Dislodging a Dictator

#174
Harimau,
First graduate of Thomson college passed earlier than 1850s. Perhaps we can leave this discussion at that point.

I am surprised by your reference to ``Soyasauce`` . I do not see any of his posts in this thread. Why are you so pissed off? For all you know, I may be a bania!!

Ref friend #173

[Please confirm facts on College of Engineering, Guindy - It should be 1894, not 1794.]

I quoted verbatim from Anna University`s website. (Guindy Engineering College is the nucleus of Anna University.)

I did say that the first graduate from Guindy was in the 1850s. But the school itself was established earlier to train surveyors, etc. Its students worked on the Great Trigonometrical Survey of India directed and conducted by George Everest. I will have to look in my copy of the book `The Great Arc` to find out when the survey started. The website that is trying to raise some funds for the College says that the college is 205 years old.

As a further aside to that raving lunatic Soysauce, the first graduate of Guindy Engineering College -- as reported by S. Muthiah in his columns -- looks to be a brahmin from his name.... proving his pet theory that brahmins are the cause of all evil in Tamil Nadu. This of course is lapped up by Chowkwallahs from the wrong side of the border who believe that the brahmin-bania complex is the root of all evil. Soysauce is ingratiating himself with Chowk editors by hiding the fact that he is most likely to be a bania.

Harimau #170
Thomson Engineering college was first affiliated to University of Calcutta. Than it got moved to Agra University.

From http://www.iitr.ernet.in/about/heritage/index.shtml
``The Roorkee College was established in 1847 AD as the First Engineering College in the British Empire. The College was renamed as The Thomason College of Civil Engineering in 1854. It was given the status of University by Act No. IX of 1948 of the United Province (Uttar Pradesh) in recognition of its performance and its potential and keeping in view the needs of post-independent India. Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India, presented the Charter in November 1949 elevating the erstwhile college to the First Engineering University of Independent India.``

From http://www.becs.ac.in/index.php
Established in 24th November 1856 occupying three rooms in Writer s Building to meet the requirement of trained Engg. personel for Public Works Department as Civil Engineering College,was affiliated to the Calcutta University in May 1857.

Please confirm facts on College of Engineering, Guindy - It should be 1894, not 1794.

an interesting excerpt from :``Dilli Hunnoz Door Ast`` by Pakistani Columnist MK Bandara on a visit to India:

``If there be unceasing fanatic for greater Indo-Pakistan cordiality hopefully leading to some roadmap of an agreement, it is the veteran well-known columnist, formerly from Sialkot, Mr Kuldip Nayar. We appear to be in agreement on various points but a disagreement towards the end.

The points of agreement run as follows:

* Pakistan must appreciate that no division of J&K on a communal basis would be acceptable to any government in Delhi or public opinion in India.

* India must appreciate that acceptance of the Line of Control as an international border in Kashmir would not be acceptable to any government in Islamabad or public opinion in Pakistan.

* Pakistan must concede that the sponsorship of terrorism right from 1965 has proved a failure; it is counter-productive and has retarded Pakistan`s economic and political growth. In objective analysis, terrorism in Kashmir has proved far more costly to Pakistan than to India. It must take certifiable steps to stop cross-border terrorist movement.

* India must concede that the terror of the Indian army and the `disappearances`, torture in custody, rape and other excesses have spawned and promoted terrorism - both Kashmiri and non-Kashmiri - and provided fuel to Islamic militancy.

* India must appreciate that Kashmiri Muslims are by and large an alienated lot. The onus is on India to bring about real changes to rectify the situation.

* Pakistan must appreciate that there are 150 million Muslims in India, and Pakistan`s Kashmir-centric policy militates against Muslim interests in India, promotes communal hatred and generally makes life more difficult for the Muslims in India.

In the context of the above assumptions, which I think we agreed upon, an interim solution lies in India implementing Article 370A of its Constitution in letter and in spirit on a non retractable basis by giving the J&K the autonomy promised by Article 370A of the Constitution.

Likewise Pakistan should follow suit in Azad Kashmir by giving it equal autonomy.

The Muzaffarabad-Srinagar road should be opened and the two state assemblies should have a joint session once a year. Trade and traffic into the respective parts of Kashmir held by India and Pakistan be controlled by the respective Kashmir governments.

The intention of these steps is a conscious attempt to blur the rigidities of the Line of Control. Autonomy under Article 370A will, of course, remain a dead-letter as long as the strength of the Indian army is not reduced to pre-1988 levels and Delhi`s governor no longer functions as a `viceroy`.

Where I differ with my friend Kuldip is that autonomy should lead eventually to the independence of the Valley.``(MK Bhandara in DAWN)

This is the most viable solution of all .........minus the Independencece.

friend#165
Thanks. My late Mamoo did his diploma in engineering from Roorkee in 1920 or thereabouut.

Ref friend #167

[First few engineering colleges in India were started to train manpower for railway and canal projects.]

True.

[Thomson Engineering College in Roorkee was started in 1847 to train overseers for Ganga Canal project. Later this college became Roorkee Enginnering College, University of Roorkee and in 2001, IIT Roorkee. Engineering College at Jadavpur and at Pune are also among first few engineering colleges in India.]

Without questioning the facts about Roorkee`s date of founding, I must point out that the earliest British settlements were at Calcutta, Madras and Bombay, and the first British institutions were set up in these three Presidencies. Bengal Engineering College, Sibpur had its start in 1843. (``Promted by the idea of meeting requirements of trained engineering personnel for the Public Works Department, the then council of Education, Bengal, decdided to open Civil Engineering classes and a proffesorship in Civil Engineering was created at the Hindu College, Calcutta, in 1843-44. A college of Engineering was started by the name of Civil Engineering College on November 24, 1856, in the premises of the Writer`s Building, Calcutta.`` - http://www.calonline.com/oncampus/oncampus_cal/becollege/bec_about.htm)

In his columns in `The Hindu` (``Madrasscape`` and ``Madras Miscellany``), S. Muthiah retraces the history of the city of Madras. This has not yet been published in book form so I don`t have access to the information but I remember that the College of Engineering at Guindy (Madras) was also one of the first engineering/construction schools founded in India. (``The University was formed by bringing together and integrating two well-known technical institutions in the city of Madras,

College of Engineering, Guindy (CEG)(1794)

Madras Institute of Technology , Chrompet (MIT)(1949)

and three Technological Departments of the University of Madras.

Alagappa College of Technology (ACT)(1944)

School of Architecture and Planning (SAP)(1957)`` - http://www.annauniv.edu/campuses.html).

I do remember that the first graduate (in Civil Engineering) was actually in the 1850s though the college seems to have had an earlier start in 1794. However, the ``three technological departments`` being listed as ACT and SAP does prove that the Sangilikkaruppans and Sudalaikkannus of Tamil Nadu cannot count beyond the number 2 and this might explain the predominance of Tamilians in the IT field which is based on binary computers.

More on the Fatima Jinnah`s murder alluded to in the article:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

Jinnah`s sister, Fatima


By Ardeshir Cowasjee

There once was a man - Mohammad Ali Jinnah - who by the sheer force of an indomitable will carved out a country wherein his brethren could live and thrive in peace and prosperity. He did it without mounting a single hunger strike, without spending a single day in jail. He worked hard, and he lived well according to his own taste and style.

Three days before the Dominion of Pakistan came into being, on August 11, 1947, over half a century ago, Jinnah addressed the members of his constituent assembly and, clearly and firmly, he told them that religion was a matter between a man and his God and was `not the business of the State`.

A man of perception, having seen the beginnings of Pakistan, shortly before he died, he predicted that each successive government of the new nation would prove to be worse than its predecessor. History has shown how right he was.

Fatima, one of Jinnah`s sisters, a dentist by profession, never married and abandoning her profession decided to tag along with her ambitious and able brother, a widower. She was a parsimonious woman, eternally at war with the world. She had no influence over her brother`s political life and had little to do with the making of Pakistan, with its subsequent breaking, or with its mythical ideology. Someone once dubbed her madar-i-millat, and the appellation stuck.

Now, after reading the July 22 front-page news of Jadoogar of Jeddah Sharifuddin Pirzada`s startling disclosure that Fatima`s death was not a natural death but, in conformation with the rumours that arose 36 years ago, in 1967, when she was found dead in her bed, there had been foul play, I did what we all do in Pakistan and `rushed`, not to the scene of the crime, but to the telephone and rang Sharifuddin. What are you pulling out of your hat this time, I asked him, by threatening to reveal `all` on August 14? The press had got it wrong, he said.

When leaving a conference held on Fatima`s life and doings in Islamabad on the 21st, he was waylaid by reporters who badgered him about the old and set rumours relating to her death, and demanded that he come out with the truth. So he did - the truth to the best of his knowledge, based on what he had been told or had learnt (as he was not in Pakistan when she died).

He was told some days after her death by her nephew, Akbar Pirbai, who had arrived in Karachi from Bombay, that he was convinced that his aunt had been murdered by a disgruntled servant, that he wished to meet President Ayub Khan and request that an enquiry be held. A meeting was arranged, and Ayub Khan, sensibly, considering the bitterness that had followed and persisted after Fatima`s defeat in the 1964 elections, and considering that emotions run high in Pakistan at the slightest excuse, suggested that nothing be done.

Those who found her dead were obviously as sensible as was President Ayub Khan and wisely let it be known to the people that Fatima had died a natural death.

