tafsir `` comes to mean giving a meaning. ``Tawil`` is selection of one of the meaning among many meanings. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to make ``Tafsir`` according to one`s own opinion. ``Tafsir`` is performed according to the rules of transmission (``Riwayat`` or ``Nakl``). On the other hand, ``Tawil`` is done according to one`s knowledge and capabilities. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``A person who interprets the Qur`an according to his own opinion is in clear error even if he is right.`` It is not correct to say such and such is the meaning of the speech (Kalam) of Allahu ta`ala without investigating first whether that such and such is in any way commented by Rasulullah, peace be upon him, or by his companions or that whether it conforms to the interpretations (Tafsirs) of the previous scholars or to the methodology of the knowledge of interpretation, or without knowing the Arabic language that was spoken at the time of Rasulullah, peace be upon him, i.e., the ``Quraish`` dialect, or without thinking about reality (Haqiqat) and metaphoric (Majaz) aspects of it, or without being able to differentiate whether it is general, personal, concise (Mujmal), or detailed (Mufassal), and without investigating the reason of why that such and such verse (Ayat) was revealed, or whether it is ``Nasih`` or ``Mansuh.`` ``Tafsir`` means one`s being able to understand from the sayings of Allahu ta`ala what Allahu ta`ala meant with that saying. Even if one`s interpretation according to his own opinion is correct, since it is not derived by following the proper methodology, it is a mistake. If one`s interpretation according to his own opinion is not correct then, it would cause disbelief. Similarly, transmitting hadiths without knowing whether they are correct (Sahih) or corrupt, whether it be they are correct (Sahih) or not, would be a sin. It is not permissible (Jaiz) for such a person to read hadiths. It is necessary to get a diploma (Ijazat) from hadith scholars in order to make hadith-transmission from the hadith books. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``A person who invents a phrase and says that it is hadith, will be punished in hell.`` It is permissible (Jaiz) for those who do not have diplomas (Ijazat) from the interpretation (Tafsir) scholars to talk or write about verses of the Qur`an by looking at the interpretation books written by interpretation scholars. The people who possess above written conditions can make transmission (Nakl) of interpretation and hadith without having a written diploma. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to receive money in order to give diplomas. It is necessary (Wajib) to give the diploma to a person who demonstrates the necessary qualifications. It is forbidden to give the diploma to those who do not possess the necessary qualifications.



In the following hadiths Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an without having the necessary qualifications will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who say something as hadith without knowing it, will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an according to their own opinion will be punished in hell.`` The corrupt persons (Ahl al-bidat) who recite or quote hadiths or verses of the Qur`an in order to prove their corrupt paths are of this kind.

****
Interpretation (Tafsir) should be done according to the principles of transmission (Nakl). In order to perform interpretation, one should be knowledgeable about the following fifteen kinds of knowledge (Ilm): language, dialect or words (Lugat), syntax (Nahv), grammar (Sarf), etymology (Ishtikak), meaning (Ma`ani), explanation (Bayan), ornament of speech (Badi`), reading (Kira`at), methodology of religion or bases of religion (Usul-i din), Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh), reason or cause of the revelation of the verses of the Qur`an (Asbab-i nuzul), the one which cancels a previous verse (Nasih) and canceled verse (Mansuh), methodology of Islamic jurisprudence (Usul-i fiqh), Hadith, and knowldege of spiritual heart (Ilm al-qalb.) It is not permissible (Jaiz) for one who does not know these subjects to make interpretation of the Qur`an. The knowledge of spiritual heart (Qalb)`` or ``Mawhiba`` is a kind of knowledge which Allahu ta`ala sends without an intermediary to pious scholars who follow Islam minutely. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``Allahu ta`ala teaches the secret things if one practices the things one knows.`` It is not permissible (Jaiz) for anyone who does not know above-mentioned fifteen subjects to make interpretation. If one performs interpretation without knowing them then one will be doing it according to one`s own opinion and will be deserving to be punished in hell. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``A person`s heart will be filled with wisdom (Hikmat) by Allahu ta`ala and he will start to tell them if he practices Islam with sincerity `Ikhlas` for forty days.`` Anyone who gives meanings to the metaphoric (Mutashabih) verses of the Qur`an will be considered as one of those who performed interpretation according to his own opinion. The interpretation of corrupt persons (Ahl al-bidat) who deviated from the right path is of this kind.