Sharifuddin said he would send me a report on the incident written by the then commissioner of Karachi, Syed Darbar Ali Shah, who in 1983, some sixteen years later, at Sharifuddin`s request, had put on paper his recollections of her death and funeral. He would also send an excerpt from a book. `Fatima Jinnah` written by Dr Agha Hussain Hamadani, of which the National Book Foundation has recently published the English translation. (Anyone interested who wishes to be further confused can get a copy of Darbar Ali`s note, written in typical bureaucratese, from my friend the Jadoogar, the weaver of magic spells.)

News travelled at a relaxed pace in those far off days of 1967. Darbar Ali was in his office when he was rung up by his sister, who had been rung up by Lady Sughra Hidayatullah (widow of jolly old Sir Ghulam Hussain affectionately known to his friends as `Sir Sahib`), who had been visited by Fatima`s dhobi, who had been to Mohatta Palace that morning, rung the doorbell, and had received no response. Lady H and the dhobi hurried back, she managed to get into the house, and they had found Fatima dead. Darbar Ali immediately rang the Deputy Inspector General of Police for further information, only to find that he also had not heard the news.

They both `rushed` to Mohatta Palace where they found a crowd had collected. The press was already on the scene, as were Fatima`s family doctors, Colonels Shah and Jafar. Darbar saw the body on the bed, covered by a sheet, with her face exposed. He described it: ``I found the agony of death clearly visible on the noble face. Her hair was also in disarray and her neck veins looked abnormally rigid.`` He confirmed that the pronouncement of the two doctors, highly respected and trusted, that she had died a natural death ``was a great blessing for the preservation of peace in Karachi.... Had it not been so or had any suspicion arisen about the cause of her death at the time of her funeral procession, there might have been widespread riots and unnecessary bloodshed.``

But, as wrote Darbar Ali: ``In spite of the pronouncements of the doctors, many still suspected the actual cause of her death and thought that she had either been strangulated or done to death through some violent means. Since her cook disappeared at the time of her death many accused him of the dastardly act...... Some ladies who happened to be the friends of the deceased also started a whispering campaign that they had noticed scars on her neck on closer examination. They further alleged that they had also seen marks of violence and even blood on her body.``

No enquiry was held. The mystery of the missing cook was never solved.

Hamadani, in his book, recounts : ``In the year 1971, some information about Miss Jinnah`s death surfaced. These were exposed by a team of washers of the dead body. It consisted of 67-year old Haji Kalloo and his associates. They indicated that: on her body there were a number of deep wounds; her body had numerous blows; on her neck there appeared a wound, four inches in length; her knees were also wounded; swelling was visible on her cheek; her body was cramped, having blue colour.``

Long ago, I was told by a relative (by marriage) of Jinnah`s sister Mariam Bai, who I happen to know, that on the morning of Fatima`s death Lady Hidayatullah rang his mother, and told her that there was no response when the Mohatta Palace servants rang the doorbell. Lady H said she would like to be picked up and they would together go and see what was happening. They somehow managed to get into the house, went up to the bedroom, and found what they assumed to be a sleeping Auntie Fatima. She was lying on her bed, undisturbed and peaceful, but, on closer inspection, dead. She had apparently died in her sleep.

There are the two conflicting accounts. Take your pick, as we will never know the truth, truth being foreign to the ethos of Pakistan and its handlers and mishandlers. There will be no earth shaking truthful disclosure on August 14, or on any other day, by the Jadoogar or by anyone else

PM,

It is on the record that he became an Ithna Ashari Shiite.

Also isn`t it a bit ironic that while the court is claiming that Jinnah and his sisters were sunni, his sisters had themselves signed affidavits saying that they were shiite? Isn`t that evidence enough?

-Manto

Dost-mittar#166
Some more trivia for you
First few engineering colleges in India were started to train manpower for railway and canal projects.
Thomson Engineering College in Roorkee was started in 1847 to train overseers for Ganga Canal project. Later this college became Roorkee Enginnering College, University of Roorkee and in 2001, IIT Roorkee. Engineering College at Jadavpur and at Pune are also among first few engineering colleges in India.

Harimou#155

Thnaks for the detailed reply.

``Established as College of Engineering in 1961, the Institute was later declared an Institution of National Importance under the ``Institutes of Technology (Amendment) Act, 1963`` and was renamed ``Indian Institute of Technology Delhi``.``
There was an Engineering College in Delhi even during the 50s. Some of my high school class fellows went to that College and got their degree from it. It was located at Kashmiri Gate in old Delhi.

Romair:
The knowledge of the Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is all-encompassing and second only to that of Allah`s Knowledge. Thus the Prophet taught some of this knowledge to the Companions who, because they were taught directly by the Master himself (alayhisalatusalam) had much more ilm than any latter-day alim. The Sahaba then taught the tabi`iin who taught the taba- taba`iin and so on...

Being a shepherd or a business doesn`t mean one can`t be a professional alim either! Hazrat Ibn Abbas --the Prophet`s relation, was a Companion and yet he was known as Tarjuman al Qur`an --the Exegete of the Qur`an because his knowledge of qur`anic interpretation was amongst the greatest of the Sahaba. Hazrat Ali used to sell wood in the market place to earn a living but whose knowledge of Islam is higher than his? He was a greater alim than anyone! So it is your knowledge which is faulty. Imam Abu Hanifa--one of the greatest alims of all time--a professional maulvi par excellence if you will--the Father of Fiqh--also was a succesful cloth merchant. Having a profession to earn a living and being a professional alim are not mutually exclusive. Traditionally ulama did not charge for giving lessons on Islam so they had to earn their daily bread somehow too...

Please read the following short excerpt of sayings from the Prophet alayhisalatusalam about the Qur`an again:

In the following hadiths Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an without having the necessary qualifications will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who say something as hadith without knowing it, will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an according to their own opinion will be punished in hell.`` The corrupt persons (Ahl al-bidat) who recite or quote hadiths or verses of the Qur`an in order to prove their corrupt paths are of this kind.

****
Do you have the following qualifications Romair?

Interpretation (Tafsir) should be done according to the principles of transmission (Nakl). In order to perform interpretation, one should be knowledgeable about the following fifteen kinds of knowledge (Ilm): language, dialect or words (Lugat), syntax (Nahv), grammar (Sarf), etymology (Ishtikak), meaning (Ma`ani), explanation (Bayan), ornament of speech (Badi`), reading (Kira`at), methodology of religion or bases of religion (Usul-i din), Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh), reason or cause of the revelation of the verses of the Qur`an (Asbab-i nuzul), the one which cancels a previous verse (Nasih) and canceled verse (Mansuh), methodology of Islamic jurisprudence (Usul-i fiqh), Hadith, and knowldege of spiritual heart (Ilm al-qalb.) It is not permissible (Jaiz) for one who does not know these subjects to make interpretation of the Qur`an.

****
All those you mentioned including the 4 Rightly Guided Khalifas had all this and a whole lot more we cannot even imagine!

Drat! Step away from this place for a week and see what you miss! (with apologies to temp :-) )
Manto,
Don`t worry yourself so much over Romair, although he may well be, as you say, a `counterfiet coin`. In own estimation, he`s jsut terribly disillusioned with politics, and with the slowdown in the IT sector, obviously has more time on his hands than he can spend fruitfully. But give him this much.. he, like you and I, are committed to a better, more democratic (eventually), humane Paksitan. That he does not see the dangers in what he proposes is another matter.
Shit, maybe I really was meant to be a frikkin priest or somethin`!
Romair, I thought I, and Manto, and dost, already pointed out to you why BB is about as secular as Musharaf is a democrat, yet you go on taking pot shots, as in #116, and I think somewhere earlier too. Man, you`re only losing credibility!
I think the point of the article is simple enough: For all those hoping for an end to dictatorship and the beginnings of any sort of democracy in Pakistan, BB is the logical choice, given her mass support.
I may not like the idea at the moment. I think Mushy needs to be given some more time to clean things up. Those committed democrats always arguing that democracy wasn`t given a real chance-- that time would weed out the bad apples and bring about democratic awareness -- might perhaps be so generous as to apply the same logic of `time healing` to Mushy`s regime.
Why? Well, as someone said ealier, living in Karachi at least, there are tangible signs of improved law and order, and (this IS important) of a reduction in police harrassment, since this regime took over. The anomie that preceded, what with the fascism of the MQM and other `elected` parties, was a good argument of why democracy might not be the best option at the moment. (can you spell i-n-f-r-a-s-t-r-u-c-t-u-r-e?) To those who say that those problems were temporary abberations that would iron themselves out with time through electoral rejection and awareness, I say, Tell that to the mothers who lost children in the crossfire of battles fought between democratic party street groups unable to live with the idea of sharing their power, and with the local administrations in the ir pockets.

re. ``Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, who appeared as a witness in the case, said that in 1901 Jinnah broke from the Ismaili Shia faith and became a Sunni when his sisters married Sunnis. This may have been a result of the disapprobation expressed by the Ismaili community.``
I suspect it would have been too much for the good Syed to fathom (or publicly suggest!) that Jinnah might have broken from the Ismaili Shia faith without opting for another.

Manto-
MinhajulQuran and Tahirul Qadri sound cool! Thanks for the intro.

http://www.dawn.com/2003/08/09/op.htm#2

The two-nation theory

By Kuldip Nayar


India`s partition is 56 years old. Still the controversy over the two-nation theory has not ended. Certain groups in Pakistan continue to harp on it. Maulana Fazlur Rahman, head of Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), which embraces six religious parties, has said after his successful tour of India that he believed in the two-nation theory. Which two nations is he talking about?

It is true that the founder of Pakistan, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, propagated at one time that Muslims and Hindus in the subcontinent were two separate nations. He was then advocating a state where the Muslims would be in a majority unmindful of the fact that in any scheme of things more Muslims would be left in India. That was why Maulana Abul Kalam Azad differed with Jinnah and opposed the division. However, once the Congress and the British accepted the division of India, Jinnah himself redefined nationhood. He did not base it on religion.

In his speech as the Governor-General-designate, Jinnah said: ``...you will find that in the course of time. Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state.`` What he envisaged was that the people living in Pakistan, both Muslims and Hindus, would become one nation in the same way as the Hindus and Muslims living in India would be. Religion would be a private affair, not part of the state.

There was no transfer of population in the partition formula. Hindus and Muslims were supposed to live in India and Pakistan as they did at the time of partition. It is, however, another matter that communal elements on both sides drove out the minorities, in Pakistan nearly all of them.

Some ten lakh people were killed and two crore uprooted from their country in the name of religion, Hinduism in India and Islam in Pakistan. Women and children were the worst sufferers. It was one nation when it came to barbarism.

Some quarters in Pakistan continue to sustain the old notion of two-nation theory. In this they find the justification to sustain fundamentalism. They want to keep the bogey of religion alive. This gives them a point to play with the emotions of the masses. This can delude people who want their leaders to improve their economic conditions.

It is the same convoluted thinking on religion which has made the Pakistan establishment to begin the country`s history from the day the Muslims arrived in India in the eighth century. There is no explanation of what the Moenjodaro, the Harappan and the Taxila civilizations represent. This reflected a bias against the Hindus. Students are confused. This was contrary to what Jinnah said: ``We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another.``

With that kind of history and the propaganda of fundamentalists the obsession in certain circles that India represents Hindus and Pakistan Muslims has not gone. Take the conclave of MPs from the two countries at Islamabad. The entire exercise depended on the BJP`s participation. Had it said no, there would have been no conclave. The reason was obvious. Only the presence of the BJP underlined the two-nation theory.

The Pakistan establishment is thoroughly exposed when it demands the division of Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of religion. It does not bother that such a proposal might reopen the wounds of partition and the massacre in its wake.

The three Muslim MPs in the parliamentary delegation I led to Pakistan in the middle of June gave a warning both at Lahore and Karachi that Pakistan was more ``interested`` in the eight-lakh Muslims living in Kashmir than in 14-15 crore Muslims in the rest of India. I found that the argument had shaken the people in Pakistan. The point was not lost even on religious outfits.

Though fundamentalism is still a strong force in Pakistan, yet in the same Pakistan, I heard during the tour the term ``secular Muslim.`` Even if a preponderant majority did not affix secular to their name, they believed in a liberal, open society based on Jinnah`s ideology: ``You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.``

Unfortunately, the concept of the two-nation theory, the division between Hindus and Muslims, is creeping into India`s polity. There is a deliberate plan to saffronize the society. Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani feels no hesitation in saying that the BJP has been making Hindutva a poll issue and would do the same in the next election.

The party`s obsession with communal politics is evident from the manner in which it has reacted to the decision by the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to approach the Supreme Court for the retrial of the Best Bakery case in which 14 Muslims were burnt alive. In this case, the trial court in Gujarat has exonerated the accused, the Hindus, for lack of evidence.

The BJP has dubbed the NHRC`s action ``anti-Hindu.`` The fact is that the commission has taken note of witnesses being too afraid to tell the truth. They have gone on record on this point. Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi, who is involved in what happened in the state last year, has gone a step further.

He wants the President of India to find out how many people were killed in the country during communal riots since independence and how many punished. Such a study would be welcome. But how does it lessen the crime committed in Gujarat? And how does it square with the remark that the NHRC is ``anti-Hindu?`` It reflects only the BJP`s communal bias.

The worst part is the scant respect which the BJP tends to pay to the institutions. The party`s statements on the Babri masjid are not only contradictory but ominous. It says that the temple would be built on the site where the Babri masjid stood before demolition. At the same time, it says that the dispute would be solved either through negotiations between the Hindus and Muslims or by the court verdict.

How can one trust the BJP? Today the BJP has accused the NHRC of being anti-Hindu because of its decision to approach the Supreme Court on Gujarat. Tomorrow the BJP will dub the court anti-Hindu if it decides that the masjid was not built by demolishing a Hindu temple. Already there are newspaper reports that the excavations carried out by the Archaeological Survey of India at the site under court orders have not yielded any evidence that the masjid was built after destroying a temple.

India`s ethos is pluralism. Hindus and Muslims constitute one nation. The BJP is dividing the society. It is definitely playing into the hands of those in Pakistan who have an agenda other than that of Jinnah`s. They want to pit Hindus and Muslims against each other all the time. This is their ethos. The BJP is no different from them.

The writer is a freelance columnist based in New Delhi.

Errata

That first line of the last para should read `would be a loose cannon` not `lose`

Also... my mother didn`t get to vote this year because she was working on the election day. This year she would have voted for the PPP, as opposed to in 1997 when she wanted to vote for Imran Khan surrendering to my constant propaganda in favor of the great Khan.

-Manto

``Vote for a progressive, patriotic , philanthropist who brought more glory to Pakistan than its narcicisstic military. ``

As an Imran Khan fan, I will say that yes he is patriotic, and a philanthrophist and probably brought more glory to Pakistan than anyone else. However progressive he is not.. Since PTI is a dictatorship like most political parties, PTI`s character is determined by the character of Imran Khan. Imran Khan, the Quaid of the tehreek, is anti-feudal.. not because he is a progressive urbanite.. but because beyond the veil of his Oxford education, good looks, pseudo-sophisticated dressing sense, he is a tribal at heart. Since he is a tribal , his party has a tribal character as well. Imran Khan recruited Meraj Muhammad Khan (not to be confused with Meraj Khalid) an ex PPP and Labor leader from the 1970s... yet sick of Imran`s lack of vision, Meraj Muhammad Khan left the party after writing an open letter to Imran in the press. I was one of the original tehreek-e-Insaaf supporters in 1997. I tried to convince my parents to vote for Imran Khan. My mother`s vote was disputed then... and my father voted for PPP I think. This time around I voted for PPP and my father voted for PTI (Imran Khan`s pseudo-liberal pseudo-conservative total contradiction kind of suits my father`s own temperament).

I think anyone who has heard Imran Khan speak on issues knows that if such a man was to come into power he would be a lose cannon... because IQ wise, Imran Khan doesn`t seem to be gifted much.

-Manto

echoboooom :)

Good one... made me laugh for a long time.

This article is typical of Pakistani pseudo-historians. The article makes mention of the cases Jinnah took for Muslims, and his speech on the Wakf bill. The article makes no mention of his most famous case when he defended the Hindu leader Tilak... nor does the article mention his greatest and most idealistic speech in the Indian legislative Assembly in 1931 ... which was in defence of Shaheed Bhagat Singh. As you can see Jinnah`s most important speech to the Pakistan Constituent Assembly is also missing and so are his famous words from his address to the American people (broadcast both in the US and in Pakistan): `Make No Mistake about it. Pakistan Shall not be a Theocracy to be run by priests with a divine mission.`

The article seems to be trying to prove that Jinnah studied Islam and had a close relationship with God... I can`t comment on that since I didn`t get to meet him. Unlike the author of this article I am not going to second guess History. Ok First of all Sindh Medresseh was a British High school with a British principal. Just want to get that out of the way.

Now coming to the other points:

1)`` As a part of his legal education in London for the practice of the law in multi-religious India, the young Jinnah had to study Islamic jurisprudence also.``

Not true... Lincoln`s Inn`s curriculum never included Islamic Jurisprudence. It is not an LLB degree. Jinnah didn`t have an LLB Degree. He was a simple barrister educationally. Bar doesn`t include formal law education but rather practical experience.


2) ``According to his sister, Fatima Jinnah, the teenager Jinnah touched neither ham nor bacon nor alcoholic drinks--a promise he had made to his parents before proceeding to England. The strength of his character and morals is borne out by the story narrated in ``Jinnah of Pakistan`` by Stanley Wolpert, ``


On Page 78 and 79 of Stanley Wolpert`s book we have Jinnah eating Pork. That he enjoyed strong liquor is an open secret. Before he left for Pakistan on 7th August 1947... he held a press conference where he had a glass of whisky in his hand. However the strength of character and morals is tested by other things. He held women in the greatest of respects always getting up and bowing to them. There is no scandal associated with him eventhough he was a mover and shaker in Bombay`s high society.


3) There is very little mention of Jinnah`s association with the Congress which was deep and emotional. In those days Jinnah used to contribute 1000 Rupees to the Congress Fund every month.

4) ``In the Khilafat Movement in India, between 1918 and 1922, Jinnah supported the cause of the Ottoman Empire and the preservation of the Constantinople-based Caliphate. ``

It is a known fact that Jinnah remained aloof from the issue of the Ottoman Empire and the Khilafat movement. He infact left Congress Party in protest of Gandhiji`s noncooperation movement.

5) ``Islam, he pointed out, had taught Muslism equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody.``

This was definitely Jinnah`s view, and he sought to justify the secularism of the new created homeland for Muslims on these grounds. To him secular democracy was not in conflict with the doctrine of Islam. Was he right or wrong, that is another issue.


These are only some of the points I am going to counter right now.. because I am studying for my law exams. However rest assure that the whole article is one big fat lie...