There are three types of knowledge (Ilm) in the Qur`an. Allahu ta`ala did not inform anyone about the first type. The reality of His Person (Zat) and His attributes and telling about unknown are in this category. The second type is the secret knowledge He revealed to His prophets. Prophets may reveal these to those whom Allahu ta`ala chooses. He taught the third type of knowledge to His prophets, peace be upon them, and ordered them to teach this knowledge to all of their followers (Ummat). The third type is also divided into two sections. The first one is learned only by hearing. Knowledge about the Doomsday (Qiyamat) is of this kind. The second one is learned by observing, examining, reading and understanding its meaning. Knowledge which pertains to belief and Islam is in this category. Even, ``Mujtahid`` Imams could not be able to understand with certainty Islamic knowledge which are not informed through the ``Nass`` clearly and had different opinions. Thus, various schools of thought (Madhhabs) came into being with respect to practice (Amal). The activity of those who derive meanings by following the fifteen subjects mentioned above is not called interpretation (Tafsir) but instead it is called ``Tawil`` because, these meanings include his own understanding. In other words, he selects one among the many meanings that are apparent to him. If the one he selects does not conform to the literal and clear meanings of the verses of the Qur`an and hadiths or to the unanimity (Ijma), then, it is invalid (Fasid).

(from http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Ethics_of_Islam/e1-33.html)

harimau,

what are the chances of sonia or her daughter priyanka winning the next general election from the BJP?

Last post was addressed to both Romair and Naqshbandi

Romair seems to be going on and on about Benazir ... once again he has totally missed the point... it is not Benazir alone we are talking about. We are saying that a Corrupt Political civilian leader is better than the best and the most honest of the Military dictators. That is a principle we hold sacred ... The best of the Military dictatorships (brought to power at the barrel of a gun) is worse than the worst of Civilian Democracies. This is exactly what the Turks told Musharraf when he shamelessly toured Turkey so soon after the coup (After all Ataturk had made a point out of resigning his commission and taking off his uniform before presenting himself before the Grand National assembly for election as the president. Yes he was a dictator but a civilian one with the express confidence of the people.)


``Also if he had been a Shia at that time then the Barelvi ulama and mashaikh would not have supported him like they did``

We have not established one that all Barelvis supported Jinnah. (Remind us also which tariqah of Muslims it was who universally declared the other `fasiq` Kemal Ataturk to be the `Saif-ul-Islam` and Ghazi? Was it because Ataturk was a good sunni Muslim?)

Secondly it seems that you are admitting that Barelvi ulema are inherently bigoted and fanatical. I admit that Barelvis are better than Deobandis but in the end there is little difference between the fanatics of deoband and people like Maulana Noorani. Naqshbandi seems to think that Jinnah converted to sunnism by the time he died. It is amazing that his sister claimed his property declaring him to be a `Ismaili Shiite Mohammaden`. The only claim of conversion that seems to be accurate is that Jinnah had become a ithna Ashari shiite in the late 1910s. When Jinnah was asked what kind of a Muslim he was, he replied `I am in a dilemma, if only these maulvis could tell me what kind of a Muslim the Prophet was`... implying that he didn`t believe in sects. In his private life Jinnah remained a shia and became increasingly a religious shia in the later part of his life. Infact he cancelled one of this meetings with Gandhiji on 21st Ramadan because of the day of Ali`s Martyrdom citing the observance of personal religious beliefs. You find references to his personal religious affiliation to Shiite Islam in the Jinnah papers.

Naqshbandi also seems to think that the corrupt Benazir would be angel once she converts to Tahir ul Qadri`s tariqah, though I admit Tahir ul Qadri is one religious leader I would vote for if I was there. But here is the thing, I have met people from Minhaj ul Quran University ... I have a very good friend who teaches Islamic studies there... and I have always found him to be very logical and progressive in his approach, unlike Naqshbandi who seems to be caught up in his little world. Yet atleast Naqshbandi has the courtesy to answer the questions posed to him.. quite the different matter that I don`t agree with him. Goes a long way to confirm my thesis that it is not the religious extremists that are the problem, it is people like Romair who neither here nor there, naa wo he-on mein hain naa she-on...

As usual Romair has avoided all the questions. As usual he seems to be caught up in his little world where the order is about to collapse and replaced by perpetual conflict between the `secular extremists` and the `religious extremists`...

Koi Bhee soch unki Apni nahi
Rahtein hain Janat mein wo ahmakon ki



Nasah,

:)

Inshallah

-Manto

Ref khamkhwa. #113

[...what is the number of nuclear bombs of india and pakistan....and the cost factor for the development of the same please...any body?]

Don`t be lazy. Google for `High Energy Weapons` or `Nuclear Non-Proliferation`, follow a few of the hundred or so sites listed as links and find guesstimates on the number of nukes India and Pakistan possess.

Nobody has a guess on what these cost. However, it is well-known that India had had an active civilian (meaning, power-generation) nuclear program for decades and most of the cost is borne by the civilian aspects. The number of scientists/facilities for design, development and fabrication of nukes is probably a small part of the scientists` daily work.

Do the work and post the results for others to see.

Ref ali87 #6

[wow you pakistanis are real short of options!!

Imagine Benzair the saviour!!!

Im speechless.]

Not too shabby considering that we in India have Sonia Gandhi for the Congresswallahs to suck up to.

First rule of debate: if you are a pot, don`t call the kettle black.

``Footnote: Long Live a Secular Democratic Pakistan ``(YLH)

why footnote -- why not a headline

Bravo -- murhaba -- tum salamat rahohazar burus -- gurche -- baree dair kee meherbaan aate aate -- anyway welcome and -- thanks for dumping the Islamic part --

Hamdani WILL one day BE -- the first Prime Minister of a ``Secular Democratic Pakistan`` -- I hope in my life time......

FerozK:

Yeah, I`m done regurgitating the same old stuff I had to say over again :)
When I`m in Lahore, we`ll have a chowkie get together and can continue with bits and pieces of this discussion.

Thanks for the info on east asian economies.

``Even a pious Shia cannot be a leader of Muslims acceptable to the Ahle Sunnat.`` (NAQSHBANDI)

it appears that -- SOMETHING IS BASICALLY WRONG WITH YOU `SUFI` MIAN -- can you tell us what it is?

Lets hope she becomes a practising Sunni Muslim by listening to the Professor`s lectures and taqreers and reading his books!

Naqshbandi: ``You see in Shariah, if a person has a clean shaven face that is a sin and a person who sins openly is termed a fasiq.``

``As for the general question-can a Shia and a fasiq be a leader of Muslims--then in the opinion of the Ahle Sunnat ulama the answer is obviously no. Even a pious Shia cannot be a leader of Muslims acceptable to the Ahle Sunnat. ``

I am afraid you have a lot to learn about Islam. I think all your Ulema have greatly misguided you. It is these Ulema`s and their followers who have ruined Islam, and have made it such an easy target for everyone. This is probably why Islam has never supported professional maulvis in positions of power.

If we ever get a chance to meet, I will give you my interpretation of the Quran, ayat by ayat.

In the meanwhile, I would suggest you stop following these Ulema. These aalims have made something very simple into something very complex, primarily, to solidify their own position. Change your name back to Asif (whatever it was at birth, unless it was Naqshbandi to begin with). And start studying the Quran yourself, without the influence of any Aalim. Just through discussions with normal everyday non-Ulema folks, like myself.