-Manto

YasserLatifHamdani

How would you analyse this excerpt from a sketch of the greatleader by qutbuddin aziz?

Others please read & give your opinion.



``The first school in Karachi to which Jinnah was admitted by his father was the Sindh Madressah which was established in Karachi in 1885 by the Sindh Mohammedan Association under the leadership of a renowned Muslim philanthropist and promoter of education for Muslims in Sindh, Hassan Ali Effendi. Before launching this school, he had visited the MAO College in Aligarh and discussed with Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Islamic teachings and reading the Quran was included in the curriculum of the Sindh Madressah and Jinnah learnt more about Islam there. During his childhood years, Jinnah went to Bombay to meet his loving auntie and uncle and stayed with them for six months. They admitted him to a school of the Anjuman-e-Islam where Islamic teachings were a part of the curriculum. Before proceeding to England in January 1893, he studied at the Church Mission school in Karachi for a few years but he continued to read about Islam. Jinnah`s marriage at the age of 16 with 14-year-old Emibhai was conducted in Paneli in Kathiawar under Muslim rites. His mother had arranged his marriage hurriedly to ensure that no English damsel in London would entice him. Before he boarded he ship at Karachi for the journey to England, he received many amulets from his family members in conformity with a Muslim tradition. Thus all through his childhood years in Karachi, Jinnah`s parents made him aware of his Muslim identity and Muslim beliefs.

During his three year`s legal education at Lincoln`s Inn in London (April 1893-July 1986), Jinnah joined his Muslim co-religionists in celebrating the Eid festival and at times visited a small mosque in East London. As a part of his legal education in London for the practice of the law in multi-religious India, the young Jinnah had to study Islamic jurisprudence also. He had learnt about Christianity at the Church Mission School in Karachi. He had Hindu and Parsi friends and took interest in knowing about their faiths. His exposure to Western education and polity in England made him liberal, broad-minded and tolerant towards the followers of other faiths. According to his sister, Fatima Jinnah, the teenager Jinnah touched neither ham nor bacon nor alcoholic drinks--a promise he had made to his parents before proceeding to England. The strength of his character and morals is borne out by the story narrated in ``Jinnah of Pakistan`` by Stanley Wolpert, the Quaid`s American biographer, that on the occasion of Jinnah`s first Christmas and New Year in London he was invited by his landlady to an evening party in their home. She had a pretty daughter who tried to become friendly with the teenage Jinnah. In the party, the damsel suggested to him that under an English custom he could kiss her under the mistletoe hung from the ceiling. Jinnah`s response was that such an act of intimate behaviour was not in conformity with the moral code in which he had been brought up in his home and that his mother and his 15-year-old wife would mind it in Karachi.

In London, the teenage Jinnah visited the British museum many a time. Of great interest to him was the section dealing with the Middle East, the Arabs, the Islamic civilization and the Indus Valley. While on way from Karachi to England by boat, Jinnah had a day`s glimpse of Egypt when it halted at Port Said on the Suez canal. The archaeological exhibits from ancient and Medieval Egypt in the British Museum interested him considerably.

When Jinnah returned to India as a barrister and enrolled as a lawyer with the Bombay high Court in August 1896, he made a deeper study of the laws in force in India, especially Muslim canonical and personal law. This was of immense help to him when he served as Presidency Magistrate in Bombay from May to November 19. Many cases that he handled involved Muslims for which a thorough knowledge of the major schools of Muslim jurisprudence was essential. In Bombay, Jinnah visited the Anjumna-e-Islamia often and donated to its funds. When he took to legal practice early in 1901, his circle of friends expanded and he had a large number of Muslims, Parsi, Hindu, Christian and European friends. He showed respect for their religious beliefs and practices.

Jinnah`s brilliant speech on Muslim Endowments (Wakful Aulad law in force in India in the Congress session in Calcutta in December 1906 was a proof of the profundity of his knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence and the holy Quran. Muslim Associations and scholars from many parts of India congratulated him on his able advocacy of the Muslim viewpoint on this issue. It is noteworthy that Jinnah won his first legislative election in 1909 from a constituency reserved for Muslims in Bombay. It was a tough election and the local Muslims would not have elected him to the Imperial Legislative Council, based in Calcutta, unless they were convinced that he was a practising Muslim, having deep knowledge of Islam and the problems of the Muslim community. In the Imperial Legislative Council, it was Jinnah`s privilege to navigate successfully his Private Member`s bill on Muslim Endowments in 1911. Under the new law for Muslim Endowments, enacted through Jinnah`s efforts, these Muslim institutions and their beneficiaries got a better deal. The speeches he made in support of his Bill in the Imperial Legislative Council got him all-India acclaim from Muslims for his mastery over the Islamic canon and Jurisprudence. Scores of Muslim organisations in India rushed him messages of congratulations and gratitude for his resounding achievement in the service of Muslims. Among them were Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani. As a Muslim legislator from Bombay, Jinnah attended many meetings organised by the Muslims organisations on the festive occasions of Eid and the Prophet`s birthday. He advocated the political, economic and educational emancipation of Muslims, particularly Muslim women.

Jinnah joined the All India Muslim League as a member in London in 1913 when it amended its constitution and included self-rule for India in its aims and objects. But he made it clear that he would continue his membership of the Congress which had joined in 1903. The Muslims of Bombay were so pleased with Jinnah`s services to the Muslims that they again voted him to the Imperial Legislative Council from Bombay`s Muslim constituency in 1916. In the Congress fold, Jinnah devotedly worked for Hindu-Muslims cooperation to achieve independence for India from British rule and he was hailed as the Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity as the architect of the famous Lucknow Pact for their cooperation in the pursuit of freedom for India.

In 1918, Jinnah consented to marry Parsi-born Ruttie Petit after she turned 18 and embraced Islam in the presence of the chief cleric of the Isna Ashri Muslims in Bombay and the Islamic name of Maryam was given to her. The next day, Jinnah married her in an Islamic wedding ceremony with Muslim scholars and his Muslim friends attending it. Among them was the elder Maharaja of Mahmudabad. In 1929, when Rutie died in Bombay, Jinnah had her burial done in a Muslim graveyard according to Muslim rites supervised by a Muslim Imam (religious scholar). He donated to Muslim and other charities in Bombay and elsehwere. On the festive occasion of Eid, his Muslim friends and constituents visited him regularly and exchanged Eid greetings. Even during his stay in London (1931-35), he used to visit a mosque in East London for the Eid prayers. According to his chauffeur during his London years, Bradbury, Jinnah was visited by many Muslim friends in his Hampstead home on the occasion of Eid and they exchanged Eid greetings. In the Khilafat Movement in India, between 1918 and 1922, Jinnah supported the cause of the Ottoman Empire and the preservation of the Constantinople-based Caliphate. As the Chairman of the company which ran a popular Bombay-based English dilly, Bombay Chronicle, he encouraged its English Editor, B G Horniman to give due coverage to their Khalifat Movement and its leaders, Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar and his elder brother, Maulana Shaukat Ali, and Gandhiji. He articulated the viewpoint of India`s Muslims against the liquidation of the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphate before a Parliamentary Committee in London in the early 1920s.

From 1935 onwards when, on his return from England, Jiunnah became the President of the All India Muslim League, he attended a large number of the meetings of Muslims and spoke on Islam, the Prophet`s life and the Muslim cause in India and abroad. In his speeches, he extolled the virtues of the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) and the universal nature of Islam`s teachings. He read more books on Islam and was influenced by Allama Iqbal`s exposition of the tenets of Islam and his call for an Islamic renaissance in his writings and inspiring poetry. Jinnah also sought advice from Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani on Islamic matters. Jinnah advocated the Muslims viewpoint in the Shaheedganj Mosque case in Lahore and the Cawnpore Mosuqe case.

In 1926, Jinnah was re-elected to India`s Central legislature from the Bombay Muslim constituency. It demonstrated the immense trust the Muslims reposed in him as a good Muslim leader.

Jinnah`s love for his only daughter, Dina, was profound. But when she decided to marry Parsi-born Neville Wadia, Jinnah said he would permit her to do so if he converted to Islam. When he did not do so and Dina married Wadia, Jinnah froze his fatherly relations with Dina.

Jinnah`s understanding of Islam was reflected in these powerful words which he spoke in his presidential address in the All India Muslim League Conference held in Karachi on December 26, 1943: ``What is it that keeps the Muslims united as one man and who is the bedrock and sheet anchor of the community? It is Islam; it is the Great Book--the Quran which is the sheet anchor of Muslims India. I am sure that as we go on and on, there will be more Oneness-One God, One Book, One Prophet and One nation ``. In his Eid-ul-Fitr message to the Muslims in September 1945, Jinnah said: ``.. Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals or ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslims society, every department of life, collectively and individually``. Addressing the All India Muslims League session in Delhi on April 24, 1943, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah said: ``.. The equality of mankind is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. In Islam, there is no difference between man and man. The qualities of equality, liberty and fraternity are the fundamental principles of Islam. . the prophet was the greatest man the world had ever seen. Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundations of democracy..`` Jinnah preached and practised tolerance towards the followers of other religions and this was amplified in his historic address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947, in Karachi. Jinnah was opposed to theocracy and sectarianism in any form.

In a broadcast to the people of the USA in February 1948, Governor-General Jinnah said that he expected Pakistan`s new constitution to be of a democratic type embodying the essential principles of Islam. Islam, he pointed out, had taught Muslism equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. His Eid-ul-Fitr message on August 18, 1947--four days after Pakistan`s birth--was addressed to the Muslims of Pakistan and also to Muslims all the world over. In this Eid message resounded Jinnah`s hope for the dawn of ``a new era of prosperity that will mark the onward march of the renaissance of Islamic culture and ideals``. On that festive day, Jinnah, dressed in a cream-coloured sherwani and wearing the Jinnah cap, offered his Eid prayers in the Eidgah maidan in Karachi and exchanged Eid greeting with a huge concourse of Muslims, thanking Allah for his gift of Pakistan. ``

Ref dost-mittar #151[harimaou#134
The Engineering College at Hauz Khas in IIT. They also have an older Engineering College in Delhi. I dont think it was built with the aid of any specific country.
P.S. Are you sure the Soviets helped build the IIT at Bombay?]

Yes, I am sure about IIT Bombay and here is the history from their webpage.

http://www.iitb.ernet.in/about/index.html

History of IIT Bombay

How was IIT Bombay set up?

A high-power committee of Govt. of India recommended in 1946 establishment of four higher institutes of technology of the level of their counterparts in Europe and United States to set the direction for the development of technical education in the country. These institutes were designed to provide the necessary dynamism and flexibility of organization in the light of expanding knowledge and changing socio-economic requirements of modern society.
Planning for the Institute at Bombay began in 1957 and the first batch of 100 students was admitted in 1958. The Institute campus at Powai extends over 200 hectares and is situated in picturesque surroundings with Vihar and Powai lakes on either sides and green hills strewn around.

In 1961, by an act of Parliament, the Institute was declared an institution of national importance and was accorded the status of a university with power to award its own degrees and diplomas.

IIT Bombay was established with the cooperation and participation of the UNESCO, utilizing the contribution of the Govt. of USSR. The Institute received substantial assistance in the form of equipment and expert services from USSR through the UNESCO from 1956 to 1973. The Institute received several experts (59) and technicians (14) from several reputed institutions in the USSR. The UNESCO also offered a number of fellowships (27) for training of Indian faculty members in the USSR.

Under the bilateral agreement of 1965, the USSR Govt. provided additional assistance to supplement the Aid Program already received by the Institute through UNESCO.

As to IIT Delhi, (http://www.iitd.ernet.in/about/index.html)

Indian Institute of Technology Delhi is one of the seven Institutes of Technology created as centres of excellence for higher training, research and development in science, engineering and technology in India, the others being at Kanpur, Kharagpur, Madras, Bombay, Guwahati and Roorkee. Established as College of Engineering in 1961, the Institute was later declared an Institution of National Importance under the ``Institutes of Technology (Amendment) Act, 1963`` and was renamed ``Indian Institute of Technology Delhi``. It was then accorded the status of a deemed university with powers to decide its own academic policy, to conduct its own examinations, and to award its own degrees.

HRH Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, laid the foundation stone of the Institute on January 27, 1959. The Institute was inaugurated by Prof.Humayun Kabir, the then Union Minister for Scientific Research and Cultural Affairs on August 21, 1961. The Institute buildings were formally opened by Dr.Zakir Hussain, the then President of India, on March 2, 1968.

Location of the Institute

IIT Delhi is situated at Hauz Khas in South Delhi, which is a landmark place in the colourful and chequered history of Delhi.

Naqshbandi: ``Should I abandon 1400 years of qualified Islamic scholarship [aka ulama] and accept your or my own views? Would you let me operate on you if I had only read a book on neurosurgery and not gone to medical school? In the same way my PhD in biomedical engineering (almost!) does not qualify me to derive rulings from the Koran sharif. That is only for the mujtahid imams and the ulama who followed them in an unbroken chain to today.``

This is, I am afraid, the biggest mistake you are making.

All I can tell you is that, in Islam, there is no concept of a professional Ulema. That is the beauty of Islam, along with its egalitarian ideas. Muhammad, Abu-Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali - none of them were professional maulvis. They were all normal working folks, like you and me. They were salesmen, shepherds, beaurecrats, soldiers, businessmen etc. If maulvis were to run the religion, then one of them would have been a maulvi. At least.

You, with a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering, and a willingness to read the Quran, are more qualified than any of the Ulema you are following. Quran is a simple book. It does not require 1400 years of scholarship. It does, howeve, require a knowledge of everyday life, which comes through Ph.Ds and such.

Anyone, who tries to own Islam, as an, ``Ulema`` is creating more problems than he is solving. They have made a joke of Islam. People are scared of them, all over the world. Even scared of the ones who are well-meaning. I have discussed issues with these types of individuals, and eventually they run out of arguments. They are building false castles on each other`s ideas, and have created a huge beaurecracy in a religion, which, by defintion is not supposed to have beaurecracy. It creates a direct connection between man and God.

All I can do is, advise you is to discover religion yourself, by relying on your own common sense, the Quran and your Ph.D degree. Had Islam been meant for Ulemas, Prophet Muhammad would not have been a shepherd and an import/export salesperson. He would have been a professional, ``Aalim.``

I have seen you argue religion with so many people on this site, and have not seen a single person be convinced by the arguments you have presented on religion. It is because you are repeating whatever an aalim has told you. You are not using your own mind. Your ideas, thus, only appeal to poeple with your last name. The true sign of an aalim is not one who can appeal to his co-followers, but someone whose arguments appeal to people who do not originally believe in what he says. This was the great quality of Prophet Muhammad. I doubt his personality fit into the mould that the current Ulema have fitted into.

These professional Ulema are going to take Islam and Islamic societies down the drain. It is sad to see that even with an Ph.D, you haven`t figured this out. People who get so addicted to Ulema, tend to go to the other extreme also. I wouldn`t be surprised, if, in fifteen years or so, you start hating religion. It has already happened to one or two individuals, on this site.

Anyways, as a fellow Muslim, I have attempted to warn and educate you. After that, it is up to you. If you want to follow people far less educated than yourself, then there is nothing much I can do about it.

Just remember, Quran was not designed for neurosurgeons. It was designed for normal everyday people.

Shankar #152: I can see how all this could be confusing to someone. I was very confusing to me also, when I was initially exposed to it. I knew PTI would not win in feudal areas, but I thought PTI would sweep the urban votes within five to six years. That never happened. Seeing a bit of politics from the inside, really opens up ones eyes. I now realize I knew very little about Pakistani politics, until experiencing it practically. Here are some answers to your questions, based on what I saw. Just my opinion:

“Mushy did all he could to keep the corrupt feudals out of the reckoning in this election. In fact, if I recall correctly, that was what you were saying before the election, for Mushy`s benefit. So, in your mind, this election was as fair as Pakistasn has had since 71.”

I was hoping he would keep the feudals out, but he didn’t. In fact, my biggest complain against Musharraf is that he didn’t go after the feudals. This has been my biggest complain against every Martial Law. This election was not fair, in its pre-election sense. A lot of parties were manipulated. It was fair on polling day, however, since there were so many international agencies monitoring it. The international agencies share my view.

I think Musharraf should have wiped out the feudals, banned them all, carried out massive land reforms, and then held elections. And then he should have left, and moved to Boston. This is what I have been saying all along. Musharraf, as a person, is completely unknown to me. I am just interested in what he does. I could care less whether he is from the Army or from the BJP. I support him over Maulana Fazl, Benazir, Nawaz, Altaf etc. However, I do not support him over Imran Khan, Omer Asghar Khan, etc. and even over a few of the members of PPP and PML. Currently, the second group has zero chance of coming into power, and I am afraid if the first group comes into power, it will destroy Pakistan, like it did before.

“I`m a little mystified why you felt ``energised`` after the election results.”

Your feeling is quite incorrect. How could I feel energised when the party I support, from a distance, and my family supports actively, only won one seat. I was hoping PTI would sweep Lahore. Even Imran Khan lost there. Also, I am not energised, because I do not support the success of MMA in two provinces. Though I think they deserve to rule, since they were voted in fairly. Most of all, I do not support the victories of the same feudals of PPP and PML again.

I think Musharraf handled the referendum and elections poorly. I am not saying this, because PTI lost. I am saying this, because the same crowd is back in politics again.

“because of the mindset of the average Pakistani voter (urban or rural) is so resigned, frustrated & helpless (because of an authoritarian, corrupt, rigid, jury-rigged system of governance) that they just vote for their immediate ``benefit``....or ..whats the phrase?...immediate ``sense of security``.”

You have hit the nail on its head. This is exactly the problem. This is also why people in Pakistan don’t shed a tear when Martial Law is implemented. This is also why they get frustrated of the same Martial Law, within a few years. And then of democracy a few years later.

“Ergo, the ``genious`` & ``system`` of Pakistan is not suited to democracy. The only choice is that a paternalistic, super-patriotic, heroic institution such as the Pakistani military is suited to oversee the governing of your country.”

This is not correct either. Pakistanis love politics and democracy. They discuss it so much that Pakistani hotels and buses have specific signs stating, “Please do not discuss too much politics.” The Army is not the answer. I say this, not because I hate the Army, or love it, but, because I have seen it from the inside. It can, at best be the answer for a brief two to three years.

However, the current lot of feudal politicians is not the answer either. Look at what Benazir has done, yet the feudals will still vote her the head of her party. MMA is not the answer, either. People like Imran Khan are the answer. Or people like Asghar Khan or his late son. People like Zubaida Jalal and Maleeha Lodhi and Shaukut Aziz and Aitezaz Ahsan and Meraj Khalid and Abdus Sattar Edhi are the answer. These people are close to the top, however, these people can never get the very top job in Pakistan, until the feudals are kicked out. Once these people get the top job, then the army will never be supported by Pakistanis in politics. I doubt any Army general would ever have a successful coup, if Imran Khan type people are Prime Minister. The population would not support the army coup, against credible well-performing leaders.