Otherwise, you will never be able to get out of the narrow-minded tunnel you are currently caught in. The Ulema will never point this out to you. I doubt your religious views will never appeal to anyone who doesn`t have the last name Naqshbandi. And you will waste your education that you are getting in England.

I say this as a well-wisher. Pakistan needs educated people studying religion. Since it has unfortuantely been discarded by educated Muslims, and is the domain of uneducated people. You have the privelage of getting an excellent education, and you have the motivation of studying religion. It is sad to see you waste all your efforts at the doorsteps of all these Ulema, who are actually less educated than you.

P.S. People without beards are sinners, from one side.......Corrupt money laundering thieves are the next Fatimah Jinnah, from the other side......Dear God, what have Pakistanis turned into...........

baaziichaa-e-atfaal hai duniyaa mere aage
hotaa hai shab-o-roz tamaashaa mere aage

Ref arjun_m #118

[The anti-US commie Nehru got the IITs built with help from the US. Zia accepted madrassahs in Pakiland in exchange for the F-16s. Ironic, isn`t it?]

MIT and Stanford aren`t everything in the world. And no, the US did NOT build all the IITs in India.

The first IIT at Kharagpur received international assistance from several countries. Then, Russia (or the USSR) helped build IIT Bombay, West Germany helped IIT Madras and Uncle Sam came in last for IIT Kanpur.

IIT Delhi? Please call it by its real name: Hauz Khas Engineering College.

Am I doomed to be the history professor of Chowk?

Interesting news. Looks like the Swiss accounts are changing behaviors.

``Benazir Bhutto becomes life member of Minhajul Quran

Staff Report

LAHORE: Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) Chairperson Benazir Bhutto has sought lifetime membership of the Tehrik Minhaj ul Quran (TMQ) in the presence of Dr Tahir ul Qadri in London.

Sources said, a 35-member senior delegation led by Benazir Bhutto visited the TMQ and remained there for three and quarter hours.

She was impressed by Tehrik’s educational programme and social welfare projects.

She held an hour-long meeting with Dr Tahirul Qadri and discussed the political situation in Pakistan.

Later, speaking to journalists, Benazir said no party, group or organisation could compete the TMQ throughout Europe. She said she had joined the Tehrik because of its non-political status.`` (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-8-2003_pg7_3)

Uh-oh, now what?

````The Turkish elite is mixture of Balkans( boys ) and Cherkes( Caucasian girls). Eighty % of grand viziers were non Turks and except the first few , mothers of most of Ottoman Sultans were non-Turkish - Christians princesses from the Balkans ,Russians , Greeks , Jews even French, Aimee Dubarry! -Josephine`s cousine. They freely practiced Christian faith in the palace and young heirs were even brought up as Christian boys , before their Islamic education started .

The real Turks , Turcomen from Central Asia are around 12-15% and mostly Shiite Alevis .They are persecuted from time to time by majority Sunnis who are racially not Turks .Such is reality.````

yasser bhai :-) [manto]

I have answered your question about Jinnah in my latest post in the Curse of Mullah thread currently on Chowk. Please see it there.

**

As for the Syed Bukhari you mention I have heard of the name only but know nothing about him so can`t comment.

**
When you say ``leader`` do you mean prime minister/president only or do you include any leader. See I know the conditions necessary for a Caliph but since Quaid e Azam was not (and no one claims) a caliph it will not be fair to compare him to these criteria.

**
Was he a Shia? He was certainly born into an Ismaili family (but was never v religious and not practising) but my understanding is that before his death he had become a Sunni and this can be seen from the fact that his janaza was read according to Sunni rites and rituals by, I think, Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani , a moderate Deobandi Sunni.
Also if he had been a Shia at that time then the Barelvi ulama and mashaikh would not have supported him like they did.
**
As for the general question-can a Shia and a fasiq be a leader of Muslims--then in the opinion of the Ahle Sunnat ulama the answer is obviously no. Even a pious Shia cannot be a leader of Muslims acceptable to the Ahle Sunnat.