Musharraf, is a short term answer, but not a long term answer, either.

“Rural people may be illiterate & naieve--but they are`nt stupid. If they feel the zamindar & his family are oppressing them, & the sahibs & memsahibs are living the life of the idle rich it stands to reason that they WONT vote for them. How can muslims, literate or illeterate, in all conscience vote for the local ``prince`` if the latter is so cutoff from them?...ESP in an egalitarian society? “

Have you seen the movie Mother India with Nargis and Sunil Dutt? Did you see how their lives are controlled by the powerful landlord system. They aren’t stupid, but there is nothing they can do. One has to live in those areas to understand the situation. Recently, a feudal authorized the gang rape of a lady through his own judicial system. Had the press not picked up on it, there would have been nothing the lady could have done. She is not stupid. She is just powerless. How hard would it be to get her to vote one way or the other. The feudals have owned their land and the people on it, for generations. In areas like Baluchistan, the literacy rate for women is 3.7%. In rural Sind, it isn’t much higher. You should meet the haris and mazaras in these places. It is basically slave labor. You should see the feudal families of some of the Chowk interactors, who make eloquent arguments on human rights, in action in their feudal lands.

I spent around two to three years in feudal Southern Punjab. And I saw how people there were treated. I cannot believe any beaurecrat, any factory owner, any Army general, any MMA leader ever being able to treat a human being so pathetically.

This is different from, lets say, my village in Kashmir, which is non-feudal. It is rural, but with no big feudal owning excessive land. Over there, everyone votes as they like. And the candidates are answerable to the voters. Since they don’t own the voters’ land. That village has no politician who is known in Pakistan, yet it is decades ahead of the feudal villages in Punjab that I have seen, which produce all the powerful political leaders of Pakistan.

I think if elections are allowed to continue in Pakistan, the urban population will get out of the, “security” mentality, will develop faith in elections, and will vote for good people (once they know that elections will be held again and again). And PTI type parties will win more.

However, I just cannot see how things will change in feudal areas. And feudals still control 66% of the votes. So, urban parties will always be a minority. Why do you think these feudals are so addicted to elections and politics. If elections were going to remove them, they would be the first to oppose elections. Yet the leading, “fighters for democracy” in Pakistan are all feudals, like Benazir and Amin Fahim etc. Why? Because, they know that the current election system is the best way for them to ensure that they make all the laws, and thus do not allow anyone to finish off their feudalism. It is a Catch-22 situation. To get rid of feudalism, the current electoral system needs to change. To change the current electoral system, you need to get rid of feudals.

However, once the feudals are gone, the Army will never be able to step in.

What is the solution? Massive land reforms. And the rejection of the feudal as the face of progressive secularism in Pakistan, by educated Pakistanis. Feudals are only secularists on the face of it. The only two groups I can think of who can get rid of feudalism are the Army and the maulvis. The Army, for some reason, has always joined the feudals (Gohar Ayub, Ejaz-ul-Haq), rather then eliminating them. And has thus created furthur problems.

The maulvis have had success in removing them in NWFP and Baluchistan. The maulvis maybe able to remove them, in other areas, because they point to the only source which voters in feudal areas consider their hope against the powerful feudal, i.e. God. However, maulvis, as we know have their own issues, like living in the 8th century. So it is a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation.

Romair: I was in the states when Miyanji won in 1996 or was it 1997. My friends, all urban, were hardcore IJI supporters. They said Imran Khan is a ``gora`` guess its not just the feudals who have it in for him..

Romair,
#116

Jeeze, your reasons why Imran didnt win; if I understand you correctly, is because of the mindset of the average Pakistani voter (urban or rural) is so resigned, frustrated & helpless (because of an authoritarian, corrupt, rigid, jury-rigged system of governance) that they just vote for their immediate ``benefit``....or ..whats the phrase?...immediate ``sense of security``.

Ergo, the ``genious`` & ``system`` of Pakistan is not suited to democracy. The only choice is that a paternalistic, super-patriotic, heroic institution such as the Pakistani military is suited to oversee the governing of your country.

The shrink in me is trying to decipher your logic & get to the jist of what you are trying to say...so I can very well misunderstand you.

{{The people in feudal areas, do know what is best for them, however, their hands are tied, since they owe their livelihood to the feudal boss. So they, by force, have to vote for one feudal or the other.}}

I think you are giving human beings very little credit. Rural people may be illiterate & naieve--but they are`nt stupid. If they feel the zamindar & his family are oppressing them, & the sahibs & memsahibs are living the life of the idle rich

---

it stands to reason that they WONT vote for them. How can muslims, literate or illeterate, in all conscience vote for the local ``prince`` if the latter is so cutoff from them?...ESP in an egalitarian society?

I mean...is the Pakistan rural voter made to believe there is a hidden camera in the polling booth & that his/her vote isnt anonymous?...
or is the voting system so corrupt that no matter who the villagers vote for, the feudal wins in the final tally?
or are they so brainwashed into believing that if the feudal loses they will be out of a job?

{{Pakistanis city voters, currently, have no faith in the system. They vote more to protect themselves, then for progress. In essence, it is like the Chicago mafia stories. Everyone needs a powerful thug to protect him against the other party’s powerful thug. If you candidate is not a powerful thug, regardless of how good he maybe, he cannot win. Because, voters know he cannot protect them from the thugs they need protection from. Hence they will not vote for him, even if he is Gandhi.

This is a Catch-22. Once voters feel your guy cannot get elected, they will not vote for him, even furthur, even if they know he is the best candidate. They do not want to end up in the bad books of the thug who does get elected. Why support a guy who cannot get into power, and make enemies for one’s self. Why not create a powerful ally, who can protect you from other powerful people?}}

In Chicago, if Al Cappone was running elections & it was free & fair, he would`nt have won.
What youre trying to say is that the only ``benefit`` that an urban Pakistani voter sees in the election system is to elected their own personal ``godfather``--who ``protects`` their security (while corruptly shaking them down at the same time).

What your saying goes against the instincts of human nature...
Pakistanis are intelligent human beings & theyre NOT from the planet Klingon!:)

The only moral of the story I get from Imran`s personal & party defeat is:
The Pakistani awam was given 3 choices:
1) Vote for King`s party (ergo endorse the army line)
2) Vote for fundos
3) Vote for a progressive, patriotic , philanthropist who brought more glory to Pakistan than its narcicisstic military.

Mushy did all he could to keep the corrupt feudals out of the reckoning in this election. In fact, if I recall correctly, that was what you were saying before the election, for Mushy`s benefit. So, in your mind, this election was as fair as Pakistasn has had since 71.

I`m a little mystified why you felt ``energised`` after the election results.
The one hope Pakistan had to get a progressive leader at the helm....
& the awam chose (2)-(1) & then (3)...in that order...

In fact, I think (3) lost very badly.
Dont ``blame`` the system now; blame the voter

harimaou#134
The Engineering College at Hauz Khas in IIT. They also have an older Engineering College in Delhi. I dont think it was built with the aid of any specific country.
P.S. Are you sure the Soviets helped build the IIT at Bombay?

Naqshbandi

``but since anyone would be better for india`s muslims --who are our brothers--than the bjp i will be happier if sonia wins than if the bjp win``

BJP doesn`t believe in using lovey dovey slogans to win over Muslims. Let us not forget that it is a BJP government which has chosen a Muslim head of the state. Yet your own biases against the Hindus leads you make such fallacious statements. I would rather be a Muslim under the rule of the BJP, then be a christian or a hindu or even a Muslim under the rule of the MMA. So what about our brothers in Pakistan who are not Muslim... who is going to care about them?


-Manto

I think the issue of Jinnah`s personal faith which is a stupid issue anyway should be closed once and for all with this following excerpt from the rediff article:

``After Jinnah`s death in September 1948, his sister Fatima and then prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan had jointly filed a petition in the Karachi high court describing Jinnah as a ``Shia Khoja Mohammedan`` and sought that his will may be executed under the Shia inheritance law. Again, when Fatima died in 1967, another sister Shirin Bai claimed her property under the Shia law.``


After that there is no need for any court decisions.

Errata

By Islamist counterparts I mean his MMA counterparts.

The debate on Jinnah`s personal faith,

The debate on Jinnah`s personal faith is stupid and pointless but the matter can be irrevocably decided by reading the Jinnah papers especially the reference I made last. It is also recognized that conversion that took place in 1901 was to Ithna Ashari shia Islam from Ismaili Islam and not to sunnism. This is well documented.

The article that you have quoted proves so well how Pakistanis will stop at nothing to distort history .... For God`s sake man, according to the article both Fatima Jinnah and Shirin Jinnah are claiming to be shiites and claiming that their brother is shiite, but it seems that the court is hell bent on making something else out of him. So in 1948 Fatima Jinnah inherits property under Shiite Khoja Ismaili law.. And in 1967 the other sister Shirin Jinnah inherits that property under the same law... yet in 1970 some idiot gets up and declares that Jinnah was sunni and not only that both his sisters were sunni, they were just pretending to be shia in public. In 1976 the court decided Jinnah was a shia. In 1984, a court operating under Zia`s Martial Law, declares that no Jinnah was not a shia. Can you see how stupid that sounds? A court deciding the religion and the faith of the Jinnah family once all members have passed away?

Who are you going to believe? This is very flimsy dude... very flimsy, and that is why I suspect Rediff published it... to show us Pakistanis how stupid and idiotic we are trying to change even the faith of the founder of the nation so that he is in line with our narrowminded ideals.

It goes without saying that the nazaria pakistan foundation also has functions on the life of Mariam Jinnah the ideal muslim woman of great Islamic character. I realized after long thought that Mariam is the elegant sophisticated and westernized Ruttie. Sure I think Ruttie is a great role model for Muslim Women. I definitely would like to see more Muslim women dress as elegantly in low cut dresses as Ruttie did.


-Manto

Naqshbandi,

Having seen MinhajulQuran up close and the ideology of Professor TahirulQadri ... I can say that while the Aqida might be same, TahirulQadri`s political ideology is total contrast to Noorani... for the record I don`t think the Professor is the best choice for the leadership of the country, nor am I even saying that I would want him to become the PM, but I think a man like him deserves to be in the assembly.

TahirulQadri is an Islamist ... nowhere have I suggested that he is or the MinhajulQuran is secular. Yes he speaks of a mustafvi inquilab, but let us also not forget his stance on issues:

1) He doesnt want to impose a selective version of Islam on anyone.

2) His views on women`s participation are way more advanced than his other Islamist counterparts.

3) He has taken a progressive stance on all issues, especially birth control and population control despite opposition from other mullahs.

4) His election campaign made little or no reference to the religious agenda. His platform was entirely political.

5) He doesn`t consider Shiites Kafir or fasiq. He considers them equal muslims of a different point of view.

6) He has been a major force in supporting a Muslim-christian solidarity forum. He regularly attends meetings of Pakistani christian community and attends their religious functions as well.

7) His MinhajulQuran is a freethinking institute which is instilling rational thought amongst the religious.

-Manto

manto--i am not pinning any hopes on sonia..i just asked a general q to harimau but since anyone would be better for india`s muslims --who are our brothers--than the bjp i will be happier if sonia wins than if the bjp win...this is not an endorsement of secularism. i will support any1 who will treat the muslims of india best..

**

as for jinnah`s being a sunni or shia..

:

Was Jinnah a Shia or Sunni?
Which sect of Islam did Mohammad Ali Jinnah belong to, Shia or Sunni?

Though it is commonly believed he was a Shia, Khaled Akhtar, a Communist, has evidence that the Quaid-e-Azam converted and became a Sunni later.

After Jinnah`s death in September 1948, his sister Fatima and then prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan had jointly filed a petition in the Karachi high court describing Jinnah as a ``Shia Khoja Mohammedan`` and sought that his will may be executed under the Shia inheritance law. Again, when Fatima died in 1967, another sister Shirin Bai claimed her property under the Shia law.

But this claim was contested in 1970 by Hussain Ali Ganji Walji in the high court. He maintained that both Jinnah and his sister were Sunnis and hence the property be disposed of in accordance with the Sunni inheritance law.

Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, who appeared as a witness in the case, said that in 1901 Jinnah broke from the Ismaili Shia faith and became a Sunni when his sisters married Sunnis. This may have been a result of the disapprobation expressed by the Ismaili community.

In February 1970, the court rejected the joint affidavit of Fatima Jinnah and Liaquat Ali Khan which claimed Jinnah was a Shia. By then Fatima Jinnah had already died.

But in December 1976, the court rejected Ganji Walji`s plea against Shirin Bai`s claim on Fatima`s property under the Shia law. Which effectively meant the court had accepted the Jinnah family as Shia.

A high court bench reversed this verdict in December 1984. Now the court maintained that ``while the Quaid (Jinnah) was definitely not a Shia, the issue whether Fatima Jinnah was a Shia or not was also now open to for further inquiry``. Which suggested that Jinnah was a Sunni.

In the 1965 presidential election, Fatima Jinnah, who was pitted against President Ayub Khan, used the Shia card in Shia majority areas.

UNI

from http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/may/09jinnah.htm

manto==my comment about benazir becoming a good sunni perhaps by reading tahir ul qadri sahib`s books was made half in jest as i am convinced that she has only joined minhaj ul quran as a political stunt...

**

btw i have no problems with Minhaj ul Quran people--some of them are good friends of mine and in aqida the Minhajis as well as Prof. Tahir ul Qadri himself are all ``Barelvis`` (ie Sunnis). The aqida of Prof Sahib and Mawlana Noorani sahib is exactly the same. Their political positions are slightly different with the Prof being more flexible in his principles to get into power whereas Noorani sahib is more principled hence my preference for him but i would have no problems with prof. qadri or someone from his MuQ becoming PM of pakistan. btw the MuQ are Sunnis and not secularists by any stretch of the imagination. The prof is on record as saying that he wants a ``Mustafawi Inqilab`` in Pakistan.

``So I will keep to my Imam Ghazzali etc. thank you very much! :-) My eternity depends on it.``

Ah... so by condemning Ghazzali and the damage and harm he brought upon the Muslim thought with his rigid fixed and non-ijtehadi interpretation of Islam, we become kafirs eh?

-Manto

Naqshbandi

ah... pinning your hopes on a `kafir` Hindu-christian woman to save your muslim brethren in India ? Amazing how the anti-secularism religious lobbyists of Pakistan become perfectly secular in an Indian context.

-Manto

Romair bhai--thanks but no thanks (though it`d be a pleasure to meet you I think I`ll skip your Qur`an interpretations thanks.)

Should I abandon 1400 years of qualified Islamic scholarship [aka ulama] and accept your or my own views? Would you let me operate on you if I had only read a book on neurosurgery and not gone to medical school? In the same way my PhD in biomedical engineering (almost!) does not qualify me to derive rulings from the Koran sharif. That is only for the mujtahid imams and the ulama who followed them in an unbroken chain to today.

So I will keep to my Imam Ghazzali etc. thank you very much! :-) My eternity depends on it.

As a friend I will encourage you to read the following extract please about interpreting the Quran Sharif:-

***
``Tafsir`` means informing and discovering. It is the process of informing and explaining. ``Tawil`` means pulling back or escaping. ``Tafsir `` comes to mean giving a meaning. ``Tawil`` is selection of one of the meaning among many meanings. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to make ``Tafsir`` according to one`s own opinion. ``Tafsir`` is performed according to the rules of transmission (``Riwayat`` or ``Nakl``). On the other hand, ``Tawil`` is done according to one`s knowledge and capabilities. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``A person who interprets the Qur`an according to his own opinion is in clear error even if he is right.`` It is not correct to say such and such is the meaning of the speech (Kalam) of Allahu ta`ala without investigating first whether that such and such is in any way commented by Rasulullah, peace be upon him, or by his companions or that whether it conforms to the interpretations (Tafsirs) of the previous scholars or to the methodology of the knowledge of interpretation, or without knowing the Arabic language that was spoken at the time of Rasulullah, peace be upon him, i.e., the ``Quraish`` dialect, or without thinking about reality (Haqiqat) and metaphoric (Majaz) aspects of it, or without being able to differentiate whether it is general, personal, concise (Mujmal), or detailed (Mufassal), and without investigating the reason of why that such and such verse (Ayat) was revealed, or whether it is ``Nasih`` or ``Mansuh.`` ``Tafsir`` means one`s being able to understand from the sayings of Allahu ta`ala what Allahu ta`ala meant with that saying. Even if one`s interpretation according to his own opinion is correct, since it is not derived by following the proper methodology, it is a mistake. If one`s interpretation according to his own opinion is not correct then, it would cause disbelief. Similarly, transmitting hadiths without knowing whether they are correct (Sahih) or corrupt, whether it be they are correct (Sahih) or not, would be a sin. It is not permissible (Jaiz) for such a person to read hadiths. It is necessary to get a diploma (Ijazat) from hadith scholars in order to make hadith-transmission from the hadith books. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``A person who invents a phrase and says that it is hadith, will be punished in hell.`` It is permissible (Jaiz) for those who do not have diplomas (Ijazat) from the interpretation (Tafsir) scholars to talk or write about verses of the Qur`an by looking at the interpretation books written by interpretation scholars. The people who possess above written conditions can make transmission (Nakl) of interpretation and hadith without having a written diploma. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to receive money in order to give diplomas. It is necessary (Wajib) to give the diploma to a person who demonstrates the necessary qualifications. It is forbidden to give the diploma to those who do not possess the necessary qualifications.



In the following hadiths Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an without having the necessary qualifications will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who say something as hadith without knowing it, will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an according to their own opinion will be punished in hell.`` The corrupt persons (Ahl al-bidat) who recite or quote hadiths or verses of the Qur`an in order to prove their corrupt paths are of this kind.

****
Interpretation (Tafsir) should be done according to the principles of transmission (Nakl). In order to perform interpretation, one should be knowledgeable about the following fifteen kinds of knowledge (Ilm): language, dialect or words (Lugat), syntax (Nahv), grammar (Sarf), etymology (Ishtikak), meaning (Ma`ani), explanation (Bayan), ornament of speech (Badi`), reading (Kira`at), methodology of religion or bases of religion (Usul-i din), Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh), reason or cause of the revelation of the verses of the Qur`an (Asbab-i nuzul), the one which cancels a previous verse (Nasih) and canceled verse (Mansuh), methodology of Islamic jurisprudence (Usul-i fiqh), Hadith, and knowldege of spiritual heart (Ilm al-qalb.) It is not permissible (Jaiz) for one who does not know these subjects to make interpretation of the Qur`an. The knowledge of spiritual heart (Qalb)`` or ``Mawhiba`` is a kind of knowledge which Allahu ta`ala sends without an intermediary to pious scholars who follow Islam minutely. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``Allahu ta`ala teaches the secret things if one practices the things one knows.`` It is not permissible (Jaiz) for anyone who does not know above-mentioned fifteen subjects to make interpretation. If one performs interpretation without knowing them then one will be doing it according to one`s own opinion and will be deserving to be punished in hell. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``A person`s heart will be filled with wisdom (Hikmat) by Allahu ta`ala and he will start to tell them if he practices Islam with sincerity `Ikhlas` for forty days.`` Anyone who gives meanings to the metaphoric (Mutashabih) verses of the Qur`an will be considered as one of those who performed interpretation according to his own opinion. The interpretation of corrupt persons (Ahl al-bidat) who deviated from the right path is of this kind.



There are three types of knowledge (Ilm) in the Qur`an. Allahu ta`ala did not inform anyone about the first type. The reality of His Person (Zat) and His attributes and telling about unknown are in this category. The second type is the secret knowledge He revealed to His prophets. Prophets may reveal these to those whom Allahu ta`ala chooses. He taught the third type of knowledge to His prophets, peace be upon them, and ordered them to teach this knowledge to all of their followers (Ummat). The third type is also divided into two sections. The first one is learned only by hearing. Knowledge about the Doomsday (Qiyamat) is of this kind. The second one is learned by observing, examining, reading and understanding its meaning. Knowledge which pertains to belief and Islam is in this category. Even, ``Mujtahid`` Imams could not be able to understand with certainty Islamic knowledge which are not informed through the ``Nass`` clearly and had different opinions. Thus, various schools of thought (Madhhabs) came into being with respect to practice (Amal). The activity of those who derive meanings by following the fifteen subjects mentioned above is not called interpretation (Tafsir) but instead it is called ``Tawil`` because, these meanings include his own understanding. In other words, he selects one among the many meanings that are apparent to him. If the one he selects does not conform to the literal and clear meanings of the verses of the Qur`an and hadiths or to the unanimity (Ijma), then, it is invalid (Fasid).

(from http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Ethics_of_Islam/e1-33.html)

harimau,

what are the chances of sonia or her daughter priyanka winning the next general election from the BJP?

Last post was addressed to both Romair and Naqshbandi

Romair seems to be going on and on about Benazir ... once again he has totally missed the point... it is not Benazir alone we are talking about. We are saying that a Corrupt Political civilian leader is better than the best and the most honest of the Military dictators. That is a principle we hold sacred ... The best of the Military dictatorships (brought to power at the barrel of a gun) is worse than the worst of Civilian Democracies. This is exactly what the Turks told Musharraf when he shamelessly toured Turkey so soon after the coup (After all Ataturk had made a point out of resigning his commission and taking off his uniform before presenting himself before the Grand National assembly for election as the president. Yes he was a dictator but a civilian one with the express confidence of the people.)


``Also if he had been a Shia at that time then the Barelvi ulama and mashaikh would not have supported him like they did``

We have not established one that all Barelvis supported Jinnah. (Remind us also which tariqah of Muslims it was who universally declared the other `fasiq` Kemal Ataturk to be the `Saif-ul-Islam` and Ghazi? Was it because Ataturk was a good sunni Muslim?)

Secondly it seems that you are admitting that Barelvi ulema are inherently bigoted and fanatical. I admit that Barelvis are better than Deobandis but in the end there is little difference between the fanatics of deoband and people like Maulana Noorani. Naqshbandi seems to think that Jinnah converted to sunnism by the time he died. It is amazing that his sister claimed his property declaring him to be a `Ismaili Shiite Mohammaden`. The only claim of conversion that seems to be accurate is that Jinnah had become a ithna Ashari shiite in the late 1910s. When Jinnah was asked what kind of a Muslim he was, he replied `I am in a dilemma, if only these maulvis could tell me what kind of a Muslim the Prophet was`... implying that he didn`t believe in sects. In his private life Jinnah remained a shia and became increasingly a religious shia in the later part of his life. Infact he cancelled one of this meetings with Gandhiji on 21st Ramadan because of the day of Ali`s Martyrdom citing the observance of personal religious beliefs. You find references to his personal religious affiliation to Shiite Islam in the Jinnah papers.

Naqshbandi also seems to think that the corrupt Benazir would be angel once she converts to Tahir ul Qadri`s tariqah, though I admit Tahir ul Qadri is one religious leader I would vote for if I was there. But here is the thing, I have met people from Minhaj ul Quran University ... I have a very good friend who teaches Islamic studies there... and I have always found him to be very logical and progressive in his approach, unlike Naqshbandi who seems to be caught up in his little world. Yet atleast Naqshbandi has the courtesy to answer the questions posed to him.. quite the different matter that I don`t agree with him. Goes a long way to confirm my thesis that it is not the religious extremists that are the problem, it is people like Romair who neither here nor there, naa wo he-on mein hain naa she-on...

As usual Romair has avoided all the questions. As usual he seems to be caught up in his little world where the order is about to collapse and replaced by perpetual conflict between the `secular extremists` and the `religious extremists`...

Koi Bhee soch unki Apni nahi
Rahtein hain Janat mein wo ahmakon ki



Nasah,

:)

Inshallah

-Manto

Ref khamkhwa. #113

[...what is the number of nuclear bombs of india and pakistan....and the cost factor for the development of the same please...any body?]

Don`t be lazy. Google for `High Energy Weapons` or `Nuclear Non-Proliferation`, follow a few of the hundred or so sites listed as links and find guesstimates on the number of nukes India and Pakistan possess.

Nobody has a guess on what these cost. However, it is well-known that India had had an active civilian (meaning, power-generation) nuclear program for decades and most of the cost is borne by the civilian aspects. The number of scientists/facilities for design, development and fabrication of nukes is probably a small part of the scientists` daily work.

Do the work and post the results for others to see.

Ref ali87 #6

[wow you pakistanis are real short of options!!

Imagine Benzair the saviour!!!

Im speechless.]

Not too shabby considering that we in India have Sonia Gandhi for the Congresswallahs to suck up to.

First rule of debate: if you are a pot, don`t call the kettle black.

``Footnote: Long Live a Secular Democratic Pakistan ``(YLH)

why footnote -- why not a headline

Bravo -- murhaba -- tum salamat rahohazar burus -- gurche -- baree dair kee meherbaan aate aate -- anyway welcome and -- thanks for dumping the Islamic part --

Hamdani WILL one day BE -- the first Prime Minister of a ``Secular Democratic Pakistan`` -- I hope in my life time......

FerozK:

Yeah, I`m done regurgitating the same old stuff I had to say over again :)
When I`m in Lahore, we`ll have a chowkie get together and can continue with bits and pieces of this discussion.

Thanks for the info on east asian economies.

``Even a pious Shia cannot be a leader of Muslims acceptable to the Ahle Sunnat.`` (NAQSHBANDI)

it appears that -- SOMETHING IS BASICALLY WRONG WITH YOU `SUFI` MIAN -- can you tell us what it is?

Lets hope she becomes a practising Sunni Muslim by listening to the Professor`s lectures and taqreers and reading his books!

Naqshbandi: ``You see in Shariah, if a person has a clean shaven face that is a sin and a person who sins openly is termed a fasiq.``

``As for the general question-can a Shia and a fasiq be a leader of Muslims--then in the opinion of the Ahle Sunnat ulama the answer is obviously no. Even a pious Shia cannot be a leader of Muslims acceptable to the Ahle Sunnat. ``

I am afraid you have a lot to learn about Islam. I think all your Ulema have greatly misguided you. It is these Ulema`s and their followers who have ruined Islam, and have made it such an easy target for everyone. This is probably why Islam has never supported professional maulvis in positions of power.

If we ever get a chance to meet, I will give you my interpretation of the Quran, ayat by ayat.

In the meanwhile, I would suggest you stop following these Ulema. These aalims have made something very simple into something very complex, primarily, to solidify their own position. Change your name back to Asif (whatever it was at birth, unless it was Naqshbandi to begin with). And start studying the Quran yourself, without the influence of any Aalim. Just through discussions with normal everyday non-Ulema folks, like myself.

Otherwise, you will never be able to get out of the narrow-minded tunnel you are currently caught in. The Ulema will never point this out to you. I doubt your religious views will never appeal to anyone who doesn`t have the last name Naqshbandi. And you will waste your education that you are getting in England.

I say this as a well-wisher. Pakistan needs educated people studying religion. Since it has unfortuantely been discarded by educated Muslims, and is the domain of uneducated people. You have the privelage of getting an excellent education, and you have the motivation of studying religion. It is sad to see you waste all your efforts at the doorsteps of all these Ulema, who are actually less educated than you.

P.S. People without beards are sinners, from one side.......Corrupt money laundering thieves are the next Fatimah Jinnah, from the other side......Dear God, what have Pakistanis turned into...........

baaziichaa-e-atfaal hai duniyaa mere aage
hotaa hai shab-o-roz tamaashaa mere aage

Ref arjun_m #118

[The anti-US commie Nehru got the IITs built with help from the US. Zia accepted madrassahs in Pakiland in exchange for the F-16s. Ironic, isn`t it?]

MIT and Stanford aren`t everything in the world. And no, the US did NOT build all the IITs in India.

The first IIT